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Scrapper is Overnerfed


Kuma.1503

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It's fallen out of favor in nearly all aspects of the game. 

It's almost non-existant in PvP. It's outclassed by Holo and Mech in just about every role. If you want a durable teamfighter with decent damage and support, you play Prot Holo over elixir scrapper. 

It's undesirable in PvE. The impact savant nerf is an indirect hit to its already low dps. You have a harder time maintaining your scholar rune bonus, so expect even lower numbers in real fights. The only reason to run this is superspeed, but this is less valuable in most cases than what a firebrand or even quickness dps catalyst can provide. Both deal significantly more damage than scrapper, and both can provide easier access to might, fury, prot, and resolution.

Firebrand also has stability and aegis which is a massive dps increase on a lot of fights. Nothing ruins a rotation quite like getting stunned every few seconds by the boss. Firebrand removes that painpoint and turns most bosses into glorified target golems. Scrapper can't really compete with that. 

In Fractals, Scrapper has to push mobs away in order to generate might and quickness with blast gyro. This is annoying for everyone involved. Firebrand, on the other hand, has spammable pulls with Justice Tome, and generates might/quickness without pushing mobs away. 

In WvW, it was a decent (but not top tier) roamer before the nerfs, but the squad nerfs also came as a heavy hit to solo dps scrapper. You have less superspeed and half as much quickness uptime as before. Mobility creep hit hard in EoD, so making scrapper slower means they'll have a harder time sticking to their targets and escaping unfavorable fights. 

It remains a top tier support in WvW zergs, but this is just one aspect of the game, and for me personally, it's an aspect of the game that doesn't exist because my PC cannot handle WvW zerg fights, nor do I find them enjoyable. 

 

This class (and the core engineer proffession as a whole) is in dire need of an overhaul. 

 

That's a lot of work, so until then, the absolute bare-minimum that should be done is to remove the Vitality penalty from Impact Savant. This trait is net neutral at best in solo situations. If you're doing 10k dps solo, you're generating 500 barrier per second. -180 vitality is a 1800 health loss. It will take you 4 seconds to break even asuming your damage doesn't fall off because mobs die, you get CC'd, or enemies stealth or go invulnerable, you get blinded and have your nades blocked by sand lions, ect.

Increasing the barrier gen to 10% matching PvP and WvW would also go a long way. 

 

After that, consider whether you wish for scrapper to be a healing/cleansing support or a power dps bruiser. Whichever you choose, rework the elite spec accordingly. If healing and cleansing is the desired direction for Scrapper moving forward, rework the traits, weapon, and utilities to reflect that. 

Edited by Kuma.1503
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7 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

It's fallen out of favor in nearly all aspects of the game. 

It's almost non-existant in PvP. It's outclassed by Holo and Mech in just about every role. If you want a durable teamfighter with decent damage and support, you play Prot Holo over elixir scrapper. 

It's undesirable in PvE. The impact savant nerf is an indirect hit to its already low dps. You have a harder time maintaining your scholar rune bonus, so expect even lower numbers in real fights. The only reason to run this is superspeed, but this is less valuable in most cases than what a firebrand or even quickness dps catalyst can provide. Both deal significantly more damage than scrapper, and both can provide easier access to might, fury, prot, and resolution.

Firebrand also has stability and aegis which is a massive dps increase on a lot of fights. Nothing ruins a rotation quite like getting stunned every few seconds by the boss. Firebrand removes that painpoint and turns most bosses into glorified target golems. Scrapper can't really compete with that. 

In Fractals, Scrapper has to push mobs away in order to generate might and quickness with blast gyro. This is annoying for everyone involved. Firebrand, on the other hand, has spammable pulls with Justice Tome, and generates might/quickness without pushing mobs away. 

In WvW, it was a decent (but not top tier) roamer before the nerfs, but the squad nerfs also came as a heavy hit to solo dps scrapper. You have less superspeed and half as much quickness uptime as before. Mobility creep hit hard in EoD, so making scrapper slower means they'll have a harder time sticking to their targets and escaping unfavorable fights. 

It remains a top tier support in WvW zergs, but this is just one aspect of the game, and for me personally, it's an aspect of the game that doesn't exist because my PC cannot handle WvW zerg fights, nor do I find them enjoyable. 

 

This class (and the core engineer proffession as a whole) is in dire need of an overhaul. 

 

That's a lot of work, so until then, the absolute bare-minimum that should be done is to remove the Vitality penalty from Impact Savant. This trait is net neutral at best in solo situations. If you're doing 10k dps solo, you're generating 500 barrier per second. -180 vitality is a 1800 health loss. It will take you 4 seconds to break even asuming your damage doesn't fall off because mobs die, you get CC'd, or enemies stealth or go invulnerable, you get blinded and have your nades blocked by sand lions, ect.

Increasing the barrier gen to 10% matching PvP and WvW would also go a long way. 

 

After that, consider whether you wish for scrapper to be a healing/cleansing support or a power dps bruiser. Whichever you choose, rework the elite spec accordingly. If healing and cleansing is the desired direction for Scrapper moving forward, rework the traits, weapon, and utilities to reflect that. 

 

This has happened to Herald and Reaper as well.  But yeah they screwed up Scrapper bad. At least remove the -180 vitality for such a crappy shield.

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Funny enough there is this thread

that calls to nerf scrapper in the one game mode (more like 1 part of the whole game mode) that it is relevant

I love my scrapper but at this point, it's not really relevant in PvE anymore. I exclusively use it in WvW and in some rare occasions when all the blue guys are not around, as quickness provider

 

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I still run scrapper in open world because I haven’t found a better option so far for solo play that isn’t only about soloing bounties.

If I have to solo a bounty or a champion, I’d usually just go celestial or Viper mechanist but for mowing through trash, collecting stuff and doing general open world stuff on my own (not meta’s), I almost always default to a scrapper build with alchemy and elixir for quickness, blast and shredder gyro. 

Edited by Spie.5024
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7 hours ago, Spie.5024 said:

I still run scrapper in open world because I haven’t found a better option so far for solo play that isn’t only about soloing bounties.

If I have to solo a bounty or a champion, I’d usually just go celestial or Viper mechanist but for mowing through trash, collecting stuff and doing general open world stuff on my own (not meta’s), I almost always default to a scrapper build with alchemy and elixir for quickness, blast and shredder gyro. 

Any mechanist or holosmith build will do more dps than Scrapper and also have better survival.  If you want quick trash cleave, run power, if you want to solo champions run condi.

 

Scrapper can still kill things in open world but it's easily the worst spec for it.  It deals less damage and the impact Savant nerf killed it.

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19 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

Any mechanist or holosmith build will do more dps than Scrapper and also have better survival.  If you want quick trash cleave, run power, if you want to solo champions run condi.

 

Scrapper can still kill things in open world but it's easily the worst spec for it.  It deals less damage and the impact Savant nerf killed it.

This is hilariously false. Scrapper is still one of the best classes for open world solo play, apart from soloing bosses/bounties. The amount of AoE you have, cc, perma quickness and superspeed, 25 might, barrier (yes even after the nerf its still good)... its just so easy.

Doesn't change the fact that it is overnerfed in pve,  pvp and wvw (dps scrapper pov). In pvp I generally have a lot more succes on my core engi build than I do on scrapper. 

Edited by Koensol.5860
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You didn't say anything at all to counter my statement...  I said you can still run Scrapper open world, its just the worst to do so of the three specs.  Holo and Mechanist both have AoE, can self buff 25 might, Holo can easily get perma quickness, mechanist I'm not sure but the dps is still higher, and they both survive easier.  How is anything I said false?  Also, most of the challenge of open world is champions, event bosses, or bounty types..  so..  yeah.

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3 hours ago, Stx.4857 said:

You didn't say anything at all to counter my statement...  I said you can still run Scrapper open world, its just the worst to do so of the three specs.  Holo and Mechanist both have AoE, can self buff 25 might, Holo can easily get perma quickness, mechanist I'm not sure but the dps is still higher, and they both survive easier.  How is anything I said false?  Also, most of the challenge of open world is champions, event bosses, or bounty types..  so..  yeah.

I’m curious now so would you mind sharing builds for these that I can try to compare with scrapper for solo play? 
What gear traits and skills to run for each of the specs you recommended? Is it power or condi because condi doesn’t work well for certain core Tyria for example.  

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5 minutes ago, Spie.5024 said:

I’m curious now so would you mind sharing builds for these that I can try to compare with scrapper for solo play? 
What gear traits and skills to run for each of the specs you recommended? Is it power or condi because condi doesn’t work well for certain core Tyria for example.  

I really wouldn't worry about making a build for Core tyria, that content is very easy compared to HoT, PoF, EoD etc.  

 

When I am playing Open world for fun, I use a celestial Holosmith build that has plenty of cleave, single target, and is tanky AF.  Lots of burning plus decent power damage and perma quickness, easy 25 might too.  

 

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PehAwqlZwmYdMJGKWyT5vVA-zxIY1ohvMCLB6tA08AEOzyWPbA-e

 

For soloing super difficult stuff like Legendary bounties, I switch to mechanist using Lord Hizens latest Engi build:

 

 

I'm not certain thats necessarily the best solo mechanist build but it works for me so I use it.  I prefer Holo.

 

I have played Scrapper multiple times in the past and I have tested several builds since the Impact Savant nerf, but its just not fun anymore, because that barrier conversion was the specs entire sustain.  And any attempt to add sustain to the build either with alchemy, gear, or traits resulted in damage loss from a spec that already dealt less damage than Holo or mech. 

 

If you are looking for other builds like a straight power mechanist you might try metabattle.com, I havent really played that as I find mace unbearable.  But power Holosmith is very good, you can run lots of versions including a tools version with super short cooldown toolbelt skills which is fun, but I prefer celestial its very flexible and holo suits it perfectly.

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3 hours ago, Spie.5024 said:

I’m curious now so would you mind sharing builds for these that I can try to compare with scrapper for solo play? 
What gear traits and skills to run for each of the specs you recommended? Is it power or condi because condi doesn’t work well for certain core Tyria for example.  


Holosmith build. Relatively self explanatory, all the might and quickness along with a large variety of naturally generated boons, big damage and if you don't like grenades you can replace the kit with something like Hardlight Arena for an excellent protection upkeep. Diviners is selected here but Celestial is a good choice too so long as you use an off-hand pistol, lean your traits towards condi, and use Thermal Release Valve instead of Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit.

 

Mechanist Build. Condi build, simple one, pump as many stats as you can get in the mech, power included since its power damage inheritance is at 100%. Simply go to town with your pistols and grenades and use the Superconducting Signet's active and the Mech's Discharge Array to fry anyone inside the Mech's field alive, resort to Shift Signet to manually reposition the Mech should you not be satisfied. Sky Circus is there for the extra CC and ease of signet management. This one's especially easy to get things done done with because of the range, the pet, the mobility and the constant regeneration.

 

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Yes, Scrapper absolutely did not need the barrier nerf, at least not in PVE ( I can't comment as to PvP as I don't play it much).  Scrapper DPS was already lowish in raids/fractals etc, and that just got worse.  The biggest nerf has been to Open World fun and I don't know why Anet feels the need to nerf that.... 

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Thats wrong. Without the nerf to impact savant qscrapper was able to easily tank nearly every raid boss with the full q-dps build. Obviously this has to be adressed. Even now tanking with qrapper is still possible, however a little bit harder and not brainless anymore. Also, quickness generation is far more reliable on scrapper (and qfb, however everyone knows fb with his swiss army knife is broken) than on harb/cata.

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I'm not sure why it is a problem for a QDPS scrapper to be able to tank easily.  Plenty of other support specs can do so.  Heal Quick scrapper can tank, Hfb can tank to name a few.  It isn't as if a mega high dps build was able to tank.  Qscrapper is still support with a lower dps as a result. 

 

As far as accessibility, why is it an issue if an 'easier' option exists?  There are plenty of 'easy' DPS options, plenty of 'easy' healing options.  What wrong with an 'easy' tanking option?

 

I don't think scrappers tanking was breaking the game in any way.  Unlike some other builds we could mention that are still SUPER OP and have been for years......  

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Not against class buffs (if it's done properly) but really, in WvW roaming Scrapper is still top tier albeit not God tier. 

Stealth duration has not been nerfed and that's what makes it so powerful. Zerk Nade scrappers run rampart. Also Cele versions might sound doodoo, but several people make it work too well, but ofc that's more on Cele. 

Overall, I play scrapper in zergs and I'm pretty good at it. I heavily felt the nerf to SS and Quickness, but I can also see why it's still better than many other specs. 

More engis play scrapper as engi roaming (far more from what I have seen) than yolosmith, tho mechanist have some strong representation too. Core is pretty rare to see. 

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2 hours ago, Grand Marshal.4098 said:

Not against class buffs (if it's done properly) but really, in WvW roaming Scrapper is still top tier albeit not God tier. 

Stealth duration has not been nerfed and that's what makes it so powerful. Zerk Nade scrappers run rampart. Also Cele versions might sound doodoo, but several people make it work too well, but ofc that's more on Cele. 

Overall, I play scrapper in zergs and I'm pretty good at it. I heavily felt the nerf to SS and Quickness, but I can also see why it's still better than many other specs. 

More engis play scrapper as engi roaming (far more from what I have seen) than yolosmith, tho mechanist have some strong representation too. Core is pretty rare to see. 

This is accurate for WvW. If scrapper had literally nothing else except sneak gyro and function gyro, it'd still be a strong pick for roaming. 

Those two things are so good that I even run scrapper on my condi pistols roamer even though I get basically nothing out of the rest of the traits and could be getting more damage & sustain synergy out of a core traitline.

Mech and Holo may be better in certain fight situations, but as far as utility (ressing downed friends, stomping enemies, and engaging/disengaging), you can't beat scrapper.

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9 minutes ago, coro.3176 said:

This is accurate for WvW. If scrapper had literally nothing else except sneak gyro and function gyro, it'd still be a strong pick for roaming. 

Those two things are so good that I even run scrapper on my condi pistols roamer even though I get basically nothing out of the rest of the traits and could be getting more damage & sustain synergy out of a core traitline.

Mech and Holo may be better in certain fight situations, but as far as utility (ressing downed friends, stomping enemies, and engaging/disengaging), you can't beat scrapper.

Exactly, on top of the very good cleanse/stab access you can have even as a DPS, with good projectile hate and survivability in your weapons, as Shield and Hammer are very useful. Scrapper could use some reworking. It's the only class next to zerker that suffers from a flat stat pentalty, but unlike Zerker it has all the tools necessary to still perform well.

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The pre-EOD Scrapper is easily the most fun I've ever had in open world in this game (and mind you, this was the same era that pre-nerf Rune of Torment Renegade existed in). Life pulled me away from the game for a couple months, and now I've returned to see my main has basically become a Godfather meme.

Impact Savant, a previously defining aspect of the build, is in many instances now an active hindrance compared to having nothing, and you can't even slot out of it. Why even leave it in the game at all? You can't even build around it unless you're dedicating all of your gear choices to getting around it, and in that case, why even bother? It's honestly kind of put me off the class altogether, and I've struggled terribly trying to find something else that clicks as well. Play Mech? Maybe, but don't get too comfortable; my money says Mech's only got another two months before they kick its teeth in if they don't do it sooner. But then I guess the same could be said for a lot of builds (at least, as long as they're not guardian builds).

The whole thing is just demoralizing. I might disagree, but if you decide the spec is too good at something and has to be changed, fine. However, doesn't the class have enough neglected problems that you could invest in fixing some while you're taking the knife to it? I'm being a little hyperbolic here --after all, it's just a nerf, right? The build is still perfectly playable; it's just worse. --but I can't really understate just how fun the build was and how valuable it was as a choice for players who care a great deal about a particular aspect of the game that has been overlooked and under-supported until very recently, and I can't overstate just how mediocre the build is by comparison now. There's a reason we've seen a surge of things like LI builds, open world solo, and one-for-all content on Youtube within the last year or two; for me, qscrapper was the poster child for perfection--a build that I could tweak just a hair and basically take everywhere. It meant actually having a main--one character to be invested in, with a particular focus and a set of tools I could practice and depend on--almost like an RPG. If it was too powerful, I wish every other build was too, because it was a blast.

But now I'm back in the wind, because I feel like I've basically been told by the powers that be that if I want to play my scrapper, I need to get my med kit and go to WVW (and forget about superspeed), and if I want to do anything else I should log back to the character select screen and play something else.

That feels like a step backwards.

/soapbox

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  • 3 weeks later...

Scrapper whomst?

 

But yeah, after trying mechanist, it's even more painful to go back. I'm not sure whether scrapper was supposed to be a tank or a support anymore, but the new spec does both better and easier. Harbinger and Catalyst also give quickness now and seem preferred in team compositions. To even go back somewhat in line with the rest of support, Scrapper needs to upkeep at least 1-2 additional boons (fury is a popular suggestion. More of at least situational protection and stability share would be nice?) and the superspeed from gyros needs a buff imo. QScrapper is fine in that regard, but I already struggle to keep up 100% on hqscrapper, and I maintain that using skills like aoe ress or burst heal should be able to be kept situational when squad is in trouble, not spammed on cd. Likewise to maintain might you need to spam all your elixir skills on cd and pray. Meanwhile on mechanist I just need to press two buttons every now and then and autoattack to maintain permanent alacrity and 25 stacks of might. Disheartening.

"BuT it'S oVERperFORmInG iN wVW!!" well if an espec is only viable in a single niche of a single game mode, not all is well, is it?

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