PvP 4v5 surrender/auto end

[jebro.6370]

Hi all!

I dont often visit the forums anymore but I wanted to throw this out there.

When games begin 4v5 (and remain so), or end up being 4v5 due to dc's, players often end up waiting out a game for the next 8-10 minutes.

Im not calling for an all out surrender button, but an auto game end/or option to surrender ONLY if there is a DC. Losing team wont lose rank points, winning team gains, very much in the same way they do now.

Before we get peeps coming into the thread saying they are winnable, yes I know. But I am willing to wager a good amount of gold that those chances for the casual to higher end player base are very slim. 

The population feels small, lets get players into decent games that are 5v5, and back into the system to create faster pops for our community.

 

Cheers

 

Jebro

Edited April 21, 2022 by jebro.6370

[Avatar.3568]

Hi jebro! 

I think autosurrendor seems to overkill, I rather take an vote option, with a 3>1 winning voting system. If people want to try the 4vs5 they should be able to do at least. 

[jebro.6370]

Aye this is the other though basicallly!

[DanAlcedo.3281]

We had some ideas like this before. 

My first thought always is "How can I abuse the kitten out of it". 

Like, I see someone I wanna boost on my enemy team. Could I not just log off and he gets an insta win even faster now? 

Now we say, Ohh just not give the winning team points but now I could just log off and deny my opponents points at will. Wasting their time. 

 

Giving the player the option to end a match manually seems way to abusable. 

[Kuya.6495]

1 hour ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

We had some ideas like this before. 

My first thought always is "How can I abuse the kitten out of it". 

Like, I see someone I wanna boost on my enemy team. Could I not just log off and he gets an insta win even faster now? 

Now we say, Ohh just not give the winning team points but now I could just log off and deny my opponents points at will. Wasting their time. 

 

Giving the player the option to end a match manually seems way to abusable. 

You can do that already right now. If you want to boost someone in your enemy team, you can log off and deny your team a win like 90% of the time and earn the enemy an easy win. That wouldn't change with the OP's suggestion. 

 

It just means that people won't have to wait around as long for the match to end when it's already obvious what the end result will be. It's just about speeding up the process and not wasting everyone's time.

Edited April 21, 2022 by Kuya.6495

[Myror.7521]

Idk man sometimes if you get  a dc one he just came back and play so it could still be a win. For example i myself dc at a game i came back and it Was 80 to 480 points wise. Somehow we managed to still win that game. So well i wouldnt need a free win Button for enemys lel xd

[DanAlcedo.3281]

1 hour ago, Kuya.6495 said:

You can do that already right now. If you want to boost someone in your enemy team, you can log off and deny your team a win like 90% of the time and earn the enemy an easy win. That wouldn't change with the OP's suggestion. 

 

It just means that people won't have to wait around as long for the match to end when it's already obvious what the end result will be. It's just about speeding up the process and not wasting everyone's time.

But that's the point. You have the option to speed it up, making it even more effective. 

And like always, a good change can easily be ruined by the 0.01% who will abuse the kitten out of it. 

I just wanted to point out that a change like that can cause way more problems than it solves. 

[ToastyFx.3457]

True, but at the same time for a lot of people out there, this would tend to solve more problems. 

Plus, here is an addition you could add to that: 

 

If the devs just added on a tracker to see how many people abuse it, i.e if a Player has an accumulated pattern of X amount of times of doing this, they either get banned for X amount of time, or some other action is taken to prevent them from abusing it further, gradually that would help sort out the trolls/abusers to have far less motivation to abuse it. 

[jebro.6370]

11 hours ago, Pati.2438 said:

Idk man sometimes if you get  a dc one he just came back and play so it could still be a win. For example i myself dc at a game i came back and it Was 80 to 480 points wise. Somehow we managed to still win that game. So well i wouldnt need a free win Button for enemys lel xd

Again. This would be after the 2 minutes where the team with the DC would NOT lose rank points. It would simply speed the process of getting out of the game, and there is the option to leave.

Also the chances of your situation happening after a DC of more than 2 mins is slim to none ^^

[jebro.6370]

13 hours ago, DanAlcedo.3281 said:

We had some ideas like this before. 

My first thought always is "How can I abuse the kitten out of it". 

Like, I see someone I wanna boost on my enemy team. Could I not just log off and he gets an insta win even faster now? 

Now we say, Ohh just not give the winning team points but now I could just log off and deny my opponents points at will. Wasting their time. 

 

Giving the player the option to end a match manually seems way to abusable. 

 

Its unfortunate that our first thought is to "how will people take advantage of this.". Unfortunately thats where we are, but also, there are biable systems in many pvp focused games that our mode could learn from. I think there is a step that canbe taken, but because of that "how will people mess with it" that step hasnt been taken.

 

Id argue ranked is NOT a good way to see skill of players in all honesty. We dont have enough regions, duo queue, population size, game quality etc all affect this skewed way of how we rate players in the game currently.

[AusarViled.7106]

+1 I hate unfair matches. Auto ban AFK players 

[Bazsi.2734]

I was voicing my concerns against all of these "let us end tilted matches early" propositions so far. All of them could have been abused in some ways. However!

If I understand it correctly, the team with the DC could decide to give up only AFTER they have already qualified for rating protection due to prolonged 4v5. This is not a bad idea. Waiting for qpop, only to get a DC, so you're waiting for the match to end so you can wait for another qpop... anything that reduces this waiting with no downsides is good.

[Multicolorhipster.9751]

It would be a nice QOL change and they should just ban anyone who exploits it.

It should be easy to tell if someone was constantly using a feature like this. The average player shouldn't have to use it very often but it would be nice for those times where relevant.

6 hours ago, jebro.6370 said:

Id argue ranked is NOT a good way to see skill of players in all honesty. We dont have enough regions, duo queue, population size, game quality etc all affect this skewed way of how we rate players in the game currently.

And since they're being mentioned; more regions, and a soloq-only Ranked option would be even better. 

Something like that to make Ranked more bearable overall, rather than just for specific games/situations.

[Forgotten Legend.9281]

i stopped playing PvP because i got stuck in 3 v 5 or 4v 5 all the time. and i still lost rank because 1 or 2 players would do only enough at spawn to prevent being kicked out of the game for not doing anything. and therefore prevented the game from triggering the code to make me not lose rank. as long as crap like that exists, i don't care if this game mode suddenly disappears and never returns. The other main reason is having to sit in Q for 20-30 minutes between every match... way back in seasons 1,2 &3...

 

i'll admit, i originally thought that removing team Q would help, but i was wrong. going with solo / duo Q only really made this game mode un fun, because i could no longer Q up with 4 guildmates. I really think that sPvP mode should have always had 2 separate Qs for ranked : Team Q and a separate "random" solo Q, like back in GW1. I also think that it's way too late to do that in GW2, because sPvP has so few players now that it's in a coma on its hospital bed. but what do i know? maybe the game mode could be revived with enough players with anticheat software so good that win-trading and bots and spawn-afk-ing won't exist...

[AusarViled.7106]

13 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

i stopped playing PvP because i got stuck in 3 v 5 or 4v 5 all the time. and i still lost rank because 1 or 2 players would do only enough at spawn to prevent being kicked out of the game for not doing anything. and therefore prevented the game from triggering the code to make me not lose rank. as long as crap like that exists, i don't care if this game mode suddenly disappears and never returns. The other main reason is having to sit in Q for 20-30 minutes between every match... way back in seasons 1,2 &3...

 

i'll admit, i originally thought that removing team Q would help, but i was wrong. going with solo / duo Q only really made this game mode un fun, because i could no longer Q up with 4 guildmates. I really think that sPvP mode should have always had 2 separate Qs for ranked : Team Q and a separate "random" solo Q, like back in GW1. I also think that it's way too late to do that in GW2, because sPvP has so few players now that it's in a coma on its hospital bed. but what do i know? maybe the game mode could be revived with enough players with anticheat software so good that win-trading and bots and spawn-afk-ing won't exist...

Anti cheat wont work, because it is a useless piece of trash that you can circumvent simply by changing the process from real time processing to never in the process tree. This borks it in 99% of games i ever played, have not tried it with GW2 because i do not want a ban, yet knowing that bots exist in game, i am sure that is exactly what they do.  As easy anti cheat only turns of the game if it is turned off. Look with elden ring how it took 2 days for hackers to be cheating in game. 

[Poledra Val.1490]

Unfortunately considering how small the population is in pvp atm i can only see people manipulating a potential surrender function tool. Especially during night ques to boost rating for friends, match manipulation etc. Ranked is almost not policed by Anet so this would just create another means to circumvent the system.

Would be great in theory if the population was thriving, as it is now though i just cant see it being implemented in any fashion.

Edited April 23, 2022 by Poledra Val.1490

[Lightfoot.5438]

ive dced and have come back to finish the game regardless of whether I would win or not. It used to be that sometimes when this happened i would not be stuck with a dishonor and not have to wait to play again. Now what's happening is that even after I disconnect I will always get penalized regardless of whether I my team wins or not. This was not always the case if I could rejoin quickly enough in the past i would quite often suffer no penalty. (As an aside someone can park their toon in a match and get no penalty whatsoever.)

 

The DCs seems to be more frequent now as I see more of these 4v5 matches and since each player will not be playing for a while, the number of players in the pool shrinks. Anets solution to the problem is actually making things worse.

 

At any rate, playing a game out when the odds are against you should be considered good training. 

[jebro.6370]

LOVING the feedback! I feel like this really is a viable option for the game mode 🙂

[Deus Fatorum.2473]

Honestly, I am not opposed to a surrender option. However only if all players in the match on that team vote for it. If it is 4v5 all 4 online players would have to vote to surrender.

 

I honestly don't care if in competitive if this equals a rating loss even. ATM you don't lose rating if someone not in your party dcs for more than 90sec I believe it is(may be wrong.) So basically don't change how the rating loss is calculated. Just allow a /gg option. I have had unranked, ranked, and ATs where everyone knew it was gg on both sides and we just had to wait out the timer. This is no fun, for either side. A /gg option would just end an already decided match, you already see a version of this in ATs where people flat out decline finals because they know they cannot beat the enemy team, and at least then they can get there rewards and move on.

 

Due to low pop many games have the potential to be imbalanced, especially with new player accounts where they have not built up MMR. I once had a game solo q vs the top 4 on the leaderboard in duos and the top 10 solo vs people who would later finish that season in gold/silver and me in low plat1(all solo q.) However as it was the start of the season and many of these players were new to pvp, and the match making hadn't caught up. The match ended something like 3-501(the 3 points being initial home cap.) To the players credit no one was particularly toxic, but by 100-200 pts in the matches outcome was clear to everyone. If we had all /gg 'd it would have been far less annoying. 

 

As for abuse if you still lose rating like any other loss and the whole team needs to vote for it(not just a majority) I can not see it being abused(I mean if the whole enemy team wanted to throw they could just throw...). Hopefully the feature will not see much use, but when needed it would be nice to have.

[jebro.6370]

Game one of the brand new season and its a 4v5. Waiting 10 minutes for the game to end. ALSO...

If you LOSE that 4v5, with a DC and you are playing placement games, that game counts as a LOSS. Bare in mind, you are 4v5 with a dc at the start. That feels a little crappy ^^

Im really hoping a dev can perhaps step in with some feedback as to whether this could be a possibility.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by jebro.6370

[Sahne.6950]

2 hours ago, jebro.6370 said:

Game one of the brand new season and its a 4v5. Waiting 10 minutes for the game to end. ALSO...

If you LOSE that 4v5, with a DC and you are playing placement games, that game counts as a LOSS. Bare in mind, you are 4v5 with a dc at the start. That feels a little crappy ^^

Im really hoping a dev can perhaps step in with some feedback as to whether this could be a possibility.

 

 

same answer from me than from alot of people in this thread and multiple threads before this....

NO. It would be wintrading galore.

[jebro.6370]

On 5/4/2022 at 2:23 AM, Sahne.6950 said:

same answer from me than from alot of people in this thread and multiple threads before this....

NO. It would be wintrading galore.

It cant be win trading galore.... thats the point.

If a DC occurs for the time period the game just ends earlier, itll be the same, just kicking players earlier to the lobby. Read the original post. Also thats not at all what people in the thread have said.

Id appreciate the reasons why you think that would occur, when its literally the system thats in place now, but players get booted to the lobby saving them time waiting in an unfair game.

Edited June 28, 2022 by jebro.6370

[Crab Fear.8623]

1 hour ago, jebro.6370 said:

It cant be win trading galore.... thats the point.

If a DC occurs for the time period the game just ends earlier, itll be the same, just kicking players earlier to the lobby. Read the original post. Also thats not at all what people in the thread have said.

Id appreciate the reasons why you think that would occur, when its literally the system thats in place now, but players get booted to the lobby saving them time waiting in an unfair game.

 

The game should end as no contest, with niether team awarded rating or affecting w/l ratio.

[Bazsi.2734]

On 6/28/2022 at 10:23 AM, Crab Fear.8623 said:

 

The game should end as no contest, with niether team awarded rating or affecting w/l ratio.

So if I'm against someone who I really do not want to win, I can just disconnect and make sure that he cannot climb. No.

[Crab Fear.8623]

2 hours ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

So if I'm against someone who I really do not want to win, I can just disconnect and make sure that he cannot climb. No.

Yeah, but then the game ends immediately, you get 15 minutes of dishonor, and are not affecting any climb.

You understand right?

Your DC will still give you dishonor l, and the game is over immediately.

It is not affected by your scheme.