Catalyst does more dps than Weaver while providing some amount of boons

[Nezekan.2671]

Catalyst is far more stationary and situational than weaver is, don't pay attention too much to golem dps. Weaver has more realistic chance of achieving high numbers on the move and while doing mechanics.

[gooddrakkarboi.4870]

20 hours ago, Knuckle Joe.7408 said:

STOP
BASING YOUR kitten
ON STATIONARY
100% UPTIME BOON/TRAITS/BANNERS
GOLEM NUMBERS

But then they had to play the game themselves which is impossible because they... uhm... don't know. Sometimes I think the devs that (try to) balance didn't play the game that much...

 

the most recent WoD nerf proves that to some degree... and the so called nerf to Hfb in WvW (xd, imagine taking battle presence instead of party stunbreak and extra stab xd)

[Puck.3697]

12 hours ago, TheRaven.3462 said:

20k quickness catalyst at vg highest dps in group

Given cele weaver can do 16.8k DPS in a solo build. Imma say that's likely saying more about the other players then the catalyst in no disrespect here. 

DPS and even offensive supports shouldn't be doing less then 20k DPS. 

Not atleast in experienced runs, ofcourse in training runs etc etc it's alot more erratic in performance. 

But DPS builds will get alot higher then 20k in a raid if we are talking strictly equally skilled / experience. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2022 by Daddy.8125

[Nephalem.8921]

On 3/31/2022 at 4:35 PM, draxynnic.3719 said:

My kneejerk reaction is to say that having access to self-buff just one of those, let alone both, usually comes at a DPS loss in organised PvE since ArenaNet also balances for the open world environment - a build that can self-apply those boons usually comes at a significant DPS loss in circumstances where those boons are coming from an external source. Just look at power reaper, which is one of the strongest builds in open world because it has decent sustain and can get full Might, full vulnerability, capped crit chance, and high quickness uptime on its own, but has a pretty low benchmark in raid conditions where those benefits are assumed.

But, you know what? Weaver could do with being stronger in open world, and self-applying alac and quickness in open world is actually an elegant way to allow it to compensate for its lower sustain with more damage in open world without pushing its raid DPS over the level that will force ArenaNet to nerf it. Bring it on!

This only applies to reaper. pls stop spilling this nonsense. guardian does the same with no penalty at all. why does a completely overloaded utility spec like guardian scratch on the 40k? Why does the quickness version do 33k+ and scrapper/chrono 28k and lower while offering way less utility? Quickness! fb does as much dmg as reaper. reaper is just sad.

Either bring everything up to guardian standard or nerf it into the ground. Catalyst does not too much dps. weaver and mainly core ele are too bad. Look at cantrips for example. most of these skills have ridiculous cds while being purely selfish. guardian can do the same but aoe for the whole group on usually way lower cds.

This game doesnt need completely selfish glass dps, it just creates problems because it could result in stacking in raids while feeling awful everywhere else. Give core ele more utility and buff condi or hybrid weaver hard. Weave self feels awful design wise. too punishing and bloated.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Nephalem.8921]

23 hours ago, TheRaven.3462 said:

20k quickness catalyst at vg highest dps in group

If you mean rouls video. The quick cata was the lowest power dps and was able to play full berserker because of 2 catas in same sub. 

Both might have played full dps. The fbs gave most of the quick.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Kozumi.5816]

5 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

This game doesnt need completely selfish glass dps, it just creates problems because it could result in stacking in raids while feeling awful everywhere else. Give core ele more utility and buff condi or hybrid weaver hard. Weave self feels awful design wise. too punishing and bloated.

Weaver should be a barrier share spec(bottom traitline).

Tempest should be an alac share healer.

3/3 elite specs instantly good

[Puck.3697]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:57 PM, Kozumi.5816 said:

Weaver provides exactly zero boons to allies and does less DPS. How is this balanced? Please buff weaver DPS

The issue is we know they won't buff weaver they will nerf catalyst in this situation. 

This topic was made during beta 2 by someone. Their immediate reaction was 2 rounds of nerfing catalyst. Then catalyst became unplayable so they turned around and buffed catalyst. 

We now go back to arguing this and I'm pretty certain your about to see catalyst nerfed to 35k/36k. 

Anet rarely allow speccs to pass 40k DPS on a benchmark.

I will say though these speccs generally aren't the same are likely wouldn't replace each other. 

Power catalyst and Condi weaver is the only way your keeping these 2 relevant at the same time, otherwise your gonna delete one off the table. 

Fights will demand different things realistically, Condi is favoured in some power favoured In others. But neither of these builds will replace the other in their own strength rly. 

[TheRaven.3462]

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

If you mean rouls video. The quick cata was the lowest power dps and was able to play full berserker because of 2 catas in same sub. 

no a friend was testing out qucikness catalyst in pug group and did more than dps while providing perma quickness

[SeTect.5918]

32 minutes ago, TheRaven.3462 said:

no a friend was testing out qucikness catalyst in pug group and did more than dps while providing perma quickness

Then the rest of the pug grp was just not that as good as the Catalyst. Because that normally doesnt happen.

I was also top dps with my trailblazers Herald with tormenting rune in fractals often. That says nothing about my skill but of the skill of other players tbh.

If all players have the same skill level, the benchmarks (often) also apply on real fights, so there is no way that a good quickness Catalyst is better than a good Harbinger, Scourge, Firebrand, Dragonhunter, Mechanist, Renegade, Soulbeast, Weaver or everything else with 35k+.
Also with the bad access to EE, its very unlikely that a Catalyst is 1st if other players with different classes are on the same skill level.

One single raid pug isnt a valid source.
If someone does a survey/poll then they also dont just ask a single person.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 4/1/2022 at 6:10 AM, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

Chances are that weaver isn't going to get quickness or alacrity.  If we follow the trend that Anet is setting with buffs, it is going to be Tempest that gets alacrity.  

If we were talking about group alacrity, yes.

Weaver could, however, have an ability to self-apply alacrity. This wouldn't give weaver the alac support role since it is only giving it to itself (a raid build might even prefer not to use it at all), but it would make weaver more fluid and stronger in open world without increasing its strength in raid conditions.

8 hours ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

This only applies to reaper. pls stop spilling this nonsense. guardian does the same with no penalty at all. why does a completely overloaded utility spec like guardian scratch on the 40k? Why does the quickness version do 33k+ and scrapper/chrono 28k and lower while offering way less utility? Quickness! fb does as much dmg as reaper. reaper is just sad.

Either bring everything up to guardian standard or nerf it into the ground. Catalyst does not too much dps. weaver and mainly core ele are too bad. Look at cantrips for example. most of these skills have ridiculous cds while being purely selfish. guardian can do the same but aoe for the whole group on usually way lower cds.

This game doesnt need completely selfish glass dps, it just creates problems because it could result in stacking in raids while feeling awful everywhere else. Give core ele more utility and buff condi or hybrid weaver hard. Weave self feels awful design wise. too punishing and bloated.

Scrapper/chrono could do with a boost, unless ArenaNet explicitly wants power to be weaker, and other quickness builds have about the same benchmark as cQb.

That's going off on a tangent, though, since it completely misses my point.

Notice how the cQb build is different to the pure condition damage build used in raid conditions when the quickness is being provided? Apart from Imbued Haste, firebrand is able to trade out all of its quickness application (and a lot of its other boon application) for pure damage, so when it's getting quickness, max might, fury, max vulnerability, and other boons from an outside source, there's very little wastage. While in open world cQb is a strong build since basically anything with high, convenient quickness uptime is good in open world.

Power reaper doesn't have this. You can't trade out Reaper's Might without trading out Spite altogether, so that's a lot of Might that's being wasted if your support is providing it. Trading out Unyielding Blast can't give you more damage, so you're stuck there as well even if the boss is vulnerability capped. You can trade out Decimate Defences, but power reaper doesn't have a good alternative to Reaper's Onslaught, so all that self-quickness is being wasted.

Which is why power reaper is so good in open world but benches low in raid conditions. Its strength in solo play comes from being able to cap might and vulnerability, providing itself with a lot of quickness, and being able to crit cap easily so it can afford to lower precision in exchange for other stats. In raid conditions, though, the boons and vulnerability are redundant, you don't really need extra defence stats, and it's hard to convert that reduced precision requirement into more damage.

Hence why I think allowing weaver to apply alacrity and/or quickness to itself only could be a good buff. It'd be a targeted buff that improves open world capability without significantly increasing raid capability.

This does not meant there necessarily isn't an argument for buffing it in raid conditions as well, but that's not what I'm discussing here.

[Nephalem.8921]

1 hour ago, TheRaven.3462 said:

no a friend was testing out qucikness catalyst in pug group and did more than dps while providing perma quickness

I was 2nd dps as alac ren in some pugs. Those are not great indicators. I can do 17k on scrapper too on that boss. 20k on vg doesnt sound that crazy.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Nephalem.8921

[Puck.3697]

11 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Weaver could, however, have an ability to self-apply alacrity. This wouldn't give weaver the alac support role since it is only giving it to itself (a raid build might even prefer not to use it at all), but it would make weaver more fluid and stronger in open world without increasing its strength in raid conditions

Tbh weaver already does 16.8k in a cele build for open world. 

It's problem is being stuck in 100% melee range at all times with no good ranged options realistically. 

The idea with self-boons would help every proffession feel more fluid / stronger realistically I doubt they would do it for this. 

This is the problem with balancing around 100% boons. Speccs feel janky when they aren't present. 

[Kozumi.5816]

43 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Tbh weaver already does 16.8k in a cele build for open world. 

Full trailblazers Scourge does 17k clicking all skills.

 

[Puck.3697]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Full trailblazers Scourge does 17k clicking all skills.

 

I didn't say it was overpowered 😂.... 

But 16.8k is pretty kitten strong, and if I'm correct trailblazer weaver is capable of 17k also. I just prefer cele build. 

What my statement is saying is, the down falls of the weaver solo build is the lack of ranged options. Not damage. 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

Full trailblazers Scourge does 17k clicking all skills.

 

Trailblazer is a higher damage set than celestial on most condi builds, including weaver.

Edited April 3, 2022 by AliamRationem.5172

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 minute ago, Daddy.8125 said:

I didn't say it was overpowered 😂.... 

But 16.8k is pretty kitten strong, and if I'm correct trailblazer weaver is capable of 17k also. I just prefer cele build. 

What my statement is saying is, the down falls of the weaver solo build is the lack of ranged options. Not damage. 

 

Pretty much.  Harder to play with more limitations.  Pretty typical ele, right?

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Pretty much.  Harder to play with more limitations.  Pretty typical ele, right?

Sadly yes :(. Hopefully they do something about it soon but maybe that's a touch too much copium 

 

[AliamRationem.5172]

2 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Sadly yes :(. Hopefully they do something about it soon but maybe that's a touch too much copium 

 

Here's hoping they overhaul conjured weapons to fill in the gaps created by the class design.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Here's hoping they overhaul conjured weapons to fill in the gaps created by the class design.

Yeah conjures being solid would be good, feel like theyve been forgotten about 

[Bleikopf.2491]

2 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Yeah conjures being solid would be good, feel like theyve been forgotten about 

We can start by making the cast times uniform. I know it's a small detail but it always messes up my timing.

[Ruisen.9471]

Catalyst is going to have to get something very compelling for people to be willing to take up the much harder rotation for Quickness support.   Weaver was really hard, Catalyst is another step up.

[Markus.6415]

Careful with the wording. Threads like this will more likely end up in another Catalyst nerf, then a Weaver buff. 🙃

[ManaPotato.3279]

Transmute skills buff on weaver actually made it viable in sPvP and WvW. Its perfectly fine now.

 

I wish they made the same changes to PvE (and also buff Elemental Refreshment as well while at it).