When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

I was under the impression that WvW was a army vs army sort of game mode and sPvP was for that smallscale pvp stuff. I didn't realize dueling was so important in WvW.

Well, that's because some people lost a duel and feel they need to change the game. Or they couldn't blindslide someone in 2s, so no montage.

A lot of people also have no idea how to build a character or the reactions to play a glassier build, and to be fair cele is an excellent crutch for that. That doesn't mean it should be nerfed though.

In other situations, certain classes and builds have cele as the best choice. But there's always going to be a good choice. Sometimes that just mean the traits/builds are.

And yea, it's also completely irrelevant where it matters. Even in smaller team fights (5-8 or so), what happens often is the cele bunker's team all die and they run away. Then of course they think they're the best players when all they did was sacrifice the team, playing a selfish build that neither heals nor damages that much.

Of course, stats are just one part of the equation. And some classes also have less stats to begin with. The idea that this ele is a coward for having some defensive gear to put them at 15k health when they still have less health than so called "brave" 6 classes in full zerk  with 3-4 runaway skills is a bit silly.

But hey, I'd rather deal with Cele enemies than small groups that have full on supports, so....

 

Edited March 31, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[DeceiverX.8361]

It's never getting directly nerfed.

It's strong because power builds do no damage thanks to the damage traitlines providing no actual expontential gain for deeper investment, and boons in their current form break the game so badly that any kind of attempt to invest deeply in a build rather than investing wide for all those free stats results in a ton of wasted potential at any given moment.  Paired with T7 food that provides more than most armor parts in stats, there's no incentive to build anything but "enough" damage and sustain to grind your enemies down.

If not celestial, it's Dire/TB/Knight+Cav on a boon build, etc.

Nobody wants to admit it and PvE players would scream endlessly if they did it, but boons need to be nerfed back to 2013 levels, power coefs brought up for a lot of skills, and T7 food need to be removed from the format entirely to actually make build investment even remotely meaningful.

 

[Kozumi.5816]

12 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

If WvW was designed for zerg vs zerg fights only, why are there so many different objectives, that incentivise players to spread out? Why are most objectives designed in a way that even a single player can contest them easily?

Just because the majority of players are looking for the easiest way to play the game mode, doesn't mean that's how everyone is supposed to play.

I don't think WvW is designed for anything.

[Sahne.6950]

23 hours ago, Sahne.6950 said:

truth said, it is originally designed for bigger scale fights. But we cant just ignore that (yes i am actually saying this...) a big part, if not the majority of people, dont actually play in large zergs. Some dont like it, and some cant play in zergs because they dont play on primetime or are on a server that just doesnt have good commanders or any commanders at all. On my previous server you could be happy if you had a commander for 2 hours of the day. And the other 22 hours?

You simply cant ignore every aspect of WvW except 50v50 fights, you just cant. Alot of people find enjoyment in Roaming and those people are a big assett to every server.

Just quoting myself again... because i see so many people here that think WvW is only Big fights.... please guys read that carefully and let it sink in. This is the truth and nothing but the truth. You simply cant ignore the aspect of roaming in WvW.... YOU JUST CANT!

WvW needs to be balanced for Smallscale aswell. Period.   The problem here is that you need to balance smallscale, without making things useless in Zergs and the other way around. But simply ignoring a big aspect of the mode because YOU think it is not designed for it.... is pretty selfish and shortsighted.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[bluberblasen.9684]

14 hours ago, DeceiverX.8361 said:

T7 food need to be removed from the format entirely to actually make build investment even remotely meaningful.

 

i don't think t7 food is a problem.

before some patch ( 2015 ) ??? there was  "- 40 condition duration food". that was great for me. Anet nerfed it to "-20"

 

best roamer food is still 40 % endurance and might on dodge ( its t5 or t6 food )

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by bluberblasen.9684

[Swagger.1459]

1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

Just quoting myself again... because i see so many people here that think WvW is only Big fights.... please guys read that carefully and let it sink in. This is the truth and nothing but the truth. You simply cant ignore the aspect of roaming in WvW.... YOU JUST CANT!

WvW needs to be balanced for Smallscale aswell. Period.   The problem here is that you need to balance smallscale, without making things useless in Zergs and the other way around. But simply ignoring a big aspect of the mode because YOU think it is not designed for it.... is pretty selfish and shortsighted.

That’s not true. Nobody is saying “wvw is only big fights”. What we are saying is that wvw was modeled after and drew inspiration from the 3 way large scale battles that DAoC introduced. That’s the primary design intent of the mode, to offer a place where mass amounts of players can team up and fight. Everything else is secondary. 
 

If players want a controlled environment for “fair” fights, then the devs devoted time and resources to another mode for that. It’s called Structured Player vs Player..  Up to 5v5. Gear limitations. Players can even make their own duel room and duel to their heart’s content, and impose whatever rules and restrictions they want. 
 

The problem is the people not happy with an outcome of a duel that end up calling for removal or nerf of a gear set to cater to them. That’s not how wvw works. And if it did, then we’d have to nerf 75% of stuff to cater to that crowd, because it won’t stop there. 
 

The other issue is that certain players don’t want to devote the energy to improving their skills to get better. That’s too much effort. It’s much easier for them to ask the devs to change things about the game, than to change themselves. But if players support that mentality, then I support wvw having only 1 gear set so we can avoid these issue in the future and nobody can use the gear complaint again to justify a loss. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

27 minutes ago, Swagger.1459 said:

The problem is the people not happy with an outcome of a duel that end up calling for removal or nerf of a gear set to cater to them. That’s not how wvw works. And if it did, then we’d have to nerf 75% of stuff to cater to that crowd, because it won’t stop there. 
 

Let me make this simple for you to understand with simple math.

An ascended ring with 3-4 statline gives a total of 296 stats, celestial gives a total of 513 total stats. That is 1 whole set + 3/4th of a statline.

Also the fact that again as mentioned before, it gives the same boon duration as minstrels as well as the same condi duration as trailblazers while having the rest of the added bonus stats. 

A spread statline should not be giving so much unchecked, essentially classes that are able to stack might can essentially abuse this to the max while doing damage of glass while being tanky doing damage as condi, with sustain of a support.

There is a reason why D/D ele was so overpowered back in core days, being able to upkeep high boon duration as well as condi duration is the issue with this set.

Then again I'm not surprised people defending this considering how handicapped it can be for MANY builds especially the e-specs in EoD.

With how many of the e-spec work these days, none of the stats of celestial is considered "wasted".

Edited April 1, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Bleikopf.2491]

3 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

An ascended ring with 3-4 statline gives a total of 296 stats, celestial gives a total of 513 total stats. That is 1 whole set + 3/4th of a statline.

An ascended ring with 3 statlines givs a total of 296 stats. An ascended ring with 4 statlines gives a total of 324 stats. There is a trend, in that the less specialized a set is the greater the total number of stats are to make up for it. It's just hard to argue how many more stats you get. But you get more.

11 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

A spread statline should not be giving so much unchecked, essentially classes that are able to stack might can essentially abuse this to the max while doing damage of glass while being tanky doing damage as condi, with sustain of a support.

So if a Celestial stacks might they get to do as much damage as a glassy power class..
..without might? Or with might?

13 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

There is a reason why D/D ele was so overpowered back in core days, being able to upkeep high boon duration as well as condi duration is the issue with this set.

Wasn't core D/D ele before Concentration and Expertise were even stats?

[bluberblasen.9684]

40 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Let me make this simple for you to understand with simple math.

An ascended ring with 3-4 statline gives a total of 296 stats, celestial gives a total of 513 total stats. That is 1 whole set + 3/4th of a statline.

Also the fact that again as mentioned before, it gives the same boon duration as minstrels as well as the same condi duration as trailblazers while having the rest of the added bonus stats. 

A spread statline should not be giving so much unchecked, essentially classes that are able to stack might can essentially abuse this to the max while doing damage of glass while being tanky doing damage as condi, with sustain of a support.

There is a reason why D/D ele was so overpowered back in core days, being able to upkeep high boon duration as well as condi duration is the issue with this set.

Then again I'm not surprised people defending this considering how handicapped it can be for MANY builds especially the e-specs in EoD.

With how many of the e-spec work these days, none of the stats of celestial is considered "wasted".

Sorry bro or sis,

Dual dagger elem was never over powered.

It was the conditions patch 2015 March until July '15 what makes it over powered for only 3 or 4 month.

Than anet nerfed the kitten out of elem... But they never realized that it was the stupid conditions change not the elem.

 

And than elem was years mid level until Weaver was important.. And again anet nerfed the kitten out of Weaver instead reverting the 2015 conditions patch.

 

And this was all before the celestial buff patch.

It's not the new all Stat celestial what makes classes op its the players whixh are forced to play it because every patch favorites condition builds.

YOU ARE FORCED TO PLAY DEFENSE to survive conditions.

Just revert the condition to post 2015 and revert celestial back to all stats without boon duration and condition duration.

 

 

 

[Salt Mode.3780]

19 minutes ago, bluberblasen.9684 said:

 

YOU ARE FORCED TO PLAY DEFENSE to survive conditions.

Just revert the condition to post 2015 and revert celestial back to all stats without boon duration and condition duration.

 

That is precisely the point, celestial was fine without the boon duration and condi duration, adding both of them allowed classes that can uptime might stack to start hitting like glass cannons both power and condi while keeping the tankiness of the other defensive statlines.

Its not uncommon for classes to be able to self stack might to 25, however its ridiculous if you add the fact that classes are able to keep prot uptime to 1 min +. With the damage nerf on the February patch it only made protection that much stronger along with defensive stats.

With ANET's recent nerf to wind's of disenchantment for who knows why, there are less and less boon strips in the game. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Salt Mode.3780

[Xenash.1245]

I think you all should remember that celestial gear is good at playing the attrition game vs other players 1v1, but it really starts to fall off when you add more players into the mix. So I really have to question what the point of this conversation is when we're talking about WvW, the mode where you're generally supposed to group with other players to get things done.

Or is this all just about duelers using WvW as a second version of PvP?

Edited April 1, 2022 by Xenash.1245

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Xenash.1245 said:

I think you all should remember that celestial gear is good at playing the attrition game vs other players 1v1, but it really starts to fall off when you add more players into the mix. So I really have to question what the point of this conversation is when we're talking about WvW, the mode where you're generally supposed to group with other players to get things done.

Or is this all just about duelers using WvW as a second version of PvP?

When entering grp content in PvE it does say how many players are recommended and PvP matches don't even start without a certain amount of players, but where does it say i'm supposed to grp in WvW?

Srsly tho, the whole "wvw is all 'bout zergs" isn't only untrue, it is also completely irrelevant for this discussion, so why does it keep getting brought up? Lack of actual arguments?

Edited April 1, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Xenash.1245]

1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

When entering grp content in PvE it does say how many players are recommended and PvP matches don't even start without a certain amount of players, but where does it say i'm supposed to grp in WvW?

Srsly tho, the whole "wvw is all 'bout zergs" isn't only untrue, it is also completely irrelevant for this discussion, so why does it keep getting brought up? Lack of actual arguments?

I just said you generally group with other players to get things done, that doesn't automatically mean I'm saying everyone has to be in a mindless deathball in WvW. But if I did give you that impression I apologize.

That being said I don't really know how you'd ever get much done solo in WvW outside of taking camps without even a few people responding, unless you're playing at the deadest of dead hours. Sure taking a camp/keep solo is certainly possible, but the likelihood of it happening during regular hours is questionable at best I'd say.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Xenash.1245

[ArchonWing.9480]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

When entering grp content in PvE it does say how many players are recommended and PvP matches don't even start without a certain amount of players, but where does it say i'm supposed to grp in WvW?

Srsly tho, the whole "wvw is all 'bout zergs" isn't only untrue, it is also completely irrelevant for this discussion, so why does it keep getting brought up? Lack of actual arguments?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you will be catered to. You can also join WvW as an uplevel too.

Single player balance has never been relevant outside of story and all endgame content consists of groups of 5 or more. Numerous skills end in this game affect 5 of your allies. Even something as basic as siege building usually requires more than 1 player to build efficiently.

Plus that kind of balancing will lead to all kinds of stupidity. Should we buff minstrel gear because it can't win 1v1s?

In practice there is also no way to forbid anyone extra from jumping into a fight either. In other words just because you don't want to group, doesn't actually prevent anyone from grouping with you or your enemy.

And finally, a single player has a rather small impact. A single player's ability to 1v1, while relevant to success, is also even less of an impact.

Edited April 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Zyreva.1078]

2 hours ago, Xenash.1245 said:

I just said you generally group with other players to get things done, that doesn't automatically mean I'm saying everyone has to be in a mindless deathball in WvW. But if I did give you that impression I apologize.

That being said I don't really know how you'd ever get much done solo in WvW outside of taking camps without even a few people responding, unless you're playing at the deadest of dead hours. Sure taking a camp/keep solo is certainly possible, but the likelihood of it happening during regular hours is questionable at best I'd say.

I can easily flip (or defend) camps, sentries, kill players, dolyaks and sometimes keep 5+ enemies busy all by myself. Even at prime time in T1. A single player more or less within a zerg has way less of an impact. In a small grp we contest towers and keeps (yes, sometimes even t3) and it often takes an entire zerg to stop us, which means we either take stuff or at least prevent a much larger grp of enemies from doing something else.

55 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Just because you can, doesn't mean you will be catered to. You can also join WvW as an uplevel too.

Single player balance has never been relevant outside of story and all endgame content consists of groups of 5 or more. Numerous skills end in this game affect 5 of your allies. Even something as basic as siege building usually requires more than 1 player to build efficiently.

Plus that kind of balancing will lead to all kinds of stupidity. Should we buff minstrel gear because it can't win 1v1s?

In practice there is also no way to forbid anyone extra from jumping into a fight either. In other words just because you don't want to group, doesn't actually prevent anyone from grouping with you or your enemy.

And finally, a single player has a rather small impact. A single player's ability to 1v1, while relevant to success, is also even less of an impact.

Did anyone say minstrels should be buffed? Did anyone say WvW should get balanced arround uplevels? No? Then why bring up completely unrelated stuff?

Fact is, cele was perfectly viable before the buffs, which already made it better than like 90% of other attribute combinations. Fact is, the buffs it recived were huge and resulted in 75% more stats than 3-stat gear. Fact is, cele outperforms everything else for solo play, is very dominant in small scale and outperforms most other combinations anywhere, simply due to the sheer amount of stats it provides. It is not balanced, no matter how you look at it and as such it should be adressed. If it's not used in zerg play, then zerg play is irrelevant for this discussion.

Saying cele is fine or even underpowered because it isn't used for zergs is like saying ranger and thief need massive buffs? Let's just buff slb dmg and reduce cd of dolyak stance. Oh and make the entire lb kit unblockable. Would that be your idea of balance?

And regarding impact of a single player, see above. Stacking is the best way to win fights, but not the best way to play the map.

Edited April 2, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[ArchonWing.9480]

42 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Did anyone say minstrels should be buffed? Did anyone say WvW should get balanced arround uplevels? No? Then why bring up completely unrelated stuff?

That's the logical conclusion of bringing in 1v1 balance.

If you want to nerf celestial because it's good in 1v1s then it is equally as reasonable to buff minstrel in 1v1s because it's not.

42 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Saying cele is fine or even underpowered because it isn't used for zergs is like saying ranger and thief need massive buffs?

Maybe not massive buffs. But why is it acceptable that 2 classes get autokicked from squads? The fact that you think it's either that or buff the entire slb kit to the sky is silly. There are plenty of unused utilities that could use a buff.

Edited April 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Coldtart.4785]

Condi bunkers have been the strongest roamers ever since rabid was the best stat for them but apparently it's all celestial's fault.

[Salt Mode.3780]

44 minutes ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Condi bunkers have been the strongest roamers ever since rabid was the best stat for them but apparently it's all celestial's fault.

Rabid doesnt allow you to boon stack which is the problem with this meta.

[Shroud.2307]

I feel like a lot of people are missing the point here.

Whether Celestial is good in 1 v 1 and bad in zergs or not shouldn't make it exempt from being balanced.

I frequently play core Power Engineer and meme people with 20k Grenade Barrage, 15k Pry Bar, 10 - 14k Throw Wrench in 1 v 1's. It's easy and it completely shuts down a lot of glassy builds. 
It's also generally terrible in zergs. And it's also core Engineer which is especially bad as Power. 
The point is that that kind of damage is ridiculous and many people have asked for nerfs to those things.
Those complaints may not always be well founded - the biggest issue with Grenade Barrage is Explosive Entrance, and to a lesser extent Grenadier - but their complaints are valid even if targeting the wrong thing.

It's the same idea here.

Celestial is superb in 1 v 1's on a lot of builds, and not so great in zergs. 
Typically, the right thing to do would be to target the problem traits and skills within each class rather than nerfing a stat.
But Celestial is a special case because it's so bloated, and it single handedly makes every other hybrid stat irrelevant.

It doesn't matter where it does or does not excel, and what can or cannot take advantage of it. Bottom line is that the stat gives too much and it was a good pick before it was changed.

______________________________________________________________________

Personally, I feel that it should be nerfed by reducing each number by 1 or 2.
eg.
Currently a Ascended Celestial backpiece is +28 to every stat. Instead change it to +27 or +26.

Though that nerf seems small, it is quite significant when fully investing in it. You can even see the difference here between Exotic and Ascended with Exotic only being -1 stat difference.
Granted, the Ascended version is using Infusions.

EDIT
Also want to add since my first comment was buried,
I don't think this is something that's in immediate need of being adjusted. It doesn't hurt WvW outside of really annoying roaming builds. It's not a big deal.
I just think some people are defending this because it has a niche, but nothing should be allowed free reign for that reason. If that were the case, Thieves would never get nerfed because they're bad in zergs.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Shroud.2307
Formatting

[Zyreva.1078]

9 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

That's the logical conclusion of bringing in 1v1 balance.

If you want to nerf celestial because it's good in 1v1s then it is equally as reasonable to buff minstrel in 1v1s because it's not.

No. Nobody is asking to balance only arround 1vs1, that would be equally silly as balancing only arround zergs. What i'm saying is different roles and playstyles need to be considered when looking at balance and it's basically what they have been doing (or trying to do) since release. Certain classes and many builds have never ever been balanced arround zergs and gear should not be an exception.

Quote

Maybe not massive buffs. But why is it acceptable that 2 classes get autokicked from squads? The fact that you think it's either that or buff the entire slb kit to the sky is silly. There are plenty of unused utilities that could use a buff.

For the same reason not all classes need to be top tier solo roamers. Because they are good at something else. And "getting autokicked" is quite an exaggeration anyway, many squads don't really care what someone plays and are just happy about more numbers, and it's not like thief and  ranger are unplayable in zergs.

8 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

Condi bunkers have been the strongest roamers ever since rabid was the best stat for them but apparently it's all celestial's fault.

Rabid is terrible and cele is generally superior to pure condi builds nowadays (tho it seems like many cele builds are commonly mistaken for pure condi, certainly happens with the build i tend to build).

Edited April 2, 2022 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Hotride.2187]

9 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

It doesn't hurt WvW outside of really annoying roaming builds. It's not a big deal.
I just think some people are defending this because it has a niche, but nothing should be allowed free reign for that reason. If that were the case, Thieves would never get nerfed because they're bad in zergs.

The only profession I've not seen roam on cele in the last month was warrior. Though maybe that is because there are overall few wars.

Cele fb, weaver, tempest, scrapper, renegade, mirage I see all the time - more roaming on cele than otherwise.

Less common but I still see them occasionally, cele harbringer (in both eod spec betas and now), cele boonbeast, cele druid.

I even dueled a cele specter a few days ago and that was obnoxious without end (I didn't know until I asked, though I was guessing after a few min into the duel..).

I don't think its niche and its extremely slow and boring to fight. Its so unfun that I avoid players who I know are playing cele even at duel spot. Though I guess the game has so much cheese, if you start fixing any of it the game will fall apart.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Arheundel.6451]

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

The only profession I've not seen roam on cele in the last month was warrior. Though maybe that is because there are overall few wars.

Cele fb, weaver, tempest, scrapper, renegade, mirage I see all the time - more roaming on cele than otherwise.

Less common but I still see them occasionally, cele harbringer (in both eod spec betas and now), cele boonbeast, cele druid.

I even dueled a cele specter a few days ago and that was obnoxious without end (I didn't know until I asked, though I was guessing after a few min into the duel..).

I don't think its niche and its extremely slow and boring to fight. Its so unfun that I avoid players who I know are playing cele even at duel spot. Though I guess the game has so much cheese, if you start fixing any of it the game will fall apart.

And how do you know what people are running? ...I have been accused of running celestial when I was 80% marauder with 2 cav trinkets...it's safe to assume that 80% of claims in this thread are just from people getting outplayed than blaming gear and whatelse for their shortcomings as player

[ArchonWing.9480]

24 minutes ago, Arheundel.6451 said:

And how do you know what people are running? ...I have been accused of running celestial when I was 80% marauder with 2 cav trinkets...it's safe to assume that 80% of claims in this thread are just from people getting outplayed than blaming gear and whatelse for their shortcomings as player

Shhhh.... before they ask to nerf marauder cuz it has more stats than zerker. Then they'll go after cavalier next.

Edited April 2, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[Junkpile.7439]

Celestial kind of weak. Only good if spec puke condi, power damage, healing and boons. Just look what specs use celestial and nerf them.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Junkpile.7439

[hedap.5801]

38 minutes ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Celestial kind of weak. Only good if spec puke condi, power damage, healing and boons. Just look what specs use celestial and nerf them.

nerfing a spec around one stat prefix 🤔 what could go wrong. 

 

revert celestial change 🙂