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how has willbender flown under the radar?


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This spec is unkillable from conditions - especially if you use double cleanse sigil

- Crashing Courage is sickly broken with the stab it provides as a stun break. On what something like 25.5 second CD?... that ports...

- flowing resolve - an evade...(x2 and removes 3 conditions per use to allies in 600 radius... kittening insane) makes you uncontrollable - you can't be slowed/stopped

- GS 5 is clunky af and needs to be tuned

- main hand sword 2 on an 8 second CD isn't too powerful by itself but combined with this spec it's an insane port to traverse terrain/port through walls/ target swap instantly especially when used with judge's intervention

- with a target, willbender is probably faster than daredevil theif. How do you escape or catch up ?

- heavy armor further helps

 

just to recap the mobility that's available to willbender

- gs 3
- sword 2 

- sword 5

- f1(rushing justice), f2(flowing resolve x2), f3(crashing courage)

- judge's intervention

 

what am i overlooking here? how does willbender fare in high level tournament play?

 

Edited by nagreatereu.7865
gs5 clarification
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Because it was just in the last patch that they reduced the cooldown of f2 and f3 by >33%, and now everyone runs virtues for even lower cooldowns and boon spam. Im guessing willbender, spectre, or untamed will be the go-to roamers for the monthly. The game feels so terrible to play right now if you arent abusing one of the new specs that has crazy mobility.

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1 hour ago, nagreatereu.7865 said:

This spec is unkillable from conditions - especially if you use double cleanse sigil

- Crashing Courage is sickly broken with the stab it provides as a stun break. On what something like 25.5 second CD?... that ports...

- flowing resolve - an evade...(x2 and removes 3 conditions per use to allies in 600 radius... kittening insane) makes you uncontrollable - you can't be slowed/stopped

- GS 5 is clunky af and needs to be tuned

- main hand sword 2 on an 8 second CD isn't too powerful by itself but combined with this spec it's an insane port to traverse terrain/port through walls/ target swap instantly especially when used with judge's intervention

- with a target, willbender is probably faster than daredevil theif. How do you escape or catch up ?

- heavy armor further helps

 

just to recap the mobility that's available to willbender

- gs 3
- sword 2 

- sword 5

- f1(rushing justice), f2(flowing resolve x2), f3(crashing courage)

- judge's intervention

 

what am i overlooking here? how does willbender fare in high level tournament play?

 

What you're overlooking is the distance those mobility skills cover (flowing resolve is only 450, most of the others are 600), it doesn't matter if you have 3 mobility skills and they guy chasing you has only 1, if that 1 covers the same distance as all 3 of yours. There is also the opportunity cost of using them for mobility. If you use flowing resolve to zoom between nodes, that means you're burning your main source of condi-cleanse for a slight mobility boost. And, as you mentioned, SW2 and JI require a target, which means they're highly situational. Finally with crashing-courage and rushing-justice there's the issue of cast-times and animation-locks, which means you don't actually cover the distance stated in the tooltip.

I don't expect to see many Willbenders in MAT teams, because, while it is a decent +1 spec, what you notice with the meta picks for MAT level play is that they are always able to both fulfill their primary role *and* be able to hold a node for a moderate amount time until help arrives, *and* be able to survive a certain amount of time when being focused outnumbered. There are plenty of builds across all classes which can do 1 specific thing very well, but if they can't do all of the above then they're simply not worth a team-slot. WB survives by running away, which isn't very conducive to holding nodes or peeling for team-mates.

Edited by Ragnar.4257
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2 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

What you're overlooking is the distance those mobility skills cover (flowing resolve is only 450, most of the others are 600), it doesn't matter if you have 3 mobility skills and they guy chasing you has only 1, if that 1 covers the same distance as all 3 of yours. There is also the opportunity cost of using them for mobility. If you use flowing resolve to zoom between nodes, that means you're burning your main source of condi-cleanse for a slight mobility boost. And, as you mentioned, SW2 and JI require a target, which means they're highly situational. Finally with crashing-courage and rushing-justice there's the issue of cast-times and animation-locks, which means you don't actually cover the distance stated in the tooltip.

I don't expect to see many Willbenders in MAT teams, because, while it is a decent +1 spec, what you notice with the meta picks for MAT level play is that they are always able to both fulfill their primary role *and* be able to hold a node for a moderate amount time until help arrives, *and* be able to survive a certain amount of time when being focused outnumbered. There are plenty of builds across all classes which can do 1 specific thing very well, but if they can't do all of the above then they're simply not worth a team-slot. WB survives by running away, which isn't very conducive to holding nodes or peeling for team-mates.

Balance should not be based on MAT, unless anet tries to push this game into esports.

And in ranked, there are soo many... Mobility is very good, and burst is also very good. 

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28 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Balance should not be based on MAT, unless anet tries to push this game into esports.

And in ranked, there are soo many... Mobility is very good, and burst is also very good. 

Okay? But OP asked specifically about "high level tournament play" ?

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DPS core guard player here. Let's make it from my POV:

This spec is unkillable from conditions - especially if you use double cleanse sigil

Maybe, I don't play condis.

- Crashing Courage is sickly broken with the stab it provides as a stun break. On what something like 25.5 second CD?... that ports...

That makes him kinda-immune to CC up to 10s each 25s. Annoying but it leaves a decent window to use CCs. Comment on mobility below.

- flowing resolve - an evade...(x2 and removes 3 conditions per use to allies in 600 radius... kittening insane) makes you uncontrollable - you can't be slowed/stopped

A traited profession skill with 0.5s cast time to remove some condis with a dodge is not so strong. Comment on mobility below.

- GS 5 is clunky af and needs to be tuned

Dunno, besides having poor tracking this skill is also a great warning to prepare a break stun to run out of GS 2. Very predictable. 

- main hand sword 2 on an 8 second CD isn't too powerful by itself but combined with this spec it's an insane port to traverse terrain/port through walls/ target swap instantly especially when used with judge's intervention

Comment on mobility below.

- with a target, willbender is probably faster than daredevil theif. How do you escape or catch up ?

You don't, you accept it. Same goes with professions using stealth, etc. 

- heavy armor further helps

11k base HP doesn't.

just to recap the mobility that's available to willbender

- gs 3

- sword 2 

- sword 5

- f1(rushing justice), f2(flowing resolve x2), f3(crashing courage)

- judge's intervention

Comment on mobility: while it is helpful to disengage or protect/decap nodes, this mobility is not as impactful in combat, because:

- None of the new skills are Instacast, meaning they can't help the guard safely setup a burst (unlike JI). 

- Willbenders don't rely on range weapons, meaning that, despite all their mobility skills, they will end up meleeing you.

- Mobility is not outstanding either: we are talking about several short leaps, but they won't run from close to far in a split second

Of course this build will counter others, which is often the case in this game. Nonetheless I keep seeing this elite quite the same as DH : something fundamentally bad designed, that finds its way thanks to cheese options.

Edited by aelska.4609
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As a power herald main, I feel like Willbender is just about perfect. In general they’re a grief to the condi spammers that make my life miserable. When they’re on my team they are great at helping to land kills while also giving me cleanses but when they are on the opposing team they themselves are fairly easy to kill.

I’m all for a Willbender meta.

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1 hour ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

I've played warrior far more than any guardian spec. I will say this, willbender is the least annoying guard spec to fight against. Sure it is strong and has good mobility but I feel it's fair to play and not a braindead spec. 

Study the combo rotation and either weapon evade, dodge or apply weakness. 

Until you fight it with hammer and two maces, then it's an absolute nightmare to fight. But yeah this is a spec most warrior builds can deal with pretty well, even Berserker if you can get around the blinds. 

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3 hours ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

I've played warrior far more than any guardian spec. I will say this, willbender is the least annoying guard spec to fight against.

I think war shuts it down 1v1 actually. Aside from big mistakes I've won every 1v1 in wvw, with spb. Dunno how it is in conquest, but I assume very similar.

Not to say which is better at what, just willbender tools vs war (1v1) are not the best. Kinda like DH without trapper runes.

I think herald gives war more trouble, though war also wins that 1v1 with very good plays. Mainly the kitten off me herald buttons make the difference IMO (heal and facet self aoe).

It could also be that willbender is new and so players dont know how to approach war yet (there are few and far between). Especially guards being used to unloading dmg and spamming aegis/stealth. Maybe if the willbender kites like herald does, to wait for CDs... but I still think willbender attacks have better tells and can be dodged more easily. GS in particular is a clunky/fair weapon compared to most weapons.

Edited by Hotride.2187
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3 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I think war shuts it down 1v1 actually. Aside from big mistakes I've won every 1v1 in wvw, with spb. Dunno how it is in conquest, but I assume very similar.

Not to say which is better at what, just willbender tools vs war (1v1) are not the best. Kinda like DH without trapper runes.

I think herald gives war more trouble, though war also wins that 1v1 with very good plays. Mainly the kitten off me herald buttons make the difference IMO (heal and facet self aoe).

It could also be that willbender is new and so players dont know how to approach war yet (there are few and far between). Especially guards being used to unloading dmg and spamming aegis/stealth. Maybe if the willbender kites like herald does, to wait for CDs... but I still think willbender attacks have better tells and can be dodged more easily. GS in particular is a clunky/fair weapon compared to most weapons.

Def warr takes. Berserker may have a bit of tough time with no unblockable, but Spellbreaker and especially UD BsW eat power Willbender alive. I haven't tried dueling the cel variant in wvw, but that doesn't exist in pvp, so maybe some other condi iteration? In any case I doubt it's as oppressive.

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On 4/25/2022 at 1:35 AM, Kuya.6495 said:

What i don't get is why the focus on willbender when in the MAT it was both the willbender and the untamed in combination wrecking the core guards and specters?

Its very likely because Drazeh was streaming the mAT and all the viewers can see was the Willbenders perspective. So they automatically think its OP people tend to forget that Drazeh is an exceptionally good player so in the hands of a good pvp player it looks great.

WB is very strong but its nowhere near broken.

If Boyce was the only one streaming Untamed then everyone would think Untamed has "flown under the radar" its all about perspective.

Edited by Poledra Val.1490
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8 minutes ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

Its very likely because Drazeh was streaming the mAT and all the viewers can see was the Willbenders perspective. So they automatically think its OP people tend to forget that Drazeh is an exceptionally good player so in the hands of a good pvp player it looks great.

WB is very strong but its nowhere near broken.

If Boyce was the only one streaming Untamed then everyone would think Untamed has "flown under the radar" its all about perspective.

LOL it is broken, because it's skill ceiling is so high, it can do way too much stuff in a incredibly little amount of time compared to other classes.

it is ridiculously strong, like power herald can't even compared, even tho power herald was the top of skill ceiling before EoD, it can take down after take down...but WB now can do that twice faster and also deal a million aoe damage, with 2x the mobility.

 

drazeh playing classes like herald or bladesworn, nobody will get shocked

drazeh playing willbender, everybody get shocked, because you guys have no idea what willbender can do.

Edited by felix.2386
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