When is Celestial getting nerfed?

[Virdo.1540]

Cele is not some sort of Jack-of-all-Trades. 

Its can do everything, but poorly (like herald did in PvE pre EoD)

 

It has a worse support than a supporter

it has a worse dmg than either full condi or power dmg builds (like a trailblazer scourge)

it has worse sustain than full tank classes

 

There are only some specs that can make somewhat of an use of those stats, but some "Broken builds" doesnt come through cele stats, it comes through traits. Nerfing cele is bad because its already meh on its own.

[hedap.5801]

2 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

There are only some specs that can make somewhat of an use of those stats, but some "Broken builds" doesnt come through cele stats, it comes through traits. Nerfing cele is bad because its already meh on its own.

 

'broken builds' what is a broken build tho? people here claim that perma 25 might with everyboon in the game Engi, and 700 of each stat is balanced. where do u draw the line?

 

also, u CANNOT balance a spec/traits around celestial stat, because the non-celestial builds that are 'OK' get hurt in the process.

[Virdo.1540]

2 minutes ago, hedap.5801 said:

 

'broken builds' what is a broken build tho? people here claim that perma 25 might with everyboon in the game Engi, and 700 of each stat is balanced. where do u draw the line?

 

also, u CANNOT balance a spec/traits around celestial stat, because the non-celestial builds that are 'OK' get hurt in the process.

as example traits that make use of "heal per boon"-traits. How to lower it without hurting other builds? Lower healing coefficient.

 

Broken are builds that are sustain & dmg wise like Condi herald pre resistance nerf

[Dralor.3701]

Honestly only think cele kind of breaks on one class but I know people would just say the class is useless without it, had been over nerfed, and/or crucify me.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

5 hours ago, Clownmug.8357 said:

 

Huh? So it's under-utilized yet needs to be nerfed?

Okaaaay let me rephrease it.

Only chosen ones aka superior classes are allowed to scale with it while the other specs suck terribly at it and can't produce the same amount of unjust nuisance like these chosen few classes.
I once saw two celesial wannabe roamers duel for 40 minutes, the most boring shitshow ever so if everyone would run these stats and with similar degree of effectiveness it'd become simply boring and souldraining.
 

[Hotride.2187]

2 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

I once saw two celesial wannabe roamers duel for 40 minutes, the most boring shitshow ever so if everyone would run these stats and with similar degree of effectiveness it'd become simply boring and souldraining.

I'm waiting for this to become the norm for roamers, since I'm running into more and more cele builds. Maybe when the cele "its fine" players start not getting kills, the stat will get some dev attention.

[Vasdamas Anklast.1607]

10 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I'm waiting for this to become the norm for roamers, since I'm running into more and more cele builds. Maybe when the cele "its fine" players start not getting kills, the stat will get some dev attention.

Well one could say SOME cele roamer builds got weaker after the update that nerfed power damage spikes across the board. Thing is, if one benefits from from cele stats these days it's usually those specs that are condi heavy by default like core necro roamer. So it already had dev attention in a way xD It's just that condi that never got shaved.

It's a bit offtopic but I believe that most annoyance of dealing with necro roamers comes from their high weakness uptime. Got damaging condis on you? Gotta cleanse. Got weakness on you? Either waste cleanse/resistance it or wait it out else you deal zero damage. Good to go? Well kitten, seems like that guy has got some hefty ammount TOUGHNESS.
Meanwhile they just pressure you non stop lol

Edited April 5, 2022 by Vasdamas Anklast.1607

[Shroud.2307]

4 hours ago, Dralor.3701 said:

Honestly only think cele kind of breaks on one class but I know people would just say the class is useless without it, had been over nerfed, and/or crucify me.

Harbinger?

Whether yes or no, I think the spec takes too much advantage of Cele and is definitely one of the ones that gets a lot of benefit from it.

IMHO, specs shouldn't ever be able to access everything. 
Stuff like; Harbinger, Soulbeast, Renegade, etc. have; good Power damage, high Condition application with lots of cover Conditions, lots of passive self-applied Boons, often easy Might stacking, good cleanse, moderate - high CC, moderate - high regen of some sort.

If Harbinger Elixirs didn't apply Boons and did something else, and if Blight was a fixed regen % per stack, Cele would be a lot less good on it, and would force most of them to pick Spite for the Might stacks, but would mean they'd either need to commit to more of a Power build or lose a lot of their sustain potential. 

[Mik.3401]

Every legit celestial build must assure permanent 25 stacks of might and there are several builds like this. So in result you have like 1700 in all stats plus 2.5k++ power and 1.7k+ condition damage (sorry these are Just rough Numbers basing on what i remember).

So in result you get ok/decent stats across the board, power like a power build and condi damage like a condi build. Some specs can also spam additional perks like thousands of boons and super speed (though the latter has been nerfed  thankfully).

I think it is inherently overpowered  because it marries the best of both worlds. Of course other tanky options like trailblazer can slap and take a lot of beating too, but at the end they do not have the power spike cele can attain. And such spike can make you win.

And power builds are completely outclassed 

 

[Telgum.6071]

7 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I'm waiting for this to become the norm for roamers, since I'm running into more and more cele builds. Maybe when the cele "its fine" players start not getting kills, the stat will get some dev attention.

+1. According to this subforum, apparently being immortal is now fine because it comes from your build and not from the absurd stack of vitality, toughness, concentration and healing power provided by Celestial. So just gotta spam it and abuse it until the devs notice.

[Clownmug.8357]

9 hours ago, Vasdamas Anklast.1607 said:

Okaaaay let me rephrease it.

Only chosen ones aka superior classes are allowed to scale with it while the other specs suck terribly at it and can't produce the same amount of unjust nuisance like these chosen few classes.
I once saw two celesial wannabe roamers duel for 40 minutes, the most boring shitshow ever so if everyone would run these stats and with similar degree of effectiveness it'd become simply boring and souldraining.
 

 

Sounds like profession balance would be the real problem in that case.

[Stx.4857]

On 3/29/2022 at 7:25 PM, Shroud.2307 said:

It's overstacked and limits diversity because playing hybrid always means Cele is the best option unless you want to sacrifice defenses.

Some classes take more advantage of the stat than others. It isn't good on everything, and what it is good on it's mostly about making it a very sustainable duelist and outnumbered fighter with a good deal of killing power.
It is extremely forgiving on what ever you slap it on, and it gets stronger the more of it you use. Personally when I use Cele I use Cele everything, mix of Expertise, Concentration, Power, and Condition damage infusions, and Divinity runes, because it's just moar everythingz.

To be fair, it isn't amazing in group settings. It's mostly an issue smaller scale and solo. I don't think the stat is in dire need of nerfs, it doesn't really effect WvW outside of making a lot of unfun to fight roaming builds.
But the stat is absolutely overstacked.

I think the best way to fix it would be to just reduce the numbers by 1 or 2 all down the line.

Omg the horror..

 

A stat combination is useful in certain situations.

[coro.3176]

The amount of defense cele provides is overstated. Here's an example of incoming power damage while roaming. (I'm running cele gear)

https://imgur.com/a/p8oPYBY

That's 8k damage in a ~0.5s window (2 out of 10 rapid fire hits), and it's a pretty average for a power sb. All told, the cele gear is buying maybe an extra 1 or 2 hits - possibly enough to not die before stun break and double dodge. It provides maybe an extra 500-1000 healing per cycle, and maybe an extra 1-4s of boon duration depending on the skill. That's hardly OP when considering the kind of burst damage it's facing in return.

Considering I need to get into melee range, tag the opponent with condi, then dance around and survive for ~15-20s (way more if they cleanse), all while they threaten to kill me if they ever land 1 or 2 good hits, I think it's a fair trade.

 

[Mungo Zen.9364]

I love this thread, as after the Cele changes last year, I was told in several forums that Cele was 'just bad' and 'was never going to be good enough'.  Thanks for all the players showing that Cele can be a very strong choice for a variety of Profession builds, in multiple game modes.

You can't argue that the sheer number of stat points Cele provides could elevate many profession builds to viability in different game modes.  I have tried to abuse it in various non-Meta Hybrid and/or Support builds, in WvW and PvE, and had a mixture of success.  More so, I ended up enjoying Professions and eSpecs that I really didn't enjoy playing with 'proper' builds.

[Zyreva.1078]

16 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Cele is not some sort of Jack-of-all-Trades. 

Its can do everything, but poorly (like herald did in PvE pre EoD)

That's a very twisted view at cele and ignores that fact that you always gain more than you lose.

16 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

It has a worse support than a supporter

No. It has less healing than a (minstrel) support. That's it. But support is about more than just raw healing. Cele offers the same boon output, it offers the same or more utility (via expertise for more debilitating condis), and more dmg. A lot more dmg. When considering that dead players are a lot less harmful than alive players, the latter could also be considered some sort of "support".

16 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

it has a worse dmg than either full condi or power dmg builds (like a trailblazer scourge)

It has less condi dmg than full condi builds (which can be hard countered by high amounts of cleanses) and it has less direct dmg than pure power builds (which get screwed over by prot/toughness/weakness/stone heart/... and tend to be a lot squishier.) But overall dmg output of cele is absolutely compareable or even higher than that of  "pure" builds and you are a lot less likely to run into hard counters, while the defensive stats enable a more agressive playstyle. Only exception to this are dps builds for organised zerg gameplay, where condis are generally rendered useless and survivability is taken care of by dedicated supports and sheer numbers.

16 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

it has worse sustain than full tank classes

What's a full "tank" build even supposed to do?

Ultimatively you shouldn't ever need more sustain than what cele offers and it is always more useful to bring some dmg to counterpressure and kill your opponents instead of letting them freecast until you run out of cooldowns and die anyway.

16 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

 

There are only some specs that can make somewhat of an use of those stats, but some "Broken builds" doesnt come through cele stats, it comes through traits. Nerfing cele is bad because its already meh on its own.

There are plenty of specs that make good use of cele. And while cele isn't always the only reason that makes something op, having that huge amount of additional stats over anything else is certainly a huge factor. Thinking that up to 75% more stats (before factoring in "stats" from boons, mind you) does not matter or "is meh on its own" is ridiculous.

[Gwaihir.1745]

3 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

That's a very twisted view at cele and ignores that fact that you always gain more than you lose.

No. It has less healing than a (minstrel) support. That's it. But support is about more than just raw healing. Cele offers the same boon output, it offers the same or more utility (via expertise for more debilitating condis), and more dmg. A lot more dmg. When considering that dead players are a lot less harmful than alive players, the latter could also be considered some sort of "support".

It has less condi dmg than full condi builds (which can be hard countered by high amounts of cleanses) and it has less direct dmg than pure power builds (which get screwed over by prot/toughness/weakness/stone heart/... and tend to be a lot squishier.) But overall dmg output of cele is absolutely compareable or even higher than that of  "pure" builds and you are a lot less likely to run into hard counters, while the defensive stats enable a more agressive playstyle. Only exception to this are dps builds for organised zerg gameplay, where condis are generally rendered useless and survivability is taken care of by dedicated supports and sheer numbers.

What's a full "tank" build even supposed to do?

Ultimatively you shouldn't ever need more sustain than what cele offers and it is always more useful to bring some dmg to counterpressure and kill your opponents instead of letting them freecast until you run out of cooldowns and die anyway.

There are plenty of specs that make good use of cele. And while cele isn't always the only reason that makes something op, having that huge amount of additional stats over anything else is certainly a huge factor. Thinking that up to 75% more stats (before factoring in "stats" from boons, mind you) does not matter or "is meh on its own" is ridiculous.

 

Games are not won with raw stats. Raw stats are only a small portion of how damage functions. Multipliers are always superior.

 

For example guardians can go cele, but that means taking the accompanying traitlines and dedicating at least 2 grandmaster traits to actually have the burning damage do something. This means losing about -25% total multipliers to your power damage, losing a stunbreak, stability, 25% crit damage and ~8 might stacks.

 

Leaving you with low burn ticks and low crits struggling to take effect. Opponents can simply stall your burns out longer to manage cd's while countering the low power hits with standard healing. Theres like 2 offending cele builds in the game, the rest of us dont run it for this reason.

 

 

[Zyreva.1078]

36 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

The amount of defense cele provides is overstated.

Yea, ~ 30% less direct dmg taken, ~ 30% more healing, a good chunk of additional hp and up to 40% higher uptime on defensive boons all together barely matters. Right ...

Also want to tell me protection is useless, sic'em is a garbage dmg buff and healing is overrated in general, because dmg is higher?

[Gwaihir.1745]

8 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Yea, ~ 30% less direct dmg taken, ~ 30% more healing, a good chunk of additional hp and up to 40% higher uptime on defensive boons all together barely matters. Right ...

Also want to tell me protection is useless, sic'em is a garbage dmg buff and healing is overrated in general, because dmg is higher?

 

Guardians defensive boons outside of fb are short durations anyways. And offensive boons are only needed when you engage so they dont gain a full 40% true benfit.

Also thats not how multipliers works. Losing a 25% multiplier is not 25% damage lost as your first statement implies. Hp is close enough to marauders to not matter, and far less than dire so thats not really a valid stance.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Gwaihir.1745

[Zyreva.1078]

33 minutes ago, Gwaihir.1745 said:

 

Games are not won with raw stats. Raw stats are only a small portion of how damage functions. Multipliers are always superior.

You aren't forced to give up any traits or skills for cele builds. You should only do so, if it's actually worth doing, which depends on the specific build and situation more than just the gear.

I'm not familiar enough with guardian to provide an actual example, but i know cele guards are pretty decent for smallscale, due to the support they can provide in addition to their decent hybrid dmg output with both being baked into the class anyway. While cele guard might have less dmg than pure dps variants (still a lot more than minstrel), the latter tend to lack survivability and support compared to cele. Which ofc is less relevant in organised zergs, where pure power (or minstrel) still tends to be they way to go. But everywhere else not so much.

21 minutes ago, Gwaihir.1745 said:

 

Guardians defensive boons outside of fb are short durations anyways. And offensive boons are only needed when you engage so they dont gain a full 40% true benfit.

Boon duration tends to be more valuable for short duration boons - and those are usually the high impact ones - because you are less likely on overstacking those. And you only need offensive boons "only on engage" if you onepush your enemy. Which suggests easy fights ...

 

21 minutes ago, Gwaihir.1745 said:

Also thats not how multipliers works. Losing a 25% multiplier is not 25% damage lost as your first statement implies. Hp is close enough to marauders to not matter, and far less than dire so thats not really a valid stance.

I never implied losing a 25% dmg modifier results in 25% dmg lost (it is less). And yes, if you look only at hp your statement is true, but what about all the other stats? High hp alone isn't very useful if you can't recover from dmg taken and that's where all the other stuff comes in very handy. Defensive stats reinforce each other, so it is better to have a bit of everything instead of stacking only one or two of them, similar with offensive direct dmg stats (probably the main reason why zerk and minstrel are still relevant and not garbage like 99% of other stat combinations that aren't cele).

[coro.3176]

2 hours ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Yea, ~ 30% less direct dmg taken, ~ 30% more healing, a good chunk of additional hp and up to 40% higher uptime on defensive boons all together barely matters. Right ...

Also want to tell me protection is useless, sic'em is a garbage dmg buff and healing is overrated in general, because dmg is higher?

It's not providing 30% more value across the board though. Those numbers are filtered through coefficients, and you end up with less impact. Eg.

• My heal goes from 4920 up to 5509 switching to cele, only a ~12% boost.

I'll grant you the boon/condi durations. Those do actually get a ~35% boost. However, even that isn't the whole story. Higher duration aegis doesn't matter  if it's always consumed in the first half of its duration anyway. Likewise, condi lasting longer doesn't matter if it's always cleansed after a few seconds. The main value cele provides to me is making my cover condi last long enough to get cleansed, so my actual damage can tick rather than be erased every time.

GW2 in general is not a game about how big your stats are. It's about how you use them. That zerker soulbeast I linked above will kill me in a single rapid fire if they land even half of it. They're still auto-attacking for 1/4 of my health, and threaten a 1-shot combo in melee. Even if I have more stats, I'm still the underdog in that engagement.

Edited April 5, 2022 by coro.3176

[Kozumi.5816]

Can mods stop moving threads to the wrong forums? This is clearly about celestial stats in WvW and has NOTHING to do with professions.

[Puck.3697]

As someone who plays elementalist. 

Celestial on paper is one of the coolest stats in the game. The concept that the build gives every ability a purpose is awesome. 

However, it becoming overpowered in one content i.e WvWvW. Has some use in open world but generally out performed by trailblazers, and isn't usuable in group content. It's a waste in current iteration and tbh a rejig could solve 2 problems. 

Imho: 

Remove toughness and concentration from the build immediately. 

Nerf the vitality gain alittle bit. 

Increase the ferocity and Condi damage provided by the stat.

See how it fairs. I think it would still see use, things like elementalist will always benefit from this. It may just be more then a OP duelist build. And seeing potiental for hybrid stats on things like PvE imho could be pretty cool. 

[Salt Mode.3780]

31 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

As someone who plays elementalist. 

Celestial on paper is one of the coolest stats in the game. The concept that the build gives every ability a purpose is awesome. 

However, it becoming overpowered in one content i.e WvWvW. Has some use in open world but generally out performed by trailblazers, and isn't usuable in group content. It's a waste in current iteration and tbh a rejig could solve 2 problems. 

Imho: 

Remove toughness and concentration from the build immediately. 

Nerf the vitality gain alittle bit. 

Increase the ferocity and Condi damage provided by the stat.

See how it fairs. I think it would still see use, things like elementalist will always benefit from this. It may just be more then a OP duelist build. And seeing potiental for hybrid stats on things like PvE imho could be pretty cool. 

TBH removing con and expertise would suffice, there was no reason for them. It wouldn't be far fetched if they decided to make a new stat and adding it to celestial without considering lowering the overall stat bloat. 

[Hotride.2187]

43 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Can mods stop moving threads to the wrong forums? This is clearly about celestial stats in WvW and has NOTHING to do with professions.

Yeah, this topic is strictly about small scale wvw.

[Salt Mode.3780]

46 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Can mods stop moving threads to the wrong forums? This is clearly about celestial stats in WvW and has NOTHING to do with professions.

Mods dont play the game enough to understand their decisions, which can be said the same with devs.