Don’t turn Rama into another Rytlock

[Telgum.6071]

On 4/10/2022 at 3:02 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

A video explicitly called a meme by the creator.

"Saw that thread yesterday. Wait, that Kalavier guy's really trying to tell himself this video was just a meme and I didn't mean it? Looks like Olympic season is upon us because that guy's going for the gold medal in mental gymnastics. "

Congratulations, your take was so dumb that you got the creator's attention.

[ZiggyWhiskerz.3089]

On 4/8/2022 at 3:42 PM, Eaglebach.7593 said:

So far they have a lot in common. Both are extremely handsome, manly, rebellious, and certainly the epitome of the “alpha male” type of character. They’re also both warriors who refuse to run banners. They both have their own distinctive, unique feature (sohothin for Rytlock and that big black thingie on Rama’s head). In short they’re just super attractive!

 

Character-wise, they have the most developments amongst their peers. Moreover, they’re amongst the most useful NPC teammates that accompany the Commander on crucial missions. In fact, the two characters both have mentors who end up being secretly evil (Bangar and Li), and consequently, both Rytlock and Rama are forced to dispose their father-figure.

 

Both our heroes are romantically involved with a bossy female partner (Crecia and Min) with whom they grew up under the mentorship of aforementioned evil father-figure. Interestingly, both these female partners become the successor of the aforementioned evil mentor and end up being the superior officer of our heroes (Crecia is now the Acting-Imperator of Blood Legion and Min is the Acting-Minister of MinSec). Overall, we can see that Rama is being built up to be a Rytlock 2.0.

 

Now let’s look at what happens to Rytlock after Crecia took over Blood Legion. The once heroic charr now becomes whipped and he is being kept on a leash by his female-boss/wife(?). Poor Rytlock has to sneak out to attend his teammates’ weddings and is living in constant fear (of his wife) and boredom (of the desk-works). Is that what awaiting Rama once the next expansion is over?

 

Please ANet, don’t let Rama be a whipped under Min’s tyranny. Let him run free and explore Tyria with his fellow detectives. Keep Rama great!

... I'm sorry.... WHAT? 

[Puck.3697]

May I ask. 

How do we boil down in-game Romance down to entrapment and whipped behaviour 

Rtylock wants to rebuild his relationship, and wants to rebuild with his race as he is a tribune. Alot of the threat had ended and as stated at the start of EoDs storyline. Dragons watch was no longer really a thing. 

Ontop of this. 

Rtylock did state, if we have any missions to remember him. Which means if he has a mission crecia will allow him to leave. 

So his leash isn't that short. 

We ended the Charr war, the warbands United, bangar was ended jormag was ended and the son died. 

There isn't alot likely to do among the Charr land outside of pen pushing however he is allowed to leave on missions. 

But here's another thing rtylock was not apart of the pact. He joined dragons watch. Which means he only actually has a mission when he's with us. 

Kasmeer and her wife have left to go somewhere safe and quiet. Kasmeer became the ambassador and diplomat

Canach has made a business with syieda. 

if you can't see the story is simply closing I don't know what to say. Rtylock hasn't become a doormat. But here's the thing. 

Joko is dead.

Balthazar is dead. 

all the dragons excluding aurene are dead. 

the Charr v human war no longer exists. 

the Charr civil war (bangar) is over. 

there's is as of current 0 threats that exist, so the field jobs are extremely low in numbers now i.e rtylocks complaints. 

he's not hamstringed by a woman. He's job is simply primarily desk work as we have basically killed off every threat on Tyria lol

 

[Ashantara.8731]

On 4/8/2022 at 9:42 PM, Eaglebach.7593 said:

So far they have a lot in common. Both are extremely handsome, manly, rebellious, and certainly the epitome of the “alpha male” type of character.

...and that's where I stopped reading. 😉

Rytlock isn't handsome or whatever you consider "manly." He's a grumpy whiner, a shameful excuse for a grown-up. No matter what they tried to make him look cool, he's just a big, whiney baby, which is the complete opposite of attractive.

He has nothing in common with Rama, who has a sense of humor and behaves rationally.

[Touch Me.5462]

7 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

...and that's where I stopped reading. 😉

Rytlock isn't handsome or whatever you consider "manly." He's a grumpy whiner, a shameful excuse for a grown-up. No matter what they tried to make him look cool, he's just a big, whiney baby, which is the complete opposite of attractive.

He has nothing in common with Rama, who has a sense of humor and behaves rationally.

I mean for me how Rytlock was portrayed in Core and Season 1-2/Hot was like a cool, strong and free character. Playing a charr and seeing him dive in the mist without a second thought for his sword was really cool and was very appropriate for his character. 

 

And now he has turned in the thing you described. The whole crying for his son, pushing paper and having a family life now feels very unnatural if you actually know Charr culture .

[Ishmael.6740]

I believe developing from an emotionally repressed henchman of a militarist regime to someone genuinely caring about people and relationships is called "character growth"?

[Touch Me.5462]

1 hour ago, Ishmael.6740 said:

 an emotionally repressed henchman of a militarist regime 

This is your own projection on him. He is a free person that actually does what he enjoys and that just happens to be adventure/war. You don't suddenly go from feared tribune of a legion to baby sitter, grumpy middle-aged charr that likes to stay with his wife.

Especially when your whole culture revolves around war and your whole life you fought. 

[Teratus.2859]

On 4/9/2022 at 3:47 AM, Farohna.6247 said:

An outdated notion that people must be a pack animal with a dominant leader....even wolves have been disproved to have that hierarchy.   

Frankly I find that so called "new discovery" to be highly questionable.
I see no real evidence of it and plenty of evidence to call it nonsensical pseudoscience at best, much like the constant claims that T-rex was some big colourful feathered or furred creature despite every single skin fossil we have of it showing no evidence what so ever that it had a single feather on it's body, and every one of them suggesting it was scaled.

My family is borderline fanatical about animals, we've had hundreds and hundreds of animals over my life time. including many exotic and sometimes dangerous pets.
For the most part it's been mostly dogs but we have had some wolf hybrids as well.

I can tell you certain that canine species absolutely have a pack hierarchy, as do plenty of other species likes Lions and those who form herds such as elephant's and even horses.

There are always leaders in a hierarchy, alpha is simply the term for it.
Granted we didn't have pure wolves, only hybrids but our wolf dogs absolutely had an alpha.
They had an order in which they fed, and the alpha would regularly exert his dominance when others stepped out of line, and plenty of our dogs were the same way as were many other animals on our farm.

I see no reason to flat out believe this new "alpha myth" claims myself, and I don't see any real evidence to validate it either, especially when I've got 30 years of real life experience with many many canine pets.
There's so much misinformation online these days and people just believing what they want to believe, such as the good old feathered T-rex nonsense.
Evidence speaks to the contrary as far as I can see.

[Ishmael.6740]

46 minutes ago, Touch Me.5462 said:

This is your own projection on him. He is a free person that actually does what he enjoys and that just happens to be adventure/war. You don't suddenly go from feared tribune of a legion to baby sitter, grumpy middle-aged charr that likes to stay with his wife.

Especially when your whole culture revolves around war and your whole life you fought. 

 

You're one to talk about projection.

 

  

43 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

There are always leaders in a hierarchy, alpha is simply the term for it.
Granted we didn't have pure wolves, only hybrids but our wolf dogs absolutely had an alpha.

With wolf packs there is no "alpha", especially not an "alpha male/female". Most wolf packs are family structures simply led by the parents. You don't call your dad the "alpha male" of the family just because he's the dad and does dad things.

 

Edit: With dogs it's a bit different, there's dominant and less dominant dogs, but it's not necessarily "one alpha dog", but just those who are more dominant usually calling dibs on food and such.

Edited April 13, 2022 by Ishmael.6740

[Kalavier.1097]

4 hours ago, Ishmael.6740 said:

I believe developing from an emotionally repressed henchman of a militarist regime to someone genuinely caring about people and relationships is called "character growth"?

 

To some of the people here, Simply having a female in authority over you instantly disqualifies you from being a decent male character.

 

5 hours ago, Touch Me.5462 said:

I mean for me how Rytlock was portrayed in Core and Season 1-2/Hot was like a cool, strong and free character. Playing a charr and seeing him dive in the mist without a second thought for his sword was really cool and was very appropriate for his character. 

 

And now he has turned in the thing you described. The whole crying for his son, pushing paper and having a family life now feels very unnatural if you actually know Charr culture .

 

Rytlock literally hasn't changed. in the core game he HATES paperwork and takes any chance he can to be in the field. He's literally at the Black Citadel as PUNISHMENT from bangar. His punishment is being stuck in an office and forced to deal with paperwork. When Destiny's Edge gets back together, he works with them and the orders so they give him a pass to go kill Zhaitan, who was a major threat. After that he's back home for a while, working with Rox, etc. After HoT he ignores the orders to return home because he loves adventuring more then paperwork, until the issue is forced and he must go report in.

 

The thing is now the legions are drained both literally and in a morale sense. They've lost a lot of people so now everybody has to be home making sure things get back to running smoothly. His wife being imperator is just an extra detail. He wants to rebuild his relationship to her, and they both want to rebuild Blood Legion better and stronger.

 

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Frankly I find that so called "new discovery" to be highly questionable.
I see no real evidence of it and plenty of evidence to call it nonsensical pseudoscience at best

 

It actually isn't new, and came from the very author of the book about Alpha wolves. He got to study wild wolf packs, noted they were all family units. This was unlock the mixed groups in zoos/captivity that he had studied. Unrelated wolves all forced to live together would sort out a hierarchy, but that didn't match how wild wolves behaved.

 

Even then it doesn't apply to humans. Animals have a singular social group. Humans have many. One may be a leader in one group and a follower in another.

 

1 hour ago, Ishmael.6740 said:

With wolf packs there is no "alpha", especially not an "alpha male/female". Most wolf packs are family structures simply led by the parents. You don't call your dad the "alpha male" of the family just because he's the dad and does dad things.

 

Edit: With dogs it's a bit different, there's dominant and less dominant dogs, but it's not necessarily "one alpha dog", but just those who are more dominant usually calling dibs on food and such.

 

Pretty much this. Unrelated dogs will sort out who is the boss, but it's unlike wild wolves. In terms of GW2 I pretty much just have it be an actual wolf pack (family unit) that works with my ranger in terms of viewing my norn ranger and the animal companions.

[ugrakarma.9416]

14 hours ago, Daddy.8125 said:

he's not hamstringed by a woman. He's job is simply primarily desk work as we have basically killed off every threat on Tyria lol

 

People(probably young) are over-reading simple stuff and not getting some jokes/sarcarms.

Rytlock ending is a old humor cliché in american comedy or soap tv stuff: the "tough man who is devoted to his wife".

Edited April 13, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Kalavier.1097]

16 minutes ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

People(probably young) are over-reading simple stuff and not getting some jokes/sarcarms.

Rytlock ending is a old humor cliché in american comedy or soap tv stuff: the "tough man who is devoted to his wife".

 

"Dear god the man is forced to do the paperwork because all the work out of the house is done!"

[Farohna.6247]

2 hours ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Frankly I find that so called "new discovery" to be highly questionable.
I see no real evidence of it and plenty of evidence to call it nonsensical pseudoscience at best, much like the constant claims that T-rex was some big colourful feathered or furred creature despite every single skin fossil we have of it showing no evidence what so ever that it had a single feather on it's body, and every one of them suggesting it was scaled.

My family is borderline fanatical about animals, we've had hundreds and hundreds of animals over my life time. including many exotic and sometimes dangerous pets.
For the most part it's been mostly dogs but we have had some wolf hybrids as well.

I can tell you certain that canine species absolutely have a pack hierarchy, as do plenty of other species likes Lions and those who form herds such as elephant's and even horses.

There are always leaders in a hierarchy, alpha is simply the term for it.
Granted we didn't have pure wolves, only hybrids but our wolf dogs absolutely had an alpha.
They had an order in which they fed, and the alpha would regularly exert his dominance when others stepped out of line, and plenty of our dogs were the same way as were many other animals on our farm.

I see no reason to flat out believe this new "alpha myth" claims myself, and I don't see any real evidence to validate it either, especially when I've got 30 years of real life experience with many many canine pets.
There's so much misinformation online these days and people just believing what they want to believe, such as the good old feathered T-rex nonsense.
Evidence speaks to the contrary as far as I can see.

The big myth is the only alpha pairs mate and produce offspring.  This has been proven untrue.  Not sure why you have so many exotic pets, that's controversial and banned in many places, but wild animals in captivity take on some traits they would not exhibit in the wild as well as illnesses.  Lived next to a wolf ranch for many years btw, better just to get a domesticated by thousands of years dog.  Fossils are continually emerging with feathers and intact skin, so while some artistic liberties are taken with dinosaurs, they are no longer just considered oversize alligators.  All of this has little to do with the main topic.  The use of the term alpha male is derogatory and based on stereotypes and a poor description of men.  Assuming the quiet man who sits thoughtfully off to the side while others show off their testosterone is somehow inferior is insulting.  I see them as cerebral possibly.  The use of the term whipped is offensive to anyone in a relationship, granted it's often used humorously but not in OPs statement.

Again, yes we would all like to see strong men and women equally represented.  I would like to see Rama stay as he is, and some people have a misinterpretation of Rytlock..perhaps the sarcasm is lost in translation to different countries or other languages.

[Kalavier.1097]

4 minutes ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Again, yes we would all like to see strong men and women equally represented.  I would like to see Rama stay as he is, and some people have a misinterpretation of Rytlock..perhaps the sarcasm is lost in translation to different countries or other languages.

 

Indeed. I'd love for more strong male characters to be introduced/developed. I'd love if Koss would join the Commander on adventures, the old man deserves to stretch his legs after so long in that cave!

 

Rama, I don't really expect him to change. He's going into business alongside Gorrik and Marjory, he's leaving his Ministry of Security job behind (for now) in favor of private investigation. His romantic interest in in Cantha buried in paperwork, and the other lady who is interested in him is Kiel, but she may not get a chance to meet him before he's off busy with new work and adventures.

[ugrakarma.9416]

21 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

"Dear god the man is forced to do the paperwork because all the work out of the house is done!"

the future of rytlock.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1U97nGbTaU

[Farohna.6247]

41 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

Indeed. I'd love for more strong male characters to be introduced/developed. I'd love if Koss would join the Commander on adventures, the old man deserves to stretch his legs after so long in that cave!

 

Rama, I don't really expect him to change. He's going into business alongside Gorrik and Marjory, he's leaving his Ministry of Security job behind (for now) in favor of private investigation. His romantic interest in in Cantha buried in paperwork, and the other lady who is interested in him is Kiel, but she may not get a chance to meet him before he's off busy with new work and adventures.

I love Koss, he had slipped my mind, I enjoy his story line. 

I look forward to seeing Rama in the future.  Definitely one of my favorite characters and best parts of EoD.  

 

[Ashantara.8731]

7 hours ago, Touch Me.5462 said:

I mean for me how Rytlock was portrayed in Core and Season 1-2/Hot was like a cool, strong and free character.

Really? We must have played two different games then. 😄

I lost all respect for him over his whiney, childish quarrel with Logan early on in the game. He was just as annoying as Zojja in it.

And he hasn't stopped being a grumpy whiner ever since, unless Crecia shuts him up that is. He's constantly huffing and puffing, growling and sighing and whining his way through most of the story.

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Again, yes we would all like to see strong men and women equally represented.  I would like to see Rama stay as he is, and some people have a misinterpretation of Rytlock..perhaps the sarcasm is lost in translation to different countries or other languages.

I play the game in English, and yes, sometimes it's sarcasm, but most of the time it's the above.
 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Ashantara.8731

[Eekasqueak.7850]

I like how Rytlock is right now, lots of dry humor and I can't blame him for not liking paperwork. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by Eekasqueak.7850

[DragonMoon.6098]

On 4/8/2022 at 10:48 PM, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Does the motive matter in this case?  He's not wrong, is he?  As you say, you can go anywhere else.  But what if where you want to go is right here?  Cringe rhetoric aside, the observation is accurate and the request is reasonable (albeit not its delivery).  The story does lack strong male characters in leadership roles.  In GW2's story male characters are all either comic relief, villains, or subordinates.  Does it have to be so one-sided simply because the opposite is (or once was?) true elsewhere?

There are a lot of strong male characters in the game, as others have already mentioned. And no males in leadership or powerful roles? Um, ok... Everybody wants to talk about Braham being a dumb kid who is eternally in a subordinate role. But it's been 9 years since we first met him. He's not a kid anymore. Start a new Norn character and listen to the intro narrative. "One day, a hero will lead us home, and we will break the icy dragon's grip." That "hero" that is mentioned...that's not the PC. That's Braham. The PC may be the hero of Tyria, but Braham is the hero of the Norn. He may have had a rough, stumbling start...but he got there, and I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of it now that the Norn can return to their ancestral home. (Yeah I get it...Braham's a dumb whiny kid who dared to stand up to the player character ONCE. Five years ago. Get. Over. It.)

The level of fragile male ego to unpack in this thread is both concerning yet not surprising all at the same time. Is it really so bad that we're presented with a majority of strong female characters? I mean, how long have we all gamed with a very solid majority of male-lead games? Where females were only presented as objects to be had or fought over? Or were used as plot devices to further the *surprise* male hero's narrative? Don't get me wrong...I like men. Very much, in fact. But frankly, it's refreshing to me to play any game where women aren't shoehorned into being only objects of the male gaze. 

One thing that made me giggle was the mention earlier in the thread that men tend to play female characters because they like to look at them. Is that the case with women? This woman sure doesn't enjoy playing male characters, even though she likes to look at them. I play almost exclusively women...because I like to play *as* them. I'd imagine that's the case for a lot of female gamers. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098
schpelling

[DragonMoon.6098]

On 4/9/2022 at 12:46 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

I think the problem here is too much focus on relationships and intent to pair everyone off.  When they are paired off they seem anything but partners; some like Logan are in servitude to a female because they want to be

They actually freed Logan from that could-be-interpreted-as-problematic leash. Thankfully. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[DragonMoon.6098]

18 hours ago, Ashantara.8731 said:

...and that's where I stopped reading. 😉

 

...BUT HIS FUR IS SO SOFT....!

[AliamRationem.5172]

32 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

There are a lot of strong male characters in the game, as others have already mentioned. And everybody wants to talk about Braham being a dumb kid who is eternally in a subordinate role. It's been 9 years since we first met him. He's not a kid anymore. Start a new Norn character and listen to the intro narrative. "One day, a hero will lead us home, and we will break the icy dragon's grip." That "hero" that is mentioned...that's not he PC. That's Braham. The PC may be the hero of Tyria, but Braham is the hero of the Norn. He may have had a rough, stumbling start...but he got there, and I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of it now that the Norn can return to their ancestral home. No males in powerful roles? Um, ok. (Yeah I get it...Braham's a dumb whiny kid who dared to stand up to my character ONCE. Five years ago. Get. Over. It.)

The level of fragile male ego to unpack in this thread is both concerning yet not surprising all at the same time. Is it really so bad that we're presented with a majority of strong female characters? I mean, how long have we all gamed with a very solid majority of male-lead games? Where females were only presented as objects to be had or fought over? Or were used as plot devices to further the *surprise* male hero's narrative? Don't get me wrong...I like men. Very much. But frankly, it's refreshing to me to play any game where women aren't shoehorned into being only objects of the male gaze. 

Braham spent the first episode of IBS getting drunk, acting the fool, and getting taken advantage of by our enemies.  But of course that sort of thing happens to our female heroes all the time and we don't view them as clowns at all, right?

Your privilege and bias is showing.

[DragonMoon.6098]

15 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Braham spent the first episode of IBS getting drunk, acting the fool, and getting taken advantage of by our enemies.  But of course that sort of thing happens to our female heroes all the time and we don't view them as clowns at all, right?

Your privilege and bias is showing.

Privilege? What privilege? LOL. Men have been catered to in gaming for DECADES. 

And if I remember right, two out of three of the character development choices for a (potentially female) Norn PC are based on being drunk and stupid. People make mistakes. They mature. They learn. Hopefully. Another example... Kasmeer runs away and leaves the love of her life to die in front of Balthazar. Just poofs right the heck out. That's a pretty grievous and cowardly mistake. But she learns from it and owns up to it. So yes, females can and do make mistakes in the game that they have to learn and develop from. 

I should have known better than to say something, tho...because arguing with people online is a completely wasted effort. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098

[AliamRationem.5172]

36 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

Privilege? What privilege? LOL. Men have been catered to in gaming for DECADES. 

And if I remember right, two out of three of the character development choices for a (potentially female) Norn PC are based on being drunk and stupid. People make mistakes. They mature. They learn. Hopefully. Another example... Kasmeer runs away and leaves the love of her life to die in front of Balthazar. Just poofs right the heck out. That's a pretty grievous and cowardly mistake. But she learns from it and owns up to it. So yes, females can and do make mistakes in the game that they have to learn and develop from. 

I should have known better than to say something, tho...because arguing with people online is a completely wasted effort. 

The privilege that comes of feeling you can speak about men any which way you like because of what happened before.

FWIW, I'm not one of these guys outraged at the existence of women as more than objects of male attraction in video games.  I also very much disagree with the way the OP delivered his message.

Having said that, he has a point. Male characters are too often portrayed as foolish or worse.  If the argument is that this is payback for decades of male dominance, I disagree.  I don't think there's room for that when equality is the goal.

[DragonMoon.6098]

16 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

The privilege that comes of feeling you can speak about men any which way you like because of what happened before.

FWIW, I'm not one of these guys outraged at the existence of women as more than objects of male attraction in video games.  I also very much disagree with the way the OP delivered his message.

Having said that, he has a point. Male characters are too often portrayed as foolish or worse.  If the argument is that this is payback for decades of male dominance, I disagree.  I don't think there's room for that when equality is the goal.

I never said this is payback. I do feel like there's an awful lot of cherry-picking here and failing to acknowledge or even see the good male characters that are already in the game (Rytlock, Gorrik, and yes even Braham, etc, etc)(BTW, without Gorrik and his giant noggin, we likely wouldn't have been able to defeat Joko)...and actively choosing not to see the flaws in some of the afore-mentioned strong female characters in the game. There is also a distinct lack of any consideration on if having a majority of solid female characters is really a bad thing. Because...is it really so bad? One game out of how many? "We had 40 seats at the table and now we only have 38!!! That’s not fair!" Sounds silly, doesn't it?

Edited April 13, 2022 by DragonMoon.6098