Global Quickness nerf in order?

[The Boz.2038]

Right now, Quickness is a very strong, even hilariously powerful boon, with a relative, multiplicative effect.
It increases action speed by 50%. The effect of that is that, in a given unit of time, you can fit in 33% more actions, and each is easier to land. 

Comparison to three other boons that offensively increase your DPS:
* Fury - +20% critical chance. The effect is in the 15% range (80% crit chance with 300% crit damage is ~15% more with Fury). Medium-strength effect, relative, multiplicative effect. Affectly only damage.
* Might - +30 Power and Condition damage per stack. Linear, absolute effect. An average power-based build goes from 3000 to 3750 Power, which is a 25% increase. Affects only damage.
* Alacrity - Skills have a 25% faster recharge rate, so a skill has a cooldown of 80% its original one, provided it was under the effect of Alacrity throughout its cooldown period. Affects all skill use.

Doesn't it feel like a 33% buff is a clear outlier here in this bunch of 15-25% buff effects? Considering the power creep in the game, and the much increased availability of constant uptime quickness in group PvE content, wouldn't it make a fair amount of sense to reduce Quickness to a 33% increased action speed, which would allow you to make 25% more actions in a unit of time, just to curtail it that little tiny bit?

Edited March 28, 2022 by The Boz.2038

[Nash.2681]

Might affects condi dmg aswell 😉

[hash.8462]

Unless you are just doing 1-1-1-1, remember that skills have a cooldown, quickness only speed up activation of skills, so skills with a cooldown are barely affected by it.

 

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Might affects condi dmg aswell 😉

What is the point of this comment? I did put it up right there in the OP. If you are power, extra condi damage is mostly irrelevant. If you are condi, extra power damage is mostly irrelevant. If you are hybrid, getting both is... literally the same percentage multiplier to both of your stats, even in extremely optimized grieving/viper min-max builds.

[RabbitUp.8294]

Fury is the equivalent of 420 precision, and precision is interchangable with ferocity or power depending on your gearing. According to wiki, 15 ferocity gives 1% more crit damage, so 420 ferocity is 28% more crit damage.

Also yes, quickness is very powerful, the most powerful single boon, second most powerful to fully-stacked might. It's also much rarer. Yes, there are builds dedicated to offering perma-quickness, but that's specifically because of how rare it is. You don't need the same dedication for fury, or even might. You don't see the quickness equivalent of Deathstrike or even worse Furious Pounce.

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Also yes, quickness is very powerful, the most powerful single boon, second most powerful to fully-stacked might

Please do some tests, both with maths and plays. You are wrong on this.
Run a golem with full boons, then full -might, then full -quickness. You can easily see which has the greatest impact.

[Asum.4960]

I'm still not sure where this recent Forum trend about Quickness being way to powerful or even gamebreaking is coming from (did I miss some influencer shenanigans?). 

 

25 Might = or > than Quickness. That's pretty straight forward to test in the Aerodrome. 

 

You are greatly downrating Might. Base Power is 1000, base cdamage is 0. Full Berserker's gear adds 1382 Power. Full Viper's adds 1172 Power and 1172 cdamage. 750 Power and Condition Damage from a Boon is a massive increase next to that - pretty much equal to, if not slightly larger than, Quickness in effect. 

 

The power levels of all these "S Tier" boons, be it Might, Quickness, Protection, Fury, are insane. I don't really see a clear outlier here, no.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Asum.4960

[RabbitUp.8294]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Please do some tests, both with maths and plays. You are wrong on this.
Run a golem with full boons, then full -might, then full -quickness. You can easily see which has the greatest impact.

Quickness, like alacrity and unlike stat buffs like might, affects the rotation, so you would have to develop optimised rotations w/ and w/o quickness to do this test.

That been said, you could very well be totally right, and quickness is more powerful than 25 might (and we're taking purely about damage, like you said quickness affects -almost- all skill usage), but that's besides the point.

Like I said, quickness is a very rare boon. Might and fury are often by-products of regular rotations. You can blast a fire field to get might. If Time Warp gave fury, it would be a 12s cooldown skill, not 120s.

[SeTect.5918]

50 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

What is the point of this comment? I did put it up right there in the OP. If you are power, extra condi damage is mostly irrelevant. If you are condi, extra power damage is mostly irrelevant. If you are hybrid, getting both is... literally the same percentage multiplier to both of your stats, even in extremely optimized grieving/viper min-max builds.

Wrong. Around 15% dps comes from bleeding damage on power chronomancer. I do like 3-7k bleed ticks on my Power Chronomancer.
Elementalist power builds also benefit a lot from condi dmg because it has high burning output.
Dragonhunter also has fairly good access to burning in its power build.
Same for Power Holosmith, has also good access to bleeding tho.

A lot of Power builds have a lot of condi in it and thats why might also affects these builds positively and isnt irrelevant.
I d say that around 10-15% of dps of power builds are coming from condi dmg.

Edited March 28, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Nash.2681]

54 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

What is the point of this comment? I did put it up right there in the OP. If you are power, extra condi damage is mostly irrelevant. If you are condi, extra power damage is mostly irrelevant. If you are hybrid, getting both is... literally the same percentage multiplier to both of your stats, even in extremely optimized grieving/viper min-max builds.

Because you wrote this: 

1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said:

* Might - +30 Power and Condition damage per stack. Linear, absolute effect. An average power-based build goes from 3000 to 3750 Power, which is a 25% increase. Affects only power damage.

Which might be missleading? 

Anyway, didn't mean to interfere with your crusade on quickness, gl&hf 🙂

[The Boz.2038]

28 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

Like I said, quickness is a very rare boon.

It being both rare and powerful, yet still available in constant uptime forms from certain providers, makes the outlier-ness of the boon more pronounced, not less, IMO.

[The Boz.2038]

14 minutes ago, Nash.2681 said:

Because you wrote this: 

Which might be missleading? 

Anyway, didn't mean to interfere with your crusade on quickness, gl&hf 🙂

Ah. OK, corrected.

[The Boz.2038]

24 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

A lot of Power builds have a lot of condi in it and thats why might also affects these builds positively and isnt irrelevant.
I d say that around 10-15% of dps of power builds are coming from condi dmg.

Yeah, and getting both is... a linear increase to your DPS output.

[SeTect.5918]

23 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Yeah, and getting both is... a linear increase to your DPS output.

Yes.

Tho i agree that quickness is a bit strong compared to other boons. 

But if it gets nerfed, all dps gets nerfed too and tbh I don't want that so I would like that all core classes get some raw dps buffs then to compensate. 

Like this there is also no class that gets heavily nerfed because all are losing benchmark dps so all are getting buffs in core. 

It should be done later tho bc they have enough to do with balancing eod e specs.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Quickness was even more power at launch. It doesn't need it's effectiveness nerfed anymore. What is needed is for Anet to cut all boon output by half.

[The Boz.2038]

6 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Quickness was even more power at launch. It doesn't need it's effectiveness nerfed anymore. What is needed is for Anet to cut all boon output by half.

Back then, quickness wasn't a boon, and concentration didn't exist. You could get, like, 5 seconds once per minute of it, and that's it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Back then, quickness wasn't a boon, and concentration didn't exist. You could get, like, 5 seconds once per minute of it, and that's it.

Yeah, I know. Also please refer to the last part of my comment.

Anet needs to reduce all boon output rates, especially in WvW and PvE with boons applied in an aoe.

[Diak Atoli.2085]

All boons can be nerfed in effectiveness and I would be happy, as it makes personal skills more relevant than they are now. However, if boons are nerfed; the difficult content like certain fractal levels, strikes, and raids should also be nerfed to compensate.

[Nezekan.2671]

Quickness relies on alacrity more  than you think. When your actions are faster and you can execute more abilities quicker, if they don't cooldown quicker as well, then the effectiveness is dramatically reduced.

[Jski.6180]

It dose mess up cast time balancing and on other effect dose not seem to do any thing at all. Maybe boons over all just need to be a smaller part of the game.

[Vidit.7108]

The effects of quickness are being overstated here. The most important thing to the average group is 25 stacks of might before anything else. Not crit capping is big so fury is next. Then Quickness or Alacrity. Which one depends on the build.

The more auto attacks you incorporate the more important quickness is. If you run a build that does most of it's damage during a burst phase or during a trait/skill activation window (say Assassin's Signet) then Quickness is important. However if you have a lot of skills on a big cooldown and your auto attack is mostly filler for when they're ready then quickness is less important to you than alacrity. Some depend on both pretty equally. 

I recently did a T4 run a couple days ago where I pugged into a guild using AlacMech. Which was fine, that's fury and 25 stacks of might, but they neglected to have anyone provide the group with quickness.  It only took longer because of three things. 1. A lack of stability when we needed it. 2. Unfamiliarity with the fractals putting people in the wrong places 3. The inexplicable decision to not ooc and leave their guildy behind as they charged into the next fight.

Most phases still completed in an about average amount of time and I've had T4/T3 groups with quickness take longer still.

[RabbitUp.8294]

7 hours ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Back then, quickness wasn't a boon, and concentration didn't exist. You could get, like, 5 seconds once per minute of it, and that's it.

Quickness was twice as strong and you could get 10 seconds from Time Warp. That's all the time you needed to kill a dungeon boss, and it was back up again by the time you reached the next one.

[Bleikopf.2491]

As far as I'm aware Quickness and Alacrity don't line up (anymore) . That's my real grit here.  Would prefer my rotations to be the same regardless if I have no buffs or all the buffs. 

[The Boz.2038]

What do you mean "line up"?

[ZDragon.3046]

On 3/28/2022 at 6:14 AM, The Boz.2038 said:

Yeah, and getting both is... a linear increase to your DPS output.

This is not completely correct as most power builds or many of them at the very least take traits that increase the power gain on might and and in some cases lower the gain on condition damage at the same time meaning its not really a linear gain as traits like these are actively designed to prioritize power damage and make the conditions thrown out with the power damage lesser to he might gain on conditions focused builds. While the conditions will still see some gain it is no longer a liner gain on hand full of classes. 

 

Overall quickness is probably good as it is as a few others have already stated most skills have a cooldown and once you use them once quickness cannot effect them again for 10, 15, 20 seconds or more. Quickness mainly comes down to making auto attacks feel much stronger. You could argue skills come back off cd faster than the example numbers but then you have to take into account alacrity which is another very powerful boon in its own right which was also already nerfed once just like quickness was.

 

While i acknowledge your feeling of how strong quickness is i have to ask you...
Do you really want to make players feel less powerful which might in turn ruin their enjoyment of certain classes or builds or even the game in general? What makes you not enjoy quickness the way it is right now? If you think it should be nerfed just because its a powerful boon im no sure thats a good enough reason honestly. The game has lots of powerful boons that shine in different game modes. 

 

I personally dont think a nerf to quickness is the answer. Especially with how anet designed the EoD content where making one or 2 mistakes causes a wipe. Boons wont speed you through the mechanics if you don't do them properly which is nice. Unlike the core days of gw2 where you could just zerker through everything. The key going forward should be to make players perform mechanics or be punished heavily for failing to do it correctly a set number of times. Some of he later EoD strikes already do a good job of this as it is.

 

Sorry but my vote is to leave boons alone they are already complicated enough as it is and nerfing even a single one of them especially one like quickness requires a re-evaluation of all end game content which is going to be more troublesome. I would rather feel powerful and have fun and have to do mechanics properly even if it means having to stop doing dps for x amount of time vs play a nerfed slow lesser quickness based end game where i can continue to ignore mechanics because it all had to be adjusted to compensate for the drop of game wide damage.