I feel excluded from EoD because Soo Won meta event is too hard

[Astralporing.1957]

6 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

I feel like this is more a consequence of the game being complex, so improvements to the understanding of ow the game works are important but really difficult to teach.

Buildcraft for example is a skill which is way more difficult then most people realise.

Yes. precisely. The requirements there are for something that only a small minority of players can deal with. And for something that the game cannot really teach you well. Which is a massive problem in a game and content that is played mostly by casuals.

Basically, it is something that goes way deeper than just "the game does not teach". It's The game should teach, but cannot". Which is a design failure at a very core level.

[Bobzitto.8571]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Fun fact. In FF XIV, in any encounter, when a group wipes, it's generally clear why that was the case. If you fail due to dps check, you will know you failed due to dps check. If you failed due to a mechanic, you will also know that. And in FF XIV the answer to improving your dps is generally simple: polish your rotation more. Also, notice how i mentioned how dps checks are themselves extremely rare, especially in non-HC content.

In GW2, dps check is always there, in the background,and bigger dps is a solution to 80-90% of the problems you might face. At the same time, that (much more important than in FFXIV) part is also something that is much harder to improve upon, because it's hidden behind not one thing, but several systems with very complex and unclear interactions.

 

Find me a player that has a polished rotation without having checked external sources. I really, really doubt you'll find a DRK or DRG or SAM out there doing great rotations without having sought the correct rotation in The Balance. DPS checks are in literally every Savage and Extreme boss (is that HC? Or just ultimates?), specially when you're doing it at the correct gear level. Otherwise, yeah, they don't have enrage timers for the most part.

 

Also for DPS in GW2, I'll have to disagree here. There's plenty of mechanical fail. I remember when I did DE with random groups and you could tell a group was doomed on the very first smash the boss did when the fight began. You saw like 25 people get downed by standing in the shiny circle, you knew you were effed. 

(also, "bigger dps" is a solution for most bosses regardless of the game)

[Erise.5614]

5 minutes ago, Bobzitto.8571 said:

You don't need all. Get a healer and a quick provider and you're golden. Unless you find 3 DPS that play with their elbows. I haven't had it happen yet. If you're pugging, don't join a group that doesn't state what specifically needs. Also, how is requiring CM to do CM gatekeeping, for people farming it every day? You don't like it, go make your own group and get the challenge done, there is no gate being kept.

I mean, true as a basis. But some maps, some instabilities and some combinations of the two require very specific setups to overcome smoothly. 

Anecodte about yesterdays T4. We had Twilight Oasis with "We Bleed Fire". A catalyst and a gyro engi. Didn't know catalyst skills. Didn't know engi was playing gyros. Both had repeated pulsing damage which, with all the clones, just wiped us clean in seconds. We wiped 5 times during the first phase of the boss, lost a team member before I noticed and just asked them to keep their core skills down during the first phase. They had not noticed instabilities either.

These kinds of things happen very regularly in my T4 pug experience. Though I am not into gatekeeping and mostly request certain classes. I do not kick people for not bringing them and explicitly welcome any skill level in LFG. Hence my perspective focused around inexperienced people. I do go out of my way to be inclusionary and rather hop classes and try to explain / fix things instead of just keeping them out. 

You can say that's my own fault. But if I were to do that, I'd just be part of the issue. And not contribute in a very, very, very small way towards a better community. 

[Astralporing.1957]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

Your rotation?
A what?
Does the game tell you what your rotation is?

Not fully, but does help you arrive at a decent, simplified version of it, yes. It's all in the "procs" (skills that get active/upgraded when you use a preceding skill), and in adding new skills at different levels to help you with upgrading from basic rotation to complex one step by step. You can easily learn to play at 60-70% of top 1% players' effectiveness without ever looking at any  guide.

 

[The Boz.2038]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

You can easily learn to play at 60-70% of top 1% players' effectiveness without ever looking at any  guide.

Top DPS in this game is ~40k.
You have 1-button builds hitting 30k. No-button autoattacks hitting 25. 
So, mission accomplished?

[yann.1946]

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes. precisely. The requirements there are for something that only a small minority of players can deal with. And for something that the game cannot really teach you well. Which is a massive problem in a game and content that is played mostly by casuals.

It is ironicly also the catchphrase that "casuals" use the most when justifying there view on the game. 😛

Just now, Astralporing.1957 said:

Basically, it is something that goes way deeper than just "the game does not teach". It's The game should teach, but cannot". Which is a design failure at a very core level.

That i disagree with, i personally think the game would be worse of if we took that freedom of buildcraft away from people.

 

There is this broader duality in the game where seemingly "casual" part of the gamedesign are actually pretty hardcore.

 

-No vertical progression <-> unable to outgear content, so skill becomes more important.

 

- Play how you want <-> Lots of bad builds exist because of the freedom of choice. 

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, The Boz.2038 said:

Top DPS in this game is ~40k.
You have 1-button builds hitting 30k. No-button autoattacks hitting 25. 
So, mission accomplished?

Now, try to get at those builds without ever looking at outside sources. Good luck with that.

[Erise.5614]

8 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

We Bleed Fire has an internal cooldown of 2 seconds. It fires projectiles that you can block or reflect.

I am aware of all of that. The anecdote is about how indirect and obtuse feedback by the game is. No information about what attacks you died from, lots of small mechanics layering upon one another. Spotting these kinds of mistakes requires you to know all classes, all builds and all arising dynamics.

They triggered somewhere around 10 - 15 per 2 seconds (due to hitting so many clones) and we wiped within a minute. 

We fixed it without reflect by having everyone withhold their AOEs. But it takes quite a while due to how obtuse the game is about providing gameplay feedback.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Now, try to get at those builds without ever looking at outside sources. Good luck with that.

"Hmm. This stat set increases damage."
"Huh. This skill increases my autoattack."
* fusion dance *
Oh look, this autoattack revenant deals 23k DPS!

[yann.1946]

Just now, The Boz.2038 said:

"Hmm. This stat set increases damage."
"Huh. This skill increases my autoattack."
* fusion dance *
Oh look, this autoattack revenant deals 23k DPS!

Your underestimating how difficult buildcraft is for an average player.

And its not always that obvious that damage is the thing you wanna build for.

[The Boz.2038]

2 minutes ago, yann.1946 said:

Your underestimating how difficult buildcraft is for an average player.

And its not always that obvious that damage is the thing you wanna build for.

Yeah, possible, but the challenge was explicitly "do the deeps". 
I mean, you can build to be resistant to conditions. Six minutes of content will tell you that that maybe isn't really the strongest strategy. So you reiterate. 

Or are we pretending that FF14 gives you your build and rotation instantly fully formed?

[Astralporing.1957]

1 minute ago, yann.1946 said:

It is ironicly also the catchphrase that "casuals" use the most when justifying there view on the game. 😛

That i disagree with, i personally think the game would be worse of if we took that freedom of buildcraft away from people.

 

There is this broader duality in the game where seemingly "casual" part of the gamedesign are actually pretty hardcore.

Yes, because they are only "seemingly" casual, but in reality not casual at all.

Although, tbh, it's not the freedom of choice that is the greatest problem here. It's the gap that exists between the best and the worst options. If that gap was 2x, and not closer to 40x (or even worse, because bad builds can be really, really bad), we would not be in so much trouble as we are.

 

1 minute ago, yann.1946 said:

-No vertical progression <-> unable to outgear content, so skill becomes more important.

Ironically, while skill indeed becomes more important, it's still massively overshadowed by that second feature. Making a proper build and gear even more important.

1 minute ago, yann.1946 said:

- Play how you want <-> Lots of bad builds exist because of the freedom of choice. 

"Play how you want" is not the same as "we'll give you a ton of choices, but 99% of those will be extremely bad".

"Play how you want" was supposed to mean "have fun in multiple ways without being forced to have fun only the way we want".

[Veprovina.4876]

On 3/31/2022 at 5:36 PM, Kaloken.9461 said:

The organized squads I found don't seem to teach or require knowing the mechanics, but they also require to be able to ping legendary insights and a raid role.

Wait, what? Squads are now asking killproof in order to do Dragon's End?

Now, that's just a new low, and hopefully a wakeup call for anet to redesign the event. This goes against everything open world stands for. And if someone again quotes me how killproof isn't exclusionary, i'll just point them to this.

 

Hang in there OP, you can get the turtle mount by trading it for writs, and you're not the first one that dislikes the event.

Hopefully Anet will finally listen before it devolves into "raiders only" elitist event.

[Cuks.8241]

2 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Now, try to get at those builds without ever looking at outside sources. Good luck with that.

I would say an average gamer that has background with rpgs or is just generally interested in such content should easily create a build that is quite simple to execute and should bench at 20k dps without any outside knowledge.

Basically when I started PVE I did just that. I was testing different classes and build, put together something that made sense, benched it and see where it lands. And I havent even benched it in controlled enviroment, always live. And this is not a statement of how good I am because this was literary I will make power build, take power trait lines, power weapons and check which utilities have synergies. Press skills for some time, see whats worth pressing, lets bench it. 

People often missuse and throw these silly numbers without context. Average player does 5k DPS, raider do 40K DPS, and I just did 0 context.

[Bobzitto.8571]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

"Play how you want" is not the same as "we'll give you a ton of choices, but 99% of those will be extremely bad".

"Play how you want" was supposed to mean "have fun in multiple ways without being forced to have fun only the way we want".

I believe it was called "The illusion of choice"?

[The Boz.2038]

4 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Wait, what? Squads are now asking killproof in order to do Dragon's End?

Now, that's just a new low, and hopefully a wakeup call for anet to redesign the event. This goes against everything open world stands for. And if someone again quotes me how killproof isn't exclusionary, i'll just point them to this.

 

Hang in there OP, you can get the turtle mount by trading it for writs, and you're not the first one that dislikes the event.

Hopefully Anet will finally listen before it devolves into "raiders only" elitist event.

I'm yet to see such a squad, honestly. 

[Erise.5614]

Just now, Cuks.8241 said:

I would say an average gamer that has background with rpgs or is just generally interested in such content should easily create a build that is quite simple to execute and should bench at 20k dps without any outside knowledge.

Basically when I started PVE I did just that. I was testing different classes and build, put together something that made sense, benched it and see where it lands. And I havent even benched it in controlled enviroment, always live. And this is not a statement of how good I am because this was literary I will make power build, take power trait lines, power weapons and check which utilities have synergies. Press skills for some time, see whats worth pressing, lets bench it. 

People often missuse and throw these silly numbers without context. Average player does 5k DPS, raider do 40K DPS, and I just did 0 context.

50 player squad, majority with full map boons, boon subgroups, 10x quick & alac 

During the third Soo Won phase. 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

5 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

Wait, what? Squads are now asking killproof in order to do Dragon's End?

There always was one or two squads asking for some form of KP in the first week of EoD, but those squads are gone.
The strictest squads nowadays are the ones asking for 10-10 Quickness and Alac.

[The Boz.2038]

1 minute ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

There always was one or two squads asking for some form of KP in the first week of EoD, but those squads are gone.
The strictest squads nowadays are the ones asking for 10-10 Quickness and Alac.

Those I do see.
How toxic, to try and improve your odds. Wow.

[Cuks.8241]

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

50 player squad, majority with full map boons, boon subgroups, 10x quick & alac 

During the third Soo Won phase. 

Yes yes, I know how this looks like. But this is completely irrelevant. This is actually the exact missuse of information that I meant from last sentence. 

This is not a good enviroment for benching. These players did not have full boons, that is surely not true.

These players have no intention on improving DPS or doing content that requires it. They havent created build for purpose of DPS.

This is actually probably sufficient for this meta if they are able to stay alive fairly well.

 

EDIT: Oh btw, did you win the meta? And if not how far have you landed?

Edited April 5, 2022 by Cuks.8241

[yann.1946]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, because they are only "seemingly" casual, but in reality not casual at all.

Although, tbh, it's not the freedom of choice that is the greatest problem here. It's the gap that exists between the best and the worst options. If that gap was 2x, and not closer to 40x (or even worse, because bad builds can be really, really bad), we would not be in so much trouble as we are.

This gap is he consequence of the choice. If you give people the option to play lets say a dps, support and tanky spec. As long as you allow mixing of these (which you need if you want people to have freedom in how they play) some really bad builds will exist.

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Ironically, while skill indeed becomes more important, it's still massively overshadowed by that second feature. Making a proper build and gear even more important.

I mean gearquality is not important (the choice of stats is, but thats buildcraft, not geargrind)

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"Play how you want" is not the same as "we'll give you a ton of choices, but 99% of those will be extremely bad".

They are, notice how when you mentioned the reason FFIV was so much better in teaching the lack of choice in how you build your character was important. 

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

"Play how you want" was supposed to mean "have fun in multiple ways without being forced to have fun only the way we want".

Yes which means you will have a lot of bad builds. 

[yann.1946]

6 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

50 player squad, majority with full map boons, boon subgroups, 10x quick & alac 

During the third Soo Won phase. 

I personally experienced problems with how arc  works in open world when people die.

I died and the damage arc thought i had done on the boss was 0 when i flew back. So i dont actually know how  usefull a tool it is to judge performance in OW.

(I agree with the general observation though)

[Veprovina.4876]

18 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

I'm yet to see such a squad, honestly. 

Well, i wouldn't be surprised. I gave up on DE cause it's too long and i hate wasting my time on it, it's not fun, it's not well designed, it's bad. So i really don't check squads for it. But if people are selling strike clears - which are totally doable by pugs - i wouldn't be surprised someone asking killproof for dragon's end...

 

Oh well... But i'm intrigued, i'll keep watch on the meta squads and strike squads, see if this really happens. Though, this might be one of those NA vs EU mentality things... 

 

The worst thing is - Dragon's end, if it's just from when the preevents start to Soo-Won, and if they removed the RNG, could have been an ok meta. You don't really need tons of DPS, that's not the problem, the problem for most people is the time investment and getting nothing in return if it fails. Why you have to do even 1 "day" event to get a buff is beyond me. That's like having to do entire day cycle pylon activation in Auric Basin to be even able to attempt Octovine. Who thought this was a good idea?

 

There's nothing wrong with mechanically intense metas or having to do a bit more DPS (which for soo won you really don't), but requiring a 2 hour preparation before you even get to fight her is asinine. And what's worse is the RNG involved. It makes it impossible to learn the mechanics cause they're always different, you never know if something will overlap that will cause you to be unable to DPS her and the entire meta can fail, not because people weren't good enough, but because 5 mechanics overlapped, you couldn't DPS her, and now you lost 7 minutes on containing bullkitten before you have a chance to DPS her again. 

 

The meta needs a redesign from the ground up, not nerfs, just redesign of its mechanics to remove RNG and the requrement to do day events. And better rewards. Should reward antique summoning stone by default on success, plus the choice award, not like this. And should reward participation like any other long meta since this game started. Like, they already nailed the design of long metas - reward people along the way... Then someone makes Dragon's End... I mean, come on.

Edited April 5, 2022 by Veprovina.4876

[Erise.5614]

7 minutes ago, Cuks.8241 said:

Yes yes, I know how this looks like. But this is completely irrelevant. This is actually the exact missuse of information that I meant from last sentence. 

This is not a good enviroment for benching. These players did not have full boons, that is surely not true.

These players have no intention on improving DPS or doing content that requires it. They havent created build for purpose of DPS.

This is actually probably sufficient for this meta if they are able to stay alive fairly well.

I mean. Yes. That's the problem. Open world builds aren't optimized for DPS.
What kind of average pugs do you talk about? And I'd be thrilled to see data suggesting otherwise!

All the people claiming success with low DPS are like "but this was only 5k average throughout the entire encounter!" while having an average DPS of 16k during burn phases (just to reference that HS commander from yesterday posting their full minion necro run). 

I'd really like to see a run with 6k average burn succeed.

Edit: The meta failed during the 3 split phase. So about ~5 minutes off. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Geckoo.6018]

25 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Now, try to get at those builds without ever looking at outside sources. Good luck with that.

Someone did, thats why an outside source for the build exists.

Is not a matter of the game being unclear or not teaching stuff, is a matter of interest.

No matter how good and clear the instructions are, when it comes to RPGs (MMORPGs to be more specific) you'll always have players that like to toy around with the tools provided to build their character as optimal as possible, players that want the same thing but lack the patience or knowledge to find that for themselves, so they rely on other's people knowledge and finally players that don't care about any of that and just want to have fun playing with something that looks cool in their eyes.