Alternative path for PVE Legendary Armor

[ArchonWing.9480]

 

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

And here we go with the "Raiders are toxic, casuals are saints" claim again, numberrrrr.. I lost count.

Here, let's put a new legendary set behind a CM version of Dragon's End. It should definitely be a safe haven from those toxic raiders.

People being toxic has nothing to do with preferred content. People got toxic over killing champions on Queensdale in the wrong order so badly it even had to be removed, and to this day have heart attacks over Dragonfall and Tarir being done slightly less than optimal.

At the end of the day, we can talk about skill or fun, but proper social skills gets one far in an MMO more than any of those things and it probably should.

Edited April 16, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[VirjDixxx.5748]

I love that most of this thread is just full of bs and players that dont want to do anything other then spam 1 in a World Boss. 

[Alcatraznc.3869]

3 hours ago, Cuks.8241 said:

The primary purpose of a legendary armour (epsecially the PVE one) is not  its QOL functions, its not a reward to get players to play raids. Thats just small part of it but not the primary purpose why Anet implemented it.

 

Speak for yourself. My main goal for getting a legendary is exactly for its QoL function. People dont know how comfortable and handy it is having to switch stats on a single piece of armour instead of crafting them. They dont know all of that until they get their hands on one piece of legendary equipement.

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Albi.7250 said:

Long personal reason why hard content is hard.

 

Demanding more free legendarys. Ending with a thinly veiled character attack on the opposing side.

Vision and aurora were hardly free. Anyone who thinks so hasn't made them.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Ok, thanks for explanation. You can do it slowly, instead of rushing clears every week. In addition to that, you can spread the pieces between the modes in order to not feel like you're somehow grinding one thing all the time, but instead actually play different modes that include varying gameplay patterns. Or then again -you don't really need to. As already said multiple times, this is an optional reward, you're perfectly fine playing without it, so your choice clearly remains being your choice. I stil don't see the problem with you making any decision you want to make there.

Nothing I wrote suggests anything about it somehow being "a threat to me", so instead of trying to turn it into something it's not, you'd maybe do better responding to what I keep writing (including in the post you've just quoted) without putting this weird, rather personally charged, spin on it.

 

btw. out of curiosity, can you clarify how many pieces of legendary armor you currently have? Since counting the fact you've specifically played pvp for it, played raids "on and off", including some more recent -and regular- weekly encounters, as well as having 1,2k+ rank in wvw (absolutely correct me if anything I wrote here is somehow untrue and you didn't write all of this in this thread -your responses to me here are specifically what I'm basing all of it on)... It seems you should be pretty far down the road in regards of the leggy armor pieces?

I have 3 pieces of legendary armor, but getting the PvP ones almost caused me to leave the game.  It's not fun for me. Neither is raiding.

I have a light chest, medium chest and medium leggings.

[Linken.6345]

18 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I have 3 pieces of legendary armor, but getting the PvP ones almost caused me to leave the game.  It's not fun for me. Neither is raiding.

I have a light chest, medium chest and medium leggings.

Then go into wvw and make the rest?

[Haishao.6851]

3 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Then go into wvw and make the rest?

 

Problem with doing legendary in WvW is you fall asleep AFKing between camp flips and you get kicked out of the game for inactivity.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

48 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Hey, instead of trying to nitpick from the response to the ""argument"" I never made (which was the post I was responding to), feel free to grab my broader stance on it (for example the one that poster quoted and ignored as well) and comment accordingly. If you don't want to look for it, I can quote it for you. But if all you're interested in are these weird [/sarcasm] provocations, then good luck with that.

I'm not nitpicking. You're the one that was insisting that something being better for a group that constitutes huge majority of this game's population is somehow bad.

48 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"adding more of them"? Players that don't want to play more of the game's content already have their longterm goal cut into smaller spieces, which means more frequent gratification. Specifically, it's working on multiple ex/asc sets.

Working on multiple ascended sets is hardly a longterm goal anyone in that group ever considers. Even more so with exotics. Sure, OW players will continue to be gearing up when possible, but they will never actively think of treating it as a goal they should work towards. It will not be something that will keep them playing.  Legendaries however are a different matter. And not just for QoL they provide.

Players were just generally conditioned to consider anything "legendary" to be that kind of goal, and will be thinking about it even if they do not really need it. As long as it's something they can actively pursue, that is - and again, for majority of players legendary armor currently is not in that category, because it's hidden behind content most players will never consider.

48 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

But you want to remove that

You can't remove something that was never present.

48 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

by giving better reward for something they're already doing anyways, without playing more of the game's content.

No. By offering them an open door to the path where they can be pursuing that (remember, for OW players most of that effort will revolve around the cost and timegating of the set, and especially that first part will always be an issue that will put that goal in the very far off future).

Notice, btw, that your argument about "removing goals" by offering a legendary armor in place of ascended ones works even better against raiders. If anything, if we were to treat it seriously, it would mean the legendary armor in raids (the content where players will be most interested in constant regearing) is removing that specific longterm goal far more than anywhere else. And to follow  through that conclusion to its logical end, legendary gear should not exist at all because it (the epitome of longterm goals) apparently only removes longterm goals from everyone. Which is quite ridiculous, actually.

 

[Labjax.2465]

44 minutes ago, Alcatraznc.3869 said:

 

Speak for yourself. My main goal for getting a legendary is exactly for its QoL function. People dont know how comfortable and handy it is having to switch stats on a single piece of armour instead of crafting them. They dont know all of that until they get their hands on one piece of legendary equipement.

 

 

And to add to this point, I think it's safe to figure a not-insignificant number of new or returning players are going to be introduced to the legendary armory through the amulet, as it's something you'll do a lot of just from playing the story for the first time. And the clever thing about it, despite it being quite a lot to do if you break it down, the "bookkeeping" is handled for you, compared to most legendaries where you have to get out the wiki, if not a spreadsheet, to keep track of all the convoluted components and how they will come together.

Point being that those people are going to be all the more dismayed when they realize how daunting the "normal" process for a legendary is and will have gotten a taste for the convenience from the amulet. Hooking people into the system on the amulet is clever, I think, but also flawed if it's going to rope people into a system that is considered to be a "work on these for the next 10 years in game modes you don't want to play" set of goals. I don't know if the philosophy is supposed to be that you take a really long time, but the amulet definitely feels shorter and easier compared to most legendaries, IME. So it's setting the expectations in a misfit place.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Vision and aurora were hardly free. Anyone who thinks so hasn't made them.

Based on how this term has been used thus far "free" is nothing but a buzzword stand-in for "undefined amount of X which I deem to be too low", it doesn't mean anything beyond that.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Tails.9372

[Vayne.8563]

14 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Then go into wvw and make the rest?

When you pay for my games, you can tell me how to have fun in them. k thanks.

[Vayne.8563]

7 minutes ago, Haishao.6851 said:

 

Problem with doing legendary in WvW is you fall asleep AFKing between camp flips and you get kicked out of the game for inactivity.

 

Nah if I play WvW, I play it.  The trick is not to just go in to grind them armor, but got involved in the actual game play.  It can be fun, it's simply not sustainable for me for a number of reasons.

[Labjax.2465]

1 minute ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Nah if I play WvW, I play it.  The trick is not to just go in to grind them armor, but got involved in the actual game play.  It can be fun, it's simply not sustainable for me for a number of reasons.

Idk if my reasons are at all the same as yours, but I'm the same way with WvW. If I'm going to play it, I'm going to take it seriously, but I have a hard time getting into it for long periods of time. For me, a lot of it comes down to zerg vs. zerg being what a lot of people considering "fun" in WvW and I just find it kind of dull and tiring (run forward, run back, run sideways, etc.), so I'll go in hoping for a group that's doing objectives and they are just looking for fights. I've had the most fun when there's a decent matchup trying to strategically take an objective and whether we succeed or not, that challenge is interesting to me. But it's a roll of the dice whether I find that at any given time I go in there.

[Labjax.2465]

5 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

People that "don't carry their weight in open world" don't do it "because they don't have stat-changable leggy gear", not sure why some people try to pretend that this is the issue for anything there? Please explain.

This game has its strengths, but gear stats are not one of them, at least not at this point. I've played gear treadmill games where gearing up in a cycle was relatively straightforward, but here (in a game where it's touted as not having a gear treadmill) there is one of any number of processes, ranging from simple to convoluted, maybe bypassable by gold to get a particular set of gear for a recommended build and god help you if you picked a guide that is a misfit for what you were wanting to do, or a balance patch destroys the build you were working on gear for.

If it's a struggle to get in the right gear to play optimally, people are going to have a harder time playing optimally and stat-swappable armor you never have to get again skips all of the convoluted pain of this game's gear stat system.

Is the best solution there to make it more feasible to get stat-swappable armor, maybe, maybe not, but if open world is supposed to be challenging, if content like strikes is supposed to get raid/dungeon-like content to a wider audience, then something needs to be done about the gearing process.

[Dante.1508]

On 4/16/2022 at 8:34 AM, Vilin.8056 said:

Except that it is not a good addition.

There are already several multi hundred post debates about this a year ago that most of the past debate participants don't bother to bring it up again.

In short, GW2 isn't a gearscore game. The QoL benefit of legendary armor are made for players who participates competitive modes that require constantly modifying their entire accounts of gears every balance patch. This also applies to PvP(who build their PvE according to their pvp stats), WvW, and Raid.

In the sense of OW, where the majority of casual players made their income from selling mats based from acended crafting, making the armor available effectively kills their sell value only at the benefit of a minority of rich players who has already accumulated a lot of gold.

Instead of introducing a premium armor that simply infuriate a community of players that only play single build, Anet's precious development resource are better spent elsewhere, if not by narrowing the skill gap.

It became a gear score game once ascended was added.

[Vayne.8563]

54 minutes ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Idk if my reasons are at all the same as yours, but I'm the same way with WvW. If I'm going to play it, I'm going to take it seriously, but I have a hard time getting into it for long periods of time. For me, a lot of it comes down to zerg vs. zerg being what a lot of people considering "fun" in WvW and I just find it kind of dull and tiring (run forward, run back, run sideways, etc.), so I'll go in hoping for a group that's doing objectives and they are just looking for fights. I've had the most fun when there's a decent matchup trying to strategically take an objective and whether we succeed or not, that challenge is interesting to me. But it's a roll of the dice whether I find that at any given time I go in there.

I'm a full time carer for a disabled person and I have my own medical issues as well. I can't always just sit and play without interuption. It makes doing certain content more difficult.  Yes I could join a zerg but if I have to get up and walk away suddenly I have to die where I am or port and run back.  If it's a day when my bursitis is acting up I can't do hours anyway.

 

At the end of the day, PvP was more doable to me ,because it was in 10 minute increments. Do it for half an hour and stop for the day sort of thing. WvW is just too intense for too long for me to make that a good way for me to get legendary armor.

[Labjax.2465]

42 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm a full time carer for a disabled person and I have my own medical issues as well. I can't always just sit and play without interuption. It makes doing certain content more difficult.  Yes I could join a zerg but if I have to get up and walk away suddenly I have to die where I am or port and run back.  If it's a day when my bursitis is acting up I can't do hours anyway.

 

At the end of the day, PvP was more doable to me ,because it was in 10 minute increments. Do it for half an hour and stop for the day sort of thing. WvW is just too intense for too long for me to make that a good way for me to get legendary armor.

Sorry you gotta deal with that and work around it. Makes me wonder how many people don't do WvW because of the whole "you gotta keep up" aspect of it and for so long at a time. It always struck me as odd that aspect of it. Was worse back in the day with EotM trains that were always on the move, I think. I find it's not as bad as that now, but nevertheless it's still big maps with zergs on the move and you can take a long time to reach a zerg (or even just an objective if doing it solo) only to get obliterated, or get to them in time for them to wipe or waypoint, etc. And yeah, if you aren't constantly at the keyboard, you get left behind so easily. I've seen a few times with a comm who takes five minutes breaks and such, but other than that, most people are just go go go in there.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Labjax.2465

[ArchonWing.9480]

You don't have to follow a commander unless you're insistent on fighting on enemy zerg.

Though it probably helps if you have 1-3 extra friends guildmates, so you can take targets reasonably fast.

Of course it's generally more efficient with an organized zerg, but you're also at their mercy so if they want to idle around or set up drawn out sieges, or running to points as fast as possible,  you may find it unplayable.

[Ryuk.6840]

8 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You don't "create those players" by just handing them gear/rewards. You "create them" by giving them a nudge/reason to play harder content, so they can improve their understanding of the game and subsequentially improve themselves. "More efficient" players don't somehow magically spawn out of nowhere and aren't "suddenly better because they got rewards". Handing out stat change doesn't change anything about them improving.

Even moreso, players willing to swap builds "on the fly" (considering the ones you've listed: "to healer/dps/and any combinations of Alacrity-Quickness") don't do it for themselves specifically, but in order to passively improve the performance of -also; not exclusively- weaker players. If someone can't be bothered with having a coherent build and at least one set of gear (to "pull their weight in ow", which reasonably puts that gear in the "exotic" area), it seems naive to try and use an argument that those players would suddenly "bother improving" more if they were handed rewards anyways.

I don't know what are you even trying to build this claim on? "I'm not bothered to have a coherent build with as much as exotic berk gear, but I'll gladly look up a build and follow a specific rotation to keep up buffs on 4 other people"? I mean... if those players are willing to do it, they can easly already do it now. How does a stat changable equipment somehow specifically stand in their way?

Giving more tools to a person , it increases that person's ability to help their fellow teammates .

Just like as you said , some can spec to healers , and some in the Boon department . That creates the Dynamic of co-up in the OW , where you try to over-cover the weakness of your teammates  .

Essentially the OW area , will be the learning ground for experimentation and learn more about your character in a more "easy environment" , rather that funneling yourself in the more "hardcore" and hitting a wall .

 

As far as coherent builds goes, they can simply use  the ones the Metabattle  site .

 

Edited April 17, 2022 by Ryuk.6840

[Vayne.8563]

2 hours ago, Labjax.2465 said:

Sorry you gotta deal with that and work around it. Makes me wonder how many people don't do WvW because of the whole "you gotta keep up" aspect of it and for so long at a time. It always struck me as odd that aspect of it. Was worse back in the day with EotM trains that were always on the move, I think. I find it's not as bad as that now, but nevertheless it's still big maps with zergs on the move and you can take a long time to reach a zerg (or even just an objective if doing it solo) only to get obliterated, or get to them in time for them to wipe or waypoint, etc. And yeah, if you aren't constantly at the keyboard, you get left behind so easily. I've seen a few times with a comm who takes five minutes breaks and such, but other than that, most people are just go go go in there.

Thanks. The worse part is that I love WvW and when I can do it it, I have fun. I just can't do it enough to make it worth getting a legendary. It would take me five years.

[DaFishBob.6518]

This is going to be completely ignored and run over by the rest of the conversation but for real I wish there was a solo mode of the raids. Instead of fishing and skiffs EoD should have gotten a mastery to command NPCs in certain situations like raids to fulfill mechanics that otherwise make the raids impossible to solo. Then I can waste my own time practicing raids instead of trying to corral 9 other people to waste our collective time with.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

10 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sorry, but you are clearly trying to draw a narrative here to specifically talk about leggy acquisition as well, since that's what the previous thread was also about.

 

wow, you just won't give up on this tangent!  AND you keep putting words in my mouth! i'll spell it out to you...

1) people in OW want to get Legendary armor without raiding.

2) raiders are opposed it

3) i am not opposed to it, because

a)i interpret that OWers view OW as a different game mode than raids, fractals, and strikes AND

b)Anet has told us on many occasions that they want us to experiment with different builds (which includes armor) AND

c)(EDIT:) Anet caved and gave PvPers the ability to acquire PvE armor from PvP

4) saying "PvI" is more specific than saying "PvE", and is less confusing, and is a communication issue, having nothing to do with my opinion on where Legendary armor is available

Disclaimer: i obtained legendary armor from WvW, and i still don't oppose there being a new way to obtain it in OW.

saying i don't oppose it is basically saying "i don't care if it's available there." and apparabtly, you can't let that go. it's like you're angry about me having an indifferent attitude about something that you're vehemently opposed to. i don't know why you keep arguing with me about what i observe. and i observe that raiders and open-worlders don't communicate which specific content they're referring to until pressed about deep it into the thread.

i push the phrase  "PvI" because of what i interpret. i push it because it's the easiest words to describe the disparity i see between raiders compared to open worlders. NOT because of legendary armor. i don't care where it's available. and you obviously don't care what i think. you don't even appear to care what the open worlders think. and you keep ignoring this concept of splitting the game modes. you seem to care more about it than you care about preventing open-worlders from obtaining optional gear that is also optional for raiders and WvWers and sPvPers. 

dungeons are instances, yes. but i perceive the general population (based on what i've read on the forums) to have given up on them and no longer care about them.

PvE has generally meant "players versus environment" because it doesn't involve "players versus players" and was coined to signify the lack of "players vs players", but it's not techically true... it's "players versus NPCs" becaue the environment doesn't fight them, only the NPCs do. and therefore, yes, it's true that instanced content is "PvE"... BUT, it's a different playstyle than fighting open world bosses and all the other content classifications. and raiders constantly remind the playerbase of this with comments like "you need to use BiS gear, BiS skill rotations," etc...

i push "PvI" to avoid confusion among people during these discussions, and the most common place for this misunderstanding of whether people are talking about OW or Raids, Strikes, Fractals happens to be in legendary armor threads. and it's partly because raiders only say "PvE" when "PvE" is such a general term that includes open world exploration (IE map completion), open world meta events, open world mini-dungeons, open world bosses, open world jumping puzzles, festivals, story journal (both open world and instances), raids, strikes, fractals, dungeons. That's 11 different content categories... And you know something? when someone talks about jumping puzzles, they say "jumping puzzles" instead of saying "PvE", but raiders don't say "raiding", they say "PvE" or "endgame." Which saying "endgame" is just as vague as saying "PvE" because WvW and sPvP are considered by many to be "endgame"

i push the phrase "PvI" because i was tought in school to be "more specific"... and "PvI" is more specific than "PvE" when it comes to talking about raids, strikes, fractals. (even though "raids", "strikes" and "fractals" is even more specific and imo, more specific is better. it's a matter of communication.

but i guess you would rather people be confused when arguing about this stuff, so nobody gets anywhere and Anet takes away something that you would like instead of giving something to someone else that they'd like, because everybody is confused. i say this because you are apparently opposed to me wanting people to be more specific in order to avoid confusion.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Forgotten Legend.9281
Added reason c, and Open world bosses, and reason 4

[Fuchslein.8639]

2 hours ago, DaFishBob.6518 said:

This is going to be completely ignored and run over by the rest of the conversation but for real I wish there was a solo mode of the raids. Instead of fishing and skiffs EoD should have gotten a mastery to command NPCs in certain situations like raids to fulfill mechanics that otherwise make the raids impossible to solo. Then I can waste my own time practicing raids instead of trying to corral 9 other people to waste our collective time with.

Yeah, i wish instead of Strikes they had wokred on dificult-modes for Raids. I wonder if raids would attract more people when they would be designed like Fractals. Because most Raids are not that more dificult than T4 Fractals. Quite the opposite for me personally. Most Fractals are more dificult for me, because of the effect-clutter and the instabilitys who, for whatever reason, often work against teamwork. And Sunqua CM is Hell for me, i got headaches from the lightshow ...

Compared to this, raids are easy and chill(even most cm's in raids just add a ring of dmg, or other super easy stuff which should not really called cm). But in Fractals you can work your'e way up and learn the Mechanics and at the same time you get a small reward for your effort.
Raids just throw you in and Anet hopes for the Community to spread their arms and take all these new players under their care ....

I also wouldn't mind a Solo-play(or small group) where people with insecuritys can have their first steps and see without people interfering. I myself would have loved such an mode. Heck, i myself WOULD love such a mode right now. This way i could show my best friend all the raids i know, whitout her worrying that she makes to much mistakes and hinders the group.

Edited April 17, 2022 by Fuchslein.8639

[Cuks.8241]

9 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

Obviously it's better for everyone if legendary armour is more common, certainly through a different avenue and with a different style.
Is your point just that you don't think there would be a greater level of player satisfaction if Legendary armour was more common and "accessible"? 

Well I am not sure there would be. Players that complain would just find something else to complain. 

Legendary doesnt change the content you play, doesnt give access to more content.

The only thing it changes is you dont need to look for gear in that slot anymore. Its basicaly game  over for horizontal gearing progression.

I dont think it would do much for satisfaction. It would kill a decent chunk of player activity. 

And if you dont change builds often it pretty much does nothing. 

[Cuks.8241]

9 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

Obviously it's better for everyone if legendary armour is more common, certainly through a different avenue and with a different style.
Is your point just that you don't think there would be a greater level of player satisfaction if Legendary armour was more common and "accessible"? 

Well I am not sure there would be. Players that complain would just find something else to complain. 

Legendary doesnt change the content you play, doesnt give access to more content.

The only thing it changes is you dont need to look for gear in that slot anymore. Its basicaly game  over for horizontal gearing progression.

I dont think it would do much for satisfaction. It would kill a decent chunk of player activity. 

And if you dont change builds often it pretty much does nothing.