Killproofing with proofs from other kind of content is way too common

[Zychuu.7294]

(Not a 1st of april shitpost btw)

 

To begin with: I can understand why people want to killproof players they meet on LFG. While the world probably would be a better place if everyone had time and will to do their weekly raid clear while wiping on every boss for hours, but training new people, most people on LFG don't care and want to just go for their kill.

 

Yet still it annoys me that there is so few kinds of content with unique klillproofs, which leads to it being used on unrelated kinds of content. Raid LI somehow become go-to killproof for EVERYTHING and it annoys the hell out of me. Want to do IBS strike? Bring LI(especially funny when there is IBS boneskinner KP but some squads still go for LI). Want to do daily harvest temple? Bring LI. People are even asking for LI for dragon's end meta squads where they plan to force a new instance for them(which is why there should be private squad DE, but that's a digression). Pretty much only fractals are being killproof'ed by fractal currencies and titles, everything else runs on Li. 

 

That makes me wonder if this kind of behaviour should be acceptable state of the things in the first place, both by players and by Anet. In my opinion, if it's fine to ask for killproof in general, then most content hard enough to varrant asking for any proof should award unique one for that content. You can be master fractal CM runner, clear harvest temple and Dragon's End daily out of boredom, be capable at different classes and yet still you have nothing to show for it and you'll get booted from LFG because you weren't doing that one elevated kind of content everyone thinks makes people into better players because they were mindlessly farming some easier wings for months as dps when learning nothing, so that surely means they will be useful for that organised Dragon's End run, right?

 

Just to reiterate: I'm NOT against the idea of bringing killproofs when LFG'ing. But I'm annoyed that people are missusing raid LI as killproof for almost everything else in the game.

 

That being said... I do understand that it's kinda pointless endevour to ask for any 'quality control' on lfg, considering that entire board is spammed with raid selling ads most of the time...

Edited April 1, 2022 by Zychuu.7294

[mythical.6315]

They’re used to gauge a certain level of skill and competency. It’s assume that what you had towards the content that the killproof came from would carry over to the content that they’re being used to filter out players.  Someone with a lot of raid KP would be more likely to perform better in a strike than someone without any. 

[mindcircus.1506]

If you don't like or agree with someone's team requirements (no matter what they are) it is on you to create your or team or join a different one.

[soul.9651]

7 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

"They’re used to gauge a certain level of skill and competency."

How competent the comm is when while asking for 500li he doesnt have that amount himself or just is leeching the whole harvest temple?:DD oh man good April 1st joke imagine everyone with li beeing competent

Edited April 2, 2022 by soul.9651

[Sarius.9285]

1 hour ago, soul.9651 said:

How competent the comm is when while asking for 500li he doesnt have that amount himself or just is leeching the whole harvest temple?:DD oh man good April 1st joke imagine everyone with li beeing competent

those are not the norm and should always be blocked 

[soul.9651]

17 minutes ago, Sarius.9285 said:

those are not the norm and should always be blocked 

I mean not saying its 100% all the time but man i lost trust on some li groups

[Melech.4308]

Because of lack of currency on certain strikes, LI is the "go to" currency for killproof. That's why some commanders in EU ask for boneskinner KP instead. Another thing is that you can register your account in killproof.me and just give the link to the commander as well.

For Harvest Temple, I've been saying it before, but I think that the Void chest you get at the end may be the killproof people may need; especially since CMs are coming soon for EoD strikes. But let's see.

[Firebeard.1746]

I was so mad at some of the killproofers here, I almost made a JS KP generator and embedded it in a github project. But in practice, it's not that hard to falsify KP. Some of the characters in chatlinks are the number portion in the link. If you think of some of the characters like a hex character and understand that some of the bits are for the object and some are for the count, it's actually not that hard to mess with the chatlinks to create KP. 

[Sindust.7059]

I hate the fact that we either have to keep a bunch of trash in our inventory or use an external website to begin with. Considering how kill proofs are basically a necessity in end-game content, ANet should just implement an in-game tool for it. 

[soul.9651]

3 minutes ago, Sindust.7059 said:

I hate the fact that we either have to keep a bunch of trash in our inventory or use an external website to begin with. Considering how kill proofs are basically a necessity in end-game content, ANet should just implement an in-game tool for it. 

Or make something purchasable with all of those raid tokens and ufe like mount skins or titles anet plz ;-; so there is no need to keep them and we can show that instead 

[chronometria.3708]

Raid kill proofs are an obstacle to arenanets vision of strikes being popular content. Someone can do lots of strikes and yet will constantly be blocked from groups due to demands of raid accomplishment.

It would be like needing raid proofs to do fractals.

Edited April 2, 2022 by chronometria.3708

[Tails.9372]

One thing to note is that "kill prove" (if possible) only exists for content where taking in randoms can significantly stall (beyond what most people would find acceptable) or even fail the run / encounter and in regards to strikes this is really more of a screw-up on A-Nets part than anything else.

According to the developers SMs were supposed to provide a learning environment for the basic mechanics going forward without the pressure of your typical raid environment and the fact that many people feel the need to ask for KP / "know mechanics" here is just prove of their failure to deliver in that regard.

What they should have done here is to design the encounters in a way that rewards a good execution of the mechanics instead of punishing a bad one and reserve the later for the CMs. Would this approatch have complaetly turned-off the "hardcore part of the playerbase which thinks that everything is already too easy"? Yes, but they were never the target audience for this content to begin with and A-Net seemingly having lost side of that is why SMs are continuing to fail at what they were originally supposed to do.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Tails.9372

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

6 hours ago, mindcircus.1506 said:

If you don't like or agree with someone's team requirements (no matter what they are) it is on you to create your or team or join a different one.

How about you move? Leave the LFG to the normal players and make an elitist farming and raid-selling platform on your own? 

[Jajo.1428]

1 hour ago, chronometria.3708 said:

Raid kill proofs are an obstacle to arenanets vision of strikes being popular content. Someone can do lots of strikes and yet will constantly be blocked from groups due to demands of raid accomplishment.

It would be like needing raid proofs to do fractals.

Exactly. And it goes directly against ANet's explicitly stated intention of strikes being stepping stones towards raids.

[Cyninja.2954]

Story time:

Yesterday after running T4+recs+98CM+99CM (didn't go for 100CM because we were on new builds and just messing around) after a long hiatus from fractals with 4 guildies  we decided to run harvest temple strike.

 

Setup:

- 2 heal mechanists, me and 1 guildie

- 2 quickness harbingers, the other 2 guildies

 

LFG was placed by me as follows: daily harvest | 6 dps | know mechanics

 

I placed the LFG, pressed the big shiny bar in the middle of the screen to load into the strike, around 2-3 seconds load time, to find 6 people had instant joined. The KP requirement groups in the LFG are more visible BECAUSE other groups fill faster.

 

Did we succeed? Sure, and bar some downstates and even 1 early death due to 1 player dying in the 2nd phase beam attack, we succeeded first try (it did turn into a kitten show the last 10% with 4 more joining in ritual seppuku). Damage was mediocre but fine.

 

TL;DR:

KP requirement groups fill slower. Not using KP requirements can mean wider swings in player skill. If you can run with guildies your life will be easier and the game more fun. If you are semi decent at understanding this games fundamentals you'll be fine in this type of content.

[Mortime.1359]

WoW used to have an issue like this where anyone wanting to do a mythic+ dungeon had to raise and be prepared to have their "rating" checked on a third party website, in this case it was raider.io. On one side were people who said that it was necessary to see the score because m+ dungeons at least on higher keys are pretty challenging content and you don't want to bring people who have no clue into them. On the other side people were mad that content was being gatekept by said website and people using it. So finally Blizzard just made their own in game rating for completing m+ dungeons and now it shows to anyone creating groups or queing up what the other persons m+ score is for the dungeon being prepared for.

 

So long story short if people think this is an issue just keep bringing it up to Anet and they might actually do something about it.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

The reason is the same as in Raids pretty much. "Skill level". The person with 100 LI should be better. 

People probably use LI for Strikes is because it's not random, Boney tokens are. You kill a Raid boss it's one LI. You kill Boney you can get no Token, 3 token(silver), and 9/30(gold).
EoD Strikes also have no token of their own, but they give an LI each week. I've seen people use Strike boss Coffers as a form of KP, which is even dumber than asking for LI for Strikes.

Last week I put up an LFG looking for a BS, AlacDPS and a QuickDPS for Kaineng, got 2 DPS and a Heal Scourge, those are the times when I want to ask for like 5 LI..

[Kate.3679]

7 minutes ago, Mortime.1359 said:

WoW used to have an issue like this where anyone wanting to do a mythic+ dungeon had to raise and be prepared to have their "rating" checked on a third party website, in this case it was raider.io. On one side were people who said that it was necessary to see the score because m+ dungeons at least on higher keys are pretty challenging content and you don't want to bring people who have no clue into them. On the other side people were mad that content was being gatekept by said website and people using it. So finally Blizzard just made their own in game rating for completing m+ dungeons and now it shows to anyone creating groups or queing up what the other persons m+ score is for the dungeon being prepared for.

 

So long story short if people think this is an issue just keep bringing it up to Anet and they might actually do something about it.

There's already a website for this for GW2. It's called killproof.me

[Mortime.1359]

10 minutes ago, Ruru.1302 said:

There's already a website for this for GW2. It's called killproof.me

The point was more that if there was an ingame UI element that showed that the person in question has indeed completed the content then there would be no need for third party websites or to link anything from your inventory. Edit: and it would be hard to spoof it also if the game literally said what you have completed and how many times or something.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Mortime.1359

[Fuchslein.8639]

15 minutes ago, Mortime.1359 said:

The point was more that if there was an ingame UI element that showed that the person in question has indeed completed the content then there would be no need for third party websites or to link anything from your inventory. Edit: and it would be hard to spoof it also if the game literally said what you have completed and how many times or something.

I don't think this would work with the gw2 community.

[Veprovina.4876]

15 hours ago, mythical.6315 said:

They’re used to gauge a certain level of skill and competency. It’s assume that what you had towards the content that the killproof came from would carry over to the content that they’re being used to filter out players.  Someone with a lot of raid KP would be more likely to perform better in a strike than someone without any. 

You know what? I know this explanation, and heard it before, but i hard disagree.

 

I have 15 killproof. Maybe even 20, i don't look at that stuff.

How does that translate to me doing well in a strike as opposed to someone who doesn't have any?

Do you know where i got the killproof from? Wing 1 *exclusively*, and most of those KP did not include Sabetha, or even Gorseval for a while because we couldn't beat them. 

 

Meanwhile, someone has been running strikes all this time, knows all the mechanics and never touched raids, but just because i killed Vale guardian a few times is supposed to mean i'm better at strikes than the person without KP?

 

How does KP even translate to being good at Wing 2 even? I'd still need to know and master the mechanics of it, and i can do that with or without any KP. Same with strikes - which are even blown way out of proportion how hard they are, most pugs that have done a strike with me for their first time, did just fine and managed to grasp all the mechanics almost immediately. 

Meanwhile, i still don't know how i'd command Sabetha, what platform someone needs to go to and where to stand, but i have KP of Sabetha. Does that mean i'm competent? No, it doesn't.

 

KP only exist so people can be elitist and want only raiders in their strike groups, but it has nothing to do with being competent at anything. Not even raids to be honest.

[Cyninja.2954]

10 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You know what? I know this explanation, and heard it before, but i hard disagree.

 

I have 15 killproof. Maybe even 20, i don't look at that stuff.

How does that translate to me doing well in a strike as opposed to someone who doesn't have any?

Do you know where i got the killproof from? Wing 1 *exclusively*, and most of those KP did not include Sabetha, or even Gorseval for a while because we couldn't beat them. 

Which is "proof" that you have some experience with challenging instanced content. The most recent open world fiasko in regards to DE shows how important that is in regards to the overall player population.

Quote

Meanwhile, someone has been running strikes all this time, knows all the mechanics and never touched raids, but just because i killed Vale guardian a few times is supposed to mean i'm better at strikes than the person without KP?

It doesn't, but there is no "easy" strike killproof one can use, so players use the next best thing they can.

Quote

How does KP even translate to being good at Wing 2 even? I'd still need to know and master the mechanics of it, and i can do that with or without any KP. Same with strikes - which are even blown way out of proportion how hard they are, most pugs that have done a strike with me for their first time, did just fine and managed to grasp all the mechanics almost immediately. 

Meanwhile, i still don't know how i'd command Sabetha, what platform someone needs to go to and where to stand, but i have KP of Sabetha. Does that mean i'm competent? No, it doesn't.

It doesn't translate. What it does is work as a preselection, then fine selection is done after. If you join a KP and experience required group without having one of both and noticeably failing, you most likely WILL get removed. Worst case, you'd even get a place on a blacklist, which gets shared among high tier guilds in some cases.

Quote

 

KP only exist so people can be elitist and want only raiders in their strike groups, but it has nothing to do with being competent at anything. Not even raids to be honest.

That's a very shallow view on KP and very biased at that. Yes in an ideal world there would be better ways to judge other players ability to complete content. In that world players would also be 100% honest and no sort of kill proofing would be required.

Alas we are not living in such an ideal world and the methods to create groups around similar skilled players are imperfect.

In the meantime everyone gets to play the way they like and with whom they like, isn't that the common mantra? You don't get to judge on how other players decide to build their groups. You get to decide how you make your group.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Veprovina.4876]

1 minute ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

Which is "proof" that you have some experience with challenging instanced content. The most recent open world fiasko in regards to DE shows how important that is in regards to the overall player population.

 

I disagree with that too. The recent open world fiasco has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with bad design. Overlapping mechanics, short *random* windows where you actually get to attack the boss, 3 hour commitment to the map without any rewards (making people not want to even try to be good at the event), and the antithesis of the design philosophy that Anet was careful to follow all those years, that went down the drain with 1 map event for the sake of "difficulty" which is - you should never feel bad for meeting another player in open world. Yet you have a huge event that should have been an instanced version like Dragonstorm, in the same realm as people trying to do fishing achievements.

And now you have people telling people to GTFO the map or even paying them off. How's that for being happy about meeting and playing with other players?

 

The event ferments toxicity, and needs to go away from open world, but it has nothing to do with difficulty.

 

6 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

It doesn't, but there is no "easy" strike killproof one can use, so players use the next best thing they can.

 

That's because it shouldn't exist. And i'm glad it doesn't because you'd get the same elitism raids do, and people are already scaring everyone on how hard strikes are and then selling clears. Meanwhile, i exclusively run pug groups and we clear all the same. Maybe it lasts a few minutes longer.

Raid KP have no meaning even in raids, let alone outside of them, and if Anet wants to push people towards strikes so much, they're going to need to keep all that raid nonesense out of it. Why?

Well, because i've had people who were terrified about joining my squad, that they'll be a burden, that they'll mess up somehow or that they'll be stressed the entire strike because of the difficulty and in the end they ended up having fun and thanking me.

KP only adds to that overblown sense of difficulty and prevents people from trying, making this little exclusive circle of only raiders that will inevitably start selling strikes to people who were scared off by that same group. This is basically raiders trying to somehow monopolize content. 

 

12 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

It doesn't translate. What it does is work as a preselection, then fine selection is done after. If you join a KP and experience required group without having one of both and noticeably failing, you most likely WILL get removed.

 

 

13 minutes ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

 

That's a very shallow view on KP and very biased at that. Yes in an ideal world there would be better ways to judge other players ability to complete content. In that world players would also be 100% honest and no sort of kill proofing would be required.

 

Alas we are not living in such an ideal world and the methods to create groups around similar skilled players are imperfect.

 

No, sorry, you're wrong. In raids - although it fails to do that - as a preselection as you mentioned, sure. I get why in raids KP exists.

But i'm talking about strikes, and taking something from raiding, the hardest content, into strikes - an easy content by comparison - is elitist. Because it assumes only raiders are skilled enough to clear strikes, and that's a big fat lie. Everyone can clear strikes, you don't even need a full squad to do some of them. It needlesly intimidates players who would otherwise have been great at strikes from trying them, leaving only an "elite" group to do them. Hence - elitist.

In raids - yes, they serve a purpose, although a flawed one.

In strikes - they are exclusionary, and fearmongering.

[Asum.4960]

45 minutes ago, Veprovina.4876 said:

You know what? I know this explanation, and heard it before, but i hard disagree.

 

I have 15 killproof. Maybe even 20, i don't look at that stuff.

How does that translate to me doing well in a strike as opposed to someone who doesn't have any?

Do you know where i got the killproof from? Wing 1 *exclusively*, and most of those KP did not include Sabetha, or even Gorseval for a while because we couldn't beat them. 

 

Meanwhile, someone has been running strikes all this time, knows all the mechanics and never touched raids, but just because i killed Vale guardian a few times is supposed to mean i'm better at strikes than the person without KP?

 

How does KP even translate to being good at Wing 2 even? I'd still need to know and master the mechanics of it, and i can do that with or without any KP. Same with strikes - which are even blown way out of proportion how hard they are, most pugs that have done a strike with me for their first time, did just fine and managed to grasp all the mechanics almost immediately. 

Meanwhile, i still don't know how i'd command Sabetha, what platform someone needs to go to and where to stand, but i have KP of Sabetha. Does that mean i'm competent? No, it doesn't.

 

KP only exist so people can be elitist and want only raiders in their strike groups, but it has nothing to do with being competent at anything. Not even raids to be honest.

KP gating isn't a personal attack against you or your skill, nor does anyone imply or say that any individual player without LI is a bad player, nor that any individual player with high LI is a good player. 

What's an indisputable fact though is that on average groups that ask for LI clear content much smoother and faster, deal with less leavers and tbh, generally are far less prone to toxicity due to different mentalities clashing - as can be the case with all welcome groups, as well as making group building far easier by getting players that on average are much more likely to being able to cover multiple roles on demand. 

 

So no, players at large don't just KP gate their groups (not the content) because they are elitist and just want to exclude people for the heck of it. 

I'd even go as far to assume that most players who gate do so regretfully. I certainly didn't ever want to exclude any competent, enthusiastic players just because they are new, or whatever the case might be. Quite the opposite - why would I not want to see the content I enjoy playing the most be experienced and enjoyed by as many players as possible?.

But frankly, while I prefer doing all welcome runs and such when playing casually now and then, whenever I play some more hardcore content regularly, KP gating sooner or later is almost a must, otherwise people constantly refusing the communicate their roles, not listening to mechanic explanations, not learning, quitting mid runs, flaming other players who are trying to give them tips due to getting defensive, etc., just becomes a mental health hazard. 

Gating groups with LI and the like is heavily flawed, yes. It excludes already competent or enthusiastic to learn new players, it stifles growth of content playerbases, it doesn't guarantee any individual to be a competent player etc., but what it also does - on average - is get things done, in an efficient and on average more friendly and communicative environment at that.

Quote

And i'm glad it doesn't because you'd get the same elitism raids do, and people are already scaring everyone on how hard strikes are and then selling clears.

The people demonizing hardcore content through propagating how difficult and toxic it is, both of which are generally false, are certainly not the people invested in it.

Edited April 2, 2022 by Asum.4960

[Wintermute.5408]

A rule of thumb - any group asking for LI is made of absolute scrubs. They will fail, they will die, they'll disband upon the first wipe, and it's in your best interest to just avoid them alltogether.

I really don't know why it's that way. But even raid runs asking for LI are absolute plague, each time without fail. Last time we wiped 5 times on 150 LI W1, on Sabetha, before comm just silently ragequitted. I can only guess people farm their kitten-kitten LI on escort and spirit river, or just fake it, because I swear an average training run has less braindead people than LI ones.