I feel excluded from EoD because Soo Won meta event is too hard

[ugrakarma.9416]

7 hours ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

 If it requires too much preparation prior to the meta, they do subgroups based on support roles and use discord then that's not a chill run at all. I'm sure they are really nice people, but that is not what defines a chill run and none of the things you described should be required for an OW meta event.

Theres no "too much" preparation, the preparation is do map-events, designed for this meta, stack jade buffs. how's play the map events is too much preparation? they do it even in zerg thats about press 1. Also even have long spare time after u acquire 10 stack bonus, u can just afk til meta start. Its chill as long don't enforce u to any role or spec. Its the commander who's organize subsquads.

This preparation is even more chill work than run a Drizzlewood South Meta(u need keep eye where events pop-up), more plain zerg events than DragonFall(need keep track of commander).

Edited March 31, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[kash.9213]

2 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Theres no "too much" preparation, the preparation is do map-events, designed for this meta, stack jade buffs. how's play the map events is too much preparation? they do it even in zerg thats about press 1. Also even have long spare time after u acquire 10 stack bonus.

Its chill as long don't enforce u to any role or spec.

Its the commander who's organize subsquads.

 

This preparation is even more chill work than run a Drizzlewood South meta, more plain zerg events than DragonFall.

You're talking about a different thing than they are when talking about preparation. Seems pretty obvious what they were talking about but then ... there's your comment. 

[Shadowmoon.7986]

4 hours ago, Haishao.6851 said:

People had issue with the mission The Departing in PoF story and thought it was like a raid. 

How hard is this meta rated from Eater of Souls to 10? 

I would rate it harder than getting no fly zone with shatterer, and easier than triple trouble pre condi cap change.

Triple trouble back in the day required joining the map an hour early, dedicating 5 players to handle reflect, 5 power players to kill any eggs that were missed, and 5 condi players to manage husks when defiance were stacks that just ignored cc. Comanders would run "training" mock encounters to organize when people would use their reflects, where condi teams would pull husks, and teach the zerg the mechanics for the worm they were assigned. The event required communication between the 3 zergs, and would often fail. 

So Won has none of the specialized subgroup requirements. 

[KeoLegend.5132]

4 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Good for you. I like WvW, too. But I know several PvE players that really hate it to go into WvW for Gift of Battle.

Gift of Battle is a good example for bad design. Forcing PvE players repeatedly into WvW is not a good idea.

 

The video is correct

your argument is wrong if we measure it by that video.

 

Players are not forced into WvW, neither repeatedly.

 

If i say: "I want a full Celestial but i don't want to Charge Quartz Crystal everyday", what does that makes me?

Don't misunderstood intended design with bad design.

Crybabes might be resposible for killing GW2 some day, as they are already responsible for all the toxicicity we've been experiencing these days

[Zok.4956]

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Jesus, I keep seeing you* spamming with this video

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

probably you, since if there's a group of people spamming with it, it might make it even weirder

 

Jesus, I keep seeing you spamming with defending the game in probably every aspect because you don't like the opinions of other players who don't share your point of view and you seem to want them to remain silent.

 

2 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Solid incentive that's still not obligatory to play what you want is the opposite of a "sin" or "bad design".

Sure it is. Forcing PvE players that just want to build legendary weapons into WvW is bad design. There a lot of players that don't like WvW. That's a valid opinion. And they probably never will have fun in WvW. Locking legendary weapons, that are not specific to WvW, behind WvW does not increase the fun for those players, it just increases anger and wrath about this situation and also does not really help the game mode WvW. A better design would be to give alternative ways in every game mode to get it. A good game mechanic/design should increase fun, not anger.

 

[Zok.4956]

4 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

Players are not forced into WvW, neither repeatedly.

Sure they are, for every legy weapon they want to build.

 

5 minutes ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

If i say: "I want a full Celestial but i don't want to Charge Quartz Crystal everyday", what does that makes me?

If a dev would change the game, and every legendary item in the game, like weapon, trinket, armor, would require WvW rank 4000, because legendary gear should only be available for WvW vets, what would that make with the game and would that be good design?

 

[dusanyu.4057]

find a chill group like mentioned and bring a Machinist do big damage and watch for mechanics

[Astralporing.1957]

13 hours ago, Albadaran.1283 said:

I hope it will develop into a Tequatl way, meaning that in the end every group large enough will succeed, even without preparations. 

Meaning, you hope it will get significantly nerfed in the following months? because that was what made Tequatl beatable by average pugs.

[Astralporing.1957]

6 hours ago, KeoLegend.5132 said:

If i say: "I want a full Celestial but i don't want to Charge Quartz Crystal everyday", what does that makes me?

But that's very much possible - just go for the exotic/ascended gear with selectable stats. There's a lot of sources (in different types of content) for those, you know.

[DerAlteSack.3572]

6 hours ago, Zok.4956 said:

Sure they are, for every legy weapon they want to build.

 

If a dev would change the game, and every legendary item in the game, like weapon, trinket, armor, would require WvW rank 4000, because legendary gear should only be available for WvW vets, what would that make with the game and would that be good design?

 

You just discovered the difference between incentivizing people to try a game mode once in a while and forcing people to grind a game mode they usually don't play. One is perfectly good game design, the other one is probably what the guy in the video was talking about. 

I mean we are talking about 2-4 days in WvW for Gift of Battle and several weeks, if not months for rank 4000.

[Elden Arnaas.4870]

re: It's good for someone to be excluded from something. - Well, ANet is excluded from getting my IRL money for the foreseeable future - how's that?

Open world and story events should be for *everyone*. We have raids and high level fractals for those who need more difficulty. Raids are the exclusionary game mode, not open world. And this is too mainstream an event (story content) to be excluding people.

And even now, a *month* later, they're still dealing with bugs affecting the main boss fight, of the climatic battle, of their main story arc, since release. How should that even be a thing? We can't even properly judge the *intended* difficulty until it actually *works* properly.

This "experiment" should have been done in a 50 player instance. And there was no need to gate a mount or elite spec weapons behind it.(Only to change these things after the totally predictable backlash.)

Once again, story should be for *everyone*. Game features aggressively placed in all your major ads and hype should be for *everyone*.

[Zok.4956]

1 hour ago, DerAlteSack.3572 said:

You just discovered the difference between incentivizing people to try a game mode once in a while and forcing people to grind a game mode they usually don't play. One is perfectly good game design, the other one is probably what the guy in the video was talking about.

Maybe the difference between "incentivizing" and "forcing" is new for you, but it isn't new for me.

Increasing non-exclusive rewards, making events like wvw-week or fractal-week are good examples for incentivizing people to try a game mode once in a while. Players that are unsure or neutral if they like a game mode or not, are motivated to give it a chance and players that already  know they don't like the game mode can continue to ignore it. Players are not dumb and most players already know the parts of the game they like and dislike.

And it is the same vice-versa. I know of a lot WvW-exclusive players who hate it to go into PvE for getting gear or other "locked behind PvE" items. Anet already understood that this kind of "forcing" was not good design and so they added alternative ways for WvW players to get some of those "locked behind PvE" items.

 

1 hour ago, DerAlteSack.3572 said:

I mean we are talking about 2-4 days in WvW for Gift of Battle and several weeks, if not months for rank 4000.

Sure, there is a big difference in time spent in WvW between both. WvW rank 4000 can probably mean "years" for new WvW players. It was just a comparison in a response to make it clearer.

From the point of progression of my game account, neither is an obstacle for me. I can easily meet both requirements. If it's easy for me, than it's easy for everyone? No, of course it isn't.

If have several guildies who like playing open world and story (some of them), fractals, raids (some of them) and even the "trading-post"-game (some of them). Playing (more or less challenging) PvE content and building legendaries is their endgame they have fun with and they all hate it to go into WvW for the Gift of Battle. This is not the players fault, the game design causes this.

One of the core design ideas of GW2 was, that playing the content that is required to achive a fun long time goal should also be fun. That's why the game gives for a lot of things in the game alternative ways to get a achievement/reward. Sure, the game deviates from this core idea in a lof of ways (it's still a MMO and grinding is a way of time gating to create behavioral patterns in players to make more money and Anet tried to justify grinding/time-gating later on), but I see no point in defending this gating/forcing as "good design".

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Zok.4956

[Geckoo.6018]

10 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

Theres no "too much" preparation, the preparation is do map-events, designed for this meta, stack jade buffs. how's play the map events is too much preparation? they do it even in zerg thats about press 1. Also even have long spare time after u acquire 10 stack bonus, u can just afk til meta start. Its chill as long don't enforce u to any role or spec. Its the commander who's organize subsquads.

This preparation is even more chill work than run a Drizzlewood South Meta(u need keep eye where events pop-up), more plain zerg events than DragonFall(need keep track of commander).

Is a matter of time invested. Your own argument about how you can easily get 10 stacks and have a lot of spare time until the event starts is a great example of what i'm saying. How relaxed it is to do those events is out of the question, my critique is to how the way the whole thing is designed forces the idea that successful squads actually need to start forming with all that time to spare.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Geckoo.6018

[DerAlteSack.3572]

I still think, that difficulty isn't the problem. The problem is that you don't get anything for spending 2h on a meta when you fail it. I am pretty sure, that people wouldn't be as upset about this whole thing if they would still get a decent reward for spending their time on this map. 

[Opun.3824]

Personally started playing EOD when it came out, around two weeks after release and around 10-12 tries i got my egg, did around 5 runs after, not one of them was succesful... personally i was too bruned out of this map and didnt even done this event again.

 

I remember tequal, triple trouble or dragons stand, those metas ware hard at first but today they dont require discord, alac subgroups etc etc. i just think there is a thin border line between hard OW content and TOO HARD OW content.

 

If some OW event requires, discord, guildes, sub groups in my opinion it stops being fun and just makes community more divided.

 

For this kind of stuff we have fractals, strikes and raids.

OW content be it harder or easier in the end after some time always was doable without organized groups, only some explanation at start to ppl doing it and thats it, nothing more.

 

I am not happy about brain dead events, but adding only timer to brain dead event to make it harder is not good design choice.

 

If we would add for example very small timer to very OW Core World Boss, it would make same situatuion like EOD. In contrary Dragons stand was not about timer but mechanic that ppl had to discover and learn, in order to suceed.

 

We can go even further, we can slap a lot of HP, and small timer on a mob that doesnt move and attack, and it would require organized group with high dps and good builds, but is it fun for just the sake of being "Hard" ?

Edited April 1, 2022 by Opun.3824

[Mickey.4207]

The same leet players jumping on OP as usual for expressing his frustration with this badly designed meta. The usual suspects are at it again telling OP how he is wrong and this is best meta ever. I am sure they will have their wish in few weeks when this map will be dead and only run by few guilds who can organise a pre made raid and can afford to spend 2 hours a day on single meta. Have fun. 

[Geckoo.6018]

28 minutes ago, DerAlteSack.3572 said:

I still think, that difficulty isn't the problem. The problem is that you don't get anything for spending 2h on a meta when you fail it. I am pretty sure, that people wouldn't be as upset about this whole thing if they would still get a decent reward for spending their time on this map. 

The whole event would benefit from more partial rewards, specially during the fight. Encouraging participation even when it fails is the best way to diversify the types of squads participating and eventually succeeding.

[Tiz.3204]

From a filthy casual, I ask the devs to please NOT nerf Dragon's End meta and from the players (casual/elite, w/e), to refrain from asking this! I play GW2 on and off since release, I went almost 2 years without playing/logging in once! But I kept coming back, because GW2 has that something!

One of the most memorable things of GW2 in the old days was the struggle and continuous failure of the explorable Dungeon paths and wiping constantly. Back then I can confirm that I gave zero flying bleeps about the reward, although it was worth it, but I cared about the journey, memories playing with/making friends and complaining, and finally (hopefully) completing the challenge! I failed Dungeon runs hundreds of times, maybe more...now I see people complain after failing a handful of times. I understand it is frustrating, but you can take your time. What is the hurry in completing the meta. The expansion came out just over a month ago!

It is important not to shy away from so-called "elite" level content in GW2. For example, I've not cleared all tier 3 fractals yet and only succeeded with PUGs in raids, and after countless fails, I might add. I managed the End of Dragon's meta after very few attempts. Moreover, I'm definitely a crap commander and I actually commanded one of those attempts, managing to fail at a painful 2% of Soo Won's life. What I'm trying to say is, anyone can do it, but it will take time.

Lastly, I would encourage people to have patience, enjoy the content and don't rush it! Pretend it is practice rounds, each time. Keep doing your best and keep learning. Help out new players and encourage them. Then one day you will accidentally succeed in your practice run.

 

P.S. On the other hand, if content is dying/dead in particular maps (low player population) or has general balance issues, it should be scaled appropriately. The Dragon's End meta is not such content, in my opinion.

Edit: I would only agree on one point of this post. The meta could be shortened. 2 hours of failure is a lot of time. If it can be reduced by an hour or even half an hour, that would be much better.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Tiz.3204

[Gazrul.3086]

The main issue for me is that if the boss event fails, it basically means that the last two hours of preparations have been wasted. So either the preparation phase should offer significantly better rewards or the final boss should receive a nerf to the timer. 

 

Just my two cents. I don't mind failing, but when failing means that I've wasted two hours for nothing then that feels bad. 

[Erise.5614]

20 minutes ago, Geckoo.6018 said:

The whole event would benefit from more partial rewards, specially during the fight. Encouraging participation even when it fails is the best way to diversify the types of squads participating and eventually succeeding.

That's not everything. I mean, the fight has lots of issues that aren't necessary and do not add to how challenging it is but rather add arbitrary difficulty. None of the mechanics are an issue. Requiring people to do more is not the problem. But the tight timer balanced around more than usual was a very bad idea given how many other issues the fight has.

There are a lot of questionable decisions in how the mechanics are used. Damaging the tail while it is in a different hemisphere is just poor design. Some animator had too much fun doing huge tail movements and everyone loved the dragon so much that they just completely ignored gameplay feedback here.

Rewards despite constant failure is gonna delay the problem but it's not solving that failing all the time is a bad experience. They'd have to buff those early rewards to something genuinely competitive with drizzle wood or T4 fractals for it to have any chance to find adoption despite constant failure. Aka rewards equivalent to ~3 summoning stones or over 200 rare unidentified gear or equivalent. For a failure. That's just not gonna happen. They won't ever buff the rewards of a success anywhere close to that and crash the market alongside it. 

 

Soo Won needs a serious rework with focus on gameplay, clarity and reducing the impact of high DPS. So it is actually more a matter of skill and good communication during the fight. Not a completely new thing. Just fixing lots of small issues that only look cool but affect gameplay more negatively than they have any right to.

[Tiz.3204]

6 minutes ago, Kotarnus.6217 said:

The main issue for me is that if the boss event fails, it basically means that the last two hours of preparations have been wasted. So either the preparation phase should offer significantly better rewards or the final boss should receive a nerf to the timer. 

 

Just my two cents. I don't mind failing, but when failing means that I've wasted two hours for nothing then that feels bad. 

Yes, this critique makes complete sense. I agree with you on this!

Edit: I think more rewards for pre-events is a good idea. I think the tight boss timer is cool and hasn't made me so excited for beating an event in a long time (since Dragon's Stand meta, I guess). I think nerfing Soo Won isn't a good way forward.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Tiz.3204

[Boh.4568]

I have cleared a fair amount of DE metas and I think the only real problems are the very long wait times during the preparations (30 minutes to finish events, 30 minutes to prepare, 30 minutes to nightfall, 30 minutes to clean your shoes, etc.) and the actual timer for the boss could be a bit higher (5 more minutes) to give more lenience towards those semi-organized groups who do all the mechanics but maybe have a mediocre DPS.

That said, the boss itself doesn't feel harder than let's say drakkar, I often join squads without discord, where the commander divides into groups without asking for roles, just so we know which group goes to fight which miniboss on the platforms, and then they just call for CC, tail, focus, etc in team broadcast. This is a chill group for me, and it's the kind of group that clears the meta 90% of the time no matter who joins, as long as we are enough for a full squad.

I'm also a bit biased towards less "chill" runs when I see that every single AoE with at least 5 seconds of big orange telegraph still manages to down a third of the squad...

[The Boz.2038]

For the people that find this meta too hard, which of the following steps would you be prepared to take in order to significantly improve your chances of beating the meta:

• copy a build from a known-good-builds website
• test own/copied build against aerodrome golem
• invest 1 hour before the event to do the pre phases
• join a discord and coordinate with other players
• join a group as quickness or alacrity team support
• seek and accept feedback on build and playstyle
• attempt the event for days and days and days
• invest in higher tier or more specialized equipment
• play a team support build with little offensive power
• ask around or lurk on LFG for an organized group

Note: Confusies cometh, so just want to clarify that I am not saying "do this or fail", I am legitimately asking. Each of these points increases your odds by a fair percentage. Doing them might be outside your comfort zone, but I'm really interested which of these you'd be willing to do...

Edited April 1, 2022 by The Boz.2038

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, Boh.4568 said:

I have cleared a fair amount of DE metas and I think the only real problems are the very long wait times during the preparations (30 minutes to finish events, 30 minutes to prepare, 30 minutes to nightfall, 30 minutes to clean your shoes, etc.) and the actual timer for the boss could be a bit higher (5 more minutes) to give more lenience towards those semi-organized groups who do all the mechanics but maybe have a mediocre DPS.

That said, the boss itself doesn't feel harder than let's say drakkar, I often join squads without discord, where the commander divides into groups without asking for roles, just so we know which group goes to fight which miniboss on the platforms, and then they just call for CC, tail, focus, etc in team broadcast. This is a chill group for me, and it's the kind of group that clears the meta 90% of the time no matter who joins, as long as we are enough for a full squad.

I'm also a bit biased towards less "chill" runs when I see that every single AoE with at least 5 seconds of big orange telegraph still manages to down a third of the squad...

Join squads where? And when?

Could region make a difference?

Because my LFG experience has been extremely different. Cleared it 4 times as well but only once with a PUG and with over a dozen PUG fails. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Gazrul.3086]

8 minutes ago, Tiz.3204 said:

Yes, this critique makes complete sense. I agree with you on this!

Edit: I think more rewards for pre-events is a good idea. I think the tight boss timer is cool and hasn't made me so excited for beating an event in a long time (since Dragon's Stand meta, I guess). I think nerfing Soo Won isn't a good way forward.

Indeed, I wouldn't mind if they leave the last boss as it is if they make it worthwhile to do the entire meta despite failing the boss. Right now it's way too much of an all or nothing scenario for such a long meta in my opinion.