Catalyst Quick vs DPS build fix idea

[kapenike.6793]

@anet Cata quick change idea. Make air jade sphere by default give fury as a boon, increase fire jade might output, remove Spectacular Sphere trait entirely and replace with a trait that gives quickness when you grant an aura. This would require Cata to run water trait line to give quickness and puts a barrier between raw dps and quickness classes other than just boon duration. It also stays more in tune with how Ele boons have always worked. If needed, reduce aura share to 4 people. It's the only source of  "6" man boons that I know of. But then again I've taken a hiatus in protest of ruining my favorite class so I'm not sure if there are more sources of +5 boons anymore

[Coldtart.4785]

Really if they wanted ele to have a boon support build for pve they should've found a way to use tempest for it while coming up with a cohesive design for catalyst. Or at the very least if they were dead set on catalyst being a hodge-podge of random skills and traits with a conveniently placed source of perma quickness they could've at least made it overpowered and easy to play so we wouldn't pay attention to the bad design. It worked for renegade after all!

[Serephen.3420]

I feel that would make it real clunky in my opinion. I think swapping the fury and Quickness around in the master trait though could work well. Though I can understand you not wanting to rely on the sphere to keep quickness up 🤔

[Coldtart.4785]

Another alternative to forcing quickness on ele would be to simply allow chrono and specter to have quickness and alacrity at the same time. That way either tempest or druid could be the counterpart since each is able to handle might and fury. The idea that quickness and alacrity shouldn't be paired on the same build is flawed because:

1. If you will be getting all four essential dps boons from two boon builds no matter what, it shouldn't matter who gives what boon.

2. The combined value of quickness and alacrity must fall somewhere between a 25%-50% dps increase, likely closer to 25% due to the majority of dps being contributed by cooldown locked skills, while might and fury can combine to around a 40%-45% dps increase, therefore-

3. Firebrand is already leaps and bounds ahead of any theoretical quickness and alacrity build by being able to provide might, fury and quickness all at once. How convenient that one of Anet's standards benefits guardians above all other classes!

[kapenike.6793]

13 hours ago, Serephen.3420 said:

I feel that would make it real clunky in my opinion. I think swapping the fury and Quickness around in the master trait though could work well. Though I can understand you not wanting to rely on the sphere to keep quickness up 🤔

I don't know if swapping from pulse to just on cast with Spectacular Sphere would fix it either 😔 the whole reason they're having balance issues is because the quickness is on demand for any Catalyst, even dps. Most classes have to change the build around to provide quickness while losing dps traits. Because of the way Catalyst traits work the only factor is boon duration, not build. Thats just setup for failure

[kapenike.6793]

14 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Really if they wanted ele to have a boon support build for pve they should've found a way to use tempest for it while coming up with a cohesive design for catalyst. Or at the very least if they were dead set on catalyst being a hodge-podge of random skills and traits with a conveniently placed source of perma quickness they could've at least made it overpowered and easy to play so we wouldn't pay attention to the bad design. It worked for renegade after all!

Tempest had the highest heal output possible in the game with all support boons, if you gave it quickness we would probably go from 1% ele players to 10% in a week lol. Pre EOD main healers didn't have access to quickness ... Except sort of scrapper but calling that a main heal is a long shot

[Serephen.3420]

4 minutes ago, kapenike.6793 said:

I don't know if swapping from pulse to just on cast with Spectacular Sphere would fix it either 😔 the whole reason they're having balance issues is because the quickness is on demand for any Catalyst, even dps. Most classes have to change the build around to provide quickness while losing dps traits. Because of the way Catalyst traits work the only factor is boon duration, not build. Thats just setup for failure

They would lose the damage bonuses on auras by having to choose that trait, so that would already be a trade off. Other quickness classes have other benefits cata does not, quickbrand having stab and agesis for example. 

[kapenike.6793]

10 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

They would lose the damage bonuses on auras by having to choose that trait, so that would already be a trade off. Other quickness classes have other benefits cata does not, quickbrand having stab and agesis for example. 

 

Yeah but thats only 10% dps loss. To keep balance happy im not sure it's enough. That 10% loss and requiring aura share water trait is a hit to running fire trait line and would require a combo heavy rotation vs hitting all the dps buttons. I just want Catalyst to have good dps, but suffer dps to provide quickness and still be able to reliably provide quickness. I love the jade sphere mech but it shouldn't be the source of quickness imo

[lLobo.7960]

I don't like the idea much, mostly because I think aurashare should be a tempest trait, and heal on auras should be a water trait. This makes more sense and would let other ele specs use auras for healing, while letting tempest be an offensive boon support (with air/fire or fire/earth).

 

I do agree however, that the orb providing group wide boons by default it a bit too much, and allows for stacking dps catalyst for dps and boons without any drawbacks. 

 

IMO, have the Jade sphere have two states: active and passive. 

In passive state, it floats near the catalyst (as the scraper function gyro) and provides 1 boon every time it gains 2 energy (2 seconds ICD). Boon is to the catalyst only and based on attunement. The sphere passive boon changes with the catalyst attunment.
This way, catalyst can have some sustain and boons on its own. As the boons are tied to the attunement and with a 2s ICD a catalyst solo cannot maintain perma quickness without 100% boon duration, camping air, and/or further trait investment. In Passive state, the catalyst is always at the sphere range for augments.

When activated (ground target AoE) the sphere drains 2 energy per second (no energy cost to activate), provides a combo field in the area, based on attunment, so no aoe boons. The base sphere is a way for the catalyst to get an easy field to do combos and get the benefits of it at the cost of its self boon generation. When active, the sphere does not change attunements when the catalyst changes, and cannot gain energy. The sphere becomes passive when energy is completely depleted or recalled (F5).

When active, using the F5 again will recall the sphere to the passive state. Have a 4s CD on it to avoid double tapping. In this way you can easily reposition the sphere or use it just for the quick combo. No energy cost on sphere activation. The sphere can be activated whenever it has at least 2 energy. Energy management becomes important only to how long you want to keep the sphere active.

Now make the AoE boons go into the Spectacular Sphere (competing with the aura dps trait and making a full boon support).
While the sphere specialist increase boon duration from the sphere (passive and active) becoming a good option for solo catalyst too.

 In this way, catalyst can use the sphere for combos at the cost of its own boon generation, or it can trait the sphere to provide boons to the group at the cost of its own boons and a dps trait. It allows the catalyst to focus on a single boon (letting the sphere drain out in a single attunement) or many (by recalling and redeploying the sphere in a different attunement).

This also lets the balance be done in another way. The passive sphere can provide other buffs (similar to the hammer skill 3) while in passive state. In this way, boon support not only have to trait out of the aura dps trait, but also looses the passive benefits of the sphere while its deployed to provide boons.

Edited March 27, 2022 by lLobo.7960
format and missing details

[Coldtart.4785]

5 hours ago, kapenike.6793 said:

Tempest had the highest heal output possible in the game with all support boons, if you gave it quickness we would probably go from 1% ele players to 10% in a week lol. Pre EOD main healers didn't have access to quickness ... Except sort of scrapper but calling that a main heal is a long shot

Heal tempest would surely be strong if it had quickness, but heal firebrand has all that and aegis and stability so it would still obey the rule that no one is allowed to be better than guardian.

[kapenike.6793]

14 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Heal tempest would surely be strong if it had quickness, but heal firebrand has all that and aegis and stability so it would still obey the rule that no one is allowed to be better than guardian.

 

Thats why I said pre EOD 😕 we're gonna see a huge rise in healbrands again, guaranteed. Main healers were only viable because of 10 man boons allowing you to run content with 9 dps / boon dps and one healer. Or 1 main heal and a healbrand tank / off heal. It's sad, but I assume with all classes having boons the new meta will be made of two "off healers" and 8 full on dps that can provide alac / quick and maybe help with fury and might so the off healers can run less boon duration and more deeps. I'm down for the change tbh ... but I stand by Ghandi ~ "Fix quickness Catalyst anet"

[kapenike.6793]

1 hour ago, lLobo.7960 said:

I don't like the idea much, mostly because I think aurashare should be a tempest trait, and heal on auras should be a water trait. This makes more sense and would let other ele specs use auras for healing, while letting tempest be an offensive boon support (with air/fire or fire/earth).

 

I do agree however, that the orb providing group wide boons by default it a bit too much, and allows for stacking dps catalyst for dps and boons without any drawbacks. 

 

IMO, have the Jade sphere have two states: active and passive. 

In passive state, it floats near the catalyst (as the scraper function gyro) and provides 1 boom every time it gains 2 energy (2 seconds ICD). Boom is to the catalyst only and based on attunement. The sphere passive boom changes with the catalyst attunment.
This way, catalyst can have some sustain and boons on its own. As the boons are tied to the attunement and with a 2s ICD a catalyst solo cannot maintain perma quickness without 100% boon duration, camping air, and/or further trait investment. In Passive state, the catalyst is always at the sphere range for augments.

When activated (ground target AoE) the sphere drains 2 energy per second, provides a combo field in the area, based on attunment, so no aoe boons. Its a way for the catalyst to get an easy field to do combos and get the benefits of it at the cost of its self boon generation. When active, the sphere does not change attunements when the catalyst changes, and cannot gain energy. The sphere becomes passive when energy is completely depleted or recalled (F5).

When active, using the F5 again will recall the sphere to the passive state. Have a 4s CD on it. In this way you can easily reposition the sphere or use it just for the quick combo.

Now make the AoE boons go into the Spectacular Sphere (competing with the aura dps trait and making a full boon support).
While the sphere specialist increase boon duration from the sphere (passive and active) becoming a good option for solo catalyst too.

 In this way, catalyst can use the sphere for combos at the cost of its own boon generation, or it can trait the sphere to provide boons to the group at the cost of its own boons and a dps trait. It allows the catalyst to focus on a single boon (letting the sphere drain out in a single attunement) or many (by recalling and redeploying the sphere in a different attunement).

This also lets the balance be done in another way. The passive sphere can provide other buffs (similar to the hammer skill 3) while in passive state. In this way, boon support not only have to trait out of the aura dps trait, but also looses the passive benefits of the sphere while its deployed to provide boons.

Please read all:

I've noticed over the past two years that a lot of people suggest water trait line should provide the healing on granting auras. I mean it's been in the forums for yearsss. Theres a reason it's not, that would be just way too powerful. When you get into combo fields with aurashare, weaver has just as much potential for creating auras as full support tempest (minus shouts). Throw marshals gear at weaver and you have a 16k dps 5k hps god ... as a harcore ele main I can say that flame axe + ice elementals as a power dps is actually insane. To add healing to it would be nuts (just an example, blasting ice is aoe frost aura and this is without aura share). 

But moving on, I think your idea has some serious merit. I like the passive jade sphere idea for Catalyst. Basically, your Jade elemental empowers you alone .. but if you want to grant boons to allies you can cast it as a well (if you have the trait). I especially like the idea of the augments being empowered by the passive as well. The biggest issue I see here is that as a dps, you need to combo to get effects from [Empowering Auras] and stack [Elemental Empowerment]. You need to almost always have a field down to benefit most from these. In PVP your idea is amazing, in PVE it is lacking a bit in terms of sustainable damage. If the cast your Jade sphere as an aoe was always off cooldown but pulling it back to your passive was a 4s cooldown I can see it working quite well. Although I still believe that offering this mechanic at a loss of just 10% strike damage from [Empowering Auras] just isn't enough for Anets sake.

[Serephen.3420]

3 hours ago, kapenike.6793 said:

Please read all:

I've noticed over the past two years that a lot of people suggest water trait line should provide the healing on granting auras. I mean it's been in the forums for yearsss. Theres a reason it's not, that would be just way too powerful. When you get into combo fields with aurashare, weaver has just as much potential for creating auras as full support tempest (minus shouts). Throw marshals gear at weaver and you have a 16k dps 5k hps god ... as a harcore ele main I can say that flame axe + ice elementals as a power dps is actually insane. To add healing to it would be nuts (just an example, blasting ice is aoe frost aura and this is without aura share). 

But moving on, I think your idea has some serious merit. I like the passive jade sphere idea for Catalyst. Basically, your Jade elemental empowers you alone .. but if you want to grant boons to allies you can cast it as a well (if you have the trait). I especially like the idea of the augments being empowered by the passive as well. The biggest issue I see here is that as a dps, you need to combo to get effects from [Empowering Auras] and stack [Elemental Empowerment]. You need to almost always have a field down to benefit most from these. In PVP your idea is amazing, in PVE it is lacking a bit in terms of sustainable damage. If the cast your Jade sphere as an aoe was always off cooldown but pulling it back to your passive was a 4s cooldown I can see it working quite well. Although I still believe that offering this mechanic at a loss of just 10% strike damage from [Empowering Auras] just isn't enough for Anets sake.

You would also need the grandmaster trait which would be giving up 1 dps and 1 dps/sustain trait. I don't think you realise how much you lose giving up the grandmaster.

 

 

Edit: Another idea is make it so whenever you do combos it provides quickness in an area. Would feed into the combo theme more and give some interesting interplay. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[lLobo.7960]

4 hours ago, kapenike.6793 said:

Please read all:

I've noticed over the past two years that a lot of people suggest water trait line should provide the healing on granting auras. I mean it's been in the forums for yearsss. Theres a reason it's not, that would be just way too powerful. When you get into combo fields with aurashare, weaver has just as much potential for creating auras as full support tempest (minus shouts). Throw marshals gear at weaver and you have a 16k dps 5k hps god ... as a harcore ele main I can say that flame axe + ice elementals as a power dps is actually insane. To add healing to it would be nuts (just an example, blasting ice is aoe frost aura and this is without aura share). 

But moving on, I think your idea has some serious merit. I like the passive jade sphere idea for Catalyst. Basically, your Jade elemental empowers you alone .. but if you want to grant boons to allies you can cast it as a well (if you have the trait). I especially like the idea of the augments being empowered by the passive as well. The biggest issue I see here is that as a dps, you need to combo to get effects from [Empowering Auras] and stack [Elemental Empowerment]. You need to almost always have a field down to benefit most from these. In PVP your idea is amazing, in PVE it is lacking a bit in terms of sustainable damage. If the cast your Jade sphere as an aoe was always off cooldown but pulling it back to your passive was a 4s cooldown I can see it working quite well. Although I still believe that offering this mechanic at a loss of just 10% strike damage from [Empowering Auras] just isn't enough for Anets sake.

 

As for aura share with healing, this is a whole other topic, but...
There is an issue (or pet peeve) with auras providing boons/effects on application versus pulsing boons/effects.
I've posted before saying that ele should have traits for boons/effects on aura application (which lets you spam auras to build up the effect) and should have effects that pulse while you have an aura (which does not benefit from spamming auras, but benefits from traits and runes that extend aura duration). 

I'd like to see:

 - Fire traits providing might on any aura application and fire auras pulsing resolution (instead of cleansing)

 - Air traits providing fury and swiftness on any aura application and static aura pulsing quickness

 - Earth traits providing protection on any aura application and magnectic aura pulsing stability and resistance

 - Water traits providing regeneration on any aura application and frost aura pulsing heal 

 

In terms of the loss of the jade sphere boons to give yourself fields to combo (when not traited for the active sphere to provide boons), this would be a trade off. If you are going for a dps spot in a group, it should not be an issue as you'd have boons covered by someone else, so you just need to make sure you have a field when you need it. If you are soloing, then it might be better to get sphere specialist to make the boons last longer (so you are covered when deploying the sphere for combos) at the cost of elemental empowerment. With the lower CD and no energy cost to activate, it should be easier to quickly deploy the sphere for a combo and call it back with just 4s of boon lost (2 boon applications).