Don’t turn Rama into another Rytlock

[AliamRationem.5172]

39 minutes ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

I never said this is payback. I do feel like there's an awful lot of cherry-picking here and failing to acknowledge or even see the good male characters that are already in the game (Rytlock, Gorrik, and yes even Braham, etc, etc)(BTW, without Gorrik and his giant noggin, we likely wouldn't have been able to defeat Joko)...and actively choosing not to see the flaws in some of the afore-mentioned strong female characters in the game. There is also a distinct lack of any consideration on if having a majority of solid female characters is really a bad thing. Because...is it really so bad? One game out of how many? "We had 40 seats at the table and now we only have 38!!! That’s not fair!" Sounds silly, doesn't it?

You say there's no element of "payback" but then go on to talk about the past, other games, etc.  In answer to your question, no, it's not a bad thing that females and other traditionally poorly represented elements take center stage in GW2.  I've always considered that refreshing.

Still, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing and I think the writers should keep that in mind in the way they represent male characters, regardless of what other games do or what has happened in the past.  Equality is not a one-way street after all.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Braham spent the first episode of IBS getting drunk, acting the fool, and getting taken advantage of by our enemies.  But of course that sort of thing happens to our female heroes all the time and we don't view them as clowns at all, right?

Your privilege and bias is showing.

 

People keep forgetting that A: Braham doesn't have any sort of real diplomatic training (hell, he went from NEVER leaving his home, a point his crush uses to smash down his advances, to exploring the world with the Commander instantly). and B: That Ryland was kittening playing Braham from the start to get in close, get his guard down, get him so drunk he passed out hardcore (Like the norn PC intro story option!) so he could steal the bow.

It's not like Braham showed up and just kittening went out to party, he got a deluxe tour of the area and facilities by Ryland who at every single stop slipped him another beer or two. The strongest/probably spiked beer.

2 hours ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

I should have known better than to say something, tho...because arguing with people online is a completely wasted effort. 

 

When the one guy literally listed Gorrik and Canach being bad characters because they spent time working for (in Gorrik's case, literally alongside as equal) a woman... I knew those specific people weren't going to change.

 

It's like, going off the OP's logic, there can only be a good male character from the Durmand Priory, Order of Shadows, Jade Brotherhood, Flame Legion, parts of LA or Rata Sum, Sunspears, Joko Loyalists/Vabbians basically. Because if a female is in Authority the male cannot be a good character.

[ugrakarma.9416]

I'd be happy and stop complain if they just brought back an equivalent of Trahearne:

A wise, serene man who's not a psychopath, or a "drunk householder" type, who's not the gambler-addicted type, or the childish type in an adult's body. ..., who from time to time helps us with wisdom and knowledge of ancient things or about magic. 

would be the best substitute for Taimi.

Edited April 14, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Touch Me.5462]

9 hours ago, DragonMoon.6098 said:

and actively choosing not to see the flaws in some of the afore-mentioned strong female characters in the game. There is also a distinct lack of any consideration on if having a majority of solid female characters is really a bad thing. Because...is it really so bad? One game out of how many? "We had 40 seats at the table and now we only have 38!!! That’s not fair!" Sounds silly, doesn't it?

So you also see the different treatment that female characters get = )

So you want the majority of the well written characters to be female because you like them exactly the same way I like male characters. So why me asking for a equal amount of male/female well written characters be such a bad thing?

You are acting as if getting more male characters that are inspiring and well written equals no good female ones.

Why should you bring into the game the history( yes history if you get what I mean) in to the game I just want to have fun playing I don't want to think about your stupid gender war.

7 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

People keep forgetting that A: Braham doesn't have any sort of real diplomatic training (hell, he went from NEVER leaving his home, a point his crush uses to smash down his advances, to exploring the world with the Commander instantly). and B: That Ryland was kittening playing Braham from the start to get in close, get his guard down, get him so drunk he passed out hardcore (Like the norn PC intro story option!) so he could steal the bow.

It's not like Braham showed up and just kittening went out to party, he got a deluxe tour of the area and facilities by Ryland who at every single stop slipped him another beer or two. The strongest/probably spiked beer.

 

That's called taking advantage of and it's embarrassing and it's not something that in my book a strong man does.

[Diovid.9506]

13 minutes ago, Touch Me.5462 said:

So you also see the different treatment that female characters get = )

So you want the majority of the well written characters to be female because you like them exactly the same way I like male characters. So why me asking for a equal amount of male/female well written characters be such a bad thing?

You are acting as if getting more male characters that are inspiring and well written equals no good female ones.

Why should you bring into the game the history( yes history if you get what I mean) in to the game I just want to have fun playing I don't want to think about your stupid gender war.

That's called taking advantage of and it's embarrassing and it's not something that in my book a strong man does.

As a cis straight white man I am so done with people like you determining what it means for a man to be strong. I'll just leave my response at that. 

[Kalavier.1097]

5 hours ago, Touch Me.5462 said:

That's called taking advantage of and it's embarrassing and it's not something that in my book a strong man does.

 

How dare a villain do villain things.

edit: Let's not forget that Ryland at that point was acting under the order of Bangar to obtain the bow without causing a diplomatic incident or expose their plans.

And he did so quite in a clever manner, by making it appear as if they got drunk and blacked out brawling with (probably agents of Bangar) aggressive thugs. So when the bow was missing, nobody suspected Ryland until it was too late.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Ishmael.6740]

4 hours ago, Touch Me.5462 said:

You are acting as if getting more male characters that are inspiring and well written equals no good female ones.

Why should you bring into the game the history( yes history if you get what I mean) in to the game I just want to have fun playing I don't want to think about your stupid gender war.

 

Yet it feels like you're the one who acts like having a female supervisor somehow makes a male character less "manly". 

[Teratus.2859]

23 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

The big myth is the only alpha pairs mate and produce offspring.  This has been proven untrue. 

Stuff like that is subject to change as we learn more yes but the premise of a pack leader/alpha among many animals is something we've observed in countless species since humans started studying animals.

Simply saying wolves having alphas is a myth is incorrect, they do have them,  we just know more about their social structure now.
That doesn't erase the existence of alpha's, it just means we understand more about the species.
 

23 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Not sure why you have so many exotic pets, that's controversial and banned in many places.

Where I am from it depends on the species, wolf hybrids are legal but they are also a bit controversial too, not many people have them thankfully nor should they.
None of our exotic pets were illegal though , just to clarify 🙂
 

23 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Fossils are continually emerging with feathers and intact skin, so while some artistic liberties are taken with dinosaurs, they are no longer just considered oversize alligators.

Yes fossils of some species are definitely showcasing some species being feathered many of them small raptor species which are pretty awesome.

The problem with Rex is we have numerous skin fossils that show it as a scaled animal and then we discover one species of tyrannosauroid on the other side of the world that lived in a different time and environment that does look like it had feathers and people instantly start believing they all had feathers as well, despite absolutely no evidence to support it.. even the ignoring evidence we do have suggesting the opposite.
That's basically how that entire narrative started.

All the evidence we have from countless tyrannosauridae species points to feathery Yutyrannus being the exception not the rule.
Until we dig up a Rex fossil showing clear evidence of feathers it's just wildly incorrect to claim it had them as some people annoyingly do these days lol.

23 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

All of this has little to do with the main topic.  The use of the term alpha male is derogatory and based on stereotypes and a poor description of men.  Assuming the quiet man who sits thoughtfully off to the side while others show off their testosterone is somehow inferior is insulting.  I see them as cerebral possibly.  The use of the term whipped is offensive to anyone in a relationship, granted it's often used humorously but not in OPs statement.

Yea I know, I considered it relevant enough due to the misusing or dismissal of the term Alpha which is why I made the original post.

Personally I don't consider the term "Alpha" derogatory in human application, if anything I consider it to be a joke people use to big themselves up.. usually having amusing and embarrassing results in the end.

Beta is the more derogatory word used although the word itself isn't actually derogatory, the context it is used in however often is.

Whipped is again contextually relevant and as even you said is most often used as a joke.
I don't find anything offensive about Whipped personally, like most people I find it quite funny when it's used.

23 hours ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Again, yes we would all like to see strong men and women equally represented.  I would like to see Rama stay as he is, and some people have a misinterpretation of Rytlock..perhaps the sarcasm is lost in translation to different countries or other languages.

I didn't really chime in on this but why not.

I don't have any issue with strong female characters, I've enjoyed many of them over my life such as Sara Connor, Ellen Ripley, Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Jennifer Tate (points if you know what game she is from) just to name a couple.

Those characters are strong because they overcame great challenge and were bad***es while doing it.
These days there's a bit more of a trend of "strong" female characters being represented as strong by simply putting down a weaker male character.. which just feels lazy to me and a bit insulting to both genders.

If you were to put Lara Croft in a game with Nathan Drake would really want Lara to be constantly putting Drake down just to appear strong?
Or would you rather Lara be the bad*** she always was and compete with Drake on the same equal level?
Resulting in 2 awesome characters leading your game rather than one stepping on the other constantly to appear superior.

I know which I would pick in a heartbeat lol
They're both awesome.
 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Teratus.2859

[Kalavier.1097]

59 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

If you were to put Lara Croft in a game with Nathan Drake would really want Lara to be constantly putting Drake down just to appear strong?

Or would you rather Lara be the kitten she always was and compete with Drake on the same equal level?
Resulting in 2 awesome characters leading your game rather than one stepping on the other constantly to appear superior.

I know which I would pick in a heartbeat lol
They're both awesome.
 

 

While this example is a good one, I'd have to ask where in GW does this happen(Often, if at all)? I mean, there is one thing to say "Hey we need more strong male characters because we don't have a lot." and another to imply the game and devs purposefully put down men just to prop up women, or say/act as if men are inherently worse/more evil. I'm unsure if you mean to imply GW2 does this, or just an "in general" example. Which yes, in those situations it is poor writing to put one down just to try to elevate another. But off the top of my head I can't really think of major cases of it happening in GW2, besides perhaps Asura backstabbing each other (as their culture does) to ensure they get the best rewards/most recognition.

 

The issue I've seen here is that other people seem to take "There isn't as many well written male characters." as a conspiracy/statement that men are in general, worse. Which is a bizarre stance to take when I've not heard the devs or even the game mirror this sort of statement. Combo those people's statements which also place very odd limits on "What makes a well written/strong male character."... It's weird.

 

More well written and strong male characters? Yes please.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Farohna.6247]

1 hour ago, Teratus.2859 said:

Stuff like that is subject to change as we learn more yes but the premise of a pack leader/alpha among many animals is something we've observed in countless species since humans started studying animals.

Simply saying wolves having alphas is a myth is incorrect, they do have them,  we just know more about their social structure now.
That doesn't erase the existence of alpha's, it just means we understand more about the species.
 

Where I am from it depends on the species, wolf hybrids are legal but they are also a bit controversial too, not many people have them thankfully nor should they.
None of our exotic pets were illegal though , just to clarify 🙂
 

Yes fossils of some species are definitely showcasing some species being feathered many of them small raptor species which are pretty awesome.

The problem with Rex is we have numerous skin fossils that show it as a scaled animal and then we discover one species of tyrannosauroid on the other side of the world that lived in a different time and environment that does look like it had feathers and people instantly start believing they all had feathers as well, despite absolutely no evidence to support it.. even the ignoring evidence we do have suggesting the opposite.
That's basically how that entire narrative started.

All the evidence we have from countless tyrannosauridae species points to feathery Yutyrannus being the exception not the rule.
Until we dig up a Rex fossil showing clear evidence of feathers it's just wildly incorrect to claim it had them as some people annoyingly do these days lol.

Yea I know, I considered it relevant enough due to the misusing or dismissal of the term Alpha which is why I made the original post.

Personally I don't consider the term "Alpha" derogatory in human application, if anything I consider it to be a joke people use to big themselves up.. usually having amusing and embarrassing results in the end.

Beta is the more derogatory word used although the word itself isn't actually derogatory, the context it is used in however often is.

Whipped is again contextually relevant and as even you said is most often used as a joke.
I don't find anything offensive about Whipped personally, like most people I find it quite funny when it's used.

I didn't really chime in on this but why not.

I don't have any issue with strong female characters, I've enjoyed many of them over my life such as Sara Connor, Ellen Ripley, Lara Croft, Samus Aran, Jennifer Tate (points if you know what game she is from) just to name a couple.

Those characters are strong because they overcame great challenge and were bad***es while doing it.
These days there's a bit more of a trend of "strong" female characters being represented as strong by simply putting down a weaker male character.. which just feels lazy to me and a bit insulting to both genders.

If you were to put Lara Croft in a game with Nathan Drake would really want Lara to be constantly putting Drake down just to appear strong?
Or would you rather Lara be the bad*** she always was and compete with Drake on the same equal level?
Resulting in 2 awesome characters leading your game rather than one stepping on the other constantly to appear superior.

I know which I would pick in a heartbeat lol
They're both awesome.
 

I appreciate your thoughtful and well explained responses and some clarifications, for me at least!  I respect that and agree with your reasoning on much of it.  

Lazy writing has become an issue in many entertainment forms.  For GW2 I see the many of the characters as being flawed, and overcoming those flaws with the help of the commander.  That's it trope in itself much like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz...all the characters are missing something until she comes along.  

It really comes down to some people are wanting to see the classic superhero macho man stoically charging into battle.  GW2 addresses in its own way what if that person didn't start out that way but becomes that.  We see the self doubts, the uncertainty, and it's not always well written and not all the characters are compelling all the time.  Some hidden agenda to undermine WASPy men though, no. 

Most things swing hard one way, then balance back out...in the past it was characters of different ethnicities and races.  Now it's genders and understanding that it's not all one or the other.  It's trying to show that hey that person is like me and not deserving of hate.  Unfortunately that makes some people feel marginalized, even though centuries of being the front liner apparently isn't enough.  Makes it feel like entertainment is trying to hard, sure.  Will it be a moot point in a decade, yes.  

[voltaicbore.8012]

18 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

Still, there is such a thing as too much of a good thing and I think the writers should keep that in mind in the way they represent male characters, regardless of what other games do or what has happened in the past.

I think this is the most reasonable position to take on the matter.

1 hour ago, Farohna.6247 said:

Makes it feel like entertainment is trying to hard, sure. 

This is another expression of the same idea, to me. I don't disagree with the message itself (inequality was most certainly a thing, and women/everyone who wasn't a dude deserve a fair shake at everything), and I suspect most players are in the same boat. What a lot of us don't see the need for is to swing the pendulum in the other direction, hold it there, scream at everyone about how stunning and brave it is to hold the pendulum there, and then berate anyone who dares to suggest balance is better.

We get it, ANet - you're woke. That is unironically fine and dandy, I have no problem with that.

I do have a problem when storytelling choices are so apparently subordinated to IRL ideologies, simply because it usually leads to boring , predictable, and often irrational choices.

Edited April 14, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Rasimir.6239]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:00 PM, voltaicbore.8012 said:

What a lot of us don't see the need for is to swing the pendulum in the other direction, hold it there, scream at everyone about how stunning and brave it is to hold the pendulum there, and then berate anyone who dares to suggest balance is better.

Thing is, I don't see anybody doing this kind of thing. I see a fantasy world with people doing their thing. What race/gender/nationality/whatever any of them are doesn't make any difference to the story being told, or how it's being told.

 

What is really puzzling me about the whole thing is not the characters in game or the way they're presented, but the players out of game looking for hidden (or not so hidden) agenda all over the place just because the game's story and characters don't follow the stereotypes we've been treated to in media for the longest time.

[voltaicbore.8012]

11 hours ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

What is really puzzling me about the whole thing is not the characters in game or the way they're presented

Eh. To me, that just means you're being selectively indifferent to the male characters many of us feel ANet has maligned.

Smodur is a very recent, very stark example. He was presented to us initially as a rational leader - went for the treaty not because of his affection for humanity, interest in fostering international peace, or great faith in the Power of Friendship as the game's main story so insistently pushes forward. Instead, it was simply the smartest choice to pursue the interests of the united Legions and possibly his future ambitions for the Khan-Ur title. Cut to IBS, where he was basically presented as a villain who happened to be on our team. Executing deserters has been standard fare during wartime, for basically as long as organized militaries existed. Yet we're supposed to be offended to Karen-esque levels to see it happening in Drizzlewood under Smodur's command. He also goes out of his way to ruin the negotiation with Ryland. Ryland's ultimate decision to die rather than accept defeat just proves that Smodur was right all along, but ANet saw fit to assassinate his character first, then assassinate him literally later.

Minister Li didn't even have a chance. He was set up as "that MAN" by Kasmeer from the get-go. And no, this is not being oversensitive. The story very clearly indicates that Kasmeer is in Cantha as a diplomatic presence, and takes her role very seriously. She should basically refer to Minister Li by his title, or at the very least by his surname while in an open space. Outside of Kasmeer's obvious slight, the story pretty much one-notes him as a mean old xenophobe. Again, like Smodur, events largely prove his point; Joon's inability to sequester important elements of Cantha from outsiders was disastrous. At the best, exposing her operations to Aetherblades presented huge security risks to Xunlai Jade. At worst, it nearly unmade all of existence. Instead of making his character more interesting by exploring how his (reasonable and accurate) zeal for maintaining security was corrupted by an inability to adapt and a perhaps a feeling of betrayal that his protege Rama was turned against him by an outsider, he's just a big ol bigot we unseat from his position so the (admittedly charming) Captain Min can leapfrog all the layers of deputy Ministers to take his spot.

Contrast Li's treatment with Joon. Like I mentioned, Joon nearly destroyed her jade power operation, Cantha's precarious security, and the world itself through her hubris. She could have been enormously more interesting as a character. Here's a person who overcame adversity in her own right, combined her own talents with a bold experiment, and arguably single-handedly changed the face of her civilization. Yet her hubris exposed the most sensitive parts of her accomplishment to exactly the wrong kind of outsiders, one of whom came very close to feeding every last one of us to the Void. Many parallels to Li, really. Li was correct about his primary obsession (outsiders present huge risks to Cantha) but his correctness was corrupted by a personal flaw (being a crusty old racist). Joon was also correct (being xenophobic and refusing to accept progress would hold back Cantha) but that correctness was also corrupted by her own flaw (her hubris and inability to accept that she might not have every single right answer). 

Li gets called out as the bigot he is, is sent to prison, and we feel justice was done. Joon... gets to throw a little tantrum, toss a wrench past Taimi's head, and we're supposed to embrace her again as part of Team Good Guy. Given how Mai Trin went out and how Li was treated, I was holding onto the weak hope that EoD was interested in some form of comeuppance for bad decisions. Not everyone has to die or go to prison, for sure. But Joon's story arc completely failed to have her make a full accounting for her clear errors.

The wall of text is big enough, so I'll leave it at that for now.

The narrative decisions just seem too consistently willing to trash male characters while being overly protective of female ones. None of this has anything to do with traditional presentations of the genders in all of media. It's just that the story's treatment of certain characters is just downright inferior, and when looking more closely at said inferiority, it's hard not to notice the gender breakdown ANet went for.

[Diovid.9506]

1 hour ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Eh. To me, that just means you're being selectively indifferent to the male characters many of us feel ANet has maligned.

Smodur is a very recent, very stark example. He was presented to us initially as a rational leader - went for the treaty not because of his affection for humanity, interest in fostering international peace, or great faith in the Power of Friendship as the game's main story so insistently pushes forward. Instead, it was simply the smartest choice to pursue the interests of the united Legions and possibly his future ambitions for the Khan-Ur title. Cut to IBS, where he was basically presented as a villain who happened to be on our team. Executing deserters has been standard fare during wartime, for basically as long as organized militaries existed. Yet we're supposed to be offended to Karen-esque levels to see it happening in Drizzlewood under Smodur's command. He also goes out of his way to ruin the negotiation with Ryland. Ryland's ultimate decision to die rather than accept defeat just proves that Smodur was right all along, but ANet saw fit to assassinate his character first, then assassinate him literally later.

Minister Li didn't even have a chance. He was set up as "that MAN" by Kasmeer from the get-go. And no, this is not being oversensitive. The story very clearly indicates that Kasmeer is in Cantha as a diplomatic presence, and takes her role very seriously. She should basically refer to Minister Li by his title, or at the very least by his surname while in an open space. Outside of Kasmeer's obvious slight, the story pretty much one-notes him as a mean old xenophobe. Again, like Smodur, events largely prove his point; Joon's inability to sequester important elements of Cantha from outsiders was disastrous. At the best, exposing her operations to Aetherblades presented huge security risks to Xunlai Jade. At worst, it nearly unmade all of existence. Instead of making his character more interesting by exploring how his (reasonable and accurate) zeal for maintaining security was corrupted by an inability to adapt and a perhaps a feeling of betrayal that his protege Rama was turned against him by an outsider, he's just a big ol bigot we unseat from his position so the (admittedly charming) Captain Min can leapfrog all the layers of deputy Ministers to take his spot.

Contrast Li's treatment with Joon. Like I mentioned, Joon nearly destroyed her jade power operation, Cantha's precarious security, and the world itself through her hubris. She could have been enormously more interesting as a character. Here's a person who overcame adversity in her own right, combined her own talents with a bold experiment, and arguably single-handedly changed the face of her civilization. Yet her hubris exposed the most sensitive parts of her accomplishment to exactly the wrong kind of outsiders, one of whom came very close to feeding every last one of us to the Void. Many parallels to Li, really. Li was correct about his primary obsession (outsiders present huge risks to Cantha) but his correctness was corrupted by a personal flaw (being a crusty old racist). Joon was also correct (being xenophobic and refusing to accept progress would hold back Cantha) but that correctness was also corrupted by her own flaw (her hubris and inability to accept that she might not have every single right answer). 

Li gets called out as the bigot he is, is sent to prison, and we feel justice was done. Joon... gets to throw a little tantrum, toss a wrench past Taimi's head, and we're supposed to embrace her again as part of Team Good Guy. Given how Mai Trin went out and how Li was treated, I was holding onto the weak hope that EoD was interested in some form of comeuppance for bad decisions. Not everyone has to die or go to prison, for sure. But Joon's story arc completely failed to have her make a full accounting for her clear errors.

The wall of text is big enough, so I'll leave it at that for now.

The narrative decisions just seem too consistently willing to trash male characters while being overly protective of female ones. None of this has anything to do with traditional presentations of the genders in all of media. It's just that the story's treatment of certain characters is just downright inferior, and when looking more closely at said inferiority, it's hard not to notice the gender breakdown ANet went for.

I agree that how both Li and Joon were handled could be better, I just don't see how their gender has much to do with that.

 

For someone who says Anet has a focus on gender, you seem to be suffering from that yourself quite a bit. 

[voltaicbore.8012]

11 hours ago, Diovid.9506 said:

For someone who says Anet has a focus on gender, you seem to be suffering from that yourself quite a bit. 

Nice misdirect.

So if someone else has a problem, and the problem is so apparent that I point it out, I'm really the one with the problem, right?

10/10 logic.

[Teratus.2859]

On 4/14/2022 at 3:04 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

While this example is a good one, I'd have to ask where in GW does this happen(Often, if at all)? I mean, there is one thing to say "Hey we need more strong male characters because we don't have a lot." and another to imply the game and devs purposefully put down men just to prop up women, or say/act as if men are inherently worse/more evil. I'm unsure if you mean to imply GW2 does this, or just an "in general" example. Which yes, in those situations it is poor writing to put one down just to try to elevate another. But off the top of my head I can't really think of major cases of it happening in GW2, besides perhaps Asura backstabbing each other (as their culture does) to ensure they get the best rewards/most recognition.

It was more of an in general opinion yes based on the industry overall.

As far as Anet goes I consider them to be overall pretty good at keeping a fairly middle ground, at least when compared to other companies.
I can certainly agree that there are a lot of strong female's in the game and many in positions of power but I wouldn't say any of them are poorly written or lacking character.
If anything the vast majority of them are quite likable.

The only characters i've ever really disliked in Gw2 is Traherne and Scarlet.
Traherne I just found so boring and dreary and Scarlet I just didn't find interesting in the beginning.. not to mention her constant popping up behind every disaster like a comic book villain "Ha!! it was me behind this all along!!" which happened a lot in season 1 lol
But I can easily chalk both of those up to Gw2 being new and not having found it's feet yet.

On 4/14/2022 at 3:04 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

The issue I've seen here is that other people seem to take "There isn't as many well written male characters." as a conspiracy/statement that men are in general, worse. Which is a bizarre stance to take when I've not heard the devs or even the game mirror this sort of statement. Combo those people's statements which also place very odd limits on "What makes a well written/strong male character."... It's weird.

More well written and strong male characters? Yes please.

I agree, I feel the same way as well.

My bets are it's more to do with what people see in the industry at large and when they see so many females in Gw2 they simply assume it's just another game trying to push the woke agenda.

I can agree that some male characters have kinda been neglected like Logan who's come and gone a lot in the story but then we've had tons of Rytlock and Canach, tons of Braham as well.
Kas and Jory have come and gone a lot too, as has Rox with Taimi being the main female who's been around more or less constantly.

And then there's the little elephant in the room.. Zoja, where the kitten has she been for the last decade!!

I can't in good faith agree with the opinion that males have been poorly written to boost up females in Gw2.
If anything they're all been fairly well written and they've all had their moments to shine.. except Zoja who's probably been playing Super Adventure Box for 10 years or something XD

[Kalavier.1097]

55 minutes ago, Teratus.2859 said:

I can't in good faith agree with the opinion that males have been poorly written to boost up females in Gw2.

If anything they're all been fairly well written and they've all had their moments to shine.. except Zoja who's probably been playing Super Adventure Box for 10 years or something XD

 

No Coma or mind addling, she's just tired of fighting and went to relax where nobody can bother her. Hidden npc in world 3 or 4 😛

[Kossage.9072]

On 4/14/2022 at 6:59 AM, ugrakarma.9416 said:

I'd be happy and stop complain if they just brought back an equivalent of Trahearne:

A wise, serene man who's not a psychopath, or a "drunk householder" type, who's not the gambler-addicted type, or the childish type in an adult's body. ..., who from time to time helps us with wisdom and knowledge of ancient things or about magic. 

would be the best substitute for Taimi.

While he's not a genius on par with Taimi, Spearmarshal Zaeim is still a capable, charismatic, wise and strategic man whom Tahlkora chose as her successor. Not flawless, of course, but he learns from his mistakes and grows stronger because of it. While the Commander is the Hero of Tyria, Zaeim is known as the Hero of Istan and arguably became the Hero of Elona in the process of Season 4. I'll keep my fingers crossed that we get to adventure with him again in and perhaps even outside Elona if Sianna's Seitung statement of Elonian politics finally stabilizing into a republic holds any weight. At least I was happy to see Zaeim's brief cameo in EoD. 🙂

On 4/14/2022 at 9:27 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

How dare a villain do villain things.

edit: Let's not forget that Ryland at that point was acting under the order of Bangar to obtain the bow without causing a diplomatic incident or expose their plans.

And he did so quite in a clever manner, by making it appear as if they got drunk and blacked out brawling with (probably agents of Bangar) aggressive thugs. So when the bow was missing, nobody suspected Ryland until it was too late.

There's still one mystery ANet hasn't answered about Bound by Blood: who sabotaged the Brand stompers throughout Grothmar Valley? Curiously a seemingly random asura noticed that something was amiss and offered some tips to the charr engineers on how to fix the stompers, so it made me wonder if that was just a convenient coincidence or if, say, the Inquest had deliberately sabotaged the stompers to draw the Branded out and thus force Aurene to intervene in the ceremony, which then led to riling up the charr and Bangar speeding up his plans. After all, the valley had one asura clad in what looked like Inquest clothes arguing with a charr about how best to weaponize Aurene. Perhaps the devs could even tie this sabotage to the ongoing experiments by Overseer Kuda who is very interested in dragon research.

While I think one of the anniversary livestreams suggested that Ryland's profession might be engineer (which could in turn imply that he was the saboteur), that would require Ryland to have enough knowledge of Aurene's personality to hope for that preferred Branded intervention outcome, which would be odd given how oblivious Ryland seemed to be of dragon personalities and hierarchies during Darkrime Delves mission.

As for the bias in GW2 writing favoring women over men, I've definitely noticed some patterns since early worldbuilding, core story and novels, intentional or not. Some examples:

The females Jennah and Pale Tree are the truly competent leaders out of the five nations. From core, Knut Whitebear is suggested to be capable but just stays home except for that brief Grove trip in Season 2 and does nothing (maybe this could've changed if the saga had been allowed to last longer, but I hold out hope he'll get his chance to shine and fight alongside his wife Gaerta one day as a true power couple) as he basically was a stay at home dad who raised his two sons while Gaerta was out there building her impressive legend.

The Arcane Council's male members such as Flax, Yahk, and Phlunt are either corrupt or bumbling antagonistic comic reliefs (in early S4Ep2 drafts it appears that Phlunt was intended to be revealed as some Inquest higher-up all along, turning the lovable jerk into a hidden villain to remove him from the board) while the female Ludo and Zudo are apparently subservient to Flax in his villainous schemes, and Haia is an actually clever mastermind to rival even Flax.

From the charr leaders, Bangar and Gaheron turned out to be rotten eggs, and they were replaced by the commanding and diverse female Crecia and the soft male Efram. Even the progressive old dog Smodur needed the younger female Mia Kindleshot to convince him to sign the Ebonhawke Treaty lorewise, and he ultimately went bonkers during the Icebrood War due to many reasons (one of which I hope the devs will reveal to be Jormag's subtle mental manipulations of Smodur to ensure Ryland's defection to Jormag since I can't see Jormag leaving something important as that to chance) and was put down to be replaced by Mia who's essentially described as female Smodur except less prone to war antics. Malice, the sole remaining original imperator (for now) was revealed to be the true mastermind behind the Ebonhawke Treaty as she, Almorra, and Jennah essentially conspired to make it happen as revealed in Ghosts of Ascalon although Malice never brought it up during the Drizzlewood conflict and let Smodur take all the glory for it. Malice even complained how annoyed she was at dealing with Bangar and Smodur's "crap" all the time, painting them both as backwards coots who should've been replaced ages ago.

In Lion's Arch the male Captain Magnus was written as a rather shortsighted and gullible buffoon in the latter half of Season 1, ultimately being unable to convince the council to fortify LA for the attack to come that cost them dearly. The female Ellen Kiel was the only one figuring out Scarlet's master plan out of the council, but her sage advice was not heeded. Meanwhile her political rival, the male Evon, was written as a caricature "villain" (even if, amusingly enough, Evon's campaign video paints Evon as far more competent than Ellen's Evon-slandering video does). Out of the order leaders, the male Gixx is often paired off comedy-wise with the goofy Sieran and has to play straight man to her antics. Meanwhile, both the female order leaders Almorra and Riel are written seriously; even Almorra's few moments of levity don't come off as forced comedy but mainly show her very sarcastic side.

As far as the major core villains go, we notice that Sons of Svanir and Flame Legion are misogynists who either ridicule women and/or abuse them (e.g. Flame Legion breeding farms that traumatized Salina Scorchstep who lost her name, identity and sense of time because of constant abuse). Meanwhile there's no counter faction of women embracing misandry and enslaving men yet. Caudecus tries to be a mastermind in his backstory but comes off as a buffoon in his on screen appearances with suggested repressed closet gay/bisexual feelings for Logan. He even has this odd fetish with having mostly female White Mantle lieutenants, all of whose names start with A. Gaheron is a one-note leader of a cult of personality who enslaves women and desires godhood. Kudu is revealed to be a successful womanizer who has abused and seduced his female lieutenants with sweet words of poison. Fraenir, who only becomes a thing later in the saga, is likewise shown to be a one-note religious fanatic. Meanwhile, the female Firstborn Faolain overthrew the Nightmare Court's original Secondborn male leader Cadeyrn, thus negating that whole jealousy angle of the court where Cadeyrn wanted to be seen as being above the Firstborn and make his mother listen to him; Cadeyrn is reduced to a one-note side boss in a dungeon who is subservient to Faolain and cast aside, while  Edge of Destiny initially suggested that Faolain might be the only villain with a potential for redemption. Even when Faolain became irredeemable by HoT time, she was ultimately enslaved by the male dragon Mordremoth in a fit of irony, turning her into a tragic victim of circumstance after her previous rebellion against authority.

Among the gods, Balthazar had to go as the toxic warmongering man, while the progressive deities are all women. Based on ANet artist notes I found on ArtStation, it appears that the writers had potentially considered Grenth as another villain candidate in early PoF drafts, so yet another male deity could've bitten the dust. And then there are, of course, Abaddon and Dhuum, both toxic men.

In Elona the Primeval Kings really started with the female Queen Nadijeh who first founded the Sunspears. It was during the male King Wasi's rule that more wars broke out in the desert. Meanwhile, the last female rulers Dahlah and Nahlah were led astray by some councillor/vizier and I wouldn't be surprised if that advisor turned out to be an evil man. In Elona's defense, Spearmarshal Zaeim and Redeemer Kossan are competent men who balance out women such as Boticca and Zafirah; sadly we get little info on the Master of Shadows to find out what kind of a person he might be. Out of Joko's three marshals, the male Olori Ogun is ridiculed by both the Commander and his fellow female marshals, while the female marshals Oluwa Eranko and Osa Ekolo are shown as scarily competent commanders worth their title. Grand Vizier Utumishi is shown to be a servile and cowardly weasel whom the Free Awakened leader Sianna keeps ridiculing all the time, and Archon Iberu is downright psychotic with only a sliver of redeeming qualities during his brief aside in the Jahai summit until Aurene's intervention makes him embrace villainy again. Joko is the only major bisexual character in GW2 so far and unfortunately he embraces the "depraved bisexual" trope; it's unclear if Caudecus should also be considered bisexual or if he's just closet gay based on his implied lust for Logan despite getting into a political marriage with Lady Wi's cousin. I hope we'll see a more positive representation of a bisexual character in the future without painting them with tired villain tropes.

Recently in Cantha we've seen several powerful women vs. comic relief or downright villainous men. Empress Ihn is just as progressive as her great grandma Haebaragi (who dissolved the corrupt Celestial Ministry and defeated the evil Ministry of Purity while forging peace with tengu) as she understands that change is inevitable and necessary for Cantha's survival, while Ihn's dad Taejeong is described as xenophobic, retaliating and dismissive (if statements from Li, Joon, and Ihn are to be believed). We know very little about Taejeong and even less about Ihn's unnamed grandfather (Haebaragi's son whom Navan first revealed her true identity to) whose name may potentially be the enigmatic Seung-Gi (who has a landmark named after him in New Kaineng unless that's meant to refer to some minister given the location). Only Ihn and Haebaragi have confirmed monuments out of the modern Canthan rulers in New Kaineng while the unnamed grandfather and more curiously Taejeong have none as far as I can see. Why the preference over the rare female monarchs (Haebaragi and Ihn are the only confirmed empresses regnant ever in Canthan history) over male emperors in modern Canthan reverence? Did Ihn remove her traditionalist dad's monuments after his passing, or was Taejeong somehow so humble that no major landmark was ever named after him? Unlike Emperor Kintah who had been fond of his concubine Yuki and their son Togo and had let them enjoy the privileges of palace life alongside his wife and "legitimate" son Prince Kisu in GW1, Taejeong did not extend the same generosity to his extramarital affair Dal-Rae and Joon for unknown reasons, which made Joon incredibly bitter and caused friction between Joon and Ihn and why Joon felt she needed to rise above her half-sister whenever she could.

As mentioned earlier in the thread by others, the male Li and the female Joon's handling is rather different; the bad older guy gets ridiculed at every turn while the female Joon is sympathized with even when she, too, commits questionable if downright horrible acts during the story and as revealed in some of her backstory in ambient map dialogue and in the journals found throughout the maps. Rama is written as a comic relief even at times when he shouldn't be (the Void battle and him commenting on the Commander's new look was unneeded given how destruction of reality was imminent; at least he was briefly serious when he learned the truth about Li, which I appreciated). Rama chooses not to pursue the career as a minister despite Li grooming him for it, so the more competent woman Cho Min becomes the acting minister instead. Even Captain Fa Yang, who is shown to be competent, is written off as the "straight man" archetype of comic relief when set against the competent female DE lane commanders Caithe and Navan who override his decision much to his confusion in the early meta dialogue. Navan and Caithe don't joke around during their lanes while Fa has to handle banter with his rival Chul-Moo. On the dragon side the male Albax is written as being grieving and almost cowardly (albeit for understandable reasons) while it's the female Kuunavang who was the brave and wise one and whose kindness ultimately helps Albax come out of his shell in a truly heartwarming moment.

As far as other antagonistic Canthan factions go, we also see curious writing preferences. The male Chul-Moo is charismatic but he's also revealed to be a momma's boy under his influential mom Matron Park's thumb (as revealed by the amusing dialogue between him and his lieutenant who delivers him the mom's "ultimatum" that embarrasses Chul-Moo in the Jade Brotherhood base). Even when he becomes our ally, he becomes a jokesmith who frustrates Fa to no end in Dragon's End. Meanwhile the female Tetra is written as being scary and competent all the time, and her rapport with Navan (an unlikely but welcome pairing as I enjoy their back and forth!) leads to her comforting Navan when they have to keep killing corrupt saltspray dragons for the good of all.

Even Ankka and Scarlet, the most influential and mostly independent villainesses, ended up being shackled to males: Scarlet was abused and enslaved by the male Mordremoth, and Ankka's journals revealed that her start of darkness was partly influenced by Gorrik remaining oblivious to her affections, which made her bitter.

As for the Elder Dragons, it turns out that the female dragons of the bloodline (Soo-Won, Glint, and Aurene) are pure benevolent motherly figures who only want what's best for Tyria even if tragedy follows them. Meanwhile the male dragons Primordus, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, and Mordremoth are basically pure evil with Kralk's sole redeeming trait as a dragon supremacist being his love for his family. Curiously the only non-binary dragon Jormag is shown to arguably be the most evil of all Elder Dragons from the get go with the way they tattle on Zhaitan's fascinations to mommy and how they ultimately ree their toxic male brother Primordus to death (as confirmed by the order we fight the Void dragon manifestations in that are in reverse order of their deaths, so Primordus died before Jormag in Dragonstorm). I find it curious how the only major nonbinary Jormag is presented as arguably the most villainous of the bunch based on Mother's Lament dialogues, while Zhou Yao, the other major-ish non-binary character with potential, was merely bait and switch in EoD story and was reduced to a side character who accomplished even less than Captains Fa and Min despite heavy promotion in advertisements; Yao didn't even participate in the final battle where almost everyone else with combat capability was present but at least they contributed to it a bit off screen.

Regarding Kasmeer and Marjory's relationship, devs have revealed that initially Marjory was meant to be a guy but VA availability forced them to rewrite her and Ellen Kiel as men. Given how Season 1 original ending was meant to show "Marjory" dying, it seems that the writers intended to use a subversive trope where Kasmeer (the apparent bimbo damsel in distress) is not endangered as one would expect and actually grows more confident and heroic after witnessing her more experienced male mentor/love interest's death at the hands of the villain Scarlet as she avenges her love's demise.

This list is simply scratching the surface, and I could find even more examples from the storylines. Thankfully it's not completely one sided as there are occasional competent men here and there from obscure characters to more notable ones, but the bias, whether intentional or not on the many writers' part, is clear. I like that GW2 has many strong heroines and villainesses and that we have many women in power in the world of Tyria (I for one can't wait for Jennah and Ihn's long-awaited meeting as I imagine they'll have lots of chemistry based on what we've seen of them individually, and hopefully we'll get to see Navan and Anise interact one day too!). However, it seems that the writers, in their effort to adjust the balance to include more influential and competent women in the narrative over the years, have gone a bit too far in one direction and painting many males of various races in a confusing, comical or downright antagonistic light as a result when compared to the women. I hope they'll adjust the balance as they move onward and offer us independent villainesses not shackled to male entities or feelings related to them (perhaps even a faction of man-hating or man-enslaving villainesses as a counter to Svanir and Flame Legion or just powerful female rulers leading an invasion of Tyria, Elona, and Cantha from Sunrise Crest or wherever?) as well as more balanced writing for men so we'll get more nuanced male antagonists like the relatable villain Gavin was in the sylvari White Stag storyline. 🙂

Edited April 17, 2022 by Kossage.9072

[Kalavier.1097]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:36 AM, Kossage.9072 said:

 Caudecus tries to be a mastermind in his backstory but comes off as a buffoon in his on screen appearances with suggested repressed closet gay/bisexual feelings for Logan. He even has this odd fetish with having mostly female White Mantle lieutenants, all of whose names start with A.

 

we'll get more nuanced male antagonists like the relatable villain Gavin was in the sylvari White Stag storyline. 🙂

 

While you went into great detail, I'll still say this. "Just because there is more female characters then male, doesn't mean there is some sort of agenda or conspiracy to say that all men suck or are evil. Not when the devs or story don't even touch into that.

 

As for these two lines in particular.

 

Caudecus was never a buffoon, at the end he was desperate. He manipulated the nation and events for a long time, causing all sorts of chaos UNTIL he made a play to try to take out Jennah at his manor. However, during that event it failed. He would've gotten away with it (Zero evidence he was actually involved in the attempt by the bandits) even with Logan accusing him, because of ^ no evidence. But Jennah outplayed him in that instance by stating the bandits also talked about/planned to target him as well. By placing him "Under her protection as an honored guest at the palace." she killed his ability to manipulate people or events because he was always being watched then. And he couldn't refuse or be very suspicious. He couldn't also clear his name of "being targeted" because well, the bandit was dead.

After that, he was stuck doing official work in the Ministry, and living a very nice life in the palace with shining blade everywhere. He broke out to get to the White Mantle Army after they got the jade constructs as a huge tide turner, but was foiled by "Lazarus" suddenly appearing and siphoning off half or more of the white mantle. This, combined with Jennah's sudden announcement of shutting down the Ministry for a while during investigations, forced the White Mantle and Caudecus's hand into acting then and there with the hopes of killing her and forcibly seizing power, instead of turning the entire population against Jennah and taking over without a problem.

 

And well, when the assassination attempt failed, and blood legion helped the Seraph (bolstered by the restored Watchknights) push back the remaining white mantle forces, he grew incredibly desperate and made some mistakes. As well as snorting hardcore amounts of bloodstone dust and eating bloodstone rocks. So he wasn't a buffoon idiot, but grew to be desperate and trying to regain ground on failing plans. As for the White Mantle female lieutenants... I don't follow?  Yeah there are three Justicars with names starting in A but that is hardly a Fetish or anything else besides coincidence.

 

As for Gavin, I wouldn't perhaps call him relatable. His mindset was "If you can't be recruited/if you don't join me, then your only worth is as prey to be killed." He planned to drag off the white stag to torture and brutalize it until it lost everything from pain and rage.

 

He's certainly interesting, perhaps more so then a massive chunk of the other Courtiers but his mindset/goals is still entirely based around "Causing the most pain and suffering possibly to completely demolish the morality/dream of the Sylvari."

[ugrakarma.9416]

On 4/13/2022 at 6:07 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

 

People keep forgetting that A: Braham doesn't have any sort of real diplomatic training (hell, he went from NEVER leaving his home, a point his crush uses to smash down his advances, to exploring the world with the Commander instantly).

I played the re-release LS1, well thats explains lots a thing about ppl hating braham. only LS1 is made more clear he is very young, and he is very "naive" about adult world problems.

For those like me who jumped on lore missing LS1 what all we see is big man, with a adult male voice misbehaving like a child.

Edited April 25, 2022 by ugrakarma.9416

[Kalavier.1097]

7 hours ago, ugrakarma.9416 said:

I played the re-release LS1, well thats explains lots a thing about ppl hating braham. only LS1 is made more clear he is very young, and he is very "naive" about adult world problems.

For those like me who jumped on lore missing LS1 what all we see is big man, with a adult male voice misbehaving like a child.

He's 17 in LS1, for clarification. So by the time of IBS, he's 23. He's not really that old.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[TheOrlyFactor.8341]

On 4/12/2022 at 6:27 PM, Ashantara.8731 said:

...and that's where I stopped reading. 😉

Rytlock isn't handsome or whatever you consider "manly." He's a grumpy whiner, a shameful excuse for a grown-up. No matter what they tried to make him look cool, he's just a big, whiney baby, which is the complete opposite of attractive.

He has nothing in common with Rama, who has a sense of humor and behaves rationally.

 

This is the correct answer.

[maxwelgm.4315]

I am ready for the Gritlock Rimstone vs Detective Ram-a romance book

[Kuma.1503]

On 4/9/2022 at 10:26 AM, Telgum.6071 said:

GW2 story is a walking cliche from the very personal story, starting by Tybalt, your average insecure and "Not so good at his job" guy who ends being your best friend and finishing with Soo-Won, the lonely mother taking the most weird possible decisions and sacrificing herself.

Speaking about dragons and the differences between male and female characters, it's still the same.

Male dragons = Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Primordus, Kralkatorrik = Dumb and/or Evil

Female dragons = Jormag (them 😅), Glint, Aurene, Soo-Won = Smart and/or Good

Hey @Bobby Stein.3612, I'm starting to see a patern.

Don't count out Vlast!

I know it's easy to forget him because he was on screen for approximately 0.1 seconds before kicking the bucket, but protects Elona and saves the commander's life!

In all seriousness, this is one instance where the story felt rushed. I would have liked to see interactions between Aurene and her brother, have a chance to develop more understanding of the character before he gets axed on screen. You get some of that in his memory crystals, but it all felt limp and he came across as less of a character and more of a plot device. 

 

Edited May 13, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Telgum.6071]

5 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Don't count out Vlast!

I know it's easy to forget him because he was on screen for approximately 0.1 seconds before kicking the bucket, but protects Elona and saves the commander's life!

In all seriousness, this is one instance where the story felt rushed. I would have liked to see interactions between Aurene and her brother, have a chance to develop more understanding of the character before he gets axed on screen. You get some of that in his memory crystals, but it all felt limp and he came across as less of a character and more of a plot device. 

 

I'm surprised Vlast was a male tbh.