When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[Telgum.6071]

9 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Some people should stick to spvp instead if they find wvw encounters difficult to navigate.

Quite the opposite lol, currently spamming a full celestial gear build, the game has never been this easy to play. Is OP and it should be nerfed, if not removed.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Telgum.6071

[DanAlcedo.3281]

18 minutes ago, Kontrolle.3514 said:

Your complains and the tears that you cry.

Could you maybe give me an actual answer and not something that a 10y old would say?

 

[Telgum.6071]

2 hours ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

 

Muh builds play for me

Is this video of yours supposed to be a counter argument in favour to Celestial stats? In the very first clip you are contantly being hit by two players, receiving strike and condition damage and it doesn't matter because you have high toughness and high healing power, so you are constantly tanking and healing while vomiting conditions into the enemies. Looking at the amount of HP you lost in that fight, you would've die if you were playing in full berserker because it doesn't stack absurd amounts of vitality.

Just the first clip is the perfect example of what I wrote in my first message of the thread: "spam conditions on the enemy, focus on survival and let the enemy die". I've been in this same situation many times since I started to play these broken builds. On Celestial I don't mind jumping into two or three foes, but I wouldn't dare to do it on a power gear because it isn't busted.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Telgum.6071

[The Raven.1320]

How to fight a cele nade scrapper on a spellbreaker?

 

Anyone?

 

Bueller? 

[Wiggely.7320]

Not going to argue about cele being overpowered or not in small fights.
Simply because if I lose them it's because of lack of skill compared to the ones I'm fighting, no matter my gear.

But I will add this: I try to play support in wvw, but I only join open tag commanders etc. Most of the time I'm actually running around scouting, or helping small roamer bands if they seem to be in need of  a hand.

Now a full support build gets nothing done small scale, or solo.
Med kit kills the other by boredom, at best. Elixir gun works nice with stat spread, but let's be real: it's not a 'killing' kit, now is it...
A real roaming build isn't supporting any group, it's about self sustain and burst mostly.
I try to build 'mostly' support, while sacrificing a few things to keep some damage traits as well.

My answer to all of this: celestial gear!
It allows me to run around in wvw in a more supportive build, but still get things done on my own at least.
I'm losing to real roamers if they come for me, but as mentioned: maybe I would win if I get better, that I can't judge.
 

edited this in: I could accept cele gear getting a little less of everything. It does seem very abundant in its stats. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Wiggely.7320

[Dralor.3701]

1 hour ago, Afkbrbgtgftw.7904 said:

How to fight a cele nade scrapper on a spellbreaker?

 

Anyone?

 

Bueller? 

Haven’t fought a scrapper recently so can’t speak to that. It’s easy enough to do enough damage to overwhelm the sustain on a warrior(pre shout buff at least), the more likely scenario is they run away not score a kill.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

3 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Is this video of yours supposed to be a counter argument in favour to Celestial stats? In the very first clip you are contantly being hit by two players, receiving strike and condition damage and it doesn't matter because you have high toughness and high healing power, so you are constantly tanking and healing while vomiting conditions into the enemies. Looking at the amount of HP you lost in that fight, you would've die if you were playing in full berserker because it doesn't stack absurd amounts of vitality.

Just the first clip is the perfect example of what I wrote in my first message of the thread: "spam conditions on the enemy, focus on survival and let the enemy die". I've been in this same situation many times since I started to play these broken builds. On Celestial I don't mind jumping into two or three foes, but I wouldn't dare to do it on a power gear because it isn't busted.

 

The condis that are applied to the DH in that first clip never rise above 1k damage per second and it took 20s for the DH to go down. Are you saying that this is an unacceptable level of damage coming from condis applied by the celestial build?

 

Meanwhile, the same DH doesn't try to use his traps intelligently, doesn't use shield, doesn't cleanse the condis, doesn't try to tether the opponent and didn't use his virtues to try to defend himself, instead walking around in circles pressing 1 for most of the fight. Are you telling us that what the DH did is a standard of skill that should be aspired to for small scale fights? 

[jsp.6912]

i don't understand why they buffed it probably for pve

 

but this stat is so kittenous

[Telgum.6071]

1 minute ago, Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

 

The condis that are applied to the DH in that first clip never rise above 1k damage per second and it took 20s for the DH to go down. Are you saying that this is an unacceptable level of damage coming from condis applied by the celestial build?

 

Meanwhile, the same DH doesn't try to use his traps intelligently, doesn't use shield, doesn't cleanse the condis, doesn't try to tether the opponent and didn't use his virtues to try to defend himself, instead walking around in circles pressing 1 for most of the fight. Are you telling us that what the DH did is a standard of skill that should be aspired to for small scale fights? 

I'm saying that even with this DH being bad, the guy who made the clip would've dead if playing on a full berserker gear just considering the vitality+toughness+healing power boosts of Celestial stats. There is no possible power setup that can compare with the celestial stat boost in any sense outside instant burst, which is still laughable because the power difference between full celestial and full berserker is around ~700. But if you are not convinced by the first clip you can go straight for the second one on which the player will just tank a rampeged warrior while having 10 stacks of vulnerability, just to kill them some second later by just vomiting conditions and running away while again tanking more damage and healing at the same time.

So what is the standard for you then? Having condition builds dealing +10k of power damage in just one second, aside of all the bloated defensive capabilities?

[RisenHowl.2419]

2 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said:

Is this video of yours supposed to be a counter argument in favour to Celestial stats? In the very first clip you are contantly being hit by two players, receiving strike and condition damage and it doesn't matter because you have high toughness and high healing power, so you are constantly tanking and healing while vomiting conditions into the enemies. Looking at the amount of HP you lost in that fight, you would've die if you were playing in full berserker because it doesn't stack absurd amounts of vitality.

Just the first clip is the perfect example of what I wrote in my first message of the thread: "spam conditions on the enemy, focus on survival and let the enemy die". I've been in this same situation many times since I started to play these broken builds. On Celestial I don't mind jumping into two or three foes, but I wouldn't dare to do it on a power gear because it isn't busted.

I'm also interrupting their skills, forcing them to change position so my symbols deal damage, and staying aggressive on the DH so he can't freecast since I know I can CC lock/kite the necro. All things that can be done with any stat type, each of which plays a bigger role in winning outnumbered fights than what stats you're using.

 

The reaper clips are all in full zerkers gear with 1 stun break. The pace of fights change because I know I can't sustain a long encounter, so I focus on CC and burst. Because of this I have no problems taking on multiple people in celestial or support gear.

 

The average player isn't going to get the damage out of celestial builds than an experienced player does because it requires more than just pushing a button and seeing a crit, if you're regularly losing against celestial builds it's 100% due to lack of skill on your part. Either your build lacks sustain or burst, or you're not playing well. These are things you can fix =D

[Telgum.6071]

21 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

The reaper clips are all in full zerkers gear with 1 stun break. The pace of fights change because I know I can't sustain a long encounter, so I focus on CC and burst. Because of this I have no problems taking on multiple people in celestial or support gear.

This is the point and I'm glad you admit it.

22 minutes ago, RisenHowl.2419 said:

The average player isn't going to get the damage out of celestial builds than an experienced player does because it requires more than just pushing a button and seeing a crit, if you're regularly losing against celestial builds it's 100% due to lack of skill on your part. Either your build lacks sustain or burst, or you're not playing well. These are things you can fix =D

And this is simply not true, can relate on both personal and foreign experience. Condition builds having high survivability resources, be on Trailblazer with high vitality + toughness or Celestial with bloated stats allows the average players just spamming conditions and focus on running around (this is the literal definition of Celestial Mirage gameplay). Heck, this is was I used to do when I started playing WvW years ago, it was evident then, it was more evident when I swiched to play pure power builds and I realized I wasn't being carried anymore and had to be smart in most fights. Of couse there is a difference between playing against an average (where I also place myself) and playing against very experienced duelers, but it doesn't change the fact tha Celestial builds are braindead easy mode.

[Lobsters.3869]

Celestial is like a um... like a fix all bandage for the games biggest problems.  It lets people do things with their class that is abit outside the horrible stat allocations put into most of the armor.  Toughness, Precision, Condition Damage anyone?  No, lol.  Just no, but its like that.  2 stats that u think oh ok and the third that is just not useful at all whatsoever with anything you are trying to do.  Celestial kind of fixes that for us.  Its good.

 

The real problem is overtuned skills for certain classes and not for others.  Like have you ever fought a ranger using 2 daggers and a shortbow?  Nope.  If you did then they died and died and died and never was seen again.

 

The problem with the game is theres just so many skills, weapons and they cannot balance them all so they focus on the popular ones and do that.  Its not their fault they do what they can.  I'd like to believe thats what they do because that would be the right thing to do.  

 

I do believe that if I'm a silver assaulter and I kill a diamond platinum legend then I should get a bonus % magic find chance on that bag they dropped.  That is only fair.

 

I see alot of new players because of EOD and I just feel bad because they are coming in to the most broken grouping of wvwers.  The player count is low for those who have been here years and they have fine-tuned or are exploiting the FOTM and just destroy the newbies.  Literally anyone new who tries WVW is about to get gaped.  I feel bad because this wvw mode is stuck in a downward spiral and the guys making decisions just do not care about it.  I guess they get paid either way.

[TheGrimm.5624]

Cele is actually in a good spot right now. Its the jack of all trades, which was its design. It doesn't fit well in specializations that only requires either power or condi or support but for builds that can use all three it fits the bill. Note the word choice of fit. It had its day in the sun 8 years or so ago but its current standing it is viable which means its in an ok spot. 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

1 hour ago, Telgum.6071 said:

I'm saying that even with this DH being bad, the guy who made the clip would've dead if playing on a full berserker gear just considering the vitality+toughness+healing power boosts of Celestial stats. There is no possible power setup that can compare with the celestial stat boost in any sense outside instant burst, which is still laughable because the power difference between full celestial and full berserker is around ~700. But if you are not convinced by the first clip you can go straight for the second one on which the player will just tank a rampeged warrior while having 10 stacks of vulnerability, just to kill them some second later by just vomiting conditions and running away while again tanking more damage and healing at the same time.

So what is the standard for you then? Having condition builds dealing +10k of power damage in just one second, aside of all the bloated defensive capabilities?

Well yes, but that is kinda stating the obvious. Celestial obviously tanks more damage than berserker, but saying that the guy would have been dead on berserker is the exact reason that nobody solo roams on full berserker outside of the occasional thief or mesmer.

 

Anyone that runs full berserker ought to understand that they are a one trick pony by choice. Berserker brings nothing but damage and so only really works in situations where you aim to take no damage; be it because you use active defences to mitigate damage, you have a support to carry you or because the enemy is dead before he realises you're there. Every berserker build works this way by necessity; scrapper's outgoing damage to barrier trait allows it to be the notable exception but there is a reason that build is problematic. 

 

Celestial's advantage lies in the fact that it is not a condi build; the fact that it is hybrid allows you to pressure your enemy with both power and condi at once which is generally harder to defend against than either type of damage on it's own. This actually means it plays the exact way that a condition build should play - not huge damage spikes, just wears you down while being sustainable. So yeah, I don't see something being tanky while still doing damage as a bad thing as long as it is killable by a power spike, and the video proves that it is (see 2:42 when the DH manages to land something). 

 

You can take most celestial builds and put them on trailblazer gear and they'd function just as well if not better. If it is still OP on a different stat set then it's the build doing that, not the stats. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

People will stop running bunker builds when you stop 3v1, 5v1, 10v1'ing them.

It's the same reason why thieves run stealth. They could run a "fun" high risk and reward builds but even if they win you send the whole map after them and blob them off the map. You can never win. Even if somehow you could "outskill" them, they would make a million excuses and probably just complain on the forums.

If it downed state didn't so overwhelmingly help the side with more numbers that would change, but until you can wade through the red floor of rings and ccs to secure even a single kill, then yea you need sustain.

And that's the reality of WvW. Nobody wants to build for duels because it's never a 1v1 for long. And 1v1s don't mean anything either.

So every time you run over a random roamer in a zerg or your "roaming" squad of 12 runs over 2-3 people trying to take a camp, then you're just driving them to create even cheesier builds.

Also looking at Risen's Video:

In the first fight, the enemies didn't seem to dodge at all? And they kept in melee range all the time. (Why would you do that on a DH). No attempt to retreat at low health. I mean come on now, you think they would have survived any kind of power burst? lol. Even the drake tried to move more!

It's a recurring theme, people thirsting for a kill and not dodging. And they die. Stats aren't the issue here lol.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Hotride.2187]

5 hours ago, Afkbrbgtgftw.7904 said:

How to fight a cele nade scrapper on a spellbreaker?

Anyone?

Bueller? 

Patiently. Their sustain is stupid high but it comes from the regen, if you can strip that they are dead meat (superspeed or not). Focus on avoiding their grenades, since that is where the condi is coming from (their power damage can be ignored, like most cele builds). The grenade range is not high, so you can just kite while they spam the kit. Especially don't try to chase them while they have superspeed up and are spamming grenades behind themselves. Make them chase you instead.

For boon stripping. My experience is, don't try to strip their stab (the projectile hate dome) with breaching strike, wait for them to have no stab instead (its very hard to land dagger burst due to their swiftness/superspeed). CC hard then to strip everything, don't chain the CC (let them try to do something to get interrupts with sigil of absorption for extra strips).

If you are outnumbering the scrapper, move to cut them off, dagger burst and then just CC and strip them. WIthout boons they can only run.

It will take you a while to take them down due to how dumb cele stats are, but normally spb does well vs cele. Cele relies on condi to kill you, your condi cleanses are decent (mending, shake it off, brawlers recovery). You just have to be smart with your CCs and cleanses, playing patiently. Time is actually on your side, unlike vs bursty power builds.

That being said, fighting cele builds is extremely boring and slow. Cele shortbow ren is probably the most "fun" you'll get from dueling a cele build - their bursts are strong and they are relatively squishy for a bunker build. So either you or they die "fast".

Edited March 30, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[voltaicbore.8012]

 

7 hours ago, Swagger.1459 said:

Wvw will not change to meet your dueling needs, nor will the devs bend their knees to those who sit in duel clusters complaining about balance.

That sure sounds nice, but eh. Skill splits already exist because things that are designed to work well in PvE become busted and OP in competitive. Granted, those splits should be based on zerg and large-scale balance more than dueling, I get it. But at the end of the day ANet is already making judgements about what should and shouldn't be allowed in WvW instead of having that truly no-holds-barred experience that WvW should be.

Overall I don't care though. The sole purpose of WvW for me is just GoB at this point, so I could care less about what happens. I just hate seeing, on principle, the call for nerfs in WvW. That mode should be the fullest expression of GW2's combat, warts and all. So what if one or a few builds end up suffocatingly dominant? That just means ANet designed a terrible game in terms of competitive balance, deal with it. Crying for changes and updates make you no different from the sPvP crowd you all look down your noses at so much.

Edited March 30, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[MedievalThings.5417]

The only way they would touch celestial stats was if it stopped boonballs from ktraining everything.  And then, it would be nerfed because Anet treats defending as unintended gameplay.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Ubi.4136

[apharma.3741]

What is actually broken is perfect stats on singular builds, examples:
Minstels/nomads on heavy healing and boon output class-build combos which have and need no offensive stats and see no benefit from them.

Trailblazer on condition builds in particular those that can expand their effective health pool and/or get plenty of healing without investment.

Zerker (yes this old stat combo) on builds that have aggressive damage scaling and offensive traits, bonus if the class also has a lot of defence baked into skills to leave fights most of the time. There is a reason why all one shot classes use this.

 

Celestial is only a better pick than the above where you have weapons/skills that scale well with power and have conditions on them, you have a decent amount of boons (or a few very important boons like stab, prot, resolution) and you have a source of healing that is more than just your heal or a very aggressive scaling on the heal. Basically you really need a build that's got a decent amount of everything (and I do mean everything) otherwise celestial is not better (it might be equal though) than a perfect stat combo.
Don't believe me? Work it out yourselves using the damage calculation formula for a pure power build, condition build and hybrid builds and look at effective health and healing/s. You'll find minstrel and trailblazer are off the charts for effective health (vs power builds) and due to the high toughness they massively distort healing/s as yeah healing is more effective the more you reduce damage taken and they have tons of toughness. Bonus if you have prot and plenty of cleanse which being WvW you have cleansing sigil.

 

[MaLong.2079]

Don't celestial 'wastes' attribute points? I mean, a build that does mainly strike damage should see little benefit from the points put to condition damage and expertise. And a mainly condition build would not benefit much from the points cele puts on power, precision and ferocity, right? If you run a build that don't apply many boons to self  either then the points put on concentration are also wasted.

The only way to get full benefit from cele stats then would be to run a build that uses everything. 😁

Anyway, I think this game cannot be balanced. 😵

[ArchonWing.9480]

15 minutes ago, MaLong.2079 said:

Don't celestial 'wastes' attribute points? I mean, a build that does mainly strike damage should see little benefit from the points put to condition damage and expertise. And a mainly condition build would not benefit much from the points cele puts on power, precision and ferocity, right? If you run a build that don't apply many boons to self  either then the points put on concentration are also wasted.

The only way to get full benefit from cele stats then would be to run a build that uses everything. 😁

Anyway, I think this game cannot be balanced. 😵

Cele builds only work if you have good might generation. That way you can compensate for the low power/condi damage. Adding 300-600 power has a bigger impact if your base power was lower. If your build also inflicts condis they do a bit more damage, and expertise also benefits nondamaging condi effects like chill, cripple, and immobolize. There's also crap like poison and weakness

But because cele gives concentration now, that also means might and whatever else they can pull lasts longer and that can be a annoying thing to fight.

In general they will benefit classes with low hp and thus less overall stats like ele or guardian because they have 11k in zerk and that's not particularly usable. And even marauder with 17k health and base armor may get killed very fast if caught off guard.

Also apparently some people don't run condi clears, so I guess expertise is a decent damage boost. Whether we should care about that or not is another issue. I'm not really sure what kind of roamer likes dying to a few bleed ticks over a minute but everyone plays the game differently.

Edited March 30, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Justine.6351]

Celestial stat is more a social problem than anything. Its a good stat set for average players but the good players gave up being good at the game and decided they needed the training wheels too.

 

Average players need more defensive stats,

Good players should be swapping out the defensive stats for offensive.

 

But that's not what is happening ever since the huge power nerfed update.

[Zyreva.1078]

36 minutes ago, MaLong.2079 said:

Don't celestial 'wastes' attribute points? I mean, a build that does mainly strike damage should see little benefit from the points put to condition damage and expertise. And a mainly condition build would not benefit much from the points cele puts on power, precision and ferocity, right? If you run a build that don't apply many boons to self  either then the points put on concentration are also wasted.

The only way to get full benefit from cele stats then would be to run a build that uses everything. 😁

Anyway, I think this game cannot be balanced. 😵

That's like arguing anything with "condition dmg" is bad because it "wastes stats" on a build that does not have any dmg condition application. Srsly, ofc you want to use cele with a build that makes use of all the attributes. And there is no downside in doing so, that wouldf justify the huge gain in overall stats that cele grants in comparison to any other attribute combination. Cele builds don't just offer "everything". It is too much of everything and we aren't talking about some minor imbalance here. It's like up to 75% more stats. It is baffeling how anyone could argue a disparity that big is balanced, just because you can still create bad builds with it.

Cele was balanced before the buffs. Now it isn't.

Edited March 30, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zyreva.1078]

17 minutes ago, Justine.6351 said:

Celestial stat is more a social problem than anything. Its a good stat set for average players but the good players gave up being good at the game and decided they needed the training wheels too.

 

Average players need more defensive stats,

Good players should be swapping out the defensive stats for offensive.

 

But that's not what is happening ever since the huge power nerfed update.

There is no point in trading defensive stats for offensive ones when you can just get both and end up with far superior builds overall. Cele is too tanky to die to glass builds and with too much dmg for glass builds to survive. So why bother?

Cele can even end up with more dmg output than zerk or dire/tb, because the hybrid nature of the dmg makes it harder to hard counter (also might stacking) and the defensive stats allow more agressive play.

Edited March 30, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[somsom.5201]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

hard counter

yawn

Some builds do better with that stat mix and some don't. Not everything needs to be min-maxed. It opens up playstyles that some classes straight-up would NOT be able to have otherwise.

There's ALWAYS a counter: figure it out, rather than crying about the build someone else uses.