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CC is Over The Top


Svarty.8019

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With EoD and Anet's new emphasis on CC, it's inevitable that the knock-on effect be a nightmare in competitive modes, and so it is. 

 

I'm writing to politely request that CC be nerfed considerably in WvW, because watching cooldowns for 10 seconds or more IS THE OPPOSITE OF FUN!

 

CC is Over The Top.

 

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1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

CC is weaker than any other MMO I've played.

Most other mmo's don't have a ton of aoe cc's, even have diminishing returns on them, this game uses stability as the catch all to prevent all cc effects. Carry a pocket guard with you!

3 hours ago, Svarty.8019 said:

With EoD and Anet's new emphasis on CC, it's inevitable that the knock-on effect be a nightmare in competitive modes, and so it is. 

I'm writing to politely request that CC be nerfed considerably in WvW, because watching cooldowns for 10 seconds or more IS THE OPPOSITE OF FUN!

CC is Over The Top.

Just means we need more stability spam! Every heal in the game should give stability too!

Edited by Xenesis.6389
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11 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

CC became spammed and horrible since feb20... people focused on stunlocking instead of killing fast lol

I've never died to being CC locked unless I'm being 10vs1'd. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!" 24s cd(traited), multiple things, gives barrier, aoe stun breaks. Most CC's are 2x the cooldown of this

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Just to add to this: If you really want to shake up the large-scale meta, CC is the best thing to address.

When other people complain about the meta they want to nerf stability, cleanses and projectile blocks, because they are solo players plonking away with their longbows at range. They don't want to change the meta they're just jealous or unhappy about their inadequacies as players.

The things that are actually excluded from the meta are all melee damage stuff. Soulbeasts were made to be melee. Warrior builds are all essentially melee. Guards that do other things than just support are melee (things like LB Zerker or Staff DH are happy accidents, they were not built to do what they do). Catalysts and Untamed are melee. Reapers are melee. The list goes on. You do not open up the meta for any of those by making it harder to move and get into melee. The CC is the reason they are out of meta. The best way to "nerf" stability is to not make it mandatory. It can be nice to have but not mandatory, and it's fine.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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7 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I've never died to being CC locked unless I'm being 10vs1'd. 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/"Protect_Me!" 24s cd(traited), multiple things, gives barrier, aoe stun breaks. Most CC's are 2x the cooldown of this

I will give you an extrem example, probably unplayable in reality offering extrem amount of control:

Untamed

Utilities: Launch on 20s CD, daze on 20s C, Knock down on 25s CD.

Weapon: daze on 15s CD, Knock down on 25s CD, stun on 20s CD, knock back on 25s CD.

Trait: Reduce all CD by 2s whenever you disable a foe.

Pet: Knock down 30s CD (canine), launch 20s CD (gazelle), daze 15s CD (gazelle).

Do you really think a measly "Protect me!" on 24s CD can handle that amount of CC? And I'm not listing or even trying to add immobilize (canine have it, you can take entangle on to of the thing I linked... etc.).

 

You could also go with an annoying immob druid, with:

Utilities: glyph of equality (24s CD), Glyph of alignement (20s CD), Glyph of the tides (16s CD), Entangle (60s CD)

Avatar: Lunar impact (8s CD), Natural convergence (10s CD)

Weapon: vine surge (16s CD), crippling shot (12s CD), concussion shot (25s CD)

Trait: daze on weapon swap (8s CD), immob on disable (10s CD)

+ Pets.

 

So yes, I totally agree with the OP that control abilities have gone out of control. I'm also glad that most ranger don't exploit their CC potential (This is a big thank you to all of you rangers!).

 

We could also go on with necromancer chaining the god forsaken fear bull...

 

NB: None of those CC are 2x the cool down of things like "protect me!". Even elementalist's armor of earth would have a hard time taking on this amount of CC and that is if all it's stab stacks aren't instantly removed via boon hate (boon conversion/boon rip) on relatively short CD due to being tied to the ambushs.

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1 hour ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

The things that are actually excluded from the meta are all melee damage stuff. Soulbeasts were made to be melee. Warrior builds are all essentially melee. Guards that do other things than just support are melee (things like LB Zerker or Staff DH are happy accidents, they were not built to do what they do). Catalysts and Untamed are melee. Reapers are melee. The list goes on. You do not open up the meta for any of those by making it harder to move and get into melee. The CC is the reason they are out of meta. The best way to "nerf" stability is to not make it mandatory. It can be nice to have but not mandatory, and it's fine.

Have you ever tried to play those melee builds without cc? Good luck landing any significant amounts of dmg. So maybe those melee builds are not as good, because they rely on cc to actually deal dmg and zergs run arround with perma cc immunity?

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

So yes, I totally agree with the OP that control abilities have gone out of control. I'm also glad that most ranger don't exploit their CC potential (This is a big thank you to all of you rangers!).

 

Yes, completely unplayable builds are surely a convincing argument for "cc being out of control". There is a reason why most rangers don't go all out on cc and it's not because they want to be nice.

CC is often neccessary to kill, and players are supposed to die, like it or not. So if cc is the only (or main) reason you die - that's why cc is and should stay in the game (i die because of cc too sometimes, don't worry).

But cc is also not worth focusing a build arround, due to an overabundance of stab, stun breaks and general counterplay.

Many ccs are easy to avoid, and not every cc needs to be stunbroken. Dealing with cc is all about timing and cd management. It adds a layer of skill to the game and removing or nerfing it further would just dumb down the game even more.

This doesn't mean every single cc skill is fine or underpowered. Some certainly could need a few adjustments. But there is no general issue with cc. Just a few individual skills maybe. And same with stab and stun breaks. Especially all that "free/semi passive" 1 stack of stab they added to many of the new specs is something i really dislike. Stab should require a conscious and deliberate player decision and then it should actually deal with multiple ccs for a reasonable duration, but also on a rather lengthy cd, so if it is mistimed, it can get punished.

Edited by UmbraNoctis.1907
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1 hour ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

Have you ever tried to play those melee builds without cc? Good luck landing any significant amounts of dmg. So maybe those melee builds are not as good, because they rely on cc to actually deal dmg and zergs run arround with perma cc immunity?

Well, there are multiple answers to that question:


1) Yes, I have and it works fine enough

This game is built in a way where it is supposed to be challenging to connect, that's what's meant to occupy players. There are several melee builds that do not have an abundance of CC that I still manage to do damage with. For example, I don't think the biggest problem on eg., a Willbender now is its inability to stick things. The biggest problem is that the leaps/shadow steps are too few and short to compete with other things meant to be fast. I'd rather have more melee builds that I have trouble shaking off my tail than I'd have melee that takes away my ability to move or press buttons. This is especially important in small scale because control makes it so much easier to gank. Fighting outmanned is much easier with less control.

Overall, I always found the shield-stun, bull-rush, etc. type of Warrior builds pretty stale. To this day it has the capacity to just kill people outright if/when they lack the necessary cooldowns. That's hardly the epitome of good PvP as some people make it out to be. It may be fun in mirrors and against certain builds with counterplay to it, but it always had pretty severe balance issues relative classes and builds that were behind. It's an interesting overall discussion regarding the Warrior class with all the nerfs that has been stacked up against it now for a couple of years. Yes, times have been tough for Warriors, no lie. However, much of the issues has more to do with Thieves being untouched while Warriors got touched and its not like all other classes run circles around Warriors now. It's alot to it.

2) Nerfing CC does not imply removing CC. Just not have so much of it that stability becomes mandatory.

There just have to be less of it or the developer simply needs to return to a more simplistic and robust way to balance CC (ie., the old unstackable stability mechanics and balance was always better than what we have had since). The whole stability being stacks and CC-spam taking stacks is part of the overall boon/condi/cc/peel spam problem. The spam and volatility risking major balance issues is the problem not the existance of any of these effects.

Then I should add that there is more to it here too. There is room in the balance to play more without stability. Some of the player perspectives on how mandatory stability actually is, is steeped quite alot in what is easy/comfortable/routine and less in what is passable or viable. That doesn't really change the root point though: That stability is far too valuable at the moment. It is not "too good" it is "too important".

Just to give you a reference: Do you consider immob Rangers fun in small scale right now? It's some of the stinkiest most poorly balanced stuff out there and most players who considers it okay does not do it from an actual balance perspective. They are not bothered by it because they are playing something that's exceptional to its balance (issues). They are generally not subjected to it in the first place, or run a very big risk of being so. The fact that the devs have been forced to add exceptional mechanics like "breaks all movement-impairing conditions" on fundamental mechanics rather than the usual hit-or-miss cleanse attempt every X seconds on a utility skill is all evidence you need of what an absolute shitshow it is. Why bring that up here? Because the exceptional stuff is nigh mandatory (->Stab).

3) Most of the CC that is problematic is ranged CC

This is a large-scale thing more than anything else but: If the developer takes a look at changing CC back to a point where stability is not completely necessary at all cost then they could easily take more CC from ranged weapons than melee weapons and use that as a balance point. In fact, if more CC got taken from range there could perhaps be some warrant to look at some projectile reflects as a mean to compensate.

In many ways, if you look across all weapons in the game, the kiting ability is often superior to the sticking ability. That's not to say that they shouldn't be mindful of making melee "tackle" too powerful, but overall, I'd say that kiting has almost always been easier than sticking players in melee. For example, if you look at those old Warrior builds that simply overwhelmed players breaks with stuns and stun-damage, that was mostly a problem in small-scale melee vs. melee balance. It's not like those Warrior builds ran circles around ranged kiters. So while nerfing them wasn't necessarily a bad thing, the reason was never that they were too punishing against ranged kiters.

Balance in general

It's not impossible to restore a balance where distance-crushing specialists are faster than kiting specialists who in turn are faster than more tanking/control oriented builds whether they are ranged or melee. That is exactly how things are in theory today: There are just few, exclusive, outliers. Some things meant to be fast are not fast and some things meant to not be fast are too fast. Some things have been left too exclusive with balance projects that gets abandoned as WvW as a whole gets abandoned. They can balance that. If they don't keep abandoning us, they can. The one big problem with the feb 2020 balance patch is that it is still incomplete in apr 2022. That's two years and two months of not finishing their project! That goes for everything, some of the most egregious boon builds are the result of some classes getting boon nerfs in feb 2020 and others not. Some presses a button and gets 2s. Others presses a button and gets 20s. That's just Anet abandoning their WvW projects.

So, all in all, there is plenty of room to balance melee having some (balanced) ability to stick to things and still do quite alot of changes to CC.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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How many of you are actually in a guild that can comp around melee? 

How do you get into melee range for your squad to do melee damage?

How long can your support keep pushing into melee if the other group can kite and keep you at 900+ range? 

Nerfing or changing CC won't make melee any more viable then it is now because range is just easier and safer. Deleting retal made them viable, groups favoring range and now rise reapers will force other groups into stacking more support or playing range themselves. 

You don't need CC to drop 10 dh traps, 10 wells and pop rise for so many extra targets that your squad barely takes damage. 

And you sure af don't need CC to have 10 Phase Smashes hit the same spot from 1500 out. 

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Honestly, the problem is so much of it has effective basically zero animations and boons are so busted that corrupts/strips need to be absolutely spammed or else you just outright lose, CC or not.  So we become hyper-dependent on stability and sustain spamming and CC because interrupting the boon/heal flow is literally more important than preventing damage/CC skill casts themselves.

Especially problematic is the ranged CC, because you can't actually see the players casting these skills from the absolutely asinine levels of VFX in the game introduced since HoT.  So now we're pre-casting permanent boons before even getting close as to not get yanked, then corrupting from range to prevent the stab to allow pulls and CC, then upping stability even more to keep the boons flowing to keep the absolute stat stick of might/prot/resistance/fury, maintained, then spamming cleanses to prevent weakness and slow and chill and vuln from corrupts, etc. etc.

It's literally all symptoms of permanent AoE boon uptime being absolutely and fundamentally broken, and the obfuscation of being able to actually tell what's happening in combat because GW2's PvP combat was not designed to handle the anime-ization of every single skin and effect in the game.

 

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17 hours ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

CC is weaker than any other MMO I've played.

i wonder then if ur charcter in those games actualy gets trown out of the screen and land in ur room irl? instead of just going pingpong/oldschool pinball from corner to corner of ur screen:):):)

Edited by Joel.8705
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Kinda sucks that combat has revolved around one boon all this time, there's no room to adjust, no room to grow, without including that boon and the classes that hand it out, because everyone is too scared to fight without it.

They can't tone down cc's because it's required for that boon, you have strips and corruptions but they're also on rng to remove any of 11 other cover boons, while cc is the only direct hit to it.

At this point maybe they should take out stability? or take it off the boon spam list and treat it like superspeed? but adjust it so it's not spammed and used at the right times? maybe then they can do individual adjustments to combat with it instead of having to adjust around that boon always? or give everyone a defiance bar instead? if they're not willing to do diminishing returns on cc's? or give better personal access to stability to every class?

Seems a pretty stupid setup to have one boon to prevent all cc's, but then only hand out group versions to a couple classes, and highly restrict it on others. I'd rather defenses be kept to personal use, you know like the dodge, heals, stun breakers, so it relies more on the player themselves to get out of situation and not rely on group stability spamming to do so. But oh well, I'm sure any of this would upset the boon ballers ktraining, so anet is content to leave everything as is.

Edited by Xenesis.6389
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1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

because everyone is too scared to fight without it.

It doesn't have anything to do with people being more or less courageous.

You need to think of it like this:

Here's your typical up-until-recently meta party: Firebrand, Scrapper, Revenant, Scourge and Dragon Hunter (et. al.)

Now let's look only at the 1200r Gt-AoE hard CC available: FB staff 5, DH staff 5, Rev ham 5, Sco staff 5, Scr ham 5.

Let's assume Weavers take a spot over DH with recent changes and you have Lightning 5 plus Earth 4. In a group of 50 that is 60 sources of warding at 1200r alone. Let's assume they have a target cap of 5, that's 300 applications of control. Two groups fighting each other would effectively mean a stand still without stability. You might dodge or break one or two but there are ten more in every direction you look. That's just the hard CC available at 1200r as things stand. Assuming it was this effective to CC people may stack more of it. Get closer to each other and there will be more of it. It would just be the most terrible pirateship fest you could possibly imagine or the loosest clouds ever where no one dares closing in from 1200r. If you want to use the expression "too scared", that is where it will apply.

Again, that's just using whatever norms exist today, a highly conservative estimate. If CC was relatively better than counter-CC you would stack far more of it. The DH would grab an LB. The Rev would go Demon or be replaced by more stacks of Eles. Those 60 sources of warding would climb closer to 100 (and 500 applications of control). Pulls, Gravs, Spectrals, Slicks, Rings, there's plenty more to just litter the field with, that no one wants to run across.

As far as everything else you suggest: Yeah, maybe. I mean, the old mechanics of stability was that it essentially functioned as superspeed. You had one stack. If it got ripped you had no stack. Even when people ran double core Guard the uptime of SYG+F3 usually wasn't 100%. It would get cycled for between 50 and 100 before rips were taken into account. Even on core both Necros and Mesmers had rips. Though in all honesty, even today, good groups generally do not attempt to rotate 100% stab cover because other good groups will just rip through the stacks. Good groups regement calls today and aims to have stab at specific times just as they did back then. The people who cry about it today are the same that cried about it back then, those that are not good enough to strip or not organised enough to bring strips. Only bad groups try to rotate stab for coverage and only even worse players do things like throwing fears ontop of larger groups without stripping, only to see the fear convert to additional stab.

Edited by subversiontwo.7501
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I don't mind the mechanic, but it does seem to be heavily over used in EoD. Although not being a games designer I'm not sure how you would shake things up to make it better. The sheer amount of combat mechanics in gw2 is better than other mmo I have played (although ffxi was quite amazing for the time).

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On 4/3/2022 at 4:51 AM, subversiontwo.7501 said:

Just to add to this: If you really want to shake up the large-scale meta, CC is the best thing to address.

When other people complain about the meta they want to nerf stability, cleanses and projectile blocks, because they are solo players plonking away with their longbows at range. They don't want to change the meta they're just jealous or unhappy about their inadequacies as players.

The things that are actually excluded from the meta are all melee damage stuff. Soulbeasts were made to be melee. Warrior builds are all essentially melee. Guards that do other things than just support are melee (things like LB Zerker or Staff DH are happy accidents, they were not built to do what they do). Catalysts and Untamed are melee. Reapers are melee. The list goes on. You do not open up the meta for any of those by making it harder to move and get into melee. The CC is the reason they are out of meta. The best way to "nerf" stability is to not make it mandatory. It can be nice to have but not mandatory, and it's fine.

Pretty sure its all the floor vomit coupled with certain 300s CD traits that is limiting my zerg diving as of late. CCs haven't been stopping me from zerg melee, it's the umpteen ticks of floor vomit and condition overload that can't be out cleansed when in melee.

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5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

coupled with certain 300s CD traits that is limiting my zerg diving as of late.

lmao, What 300s CD trait is keeping your entire zerg from going into melee? If a 12k HP dh can do it, a warrior can. 

Just dodge the condition application 5head

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1 hour ago, Zikory.6871 said:

lmao, What 300s CD trait is keeping your entire zerg from going into melee? If a 12k HP dh can do it, a warrior can. 


Just dodge the condition application 5head

DH got more blocks to carry around with it while being able to dps with said blocks up. Warrior doesn't have that. They do have a short duration EP and a 300s CD DP though. No where near the uptime as the DH blocks though.

I mentioned floor vomit for a reason mate. Can't dodge all of that and attack, what you think we're some medium armor class that can get 7 evades on the bar that still allow for attacking at the same time?

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