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Adding super rare infusions isn't really buffing rewards...


Will.9785

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So with the latest studio update, ANET said they will add a super rare Void Infusion to the drop table for completing the Dragon's End meta.

That's nice and all, but how is adding a drop to the loot table that is so rare that you will likely never get it buffing the rewards exactly?

It may as well not even drop and will do little to motivate people to do the meta.  The smart players will just farm gold outside of DE and buy it off the TP or trade with someone on /r/GW2Exchange.  Why waste your time spending 2 hours on a map that still has a 40% chance at failure for an infintesimal chance at an infusion you know you will never get?

You need to actually buff the rewards.  Again, the meta requires a 2 hour commitment and has a 40% chance at failure.  The rewards need to be mega buffed and it needs to be tangible.  Even if the meta was 100% guaranteed to succeed the rewards are still terrible given the time commitment required.

It doesn't even need to be the final chest that gets buffed necessarily.  You could give people a bonus chest with a chunk of ambergris after every 10 events during the prep phase, for example. This way even if the event fails, players don't walk away feeling like they completely wasted their time.

Edited by Will.9785
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Just now, mythical.6315 said:

The meta doesn’t require two hours to complete. The entire preparation phase can be skipped. That leaves a roughly 45 min meta. 

Except it does if you want to get into a decent/organized map that might have a chance to actually complete it.

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People have been asking for an infusion, because even if it's rare people will do the meta for it apparently.

1 minute ago, Will.9785 said:

Except it does if you want to get into a decent/organized map that might have a chance to actually complete it.

I got into a squad today at the start of the Crystal charging part, so, 5 minutes before the fight with Soo Won. We did it with more than 5 minutes remaining.

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53 minutes ago, Will.9785 said:

Except it does if you want to get into a decent/organized map that might have a chance to actually complete it.


Then that’s like saying the AB Octovine meta is 20 min because you typically have to join at XX:45 to get a decent group. The same can be applied towards Teq, Gerent, and other metas. I don’t count that part as it’s highly variable and not required by the meta itself in regards to when to form groups. 

Edited by mythical.6315
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3 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

People have been asking for an infusion, because even if it's rare people will do the meta for it apparently.

I got into a squad today at the start of the Crystal charging part, so, 5 minutes before the fight with Soo Won. We did it with more than 5 minutes remaining.

You were extremely lucky then.  That hasn't been my experience at all.  Not even close.

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1 minute ago, Will.9785 said:

You were extremely lucky then.  That hasn't been my experience at all.  Not even close.

Always the "you are lucky" excuse. If I'm so lucky why haven't I gotten any precursors from the Mystic Toilet or Infusions from any of the metas? How is me being extremely lucky restricted to Dragon's End exclusively?

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I agree personally (it's just going to be another baron out of game trading plaything), but unfortunately it works. 

People underestimate how many out there have gambling tendencies, it's why gem conversion skyrockets when BL Keys are on sale, it's part of why many HoT metas are still so alive, it's why Lootboxes in general drive million upon millions in revenue, and why this will drive people to play DE. 

 

Will 99.9% of players ever get the infusion? If it's in line with the others like it, no. Will they try anyway? Yes.

Edited by Asum.4960
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I want unique skins to grind for(that are a very, very long deterministic grind) that I cannot spend gold for(think leystone armor).  You can buy nearly every new EoD skin off the TP without even buying EoD. They failed at rewards and clearly have no idea how to make content rewarding outside gold and 1 in 1 billion drop rate infusions - both things I find widely unrewarding.

The fact that all the new actual cantha themed skins are outfits only and straight to the gem store makes the game feel insanely unrewarding to play. Grinding only for gold 24/7 gets boring, but we've been screaming this into your ears since PoF and you refuse to listen.

It's the standard modern gaming extremist design where you design for one EXTREME (1 in billion drop rate chasers) and the uber casuals who do the comtent once then are done. The majority  in the middle get to eat dirt.

Edited by Kozumi.5816
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I wish they could add an achievement to get these rare infusions while keeping it as a sellable drop.  Example: Complete chak gerent meta 500 times for account bound chak infusion and be repeatable.  Its insane to think you can do this meta everyday since release and not get it.  

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I disagree.

I think for me this is ground breaking rewarding for players like me who loves to farm and grind stuffs until i get it. No you cannot get anything if u do not put time and effort on it.

 

For me i like the reward they put for meta and cannot wait to get world first gw2 void infusion and make you all jealous 🤗

 

Its time to grind void infusion LETS GO 😤😤😤

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1 hour ago, Kozumi.5816 said:

I want unique skins to grind for(that are a very, very long deterministic grind) that I cannot spend gold for(think leystone armor).  You can buy nearly every new EoD skin off the TP without even buying EoD. They failed at rewards and clearly have no idea how to make content rewarding outside gold and 1 in 1 billion drop rate infusions - both things I find widely unrewarding.

 

They did this in HoT and most living world chapters so I have no idea why they stopped doing this.

Edited by Ruisen.9471
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The addition of the Void infusion as a "jackpot" item is a good move, but I think it's only a partial solution. This buff specifically only affects Dragon's End (which, to be fair, DOES need a big shiny to keep it enticing far into the future, otherwise people will stop doing it once they have their Turtles/achieves and just start farming Summoning Stones from the weekly vendor for lazy currencies.) The other EoD metas didn't get touched, and a couple of them (Kaineng and Echovald) have fairly lackluster Hero's Choice chests compared to the others.

I propose three additional changes on top of the ones ANet are adding:

  • Increase the number of Jade Runestones offered by the Kaineng Hero's Choice Chest from 1 to 5.
  • Remove the Jade Runestone choice from the Echovald Hero's Choice Chest and replace it with 1 Lamplighter's Badge.
  • Add 1 Lamplighter's Badge to each of the various Bounty of X chests as a possible Rare drop. Currently most of the Bounty chests offer fairly low value loot, with the chance for a Rare account-bound Jade Bot upgrade (that's worthless if it's not the upgrade you want. ANet ought to consider making them tradable), and a jackpot item of the Jade Throne chair (a decent item, but its price is rapidly slipping because it's been deemed "ugly" by most of the playerbase and thus has low demand).
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To be fair, both on the subreddit and the forums were asking for infusions and confused about the lack of new ones. 

I agree with adding it. It feels like such a natural and obvious fit that I honestly suspect they had it ready last month on release and intentionally held it back. Possibly to deal with the steeply dropping value of new mats. As the rewards right now including the new infusion are probably still worse than the rewards 2 weeks ago when calculating the value of the infusion by the drop chance. 

So it feels both like an obvious step forward while also not being an appropriate buff in rewards to such a long and still failure prone meta

(though at least the still high failure rate too might be fixed by fixing bites again. As reducing bites even just by half would be equivalent to adding ~1:30-2:00 minutes to the clock. At least when I look at my runs. Which might finally be enough to actually put the difficulty into a healthy state considering the most recent tail exposed change that sounded really promising though being undercut by easily quadrupling bites)

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4 minutes ago, Zaxares.5419 said:

The addition of the Void infusion as a "jackpot" item is a good move, but I think it's only a partial solution. This buff specifically only affects Dragon's End (which, to be fair, DOES need a big shiny to keep it enticing far into the future, otherwise people will stop doing it once they have their Turtles/achieves and just start farming Summoning Stones from the weekly vendor for lazy currencies.) The other EoD metas didn't get touched, and a couple of them (Kaineng and Echovald) have fairly lackluster Hero's Choice chests compared to the others.

I propose three additional changes on top of the ones ANet are adding:

  • Increase the number of Jade Runestones offered by the Kaineng Hero's Choice Chest from 1 to 5.
  • Remove the Jade Runestone choice from the Echovald Hero's Choice Chest and replace it with 1 Lamplighter's Badge.
  • Add 1 Lamplighter's Badge to each of the various Bounty of X chests as a possible Rare drop. Currently most of the Bounty chests offer fairly low value loot, with the chance for a Rare account-bound Jade Bot upgrade (that's worthless if it's not the upgrade you want. ANet ought to consider making them tradable), and a jackpot item of the Jade Throne chair (a decent item, but its price is rapidly slipping because it's been deemed "ugly" by most of the playerbase and thus has low demand).

The problem with Runestones is that the value would just drop like a rock. It's already lower than Gemstones used to be. Just increasing mat quantity isn't a solution. I like the idea of lamp badges. Might need quantity tweaks. The fastest way to get it should still be map completion. But an alternative way for people who dislike map completion would still be cool (personally love it, but have empathy with people not enjoying it)

I honestly think a main challenge is that too many items are tradeable while not having an appropriate amount of mat sinks. Really interested to see whether legendary variations will require more of them. But even then I still think it was a bad idea to make all of it tradable. 

DS was a really interesting reward structure. Requiring completion and mats from that map which required account bound mats from all other maps. It's a really smooth and interesting progression path keeping content relevant for a long time where EoD just doesn't have that at this point in time. Making it more optional and offering less reason to do it, even if you want to get EoD rewards. At the moment it's genuinely better to not play EoD to get most EoD mats. Which is a tad silly. 

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36 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

The problem with Runestones is that the value would just drop like a rock. It's already lower than Gemstones used to be. Just increasing mat quantity isn't a solution. I like the idea of lamp badges. Might need quantity tweaks. The fastest way to get it should still be map completion. But an alternative way for people who dislike map completion would still be cool (personally love it, but have empathy with people not enjoying it)

I honestly think a main challenge is that too many items are tradeable while not having an appropriate amount of mat sinks. Really interested to see whether legendary variations will require more of them. But even then I still think it was a bad idea to make all of it tradable. 

DS was a really interesting reward structure. Requiring completion and mats from that map which required account bound mats from all other maps. It's a really smooth and interesting progression path keeping content relevant for a long time where EoD just doesn't have that at this point in time. Making it more optional and offering less reason to do it, even if you want to get EoD rewards. At the moment it's genuinely better to not play EoD to get most EoD mats. Which is a tad silly. 

Yeah. I was trying reaaaaaally hard to think of something else we could replace Jade Runestones with, but I didn't want to double up on Lamplighter Badges, and Memories of Aurene wouldn't fit that meta thematically, and there's really no other Gen3 Legendary component that's tradable and of similar value to LLBs or Ambergris. Honestly though, I think Jade Runestones will be OK even if it drops to like 10s or so. That would keep it at roughly similar value to Amalgamated Gemstones and be a decent alternative for players who don't like running around opening fox boxes. (I personally love doing that, but obviously not all players will feel the same.)

Likewise, the reason I suggested LLBs is because, as you mentioned, not everybody will like redoing map completion or lighting lanterns. (I'm personally OK with it as somebody who did Core Map Completion 10 times, but even I acknowledge that it was getting pretty grindy by the end.) I foresee LLB prices rising as people get tired of doing EoD maps, and this is my way of ensuring there is another source for LLBs so their prices don't grow out of control.

HoT's reward structure and currency design did have its flaws, but overall I agree it was quite well managed. DS is the only major source in the game for Crystalline Ore, so people will always come back to DS for that, but the meta is also engaging and decently rewarding. I would say the only big issue left to be fixed with HoT currencies is giving more worthwhile sinks for the map tokens like Airship Oil (ESPECIALLY Airship Oil) that have practically zero use outside of making Fulgurite.

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5 minutes ago, Zaxares.5419 said:

Yeah. I was trying reaaaaaally hard to think of something else we could replace Jade Runestones with, but I didn't want to double up on Lamplighter Badges, and Memories of Aurene wouldn't fit that meta thematically, and there's really no other Gen3 Legendary component that's tradable and of similar value to LLBs or Ambergris. Honestly though, I think Jade Runestones will be OK even if it drops to like 10s or so. That would keep it at roughly similar value to Amalgamated Gemstones and be a decent alternative for players who don't like running around opening fox boxes. (I personally love doing that, but obviously not all players will feel the same.)

Likewise, the reason I suggested LLBs is because, as you mentioned, not everybody will like redoing map completion or lighting lanterns. (I'm personally OK with it as somebody who did Core Map Completion 10 times, but even I acknowledge that it was getting pretty grindy by the end.) I foresee LLB prices rising as people get tired of doing EoD maps, and this is my way of ensuring there is another source for LLBs so their prices don't grow out of control.

HoT's reward structure and currency design did have its flaws, but overall I agree it was quite well managed. DS is the only major source in the game for Crystalline Ore, so people will always come back to DS for that, but the meta is also engaging and decently rewarding. I would say the only big issue left to be fixed with HoT currencies is giving more worthwhile sinks for the map tokens like Airship Oil (ESPECIALLY Airship Oil) that have practically zero use outside of making Fulgurite.

Agree with most of it. But LLB deflating (aka increasing in value over time) is mostly positive as it props up the overall value for people mass manufacturing legendries in a way that benefits low intensity and low experience users the most. Which is exactly how it should work. 

The end game economy subsidizing people who are much earlier in their crafting and progression curve. 

And yes, not all currencies were well designed and utilized to full potential but the overall structure was excellent in encouraging long term engagement that feels respectful of your time, varied and interesting. 

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It if buffing rewards ... in a way that those infusions might get super expensive on the TP. While  for some people this "expected utility" (expected income/money) ... is just not imporant - cause they do not care. (Thinking "i'm always unlucky" or "never lucky".)

... it still seems that even cheap stuff is done by a lot of people. There are old core ma meta events with non-bound stuff that can be sold for "just" a few hundred gold (compared to thousands that infusions bring) ... cause of that on collection (for treasure chest for home node) that requires stuff from certain events. Meta events. Normal events. And bound stuff. (The Rhendak thing.)

Doesn't mean that "good" players will stay though. Just farmers might want to do it and if it doesn't also get easier they still might play easier stuff. (Fail rate needs to be close to zero as long as an organized group is involved. Similar to triple trouble when joining the map 15 mins before it starts and you have enough people that know what they are doing.)

As long as organized fail rated isn't close to zero it might still annoying for lots of people regardless of the rewards. And since organizing menas "commander explains and leads ... with the pugs available" - the dps requirements should be lower while mechanics requirements should be in a way that even with low dps it is possible ... but missing the mechanics fan fail it sill big (even with high dps).

 I wonder if this is even is possible with a clusterf*** of people on a small area where ti feels like the system requirements in crease for EoD was solely for this meta event.

(Triple trouple the players are split. Other "full zerg at one location" have easier mechanics.) I think I need a better computer to be able to properly dodge. 😄

I acutally would prefer if the split player mechanics were more interesting/important (though at the first time this occours it only splits to 3 parts - maybe there should be all 5 sub-bosses and those twice with the 2nd tim them with harder mechanics ... and Soo-Won itself made more basic/low dps required). Looking back ... the marionette was pretty fun (though annoying at first) - where there were a lot of small groups and good performance was required. (At least for the private squad with less amount of people.)

Edited by Luthan.5236
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17 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

People have been asking for an infusion, because even if it's rare people will do the meta for it apparently.

Most of the people asking for it are just going to farm something else and buy that infusion off TP/trading discord. They won't be farming for it themselves. Most infusions are obtained only incidentally by people that were playing that content for other stuff, not by people that were there farming specifically for them. Which requires good reasons to be there outside of those infusions. So, just slapping an infusion on bad reward meta is not going to change much.

Infusion should have been introduced in addition to increase of rewards. Not instead of those.

Quote

I got into a squad today at the start of the Crystal charging part, so, 5 minutes before the fight with Soo Won. We did it with more than 5 minutes remaining.

Meaning, the other people in the squad did the job for you and you basically leeched. Imagine, however, that everyone would try do do the same - in that case you'd fail.

Edited by Astralporing.1957
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