Catalyst does more dps than Weaver while providing some amount of boons

[Kozumi.5816]

Weaver provides exactly zero boons to allies and does less DPS. How is this balanced? Please buff weaver DPS.

 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[SeTect.5918]

10 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Weaver provides exactly zero boons to allies and does less DPS. How is this balanced? Please buff weaver DPS.

 

I think Weaver is supposed to be condi and catalyst to be power.

Weaver has more sustain than catalyst and Weaver also maintains the boosts from traits easier. 

Weaver dps in a real encounter is higher than catalyst dps. 

[Nephalem.8921]

Weaver is just underpowered. D/f is fine but not really playable on a lot of encounters and at least really annoying to play with the forced movement. weave self is not a fun skill to use for me and a lot of others.

Weaver being underpowered is nothing new. Its nice and all but dps is just fine while it needs to do top tier damage with all the draw backs and selfishness it has. People have been asking for weaver buffs for years. They nerfed power to help condi weaver. Genius right?

[Serephen.3420]

Condi weaver should have higher dps anyway, power catalyst should have more dmg than power weaver imo.

Pretty sure condi weaver was hitting for at least 40k 

Edited March 31, 2022 by Serephen.3420

[Emberheart.8426]

14 minutes ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Condi weaver should have higher dps anyway, power catalyst should have more dmg than power weaver imo.

Pretty sure condi weaver was hitting for at least 40k 

Actually power weaver should have more damage than damage catalyst. Don't forget that catalyst is a little tanker has a little bit of mid range capability and has some limited boons. This is by no means a call for cata nerfs btw. Weaver of all varieties is severely underpowered.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Ganathar.4956

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

Let hope for Weaver buffs, and not Catalyst nerfs.  I would hate for condi and hybrid weaver to become its main thing, considering that those variants require split-second timing and no mistakes during their rotation, and also have to run inflexible builds due to utilities holding most of their damage.  

[Serephen.3420]

5 hours ago, Ganathar.4956 said:

Actually power weaver should have more damage than damage catalyst. Don't forget that catalyst is a little tanker has a little bit of mid range capability and has some limited boons. This is by no means a call for cata nerfs btw. Weaver of all varieties is severely underpowered.

Weaver is definitely more tanky than Catalyst but I agree about the range. 

[Emberheart.8426]

1 minute ago, Serephen.3420 said:

Weaver is definitely more tanky than Catalyst but I agree about the range. 

Maybe condi, but definitely not power. Power cata has elemental empowerment, the defensive orbs, higher heals with the leap and a little bit of frost aura. Also you are more capable of using dragon's gear since you have more ways to get crit chance. 

 

Power weaver has slight frost aura, a piddly cleansing wave and...  a couple of evades if you happen to be in the right attunement. Not on the same level of the barrier and earth traits of condi builds.

[Junkpile.7439]

Yes give weaver more dps, but remove barriers.

[SeTect.5918]

14 hours ago, SeTect.5918 said:

I think Weaver is supposed to be condi and catalyst to be power.

Weaver has more sustain than catalyst and Weaver also maintains the boosts from traits easier. 

Weaver dps in a real encounter is higher than catalyst dps. 

To add something:

I think that Weaver and Catalyst should have similar dps, but I also think that both should be around 40k dps because:

1. Their dps builds both have 0 sustain compared to other dps builds. (Weaver has slightly more sustain but Catalyst more boons)

2. They both are having the highest skill floor and ceiling in the game. 

To the people that ask something like "Why should u deal more dps if u have lower sustain?":

Its because in real encounters (that are no benchmarks) you will have far more movement and dodge uptime. This leads to a passive dps loss. 

 

Both Catalyst and Weaver should get either far more sustain (in their dps build) or slightly more dps (both buffed to 40k). 

Edited March 31, 2022 by SeTect.5918

[Jski.6180]

Weaver needs self buff quickness and alacrity as a way to buff it. Most selfish dps should get self strong dps boons just not at an perma effect.

[AliamRationem.5172]

3 hours ago, Junkpile.7439 said:

Yes give weaver more dps, but remove barriers.

The problem with removing barrier from weaver is that it actually pays pretty heavily for those barriers in damage as it is.  It already gives up 15% power or condition damage + 13% vitality -> precision and 20% condi duration (if condi).  That only gives it 800 barrier on dodge and 700 barrier on stance application plus passive stone resonance.  It still gets most of its barrier by slotting stances including stone resonance.  The only passive barrier it gains with traits or utilities is 500 barrier on dual attack.

Maybe change stone resonance to do something other than provide barrier?  But it's a defensive utility with a fairly long cooldown.  What do you want it to do instead?

[AliamRationem.5172]

29 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Weaver needs self buff quickness and alacrity as a way to buff it. Most selfish dps should get self strong dps boons just not at an perma effect.

Yes!  I would love some self-quickness on weaver!  Let's have us some of that!

[draxynnic.3719]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

Weaver needs self buff quickness and alacrity as a way to buff it. Most selfish dps should get self strong dps boons just not at an perma effect.

My kneejerk reaction is to say that having access to self-buff just one of those, let alone both, usually comes at a DPS loss in organised PvE since ArenaNet also balances for the open world environment - a build that can self-apply those boons usually comes at a significant DPS loss in circumstances where those boons are coming from an external source. Just look at power reaper, which is one of the strongest builds in open world because it has decent sustain and can get full Might, full vulnerability, capped crit chance, and high quickness uptime on its own, but has a pretty low benchmark in raid conditions where those benefits are assumed.

But, you know what? Weaver could do with being stronger in open world, and self-applying alac and quickness in open world is actually an elegant way to allow it to compensate for its lower sustain with more damage in open world without pushing its raid DPS over the level that will force ArenaNet to nerf it. Bring it on!

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

My kneejerk reaction is to say that having access to self-buff just one of those, let alone both, usually comes at a DPS loss in organised PvE since ArenaNet also balances for the open world environment - a build that can self-apply those boons usually comes at a significant DPS loss in circumstances where those boons are coming from an external source. Just look at power reaper, which is one of the strongest builds in open world because it has decent sustain and can get full Might, full vulnerability, capped crit chance, and high quickness uptime on its own, but has a pretty low benchmark in raid conditions where those benefits are assumed.

But, you know what? Weaver could do with being stronger in open world, and self-applying alac and quickness in open world is actually an elegant way to allow it to compensate for its lower sustain with more damage in open world without pushing its raid DPS over the level that will force ArenaNet to nerf it. Bring it on!

Unless you're firebrand,  of course.  Then you can have about the highest possible DPS in solo play while also providing whatever a group needs.

[draxynnic.3719]

41 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Unless you're firebrand,  of course.  Then you can have about the highest possible DPS in solo play while also providing whatever a group needs.

Similar principle to the reaper - a condi quickbrand can provide itself with quickness, giving it higher DPS when solo than most professions can achieve without quickness. Builds that can apply quickness and other boons to themselves usually do well in solo, but if quickness is already covered, they fall behind. (Unlike power reaper, though, firebrand can trade out quickness for higher base damage if someone else is providing it.)

But that's why self-quickness would work so well here: it would buff Weaver significantly in open world without pushing it over the acceptable DPS threshold in raids.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I don't know about you guys, but damage isn't the limiting factor when playing in the overworld.  The biggest issue that PVE Weaver has is that it has to sacrifice nearly everything for DPS.  The only flexibility in the utilities comes from Power Weaver, because Arcane Blast only adds 600 DPS total.  I can drop Arcane Blast for any other utility (Stone Resonance, Twist of Fate, and Arcane Shield are the top 3) as the situation demands, and there will be no repercussions in doing so.  Also, Sandstorm while in Earth can be used as a defensive utility when surrounded by a lot of enemies.  Since I stubbornly run Fresh Air no matter the circumstance, any group of bad guys will be obliterated by the time the sandstorm ends.

Condi and hybrid weaver are different.  Arcane Blast is a free space due to how little it does, but Fire Signet, Primordial Stance, and Glyph of storms aren't.  Under full buffs they each hit for around 27k damage.  Sandstorm can still be used defensively, though.  The condi version needs to rely on traits, which is where the weaver has is greatest weakness.  The trait tree for the DPS weaver is, quite literally, 3 different forms of "do more damage."  The only defense comes from the Weakness on Superior Elements, and the near negligible barrier on Elemental Refreshment.  Master's Fortitude can be taken without too much of a loss, but the master and grandmaster lines incur severe penalties for changing them out.  For weapon skills, the weaver can swap to water for a dodge and some self sustain, but this comes at a massive performance loss.

Compared to Catalyst, Weaver currently has three advantages in PVE  These... are not great advantages.  

1. Weaver has no ramp-up time.  The catalyst has to go through its entire rotation at least once to get full buffs from empowering power of empowered empowerment, as well as all of the orbs.  By contrast, power weaver needs to merely use a dual skill, and condi/hybrid merely needs to attune to fire.  For defense, Superior Elements is quickly accessible and Master's Fortitude is always "on." This is a cold comfort, though, because Catalyst actually suffers very little from having a ramp-up time.
2. Weaver has superior crowd control.  The CC on hammer is so bad that most people don't even know it's there.  The utilities have no additional CC outside of Conjures.  Sword + X, however, has enough bar-breaking potential that I use it to solo legendary wyverns.  Especially with the help of Fresh Air, it can quickly charge through either Earth + Air or Water + Air combos (depending on off-hand) to rip the kitten out of any defiance bar.  The hammer has a slow stun and forced movement.  If I have an ally in WvW, I'll frequently sit back and just chain staggered CC together to let my ally beat the tar out of an enemy.
3. If we're going to completely forgo maximizing DPS, the weaver has superior defensive options available.  This comes at a great cost to damage, but swapping to water/earth and equipping different utilities will give the Weaver a large amount of evades, a large amount of barrier, a large amount of self-heals, and more mobility.  Catalyst isn't without defense, since it has a block in Earth and also an augment that blocks attacks,  But, weaver has more, which ultimately is what makes Weaver better in WvW and PvP.  It's another cold comfort in PVE, where a healer solves most of your problems.  But in WvW, being fast, evasive, and self-sustaining is incredibly useful.

Now, if we wanted to buff weaver, I'd advise against making a trait that gives quickness, or improving the traits that give bonus damage/precision/etc.  The reason for this simple: these buffs would only work on specific pure-DPS builds, and not everywhere else.  I'd much rather prefer an increase in damage on the skills themselves (especially in water and earth which are very underpowered).  That way, all versions of weaver PVE weaver will be more powerful, not just the defenseless builds.  On the defense side, I would swap places between Master's Fortitude and Elemental Refreshment, while also making Refreshment stronger.  This will make the superior health buff innate, while generating more barrier is an option.  This will alleviate a lot of the pressure on Weaver to survive.

Chances are that weaver isn't going to get quickness or alacrity.  If we follow the trend that Anet is setting with buffs, it is going to be Tempest that gets alacrity.  

[Kozumi.5816]

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yes!  I would love some self-quickness on weaver!  Let's have us some of that!

Weaver feels very clunky and unfluid without alacrity. It should have 100% uptime on self alac.

  

2 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Weaver has no ramp-up time.  The catalyst has to go through its entire rotation at least once to get full buffs from empowering power of empowered empowerment, as well as all of the orbs.  By contrast, power weaver needs to merely use a dual skill, and condi/hybrid merely needs to attune to fire.  For defense, Superior Elements is quickly accessible and Master's Fortitude is always "on." This is a cold comfort, though, because Catalyst actually suffers very little from having a ramp-up time.

I actually burst harder on a some diviners(4 armor pieces) support catalyst than a weaver in full trailblazers + arcane using weave self. Weaver is trash.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Kozumi.5816

[AliamRationem.5172]

7 minutes ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Weaver feels very clunky and unfluid without alacrity. It should have 100% uptime on self alac.

Well, they could at least speed up some of the attacks on weaver.  Water/earth, air/air, fire/fire, earth/ earth dual attacks all feel painfully slow.  The final strike on most of the AA chains also feels unnecessarily slow without quickness.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Weaver feels very clunky and unfluid without alacrity. It should have 100% uptime on self alac.

  

I actually burst harder on a some diviners(4 armor pieces) support catalyst than a weaver in full trailblazers + arcane using weave self. Weaver is trash.

You're comparing apples to oranges here.  

[Daddy.8125]

tbh.. given the fact all the glass cannons power wise do about 39k DPS... i'd be very suprised even if they did buff weaver it'd get much more then 39k / 40k DPS but yes a weird situation.

weirdly though seems to happen everytime with elementalist. the New elite replaces the old Elites.

not that i wanna see catalyst get nerfed to change this really.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

STOP
BASING YOUR kitten
ON STATIONARY
100% UPTIME BOON/TRAITS/BANNERS
GOLEM NUMBERS

Edited April 1, 2022 by Knuckle Joe.7408

[zitounae.4803]

16 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Yes!  I would love some self-quickness on weaver!  Let's have us some of that!

That would fit weaver so well

[Daddy.8125]

4 hours ago, Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

STOP
BASING YOUR kitten
ON STATIONARY
100% UPTIME BOON/TRAITS/BANNERS
GOLEM NUMBERS

Tbh, theyre all based off golem numbers. While all take a DPS loss the moment they walk into a real raid. 

I dunno which of these speccs would do more DPS in a real fight however, given how difficult both speccs are to play I'd imagine most can't get even half what they could get realistically. 

[TheRaven.3462]

9 hours ago, Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

STOP
BASING YOUR kitten
ON STATIONARY
100% UPTIME BOON/TRAITS/BANNERS
GOLEM NUMBERS

20k quickness catalyst at vg highest dps in group