Players "sustain is too high"

[Nezekan.2671]

On 3/31/2022 at 1:45 AM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

People won't be happy until it's  back to 2018 and Engis are all useless in squads again.

I mean it doesn't matter how many classes they delete; nobody wants you in the squad.

Get in line engineers. Thief here and I don't remember the last time we were welcome in zergs. Was it core thief days with choking gas spam? I think so. That's before HoT. Maybe 1 year into it as well? I don't exactly remember, but yeah. Been a long time.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Nezekan.2671

[Nezekan.2671]

16 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

it don't think it was good to give scrapper any nerfs. its kinda necessary to chase people that try to run at sight and to hardcounter people who try to get carried by lame condibuilds mainly

 

also, as the mode isn't about equal sized fights in most situations, why even try to balance like this... it gets more annoying with literally each patch to grind kills against quadruple size groups... where's this going to end?

 

about the rev... well as all meta classes, only the best players even bring all of its capabilities even into combat

There is a line that we can have Scrapper not overperforming and also not be irrelevant and I think we need to reach there.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:15 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

People won't be happy until it's  back to 2018 and Engis are all useless in squads again.

I mean it doesn't matter how many classes they delete; nobody wants you in the squad.

A useless class is better than one that ruins an entire form of combat in a game mode(zvz)

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

the entire form of combat? we still talk about Wvw do we? sustain is absolutely the core of largescale fights. u drown in random condis very easy if the sustain sleeps, you'll get stuck 2000 range before combat engaging or die to some rangespike if the sustain is bad too

largescale combat is as explosive as it always was. good groups have dmg, bad ones are just clueless about how to set damage up

 

the things thats broken is overnumber fights, especially on smaller scale. that stuff doesn't work like it used to do pre feb20. low dmg = absurdly hard to cleave and easy to handres outside of structured fights. like if both groups have a comp, normally combat works - and always worked!

 

to really kill engi  and tempest, you'd just have to destroy condisbuilds. currently, those would be big toxic if we didn't have cleanse en masse. u cannot always get enough engis through queue

 

also if u watch new commanders leading any good 50 group against another experienced  50 group... u'll see how bad sustain really is. even if most of your squad is good players, if a com leads u ten times through enemy bombs, and just few sustain players are nooby too, you're done for. fights are onepushes then mostly

 

so if u may have the feel that sustain is broken, u just have no clue how largescale combat in Wvw works

[Lord of the Fire.6870]

On 3/30/2022 at 7:19 PM, RisenHowl.2419 said:

anet "nerfs sustain"

 

players "no not like that!"

 

the forum this week in a nutshell

More like that last 3-4 years. With some random dudes between which  says : Arena.NET do it. I like how you made the game a Pong simulator more of it" xD

[Kozumi.5816]

12 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

so if u may have the feel that sustain is broken, u just have no clue how largescale combat in Wvw works

You're right, people are only running full minstrel pure healer support builds because sustain is bad and doesn't win.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

idk what u're even trying to compare? u have no line of argumenation outside of that u at some point got dropped one time too often while u tried to cloud a zerg...

 

like, in your opinion, should 10 spread out casuals win against 30 casuals running after a tag? yeah, obviously not. you'd also not win that if supports and minstrel classes wouldn't exist.

 

if u want to win fights, get better, don't blame it on stats or group compositions

 

and don't even waste 1 second on believing that u should be able to rambo without any meta knowledge... like, that's just absurd.

 

with old damage coefficients, good players (again: not the casual pvE set player with zero largescale understanding) could win 10v30 clouds without major issues, bc bombs simply bombed hard. a good wells spike + another dmg class could score kills against casual groups with a pretty big chance of success. people didn't have the time to res that commonly bc the damage was actually dangerous.

 

basically, nerfing powerdmg made support FEEL stronger, but it's really not. it's just a messed up basic balance. which makes it extra odd that anet talks about balance stuff the whole time. they destroy balancing to rebuild it and fail at doing so... congratulations

[Hotride.2187]

 

On 4/2/2022 at 1:52 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

so if u may have the feel that sustain is broken, u just have no clue how largescale combat in Wvw works

During the last alliances beta, duel spot had a lot of 20v20 gvgs. It looked like a staring contest, with the groups on top of each other for minutes to get 3-4 players down. Even when XV was doing gvg it still took them 2-3 min to "beat" some other guild (who were strong, to last this long).

Sure, this is midsize and not large. I agree, large fights are "fine". But anything below is busted slow. I dunno about after the nerfs, honestly I didn't see anything that would hurt sustain by much... I don't do gvg so I cant say.

[Burial.1958]

After they nerfed dmg across the board in the feb balance patch they really have to look now on the sustain. To much brainded bunkers everywhere.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

the issue is that they should focus on gutting smallscale sustain while leaving largescale one untouched, which is complicated

 

and again the food/oils and infusions aspect, as well the big stats from ascended/leg gear makes things just work different in Wvw. cannot compare it to spvp balance at all with the normalized and restricted stuff

 

i also don't main gvgs, it shows how much of a hectic slugfest it can be to fish kills against equal groups.

 

weak groups and inequal numbers always lead to quicker finishes... it is, as i often wrote, still tiresome. u need great and disciplined damage players and scourges who do focus bombs, otherwise even 40 vs 60 vs60  (weaker groups or semi clouds or full clouds)  are hard. bc things don't die easy. thats not due to sustain classes and players, simply bc so many selfish stuff is usable in Wvw

 

so basically ALL the issues that people blame sustain on have been created by anet during feb20

[Kozumi.5816]

1 hour ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the issue is that they should focus on gutting smallscale sustain while leaving largescale one untouched, which is complicated

If 1v1 is balanced then 100vs100 is also balanced.

[Sahne.6950]

11 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

If 1v1 is balanced then 100vs100 is also balanced.

meeeeh dont really agree 😄 But they should for sure balance for smallerscale aswell! (1v1; 1v2; 2v2; 3v3;etc.) at the moment they ignore everything thats not 50v50 and roaming feels pretty unbalanced.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Sahne.6950

[Custodio.6134]

11 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

If 1v1 is balanced then 100vs100 is also balanced.

This is so completely wrong. The more players are involved, the more value is gained from synergies. In a 1v1,you only synergize with your traits and skills. A 5v5 already exponentially increases the skills and traits that make each other stronger. There may be a breakpoint, where it doesn't increase with numbers anymore, but synergy is the main reason why roaming-builds differ so much from large scale builds. 

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:50 PM, Custodio.6134 said:

Well, the reason why you don´t see a lot complaints about the scrapper nerfs is probably, that these nerfs pretty much legitimate. 

I´ve been maining medium- and large-scale heal-scrapper for quite a while now, and even i think, that nerfs are, or at least, were needed. 

Scrapper is bringing extremely high amounts of utility. extremely high heal (which used to be even more before the 50% heal-cut in WvW was introduced), extreme amounts of condi-cleanse, Superspeed, Quickness, Stealth, Damage Mitigation, Projectile Blocks, CC.... everything on just one specc. It´s overloaded with effects, leaving no room for other classes to compete for the same spot in a squad. 

 

 

yep. I assume that players (especially those who are new to WvW) think, that they can get away with anything they think is good, or probably not even that. The issue is, that WvW is a highly competetive environment by nature. This is what i´ve been expieriencing for a long time in Open World (because, well, Open World allowed such a gameplay style, with Dragon´s End being the first exception now), and what i also start expieriencing in  WvW (note: not due to the release of EoD, this trend started already over a year ago). 

 

 

well, that statement kinda has room for interpretation, but i think you are right. Tbh: you could >technically< call Rev a hybrid between DPS and support, because it is a DPS-class that actually DOES bring supportive effects (swiftness, fury, might, stability, dmg reduction). BUT: it´s not the main task of a rev, it is more like a "useful side-effect" which synergizes well in teamcomps. The "1k dps revs" probably thought, that they have to invest into the supportive aspect (which ofc is not that needed in WvW)

Compare Rev to Weaver. 

Rev brings alot of boons etc alongside Dmg. 

Weaver doesn't bring anything other then dmg. 

So yes, Scourge and Rev are in fact hybrid builds that add offensive and defense in one build. 

 

[Virdo.1540]

Its not the sustain thats too high, its the damage thats too low.

[Dralor.3701]

2 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Its not the sustain thats too high, its the damage thats too low.

If they buff damage smaller scale stuff would be pretty trash. It’s already easy to blow someone up.

 

The larger fights break because we run fb/scrapper and nobody ever dies running around with a million boons. Condis don’t even stick unless someone falls asleep. 

Maybe unrelated but I think old stability was more fun, even with a good group it’s a lot harder to push without being pulled all over the place (even if it doesn’t result in death). Pirate ships are not fun.

 

[Coldtart.4785]

7 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Its not the sustain thats too high, its the damage thats too low.

It absolutely is the sustain. Before the damage got nerfed I had no difficulty staying alive on a full berserker hammer rev. I could dish out, and thus potentially get hit by, 12k hits all the time. This kind of survivability with zero personal investment in survival was not possible before med scrapper became part of the meta.

[Kozumi.5816]

20 hours ago, Custodio.6134 said:

This is so completely wrong

If a pure dps cannot kill a pure healer 1v1, then it cannot die in even numbers.

If a pure dps can kill a pure healer 1v1, then it can die in even numbers.

Balanced.

[Dawdler.8521]

4 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

If a pure dps cannot kill a pure healer 1v1, then it cannot die in even numbers.

If a pure dps can kill a pure healer 1v1, then it can die in even numbers.

Balanced.

Well now you only need to explain how a pure healer with an anti-projectile bubble can be killed by pure projectile dps due to cooldowns, but 50vs50 the healers become completely immune to the same projectile dps due to cooldown overlap.

Its a simplistic way of looking at it sure, but its the basics of the current "balance".

[Virdo.1540]

6 hours ago, Coldtart.4785 said:

It absolutely is the sustain. Before the damage got nerfed I had no difficulty staying alive on a full berserker hammer rev. I could dish out, and thus potentially get hit by, 12k hits all the time. This kind of survivability with zero personal investment in survival was not possible before med scrapper became part of the meta.

ofc berserker get massive hits from berserker geared people. But if people run something with a little bit toughness its trash dmg from pure glass cannons. If a glass cannon shoots a glass cannon, someone will break. As it should be

[Kozumi.5816]

9 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Well now you only need to explain how a pure healer with an anti-projectile bubble can be killed by pure projectile dps due to cooldowns, but 50vs50 the healers become completely immune to the same projectile dps due to cooldown overlap.

Anti-projectile skills are terribly designed.

[God.2708]

7 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

ofc berserker get massive hits from berserker geared people. But if people run something with a little bit toughness its trash dmg from pure glass cannons. If a glass cannon shoots a glass cannon, someone will break. As it should be

A properly buffed revenant will hit a full minstrels guardian with protection up for almost 5k damage with CoR.

What exactly are you expecting? To just get to one shot everything by pressing a button? Seems kinda dull.

Edited April 5, 2022 by God.2708

[Arctisavange.7261]

Oh stop kidding here. If you say sustain is too high then clearly you havent played during the vanilla days. The fights were 3-4x longer and everyone LOVED IT.

[Virdo.1540]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

A properly buffed revenant will hit a full minstrels guardian with protection up for almost 5k damage with CoR.

What exactly are you expecting? To just get to one shot everything by pressing a button? Seems kinda dull.

Nope but it could do at least a bit more damage, since the guardian is able to heal up within some seconds and still deals more damage to the rev that the rev could heal itself.

[Coldtart.4785]

The strongest sustain in the GWEN days were water field blasts and hand ressing downs. Almost every push resulted in at least some deaths. Not like today where it's nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing then suddenly one side near instantly collapses.