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What do we want to see in Longbow Ele?


Cozy Winter.2046

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It takes anet several years to create an expansion so starting the conversation right now can't hurt. I'm curious as to what other Elementalists would like to see in in a longbow specialization, no wrong answers.

 

My main inspiration for longbow ele is the character Archer from the anime Fate Stay Night, with a few changes. From here on out I'll refer to longbow ele as Catacylsm

 

1. Cataclysm is the opposite of longbow ranger/soulbeast, in that its main source of damage is conditions as opposed to strikes. The range of Catacylsmic longbows is 1500 to make up for their inability to swap to a defensive weapon.

 

2. Cataclysm's use mantras to quickly apply to debuffs to an area.

 

Fire

1. Pierces, if it hits more than one target, all are burned.

2. Projectile that starts off big and shrinks with distance, burning nearby foes as it travels.

3 Target area pulses burn.

4. Target area briefly pulses blinds.

5. Fire an arrow that absorbs all burning on nearby targets to deal strike damage proportional to the burning absorbed.

 

Water

1. Pierces, if it hits more than one target, all are chilled.

2. Projectile that stuns with the duration increased based off distance traveled.

3. Create an icy path in a straight line.

4. Crippling shot that dazes chilled targets.

5. Fire an arrow that absorbs all chill in an area to stun based off the amount of chill absorbed.

 

Air

1. Pierces, if it hits more than one target gain fury based on the number of targets hit.

2. Projectile that launches a close target, knocks down far targets.

3. Short range shot gun, similar to the underwater spear ability.

4. Gain vigor, fury and fire a shot that grants the same to an area.

5. Push forth a wind wall that reflects projectiles. Absorbs the swiftness of nearby enemies to grow in size.

 

Earth

1. Machine gun shrapnel. Think of the Earth Scepter 1 ability, just a lot faster and with a 1500 range.

2. Projectile that starts off small and grows with distance. Inflicts bleeding,  inflicts more bleeding the larger the projectile is.

3. Weaken and cripple an area.

4. Cripple area, root + bleed 2 seconds later.

5. Create a long line that quickly strikes and bleeds foes that touch it.

 

Elites: Each element has its own elite with their own individual CDs. Using an elite for one element triggers a 10 second CD for the others.

Fire: Summon a giant meteor that impacts the ground after 10 secs, striking and burning in a large area.

Water: Pulse chill and regen in a large area

Air: Summon a storm that strikes random areas with lightning. Enemies inside the storm lose fury and cannot gain fury while inside it.

Earth: Summon a large stalagmite to apply a large stack of bleeding and deal a moderate amount of strike damage to a single foe.

 

Heal

Chant a mantra that heals you for 30% of the damage you deal in target area.

 

I mainly sPvP so I'm sure some of these abilities step on the toes of PvE aspects of the game. This is all just a brainstorm, nothing concrete, so constructive feedback and other ideas are welcome.

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I want a arcane archer effectively. 

Then the attunements to work via a storing system. Which we use to cast elemental spells. 

I dunno how possible this will be though due to how deep rooted attunements in their current format are. 

So attunements sit on a secondary bar above our current. Like where they are just made alittle bigger, you activate one of the attunements and it shows 5 spells based on the attunement youve used. 

You use arcane stored power to then cast those abilities. 

So we get the mixed theme of casting spells and arcane as the default abilities and are able to weave the 2 into one effectively. 

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I want to see a spec that lose the core elementalist weapon skills for a single set of skills per weapon and the ability to switch weapon in combat. An Arcanist.

Switching attunment would grant "x elemental venom charges" to the elementalist:

- Fire: your next x hits burn your foes.

- Air: your next x hits have increased ferocity bonus.

- Earth: your next x hits bleed your target.

- Water: your next x hits apply vulnerability.

I believe this would be enough to promote switching attunment (because in the end that's what the devs want elementalists to do).

Amazingly this would only mean 25 new weapon skills (5 staff + 5 dagger + 3 scepter + 2 focus + 5 trident + 5 longbow) instead of 20 the bow would get for 4 attunments (not much more skills to design).

Utilities would probably be a set of "arcane 2.0" skills without elemental flavor (just like berserker's rage skills are "physical 2.0" skills or catalyst's augments are "stance 2.0" skills).

You'd have:

- A traitline that focus on the "arcane" aspect of the weapon skills with an universal 20% CD reduction on the weapon skills.

- A traitline that focus on the "elemental venoms" gained through switching attunment (maybe even making them share-able).

- A traitline that focus on gaining bonus when swaping weapon (traits much like those warrior and ranger have with discipline and skirmishing)

 

At the very least it would be original to have such a spec for elementalist, not just another "I use F skills to create aoe and spam aura" spec.

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The thing people need to understand is that an elite spec goes beyond the weapon. You can't have "Arcane Archer" elite spec that doesn't work well in some way with core weapons.

 

The other thing is that the way ele works, elite specs are less about what you do (condi/power dmg, support, etc) and more how you do it. Tempest stay longer in attunements to use overloads and does most things in large AoE (shouts, overloads, warhorn), weaver moves attunements quickly to combine them and maintain unique buffs, Catalyst is about continuously using energy and combos to get boons and unique buffs...

  

2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

I want to see a spec that lose the core elementalist weapon skills for a single set of skills per weapon and the ability to switch weapon in combat.

 

THIS! 

I think having an elite spec that uses attunements in a different way, to provide unique effects to its weapon skills, instead of new weapon skills, is a good way to change things for a new elite spec. It would also open the spec for weapon swap (since you have less skills) AND since it get new skills for all core weapons, balancing it would not effect other specs balancing.

Also, if ele gets a 2hander (5 skills) and new skills for all core weapons (15 skills) it would be the same number of new skills than a new 2 hander with 4 attunement skill sets.

 

What I would like to see is this: 

You get your longbow and weapon swap. And attunements become fighting styles, providing the skills with unique effects.

Longbow is your "arcane archer" style, with arrows imbued with elemental magic. Earth arrows pierce, fire explode, air double hit (static discharge), water provides a heal, etc...
Staff is your PbAoE weapon with some blocks and mobility.
Daggers are mobile and fast attacks with evasion.
Scepter becomes like a mace, with slow powerful attacks, some block and counter mechanic.
Focus becomes like a shield.

Utility skills are focused on martial arts training, physical skills, they provide mobility and control to help the ele control the fight range (staying away or chasing)...

The unique thing in both the elite and the grandmaster trait choice, is that you can maintain attunements simultaneously (all for a little bit with the elite skill, or 2 with the grandmaster trait) which provides you not only the benefits of both attunements to your weapon attacks (combining the fighting styles) but also the traitlines. So a disciple that traited fire/air and can keep fire and air attunements simultaneously would benefit from the power and ferocity bonus of those traitlines and the effects on its weapon attacks (so exploding arrows with a static discharge for the longbow auto). Although at moving to another attunment, both of those would be on CD...

Edited by lLobo.7960
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4 hours ago, lLobo.7960 said:

The thing people need to understand is that an elite spec goes beyond the weapon. You can't have "Arcane Archer" elite spec that doesn't work well in some way with core weapons.

 

The other thing is that the way ele works, elite specs are less about what you do (condi/power dmg, support, etc) and more how you do it. Tempest stay longer in attunements to use overloads and does most things in large AoE (shouts, overloads, warhorn), weaver moves attunements quickly to combine them and maintain unique buffs, Catalyst is about continuously using energy and combos to get boons and unique buffs...

  

 

THIS! 

I think having an elite spec that uses attunements in a different way, to provide unique effects to its weapon skills, instead of new weapon skills, is a good way to change things for a new elite spec. It would also open the spec for weapon swap (since you have less skills) AND since it get new skills for all core weapons, balancing it would not effect other specs balancing.

Also, if ele gets a 2hander (5 skills) and new skills for all core weapons (15 skills) it would be the same number of new skills than a new 2 hander with 4 attunement skill sets.

 

What I would like to see is this: 

You get your longbow and weapon swap. And attunements become fighting styles, providing the skills with unique effects.

Longbow is your "arcane archer" style, with arrows imbued with elemental magic. Earth arrows pierce, fire explode, air double hit (static discharge), water provides a heal, etc...
Staff is your PbAoE weapon with some blocks and mobility.
Daggers are mobile and fast attacks with evasion.
Scepter becomes like a mace, with slow powerful attacks, some block and counter mechanic.
Focus becomes like a shield.

Utility skills are focused on martial arts training, physical skills, they provide mobility and control to help the ele control the fight range (staying away or chasing)...

The unique thing in both the elite and the grandmaster trait choice, is that you can maintain attunements simultaneously (all for a little bit with the elite skill, or 2 with the grandmaster trait) which provides you not only the benefits of both attunements to your weapon attacks (combining the fighting styles) but also the traitlines. So a disciple that traited fire/air and can keep fire and air attunements simultaneously would benefit from the power and ferocity bonus of those traitlines and the effects on its weapon attacks (so exploding arrows with a static discharge for the longbow auto). Although at moving to another attunment, both of those would be on CD...

As nice as that would be can you imagine how many skills they would need to make?  

Maybe slightly more feasible if they make them similar to how glyphs just change effects based on attunements. 

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9 hours ago, Sunshine.5014 said:

I want to see good auto attacks. Can Ele finally get an auto attack that does 30k dps like other classes? Elite spec is supposed to provide alternative play styles. One play style Ele doesn't have is the non-piano style.

We have one that is close. Grimjack created one. Air only Weaver. It achieves 26k DPS which is more then many auto attack builds. 

 

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the following link is an old brainstorm, before changes to torment, and was designed more as a 1500 range damage spec, relying more on others to create combo fields, like longbow ranger, but also with a lot of throwbacks to GW1 skills, including some skills that will provide alternate damage if blocked, and using the longbow for arrow skills and staff-like spells,. I'm sure i could probably spend some time to update this, but i'm having more fun playing the game.

 

I also think that core elementalist should have an F5 skill that detonates all auras, to allow for more tradeoffs for e-specs, and to relegate auramancer as a core build. i also recommend that all elemental traitlines change the the master minor trait to ranged, ie, to hit the target at up to 1200 range, siphoning helpful effects  (like heals for water) back to the elementalist.

 

one reason for the f5 skill as a core tradeoff, is that overall, the core weapons are offered essentially as-is for use in the e-specs (with few exceptions with additional skills, like deadeye ambush skills, mirage ambush skills, weaver 3 skills, and untamed 1 skills.) i imagine a lot of people will be upset if they can't use all the core sklls on their elementalist espec.

 

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What Elementalist needs is good ranged damage. Longbow could provide that, if Arenanet tried to accomplish that.

This could work well with a specialization that is locked into one Element during combat, but can swap weapons in combat instead.

Of course, numbers would need to be adjusted via the trait line, to make up for having half the available abilities.

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Either a new long range shadowstep or a Lightning Flash rework. I would also love to see other forms of evasion, disengage and control, like a long range launch to air,  immob or cages to earth, stun and chill to water and a smoke field to fire attunement. Make it relevant to Fresh Air builds and have some nice synergies with Scepter. Would also love to see a Water Attunement even more agressive than Hammer's

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I was thinking of an arcane based elite spec with a shroud like arcane attunement instead of individual elements being able to swap between this and normal weapons(building mana when you use skills in shroud and gaining health or summoning lesser elementals upon exiting )

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I want to do ranged damage without having to use 5+ skills at the same time or aim slow moving projectiles that take 3 seconds to land.
Scepter is a long forgotten weapon with no real strengths and plenty of weaknesses.
Staff is useless unless you like kiting while doing 0 damage.

I certainly hope we dont need to wait 2+ more years before ele gets a decent ranged weapon.

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On 4/7/2022 at 10:58 PM, lLobo.7960 said:

The thing people need to understand is that an elite spec goes beyond the weapon. You can't have "Arcane Archer" elite spec that doesn't work well in some way with core weapons

Except you stated against mine and immediately advocated for another idea which said to do the exact same thing with attunements. 

Use a base magic instead of attunement swaps and push attunements as a resource system instead. 

Both the idea of a arcane archer and his idea mirror the concept of removing attunement swapping as it currently is. For a resource or self buff system with affects based on elements. 

But you are correct. Neither idea would work. 

For it to be ranged it needs to be squishier then it's melee counterparts, weaver and catalyst. If you then strip attunement swapping you remove it's evades / toughness from earth and it's healing abilities from water. 

As it would have to have lower mobility, sustain and less evades to balance out the ranged advantage it will gain. 

The likelyhood is the end result would be a 1 dimensional glass cannon which wouldn't function in PvP due to too easy to shut down and wouldn't work in PvE because it's still enforced to stand in melee range with even less survivability making the down state meme a reality. 

Because we are entirely balanced around active sustain and having 20 abilities... The concept of removing them is just a no go, you will never get success out of this idea.. you would need attunement swapping to some degree avaliable. 

As you can't make a 1200 ranged weapon have higher sustain or evade/dodges/blocks then melee. That'd be a balancing disaster and would likely risk just making eles melee options redundent. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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The new elite spec needs to have self applying (perma)

* stealth

* alacrity

*barrier

*fury

* with 1 click 25 might

* give elem 10 k extra life

* second life bar or a third life bar

* we need at least 5 * 1200 range teleports

 

On enemy we can perma apply

* torment stacks (*25)

*perma blind

* have at least 10 boon removes

* can perma slow them

* can perma stun them or at least 10 seconds immobilize them ( pulsing every second so cleansing is impossible)

 

We need range to 1500 and at least 5 gap closers with 900 range

 

Maybe some ironic or sarkasm..

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On 4/9/2022 at 11:18 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

Except you stated against mine and immediately advocated for another idea which said to do the exact same thing with attunements. 

Use a base magic instead of attunement swaps and push attunements as a resource system instead. 

Both the idea of a arcane archer and his idea mirror the concept of removing attunement swapping as it currently is. For a resource or self buff system with affects based on elements. [...]

I think you misunderstood me. I don't like the idea of an "Arcane Archer" spec, but I like the idea of a spec that can be played (among other styles) as an arcane archer. My suggestion of the disciple can work as an arcane archer, as a monk, as an elemental martial artist... depends on how you build it. The key thing is the synergies beyond the new weapon, but with core weapons and traits...

 

On 4/9/2022 at 11:18 AM, Daddy.8125 said:

[...]

But you are correct. Neither idea would work. 

For it to be ranged it needs to be squishier then it's melee counterparts, weaver and catalyst. If you then strip attunement swapping you remove it's evades / toughness from earth and it's healing abilities from water. 

As it would have to have lower mobility, sustain and less evades to balance out the ranged advantage it will gain. 

The likelyhood is the end result would be a 1 dimensional glass cannon which wouldn't function in PvP due to too easy to shut down and wouldn't work in PvE because it's still enforced to stand in melee range with even less survivability making the down state meme a reality. 

Because we are entirely balanced around active sustain and having 20 abilities... The concept of removing them is just a no go, you will never get success out of this idea.. you would need attunement swapping to some degree avaliable. 

As you can't make a 1200 ranged weapon have higher sustain or evade/dodges/blocks then melee. That'd be a balancing disaster and would likely risk just making eles melee options redundent. 

I disagree. 

You'd loose the unique attunement skills, but not the attunement swapping. Therefore, core traitlines still work (both on attunement and on swap). The loss of the core elemental weapon skills drastically reduce mobility, healing, and control, which is partially recovered by the new weapon skills and weapon swap.

The whole idea is to give the option of being a 1 dimensional glass canon if desired. But in a way that it can also be played in a more versatile way. If you want to be a full glass canon, camp fire/air and shoot arrows from afar, great (just as you can now play fire/arcane/tempest and camp fire to play a pyromancer... it was even meta for raids for a while). But without attunement unique skills, you won't have your earth/water skills waiting for you when you need them. You can swap attunements, but your skills are still on CD as you used them for a burst in fire/air. At the same time, you can trait more versatility (like arcane) and try to manage your weapon skills along with your attunement changes to improve effects (with combos) for sustain or support.

The idea is that the attunements are still there (they have to be, for traits, glyphs, etc), and they still impact your skills, just in a lesser extend (added effects, not new unique skills per attunements). The idea of the Disciple is that it has a higher focus on the martial side using elemental magic to imbue its skills, not using elemental magic skills itself.    

 

13 hours ago, Dreamatics.4987 said:

longbow? nope gimme rifle ele thanks

I feel like longbow is a better option at this stage. 
Rifle are slow cast most of the time, and our other long range weapon (staff) is already slow... We could use a long range fast casting weapon.

 

On 4/8/2022 at 8:43 PM, Daddy.8125 said:

We have one that is close. Grimjack created one. Air only Weaver. It achieves 26k DPS which is more then many auto attack builds. 

There used to be a air/water core ele using auto attacks with Lightening Hammer in water attunement that was top dps back in the days... 

I think you can almost get the same of a grieving condi weaver auto-attacking with earth shield and rotating fire/air (for sunspot and electric discharge)... 

If conjures were a bit better to use (as using charges to conjure instead of having on the ground, or as kits) it could be a fun option for some.

 

On 4/8/2022 at 7:42 PM, Dadnir.5038 said:

31 skills. 25 for weapons, 6 for utilities. It's less than what they needed to make for weaver.

Yea, redesigning a single set of skills for core weapons and a new 2hander weapon is the same amount (well, nearly if you count trident) of skills than a 2hander with individual elemental skills.

Catalyst has the same amount of skills actually, if you count the 6 utilities, 4 from the orb, and 21 from hammer with the skill 3 having the follow-up.    

 

On 4/9/2022 at 10:20 AM, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Stealth options.

I don't care about the rest, I'd make it work. Just give me some useful stealth already anet (I'll take reveal too). 

My proposal for the Disciple has access to stealth with a smoke field in scepter (with earth) and tons of blasts. A good way to play an elemental magic powered ninja...

 

 

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On 4/9/2022 at 6:14 AM, Infinity.2876 said:

I was thinking of an arcane based elite spec with a shroud like arcane attunement instead of individual elements being able to swap between this and normal weapons(building mana when you use skills in shroud and gaining health or summoning lesser elementals upon exiting )

I think the arcane attunement idea is great, but would much rather see it with pistols in a spell slinger style.

Pistols would be a cool weapon to combine with all the attunements, and the mechanic to unleash raw arcane force could work similarly to Harbinger or Bladesworn (both also use pistols). I just hope the pistol would be dual wield (so we can have p/p) or at least main hand. Off hand only pistol would be a bit lame, IMO.

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3 hours ago, lLobo.7960 said:

I think you misunderstood me. I don't like the idea of an "Arcane Archer" spec, but I like the idea of a spec that can be played (among other styles) as an arcane archer. My suggestion of the disciple can work as an arcane archer, as a monk, as an elemental martial artist... depends on how you build it. The key thing is the synergies beyond the new weapon, but with core weapons and traits

Aaah now I understand what you mean here. And yeah I agree it'd have to flexible enough to work without the weapon. 

Ofcourse to do this they would have to make a arcane set of skills for every weapon but the mechanic behind the resource to use to cast elemental magic through the attunements as a limited function could persist.

Also it'd give weapons such as staff the opportunity to be really good. As weapons at default on the arcane side of things will be damage focused. 

I think it'd give Anet a large opportunity to rly change ele up as it'd break the permanently hybridized design in it currently. To be very DMG centric in abilities.

Ofcourse if its balancable that'd be another question. As we are talking very limited use of attunements in this build. As you'd effectively be weaving in casted abilities inside them. 

And wouldn't be able to use em freehand as they'd cost a resource to use. 

Soo it'd be questionable. 

Edited by Daddy.8125
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On 4/8/2022 at 2:32 PM, Serephen.3420 said:

As nice as that would be can you imagine how many skills they would need to make?  

Maybe slightly more feasible if they make them similar to how glyphs just change effects based on attunements. 

There are lots of ways this could be implemented.

Like glyphs is one way, but it might be slightly different as the idea is that you have a base skill and depending on the active attunement, some complementary effects. The main thing is that, depending on traits or use of the elite skill, you could have multiple attunements active simultaneously, so the effects on the weapon skills would compound. While glyphs (the utility skills) would only give a single version, using the last attunement to be activated.

I think its a basic skill, with a check to see what attunements are active and adding effects to it. No changes in animation, maybe some added particle effects.

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5 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Aaah now I understand what you mean here. And yeah I agree it'd have to flexible enough to work without the weapon. 

Ofcourse to do this they would have to make a arcane set of skills for every weapon but the mechanic behind the resource to use to cast elemental magic through the attunements as a limited function could persist.

Also it'd give weapons such as staff the opportunity to be really good. As weapons at default on the arcane side of things will be damage focused. 

I think it'd give Anet a large opportunity to rly change ele up as it'd break the permanently hybridized design in it currently. To be very DMG centric in abilities.

Ofcourse if its balancable that'd be another question. As we are talking very limited use of attunements in this build. As you'd effectively be weaving in casted abilities inside them. 

And wouldn't be able to use em freehand as they'd cost a resource to use. 

Soo it'd be questionable. 

The hybrid part is still there, but much more based on weapon choice and combining that with attunement.

 

Basically now if you use your Dagger skill 4 and 5 in water attunement to heal yourself, you can swap to air, use dagger skill 4 and 5 again to close a cab and cc the target, swap to fire and use dagger skill 4 and 5 again to burst it. They are all individual skills with different CDs.

With the proposed skills and attunement system for the Disciple, you could use dagger skill 4 and 5 in water to heal yourself, but then you wouldn't be able to just swap to fire and burst as the skill would be on CD... You'd have to swap weapons (maybe staff) and attunements to get the real burst. In this way you'll need to specialize a lot more or manage your skills more efficiently (not so spammy). Weapons would get a more defined role too, so you could use scepter/focus for defense and daggers for offense.  

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A melee longbow, low support (Mostly regeneration, protection, might, and fury), and requires multiple mechanic juggling to do decent amount of damage. It should have heavy emphasis on combos, but only have about one combo field and two finishers. I imagine it should have a combination of a thief's initiative, revenant's energy, and ammo skills that only regenerate while the attunement is not active. And when the devs announce it, they must say "With the Arcane Archer, elementalists will finally have a melee bruiser spec!" Then quickly correct themselves by saying "Well, it's not really melee, water auto attack is 600 range fan spray skill." The spec will then use traps that take 5 seconds to arm, but just before release, trapper runes are nerfed to remove the stealth and raise superspeed by 1 second.

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Hm... i don't like that concept. And I also don't want to see a rifle ele or a pistol ele since the lack of skill imagination at arenanet is real. Think about what the hammer skills could have become and see what they did with it. Now imagine what will happen with rifles and pistols? Yes... Pew Pew (elemental projectile (burn, chill, vulnerability, bleed)) and of course a channeled Pew with a  bigger PEW.

 

Boring

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