Edits to Return of Scarlet's War

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

56 minutes ago, eduardo.1436 said:

I'll be honest, I hope so too you are being overly pessimistic XD. My hope is they introduce Kiel as an investigator sadly not referencing Southsun shenanigans, then in "Escape of LA" her and Evon get extra dialogue referencing the election.

Hobo-Tron will most likely get phased in before entering the Pavillion instance and mentions his previous occupation.

Given what we know they're cutting and that they'll cut more, this is probably our best outcome, unfortunately.

56 minutes ago, eduardo.1436 said:

With that both can be easily added to the final episode. Besides the main gimmick is defeating Scarlet's forces and then destroy 3 massive Watchknights at the same time. Braham and Rox (and frostbite), Marjory and Kasmeer, and Ellen and Heal-o-Tron battle one Watchknight each.

Since BfLA is getting a strike with CM, it'll probably be the 3 Assault Knights + Prime Hologram. I can't see them splitting 10 players into 3 groups (but I suppose it's possible), so I imagine they'll rework that pre-fight and separate it from the rest of the map.

How (and if, but better be how) they bring back the Tower of Nightmares, Lion's Arch (Under Attack), and Lion's Arch (Enemy Territory) zones is definitely a matter of interest.

[Narcemus.1348]

5 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Given what we know they're cutting and that they'll cut more, this is probably our best outcome, unfortunately.

Since BfLA is getting a strike with CM, it'll probably be the 3 Assault Knights + Prime Hologram. I can't see them splitting 10 players into 3 groups (but I suppose it's possible), so I imagine they'll rework that pre-fight and separate it from the rest of the map.

How (and if, but better be how) they bring back the Tower of Nightmares, Lion's Arch (Under Attack), and Lion's Arch (Enemy Territory) zones is definitely a matter of interest.

I will raise my voice to say that I hope you are being overly pessimistic as well, but not with the intention of debating you on the subject. Instead, to make sure that it is heard on the forums where I know at least one developer is reading some posts, that it would feel awkward. Not only does it give new players no context for why a whole map of the world exists, but it cuts out too many introductions that show why we feel the way we do about many characters.

[Kalavier.1097]

I feel the thing that needs to be clarified entirely is this.

Are the Southsun events just not being included in the re-release of Season 1, but are still within the lore as happening, or are they being retconned to not happen?

 

I feel like it's learning toward the former, because of the map (obviously) as well as other references and things. But we'll have to see. Certain things have to happen anyway without drastically redoing so much content later, like Kiel becoming Captain, or all the events in the fractals with Kiel.

 

From what I read about the added lore pages of Episode 1 (haven't had a chance to play it yet), it looks promising? With the mention of Tribune Efram, naming of the two molten alliance heroes (berserker and firestorm). But, I'll admit I've not yet personally seen what got removed or not.

[SunRoamer.5103]

10 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It did not make it into the patch, even worse, they completely retconned Ottilia's character, and in a manner that feels very weird to do - goes from being Braham's crush that ends up too naive for her own good (dumps Braham in favor of a merchant after making him hunt rabbits because he's "not worldly enough" for her), into... an ex-crush-instant-reject on better than good terms who helped Braham work through his mother issues that he still talks about in both this release and Season 2...

Okay, I was surprised when I read Braham's line about Ottilia, thinking that this information seemed to differ from what I had heard about her from other people. Personally, I don't really mind this change - the whole storyline with Ottilia seems convoluted and sort of irrelevant within the scope of a single, linear story episode, and in the end it never really went anywhere, anyways. Likewise, it's a shame about the missing Prelude/The Gathering Storm dialogue, but especially if it was originally only available in text form, this doesn't surprise me too much. Afaik ANet rarely does NPCs with updating dialogue and I think very few players ever return to check if new dialogue is available with old NPCs.

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And even for the story chapters that do come back, as Flame and Frost has shown, they're not beyond cutting out portions of the releases even if they're equal to portions being kept - all the Wayfarer events and NPCs didn't return, nor did the LA refugee camp (despite being in a part of the map untouched by the reconstruction - the NPCs tied to the Lost and Found achievement were moved to BC/Hoelbrak it seems), and it seems (haven't been able to confirm) the celebration NPCs in Black Citadel were also cut.

And thanks for all the info! I updated the original post of this thread with a rough list of the edits that have been spotted so far.

[Bobby Stein.3612]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Are the Southsun events just not being included in the re-release of Season 1, but are still within the lore as happening, or are they being retconned to not happen?

Southsun happened. It's just not included as part of the S1 revitalization since it was tangential to the main story and didn't really fit with how we decided to consolidate the main beats. Hoping we can bring it back at some point, but I can't promise that.

[eduardo.1436]

1 minute ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Southsun happened. It's just not included as part of the S1 revitalization since it was tangential to the main story and didn't really fit with how we decided to consolidate the main beats. Hoping we can bring it back at some point, but I can't promise that.

Ummmm quoting with hopes you reply but I'm assuming Ellen Kiel, Canach, Evon and Job/Hobo/Hoho/Heal/Hero-O-Tron will still be part of the story? After all Ellen and Heal-o-Tron help in the battle of the breachmaker. Or are they getting cut?

[Bobby Stein.3612]

1 hour ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

Okay, I was surprised when I read Braham's line about Ottilia, thinking that this information seemed to differ from what I had heard about her from other people. Personally, I don't really mind this change - the whole storyline with Ottilia seems convoluted and sort of irrelevant within the scope of a single, linear story episode, and in the end it never really went anywhere, anyways.

The team can talk more about some of these choices in more depth if they choose, but from my PoV the whole Ottilia connection for Braham was, like you said, irrelevant to his arc and had no real substance. It was slightly reframed to downplay the "puppy love" angle and tie in more as a support system for his strained relationship with his mother.

 

In short, minor text edits, new lore books, cuts to old VO that didn't work, or additional new VO will continue to be sprinkled throughout the season to fix some of the things that, in our opinion, either muddled the story or weren't landing as intended. This is very much along the lines of the Personal Story restoration stuff we did some years back. The overall story is very much the same, but some of the details have been modified to better reflect artistic intent.

[Bobby Stein.3612]

3 minutes ago, eduardo.1436 said:

Ummmm quoting with hopes you reply but I'm assuming Ellen Kiel, Canach, Evon and Job/Hobo/Hoho/Heal/Hero-O-Tron will still be part of the story? After all Ellen and Heal-o-Tron help in the battle of the breachmaker. Or are they getting cut?

You'll have a better sense of that with E2's release on May 24th. I think it's safe to say that if a character had a prominent role in the original content, they'll likely be in the revitalization. But you'll have to wait and see.

[Bobby Stein.3612]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:11 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yo Bobby, where's our Return to Flame and Frost trailer drop? 😿

I wanted so bad to tell people but I gotta let Marketing do their job. 😆

 

I'm biased, of course, but I think the new trailer was pretty great.

[eduardo.1436]

4 minutes ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

You'll have a better sense of that with E2's release on May 24th. I think it's safe to say that if a character had a prominent role in the original content, they'll likely be in the revitalization. But you'll have to wait and see.

All right Bobby, imma be kissing your shoes saying thank you XD. The answer satisfied me AND me personally had no idea of the ep2 release! Thank you........now I'll patiently wait for a mini Job/Hobo-Tron for...more than 7 years now XD

[Zola.6197]

The Ottilia cuts are unfortunate but an ultimately understandable aspect to put on the chopping block imo. Especially given the original dialogue was stretched over a few festivals it would’ve been awkward to force it into the episode as it exists. We’re in Crisis Mode, so stopping to chat with Braham’s love interest would’ve felt discordant with that.

 

Cutting out all Southsun content is a pretty big bummer. Really do hope it can be worked in retroactively later because they do feel like important events that set up important characters, even if it’s not directly related to Scarlet. Edit: Plus I thought Canach could make an interesting strike boss. 😛

 

I’ll say though I’d rather have Southsun happen offscreen and lose out on minor, albeit interesting, dialogue like the exchanges with Ottilia, than not have a playable abridged version of S1 at all. Veterans may not be completely satisfied, but I think it’ll be healthy for the game overall and keep newer players more invested post-PS.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Zola.6197

[Bobby Stein.3612]

6 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

The Ottilia cuts are unfortunate but an ultimately understandable aspect to put on the chopping block imo. Especially given the original dialogue was stretched over a few festivals it would’ve been awkward to force it into the episode as it exists. We’re in Crisis Mode, so stopping to chat with Braham’s love interest would’ve felt discordant with that.

 

Cutting out all Southsun content is a pretty big bummer. Really do hope it can be worked in retroactively later because they do feel like important events that set up important characters, even if it’s not directly related to Scarlet. Edit: Plus I thought Canach could make an interesting strike boss. 😛

 

I’ll say though I’d rather have Southsun happen offscreen and lose out on minor, albeit interesting, dialogue like the exchanges with Ottilia, than not have a playable abridged version of S1 at all. Veterans may not be completely satisfied, but I think it’ll be healthy for the game overall and keep newer players more invested post-PS.

I'm not a product strategy guy, but I'm always a fan of fixing/improving/restoring content that had potential but didn't quite meet the original vision. It took many years to get to a place where we could bring back S1, but we ultimately got there. Hoping we can restore or enhance other parts of the game that could use a fresh coat of paint. Stick around. You never know where we'll go next! 😛

[Zola.6197]

25 minutes ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

I'm not a product strategy guy, but I'm always a fan of fixing/improving/restoring content that had potential but didn't quite meet the original vision. It took many years to get to a place where we could bring back S1, but we ultimately got there. Hoping we can restore or enhance other parts of the game that could use a fresh coat of paint. Stick around. You never know where we'll go next! 😛

Definitely an exciting prospect! Looking forward to seeing where you and the team take things. 😊

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

7 hours ago, Narcemus.1348 said:

I will raise my voice to say that I hope you are being overly pessimistic as well, but not with the intention of debating you on the subject.

Hey, I'm here hoping I'm being overly pessimistic.

3 hours ago, SunRoamer.5103 said:

Likewise, it's a shame about the missing Prelude/The Gathering Storm dialogue, but especially if it was originally only available in text form, this doesn't surprise me too much. Afaik ANet rarely does NPCs with updating dialogue and I think very few players ever return to check if new dialogue is available with old NPCs.

In regards to this, the NPCs with the dialogue missing are Bellus Jawshot (originally Adamant Watch) and Ahava Greywolf (originally Wolfborn Watch). These two still get updated dialogue after completing, but are missing the original four lines from Prelude and The Gathering Storms as refugees were slowly added over the weeks.

I suppose it'd be hard to include every line, but if they didn't start at The Razing (basically splitting Alliance Investigation in two, cutting the dead drop collection for its own story step, and shifting the rest to the beginning) they could have included 1 or 2 more of the old dialogue.

At least we have (almost) all of the original dialogue on the wiki for folks to read.

1 hour ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Southsun happened. It's just not included as part of the S1 revitalization since it was tangential to the main story and didn't really fit with how we decided to consolidate the main beats. Hoping we can bring it back at some point, but I can't promise that.

Addendum question: Was the Commander part of those events, or was it "other adventurers"?

Hoping you can bring it back too!

1 hour ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

The team can talk more about some of these choices in more depth if they choose, but from my PoV the whole Ottilia connection for Braham was, like you said, irrelevant to his arc and had no real substance. It was slightly reframed to downplay the "puppy love" angle and tie in more as a support system for his strained relationship with his mother.

Personally even with this explanation it feels a weird choice. I still see that "puppy love" angle in Braham as he's still pinning for Ottilia despite the rejection, and the support system feels non-existent because Braham still complained about Eir two instances earlier (in Rytlock's office) and there's still all that Season 2 stress.

 

Does this mean that these dialogues are no longer canon at all?

1 hour ago, Zola.6197 said:

The Ottilia cuts are unfortunate but an ultimately understandable aspect to put on the chopping block imo. Especially given the original dialogue was stretched over a few festivals it would’ve been awkward to force it into the episode as it exists. We’re in Crisis Mode, so stopping to chat with Braham’s love interest would’ve felt discordant with that.

Personally I was expecting some "Braham Talks" in the same style as the Bangar Talks or the Owl Shaman stuff after Jormag Rising.

That after completing A Quiet Celebration, there'd be this small achievement to go into Cragstead and catch up with Braham, and every time we re-enter (softlocked to daily resets), the next of three Braham/Ottilia dialogues would play. First time locking weekly would mean perfect spacing before Episode 2 drops, even.

Quote

I’ll say though I’d rather have Southsun happen offscreen and lose out on minor, albeit interesting, dialogue like the exchanges with Ottilia, than not have a playable abridged version of S1 at all. Veterans may not be completely satisfied, but I think it’ll be healthy for the game overall and keep newer players more invested post-PS.

Oh most definitely. This is by far better than nothing at all.

It's just some of the choices seem weird to me, while others disappointing.

  

1 hour ago, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Hoping we can restore or enhance other parts of the game that could use a fresh coat of paint. Stick around. You never know where we'll go next! 😛

Replayable Personal Story and Voiced Season 2 Commander and proper non-rushed IBS: Champions when? 😉

Edited April 21, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Zola.6197]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Personally I was expecting some "Braham Talks" in the same style as the Bangar Talks or the Owl Shaman stuff after Jormag Rising.

That after completing A Quiet Celebration, there'd be this small achievement to go into Cragstead and catch up with Braham, and every time we re-enter (softlocked to daily resets), the next of three Braham/Ottilia dialogues would play. First time locking weekly would mean perfect spacing before Episode 2 drops, even.

This is a nice idea, would definitely love to see that turned into an achievement. Good way to fit in some of the more superfluous-yet-character building aspects like Ottilia.

Honestly would be interesting if they meet again in a future story after all this time. Braham has been through a lot, and I wonder how she’s fared too.

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Replayable Personal Story and Voiced Season 2 Commander and proper non-rushed IBS: Champions when? 😉

Seconded, especially so on shoring up things in Icebrood Saga.

My additions to the wildest fantasy list: reworked/new Zhaitan fight in the personal story (double as a strike?), and Marjory as a selectable companion for the final battle in Mordremoth’s mindscape! Let her avenge Belinda, dang-nabbit!

Oh, and Snaff and Eir in Dragonfall??? Always been a bit sore they show up for a cameo earlier in S4 but then not for the final battle against Kralk. 😔

Edited April 21, 2022 by Zola.6197

[Abraxxus.8971]

I think the ending of LW1 needs to be changed slightly to make it somewhat ambiguous to say "Maybe somehow, Scarlet did survive." 

But I know that would be a whole lotta work if it happened. 

[Narcemus.1348]

11 minutes ago, Abraxxus.8971 said:

I think the ending of LW1 needs to be changed slightly to make it somewhat ambiguous to say "Maybe somehow, Scarlet did survive." 

But I know that would be a whole lotta work if it happened. 

Not to mention a huge retcon. Eve End of Dragons, thru the holorecordings shows that Mai Trin didn't handle Scarlet's death well.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

24 minutes ago, Abraxxus.8971 said:

I think the ending of LW1 needs to be changed slightly to make it somewhat ambiguous to say "Maybe somehow, Scarlet did survive." 

But I know that would be a whole lotta work if it happened. 

If they alter the ending, the only thing I want changed is bringing back Scarlet's voiced line of name dropping Mordremoth.

[Ariane Barnes.6483]

I would hope Festival of the Four Winds would be included.  Maybe not the whole festival since it is not any different than the August event, but at the very least a cut scene, or a chapter that takes place where we get to see the whole complete ship used by the Zephyrites.  It's destruction is literally the first major event in Season 2 (after the Mordrem surprise at the Henge of Denravi) so you can't skip that without ruining the transition from S1 to S2.

BTW, one of the unmentioned changes between original S1 and this chapter was the march of refugees between Hoelbrak and Cragstead.  There was a part where you had to investigate vents, help refugees and rebuild signposts that resulted in the "Traveler" title.  It was replaced in the replay with the optional search for encoded messages in Wayfarer Foothills.  I do not know if this results in the title since I already got it.

Edited April 22, 2022 by Ariane Barnes.6483

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

11 hours ago, Ariane Barnes.6483 said:

BTW, one of the unmentioned changes between original S1 and this chapter was the march of refugees between Hoelbrak and Cragstead.  There was a part where you had to investigate vents, help refugees and rebuild signposts that resulted in the "Traveler" title.  It was replaced in the replay with the optional search for encoded messages in Wayfarer Foothills.  I do not know if this results in the title since I already got it.

All of the Wayfarer Foothills content was apparently removed/not returned for this re-run, instead the story focuses on Diessa's parallel content. Interestingly, you can still see the campfires and tents that were added then removed for Flame and Frost, but none of the NPCs , objects, or events are present. The dead drops didn't replace anything - that was always a separate thing - but both the dead drops and the signs, etc. got merged into the story step Alliance Investigations.

You can get the achievement with the Diessa content, just like originally (everyone always focused on Wayfarer back then, but it was in both zones). Though the vents event didn't seem to return (unless it's easily bugged like the others).

[Abraxxus.8971]

I wonder since we're hopefully going to be returning to classic Lion's Arch, if the "By Ogdens hammer what savings!" guy will return in an instance. 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

On 4/24/2022 at 1:11 AM, Abraxxus.8971 said:

I wonder since we're hopefully going to be returning to classic Lion's Arch, if the "By Ogdens hammer what savings!" guy will return in an instance. 

a gw2 partner joked abut ti but i am serious about it: make old lion arch besides a legendary aqua breather (seriously bobby can you do something about that?) as reward to go like the the mist lock sanctuary.
 

At this point in time "not spreading the player base" appears to be a a very invalid excuse not to do it. players are already in different lobbies, different maps and instances through 3 expansions and the core game and 3 game modes too. to have ALL of old LA as an option to visit without all its glory and NPCs and vendors back would be great.
And could be used to let new players, who play their first character, still experience the game as it was, while also allowing them to interact with other "end game" players. Let them play through core and season 1 while befre seeing the new LA and getting the "lobby pass" for old LA.

 

[ShroomOneUp.6913]

On 4/21/2022 at 6:27 PM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

I'm not a product strategy guy....

can you atleast hint at us if the mysterious season 1 reward is maybe a legendary aqua breather?

seriously even if it wasn't i think gw2 is due for one, since it would not "invalidate" much in grand scheme of things. as far as i can tell with the wiki the ONLY exotic aqua breathers are very low drop chance items from personalized wintersday gifts and the ascended ones that aren't craftable are tied to winterberries ( *the collective gw2 community groans*) and swim speed infusions.

[Mediahead.3542]

On 4/21/2022 at 11:52 AM, Bobby Stein.3612 said:

Southsun happened. It's just not included as part of the S1 revitalization since it was tangential to the main story and didn't really fit with how we decided to consolidate the main beats. Hoping we can bring it back at some point, but I can't promise that.

 

That's unfortunate, I was hoping I'd be able to fight the ancient karka, since I didn't start playing until a year after the core game launched 

[Bobby Stein.3612]

5 hours ago, Mediahead.3542 said:

 

That's unfortunate, I was hoping I'd be able to fight the ancient karka, since I didn't start playing until a year after the core game launched 

I hear ya. It's definitely a thing that we'd consider for the future. It just didn't fit into the S1 revitalization scope while also being tangential to the main story, so we shelved it for now.