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Where is the detailed thief OP thread at?


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I haven't seen any chatter about thief, daredevil, or deadeye in a while. Not really seeing much whining about stealth. I only see some vague complaints about spectres, but funny thing is no builds or specific skills. Got to see a few peppered in the MATs but the games were basically the top 5 farming potatoes. And the pace was so slow, anything could have worked. I think the previous thieves need some quality of life adjustments, but I don't really see what needs to go with spectre. Specifically, what is the build that can duel, roam, support, dps, teamfight, heal and do critical power damage and massive condi damage all in one?

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2 minutes ago, Grimjack.8130 said:

dont worry mr gundam style, you and your delusions will not stop the fact that spectre is degenerately strong and ur class will be nerfed, i suggest you abuse it while you can before it becomes overall more healthier and far harder for peepos like you to play

It's not anymore strong than your favorite, which is still degenerate. No one wants to lay out the problem because of the parallels to other builds will be apparent. I doubt it's going anywhere because even you cannot objectively even summarize truthfully an issue.

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1 hour ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

It's not anymore strong than your favorite, which is still degenerate. No one wants to lay out the problem because of the parallels to other builds will be apparent. I doubt it's going anywhere because even you cannot objectively even summarize truthfully an issue.

It is a thief with necro shroud that can heal and give boons, it has several abilities from other professions but they are better. It doesn't pay the necro tax for the shroud, it gets an extra weapon set for free no locked weapon swap like some other professions that got an extra weapon bundle , do i need to continue why it has mechanical creep.  

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1 hour ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

No one wants to lay out the problem because of the parallels to other builds will be apparent.

Every utility gives you teleport, alac, and quickness. Twilight combo does as much damage as backstab & has long duration chill and poison. Siphon has 5s of slow. Its thief with a necro shroud, there arent many parallels to other classes.

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Specter is easily and by far the strongest possible Thief spec you can play.

It is currently performing at S++ tier.

It can roam, it can decap, it can 1v1, it can + hard, it can team fight, it can team support, it can revive like a signet, it has very strong resilience vs. both power & condi, it vomits alacrity all over the place, and it is a thief with AoE CCs and DPS.

The only thing you can possibly run as a Thief that has one parameter that is still better than Specter, is DP Daredevil for sheer rotational decap speed. But that is the only thing DP Daredevil does better than Specter.

All other Thief builds are completely obsolete after the release of Specter. This is true in pvp, wvw, and pve.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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39 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Specter is easily and by far the strongest possible Thief spec you can play.

It is currently performing at S++ tier.

It can roam, it can decap, it can 1v1, it can + hard, it can team fight, it can team support, it can revive like a signet, it has very strong resilience vs. both power & condi, it vomits alacrity all over the place, and it is a thief with AoE CCs and DPS.

It really cannot 1v1. There is a reason we see Spectres barely going for 1v1s in the MAT and the EU NA showmatch, and why the handful of them that did try to 1v1 against non-Spectre classes *universally* lost their 1v1s. It is really good on everything else though. Its basically a decap and +1 bot that is also really good in teamfights apparently. I doubt it'll last though, Anet does not like when thief is good at anything but decapping and +1ing. I expect their teamfight capabilities to be reduced to nothing.

 

39 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

The only thing you can possibly run as a Thief that has one parameter that is still better than Specter, is DP Daredevil for sheer rotational decap speed. But that is the only thing DP Daredevil does better than Specter.

All other Thief builds are completely obsolete after the release of Specter. This is true in pvp, wvw, and pve.

Not really true in WvW (and only conditionally true in PvE, status pending). In WvW, the only reason to pick thief is to hunt noobs in duels. Spectre isnt good at 1v1s, and its less mobile. Why pick it over DD?

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1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It really cannot 1v1. There is a reason we see Spectres barely going for 1v1s in the MAT and the EU NA showmatch, and why the handful of them that did try to 1v1 against non-Spectre classes *universally* lost their 1v1s. It is really good on everything else though. Its basically a decap and +1 bot that is also really good in teamfights apparently. I doubt it'll last though, Anet does not like when thief is good at anything but decapping and +1ing. I expect their teamfight capabilities to be reduced to nothing.

 

Not really true in WvW (and only conditionally true in PvE, status pending). In WvW, the only reason to pick thief is to hunt noobs in duels. Spectre isnt good at 1v1s, and its less mobile. Why pick it over DD?

And anyways, why would you stall or 1v1 a mech as a specter, you have your own mech for that.

If they're stalling or 1v1ing their mech with anything other than a mech, then they're already losing. That's how good mech is, but the fact that specter can at least stall it enough is telling in itself.

Edited by Tanbin.2436
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1 hour ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It really cannot 1v1. There is a reason we see Spectres barely going for 1v1s in the MAT and the EU NA showmatch, and why the handful of them that did try to 1v1 against non-Spectre classes *universally* lost their 1v1s. It is really good on everything else though. Its basically a decap and +1 bot that is also really good in teamfights apparently. I doubt it'll last though, Anet does not like when thief is good at anything but decapping and +1ing. I expect their teamfight capabilities to be reduced to nothing.

 

Not really true in WvW (and only conditionally true in PvE, status pending). In WvW, the only reason to pick thief is to hunt noobs in duels. Spectre isnt good at 1v1s, and its less mobile. Why pick it over DD?

Let me clear this up:

When I say it can 1v1, I mean it can stay and 1v1 and not die, which is something new for thieves. Normally Thieves that stay to 1v1 or stall for any reason, can get popped real fast. This is not a problem on Specter.

And in wvw, Specter is becoming an alpha roamer very quickly. Judging from your comment, I'm not too sure you are quite aware of what Specter can do in wvw with pve gear options. Look into: Celestial Gear - Rune Of Tormenting - Draining Sigil. There are ways to make it an unkillable roamer that also has ideal support when mixing with small havoc and even zergs.

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A-net borked up hard with the specter design. I can understand parts of the kit, but when all of it is put together, it's just too much. Over the last decade every time a thief was able to perform at an average level on top of being the most mobile, that aspect was toned down.
So when they announced specter, and the preview made it clear it has a shroud mechanic, I was sure it will have bad mobility(maybe some combat mobility that uses allied/enemy positioning for targets), but it just ended up getting ports on all its wells. Even without shortbow it can be the most mobile thief spec... AND it's a support, AND it's harder to kill... why?

I was thinking about what to nerf on specter, and honestly I cannot come up with any solution that doesn't kill the spec off in PvP. Forcing them to make more stat investment to be viable as a support is not an option(the amulets are removed lmao), their mobility and extra survivability is baked in by design... I suggest a rework(like deadeye got 6 months into PoF). The mechanic creep is just too much, and balancing it by upping cooldowns and reducing numbers will just render it clunky and unplayable.
 

Edited by Bazsi.2734
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1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Let me clear this up:

When I say it can 1v1, I mean it can stay and 1v1 and not die, which is something new for thieves. Normally Thieves that stay to 1v1 or stall for any reason, can get popped real fast. This is not a problem on Specter.

Oh theyre not great at that either. They can stay a bit longer (like, 15 seconds instead of 10), but they still kinda just die if they dont run away.

 

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

And in wvw, Specter is becoming an alpha roamer very quickly. Judging from your comment, I'm not too sure you are quite aware of what Specter can do in wvw with pve gear options. Look into: Celestial Gear - Rune Of Tormenting - Draining Sigil. There are ways to make it an unkillable roamer that also has ideal support when mixing with small havoc and even zergs.

"Unkillable" roamers are a dime a dozen. Thats nothing special. And theyre usually not very good, because they also cant kill the enemy, and can in fact sometimes be killed. Specter in particular does not have great active defenses against your bogstandard oneshot Soulbeast (itself not a very good build). The only exception to this is is like boonbeast. That one is actually good. Specter is nothing special here, and not even particularly good. In zergs, its useless for obvious reasons, and in small scale skirmishes its about as good as condi thief is. Which isnt very.

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2 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

Oh theyre not great at that either. They can stay a bit longer (like, 15 seconds instead of 10), but they still kinda just die if they dont run away.

 

"Unkillable" roamers are a dime a dozen. Thats nothing special. And theyre usually not very good, because they also cant kill the enemy, and can in fact sometimes be killed. Specter in particular does not have great active defenses against your bogstandard oneshot Soulbeast (itself not a very good build). The only exception to this is is like boonbeast. That one is actually good. Specter is nothing special here, and not even particularly good. In zergs, its useless for obvious reasons, and in small scale skirmishes its about as good as condi thief is. Which isnt very.

Dude with cele stats it can spam itself to perma 25 might and actually kill things with only auto #1 for DPS and #2 to propagate might. It then benefits a lot more extra damage from interrupts from the draining sigil. I really don't think you're realizing how strong this is in wvw.

Actually read this Superior Sigil of Draining - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) and understand that it has no CD. Now you pair this with a class/build that is constantly rattling off CCs and you have a lot of damage output that is not effected by armor or protection or any other source of damage mitigation. This pulsing CC well is serious **** with sigil of draining Shadowfall - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) lots of damage and like beyond a full heal if you actually hit 5 targets with this.

Edited by Trevor Boyer.6524
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14 hours ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

I haven't seen any chatter about thief, daredevil, or deadeye in a while. Not really seeing much whining about stealth.

A thread exists, but it's near impossible to open it because it keeps rotating between evades and stealth so every few sec the thread is either hidden or returns a 404 error when you try to click it.

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10 hours ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

It really cannot 1v1. There is a reason we see Spectres barely going for 1v1s in the MAT and the EU NA showmatch, and why the handful of them that did try to 1v1 against non-Spectre classes *universally* lost their 1v1s.

You keep saying this, and yet, check 01:16:50, specter just casually beats fireweaver. I'm sure I remember seeing it beat core-necro several times too, though will take a while to scan through and find the timestamps.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=1h16m39s

Now watch from 02:23:00 and see red specter hold bottom node neutral against a mechanist for the first 3 minutes of the game (lol, "15 seconds"), and blue specter hold top node neutral against fireweaver.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h23m8s

On minimap, at 02:48:40, watch blue specter take close from red herald and then kill the herald:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h48m38s

At 02:51:30, watch blue specter beat red herald on left node, and watch at the same time on right node red specter beat blue vindicator.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h51m23s

Are they top #1 1v1 class? No. But "cannot 1v1" is clearly not true. You know its actually possible for a class/build to be somewhere in between "trash" and "godmode", it's not either/or.
 
I don't want to see Specter get gutted, I like that thief has a genuine alternative spec that allows it to properly get involved in team-fights, I just find it ridiculous all the thief mains claiming its "bad".
Edited by Ragnar.4257
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3 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Now watch from 02:23:00 and see red specter hold bottom node neutral against a mechanist for the first 3 minutes of the game (lol, "15 seconds"), and blue specter hold top node neutral against fireweaver.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h23m8s

lmao specter straight up dueling mech for so long untill got +1 and dies
meanwhile on other side node, weaver just gets his kitten beaten up by specter.
but good thing specter is bad and cata needs nerf

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10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Dude with cele stats it can spam itself to perma 25 might and actually kill things with only auto #1 for DPS and #2 to propagate might. It then benefits a lot more extra damage from interrupts from the draining sigil. I really don't think you're realizing how strong this is in wvw.

You do know that thats just ... boonbeast, except bad, right? Its boonbeast with an autoattack that does about half as much DPS, and none of the things that make boonbeast good. You lack the tankiness, you lack the sustain, you lack the damage and you lack the condipressure.

 

10 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Actually read this Superior Sigil of Draining - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) and understand that it has no CD. Now you pair this with a class/build that is constantly rattling off CCs and you have a lot of damage output that is not effected by armor or protection or any other source of damage mitigation. This pulsing CC well is serious **** with sigil of draining Shadowfall - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W) lots of damage and like beyond a full heal if you actually hit 5 targets with this.

I would also point out that DP DD has had that sigil for ages back when PI was still a thing. And it wasnt very good. Even with Headshot being as good as it is. Specter is also ... not a class adept at spamming CCs. In fact, it has 4. Steal (or Siphon I guess). Shroud 3. Shroud 4. And the Elite well. Of these, only Siphon is actually fast enough to get an interrupt. Sigil of Draining only drains if theyre interrupted, so if they dont use a skill when youre in Shadowfall, or when the enemy Specter is using the very slow shroud 3 or shroud 4 ... you dont get drained. And besides the shadow shroud skills, the cooldowns are all quite long. Its simply not good. Its a bad Boonbeast.

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7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

You keep saying this, and yet, check 01:16:50, specter just casually beats fireweaver. I'm sure I remember seeing it beat core-necro several times too, though will take a while to scan through and find the timestamps.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=1h16m39s

This is not winning a 1v1. Thief was just 2v1ing the Weaver with a Guardian, and while the Guardian moves away, this is just thief cleaning up after a 2v1. Not an example. I think you mistook it because of what Teapot was saying, seemingly he did not spot the Guardian either.

 

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

Now watch from 02:23:00 and see red specter hold bottom node neutral against a mechanist for the first 3 minutes of the game (lol, "15 seconds"), and blue specter hold top node neutral against fireweaver.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h23m8s

This appears to be a Druid style Mechanist sidenoder, who does not have the kill pressure to kill anyone, but instead wins sidenode battles by constantly pushing off the enemy while continously capturing the point. A classic  bunker. Except, this Engineer appears to not know how to play it. He keeps going off the node. This isnt thief holding a node against Engineer, this is an Engineer not knowing how to play his class.

 

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

On minimap, at 02:48:40, watch blue specter take close from red herald and then kill the herald:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h48m38s

This is the first and only time so far I have seen this actually happen. Sure, this is an example of a specter winning a 1v1.

 

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

At 02:51:30, watch blue specter beat red herald on left node, and watch at the same time on right node red specter beat blue vindicator.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1437503099?t=2h51m23s

Uh, the blue specter does not beat red herald. You can tell by the lifebars that the red herald is literally at *full* hp. He just disengages for some reason without fighting. As for the blue vindicator, yeah he loses, but he also clearly misplays. Shackling wave into nothing, not going for sword 3, just weird.

 

7 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:
Are they top #1 1v1 class? No. But "cannot 1v1" is clearly not true. You know its actually possible for a class/build to be somewhere in between "trash" and "godmode", it's not either/or.
I don't want to see Specter get gutted, I like that thief has a genuine alternative spec that allows it to properly get involved in team-fights, I just find it ridiculous all the thief mains claiming its "bad".

I mean, we did see in the EU vs NA showmatch that Specter lost every 1v1, including against a necro. It certainly isnt good at 1v1s. It might be able to win some though, admitively I didnt see any Rev vs Specter 1v1s in that showmatch. However, losing to most classes instead of all classes does not make it less bad.

 

Oh it'll be gutted. Lets not kid ourselves, its just a matter of time. Anet guts every thief build that allows them to do more than decap and +1 while doing noodle damage. And yeah I dont know why people would claim its bad. I was just unconvinced its teamfight power was good enough initially. 

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17 minutes ago, UNOwen.7132 said:

This is not winning a 1v1. Thief was just 2v1ing the Weaver with a Guardian, and while the Guardian moves away, this is just thief cleaning up after a 2v1. Not an example. I think you mistook it because of what Teapot was saying, seemingly he did not spot the Guardian either.

And *you* clearly didn't notice that it had been a 2v2, with the weaver's team-mate dying, and the guardian disengaging to leave the thief 1v1.

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1 minute ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

And *you* clearly didn't notice that it had been a 2v2, with the weaver's team-mate dying, and the guardian disengaging to leave the thief 1v1.

Actually, it was a 3v3, then a 3v2, then a 2v1. You can tell the herald had fought there just a moment ago and just rotated around. Anyway, point is, this was a 2v1 victory, not a 1v1 victory. Cleaning up after an enemy had to expend all their resources in a 2v1 is not winning a 1v1.

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