I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Razor.9872]

It's so weird. I've played more than my fare share of fractals, raids, and endgame content ever since launch back in 2012, but I've only had this happen to me once in all my hours of play. Is it really this common? If so, how have I been avoiding it so consistently? :confused:

[Zacchary.6183]

@Razor.9872 said:It's so weird. I've played more than my fare share of fractals, raids, and endgame content ever since launch back in 2012, but I've only had this happen to me once in all my hours of play. Is it really this common? If so, how have I been avoiding it so consistently? :confused:

Might depend on the server.

[Fermi.2409]

Yet I've somehow never seen anyone say a word about DPS in high level fractals, even on classes that do shit damage like power Reaper. When people complain about these situations I always wonder if the person complaining has looked at the common denominator.

[Panda.1967]

@Razor.9872 said:It's so weird. I've played more than my fare share of fractals, raids, and endgame content ever since launch back in 2012, but I've only had this happen to me once in all my hours of play. Is it really this common? If so, how have I been avoiding it so consistently? :confused:

@Fermi.2409 said:Yet I've somehow never seen anyone say a word about DPS in high level fractals, even on classes that do kitten damage like power Reaper. When people complain about these situations I always wonder if the person complaining has looked at the common denominator.

That's more luck on ya'lls part. It is very common place.

As for the initial discussion... DPS meters have lead to increased hostilities. Sure, before we had meters people still kicked and denied runs for people who didn't fit in with their predefined concepts, or made snap (often false) judgements about who was doing what. But that sort of behavior didn't decrease any with the addition of meters. It increased. Only difference now is people are looking at DPS meters to make those judgements. People who previously wouldn't act on guesswork now kick or harass people for being even slightly below some arbitrary DPS benchmark. Theorycrafting also took a steep dive after DPS meters became acceptable. People look at the Meta and say "this is the one and only good build" there is no individual thought or questioning of "what if I try this?" believe it or not, there are build combos out there that are not meta that can perform equal to or even better than the meta.

[Syktek.7912]

@Beorn Raukar.4328 said:

@WARIORSCHARGEING.2637 said:can not blame you at all . when anet let the proism and elitism come into the game. that was the day the game lost its fun and way as the game was promoted to be fun . now well salt and more salt comes in these days. from the use of some of these add ons . now the really sad part is getting yelled at while you was trying to rez players back up and getting yelled at still for it

Its not like there were players like this from launch of the game. DPS meters did nothing to the game, there always was and always will be elitist players.

DPS Meters improved the game's health in my opinion. It prevents people who don't care, don't want to learn or build correctly, from making other's time more difficult. Essentially forcing them to start caring if they want to be accepted. GW2 is an easy, very easy, MMO. Its raids are childsplay and some would argue the FotM CMs are harder. There's no excuse to play like crap, wear full pvt in high level fracts, ignore mechanics, etc. There's very little critical thinking needed for this game, especially in PvE where things are basically spoonfed to the player base.

This isn't elitism.

[NotOverlyCheesy.9427]

The guy with arcdps was clearly not very bright as the meter doesnt keep defeated players in fight. It would be nice if it would keep them in fight to see the real dps values in an encounter but just keep it in mind the next time something like that happens.

[nsleep.7839]

From OP's apparent case... Hmm, I think he has a point but it doesn't have much to do with DPS meters, it's just that dead players shouldn't be complaining about the others trying to sustain and survive when they themselves are kissing the floor doing 0 damage and contributing with 0 cc, if said player thinks he is good by doing his rotation in a boss as if it's the training golem and taking all damage to the mouth makes him a good player he's just a retard.

DPS meters are just a tool, the problem is how some people use it.

[Abakk.9176]

I stopped doing grouped up content in MMORPG's quite some time ago for a variety of reasons. One of the top ones beeing that at some point peoples enjoyment seemed to have shifted towards franticly improving of personal numbers in as little time as possible at the expense of everything and everyone else.

Apparently you are 'beeing carried' these days whenever your numbers aren't the top ones and if you are the best performer it is the new thing to spit down at everyone below you, with kicking the weakest one for 'not pulling their weight'. Obviously there is always a weakest one so that is one luxioury-itch you can always scratch.

Having the possiblity to check up on people is a good way to have a solid group of elites in ones playerbase so i don't think these tools are going away anytime soon. I'd sooner expect them to become even more indepth over time.

[PaxTheGreatOne.9472]

@Jarvis.9540 said:Tonight in a t4 fractal PUG I got yelled at for temporarily attuning to water on my meta zerker elementalist (a build I've begrudgingly acquiesced into playing after seeing the party finder messages aimed at keeping my necro main from participating) after 3 of my 5 party members died, and I attempted to heal and rez everyone. I was sternly advised that my tempest is supposed to always be in fire or air. Weird. The main thing I liked about ele is its versatility and ability to hop into defense and save a party as needed. Apparently one of my party members was running "arc dps" (previously unknown to me - a tool that can show every party member's dps to each other) and saw that my dps dropped below his dead body's average numbers because he bursted the fight (ignoring mechanics) right up until he died while I tried to clean everyone up. It's a strange thing to be yelled at by a person that you are trying to save/rez because your dps numbers are dwindling while doing so.

This is my umpteenth night in a row dealing with folks shouting at each other (even if it's not always directed at me) over parsed dps numbers in higher-level fractals. I'm really tired of it.

I run fire / water / tempest regularly when groups fail to stay alive. Or I swap to an actual Auramancer build or Druid. I might consider going zealot as it tends to be enough on auramancers and druids , but I have magi and minstrel as well if a hard carry proves neccesary. But back to elementalist : Only swapping to water during my rotation gives 10 second of very light heals adding to sustain. I can fit this in my noral rotation easily. If needed with some aura's from water 4 and water 2 for vigor and regen and added regen from 5. and maybe even a few auto's and a spike from 3 if needed. If the group dies a lot they clearly have problems running meta without healing, and as such they should not complain you take some time to heal and res ppl up. I prefer to do my fractals in 1 go, even if it requires me to drop some maximum dps for options to reset the group or sustain the group without having to /gg, The gg is an automatic loss for the DPS side.... Trying to prevent a wipe is a wiser course of action then just restarting. Saying DPS is the only thing and commenting shows they cannot use the DPS meter, cause DPS is only nice if you finish an event. if not it's all useless. You can have the highest DPS in guild wars 2 but if you fail to complete content it's pointless.

The 1st thing about meta: it's fastest, as long as the group can finish content in 1 go.

If they cannot any party might be faster. Having someone healing is always a loss of DPS. And it can make your party faster if it can avoid a wipe... even with lowered DPS. Ppl who are dead connot DPS at all. Even if they killed 50+% of a boss solo it could still fail if others cannot dps or die to mechanics due to the death of the person, due to ressing or needing to drop to or from other roles to replace the casualty. Having DPS outweigh ressing downed is a very bad consequence of DPS meters, and often a reason for parties to breakup.

1 fail is so much DPS loss and it's unneeded to do pure maxed DPS rotationas long as you do not have a timer in your event.I think: If you'd be runing a group based on only power builds you could use non ferocity builds and still get higher in the end when compared to a META DPS build failing late in an encounter;..... This as ferocity adds to dmg from 150% crits to 220 %crits (ferocity only adding 50% bonus dmg to crits only)... if a meta group dies after killing a boss 50% any non ferocity build would be faster (on average DPS over the total time spend at the encounter) not having ferocity leaves a lot of styat open for heals, bunkering and such lowering chances of dying to a minimum.

Why? Because your dps might be high on arcdps , you still took 2 tries making the time used by Arc DPS a wrong figure.Arc dps (or other dps calcualtion options) will not take in account the failed attempt and doesn't reduce the real dps done in the time you had to do the engagement till finish by adding the time of the failed encounter ).If you can do 30k dps/ person and your party dies at 90% of the encounter you will have 30k/1.9 actual duration for 15.7k final dps actual on the encounter... If someone drops 5 or 10 k dps to get up some regen now and then and you get enough sustain and not die you will do 29 or 28 k dps on average and have less stree on finishing your encounter and eventually on your content. Even when a (healer/buffer/mitigator) person only does 5k dps and you drop to 25 k on avarage you'll com out ahead on 1 failed attempt.

Oh as an afterthought: In fractals I regurlarly run my necro in necro parties (condi groups or 4 necro 1 druid) They tend to be very stable an potent groups capable of doing t4 in good time. Enourmous sustain. Fails are rare. But I rarely do CM's.

[Henry.5713]

I am probably going to earn a bunch of down votes for this but the meters themselves are not to blame for such behavior. The clueless or the malicious who prefer to blame others for wipes will always throw the blame at someone and would have done so even if there were no meters but people certainly prefer to see DPS meters as the root of all evil in this game nowadays.

[Henry.5713]

I am probably going to earn a bunch of down votes for this but the meters themselves are not to blame for such behavior. The clueless or the malicious who prefer to blame others for wipes will always throw the blame at someone and would have done so even if there were no meters but people certainly prefer to see DPS meters as the root of all evil in this game nowadays.Meters actually did their part to open up the close minded views on which classes you had to have and showed everyone that personal performance is much more important than strictly following builds.And of course, there will always be those who abuse any system or treat you unfairly in general. It is a part of life. We might as well take the multiplayer part out of multiplayer games if we want to absolutely stop all of this behavior.

[Abakk.9176]

@Henry.5713 said:I am probably going to earn a bunch of down votes for this but the meters themselves are not to blame for such behavior. The clueless or the malicious who prefer to blame others for wipes will always throw the blame at someone and would have done so even if there were no meters but people certainly prefer to see DPS meters as the root of all evil in this game nowadays.Meters actually did their part to open up the close minded views on which classes you had to have and showed everyone that personal performance is much more important than strictly following builds.And of course, there will always be those who abuse any system or treat you unfairly in general. It is a part of life. We might as well take the multiplayer part out of multiplayer games if we want to absolutely stop all of this behavior.

No, its not the meters themselves... it's the developers alowing the meters that does the damage. There will always be a number of people that will stop at nothing to reach their personal goals, no matter whom they trample along the way. The less tools they have, the less damage they can do.

If you want a more healthy community where _everyone _has fun and an equal chance of getting a piece of the action, you should take away everything that puts rifts between people. Even the ability to kick during an instance run. Such actions should be performed on site by GM's that can monitor and check logs after complaints have been made. Complaints about harassment and misbehavior and such, not about low dps nonsense!

But as companies are prone to squeeze out as much profit as humanly possible you will have no GM's ingame. Instead you have lots of tools that makes it possible for a community to 'self regulate', with all the known toxic results and a relatively small group of people that are good at that on top.

I am probably going to earn a bunch of down votes for this

Not from me you don't. I never touch stuff like that. Its one of those tools i mentioned.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Henry.5713 said:I am probably going to earn a bunch of down votes for this but the meters themselves are not to blame for such behavior. The clueless or the malicious who prefer to blame others for wipes will always throw the blame at someone and would have done so even if there were no meters but people certainly prefer to see DPS meters as the root of all evil in this game nowadays.Meters actually did their part to open up the close minded views on which classes you had to have and showed everyone that personal performance is much more important than strictly following builds.And of course, there will always be those who abuse any system or treat you unfairly in general. It is a part of life. We might as well take the multiplayer part out of multiplayer games if we want to absolutely stop all of this behavior.

The negative of meters is that it encourages a culture where performance is more important that working together or simply enjoying gameplay and has a skewed view that is really only needed in raid groups. Antisocial behavior arose in mmorpgs alongside damage meters and imo it is one of the major contributing causes. Play a rpg board game or perhaps a more social rpg like LOTR with a group of friends and note the huge difference where the goal is not to be top dps.

Edit in fact that's the root of the issue isn't it, dps meters & raiding forces dps orientated classes into a glass cannon 'meta' setup which is only really needed for raiding. - what happens when you don't want to play as a glass cannon outwith raiding? Forcing a player to use a subset of the available choices to simplify into a glass cannon is poor, people trying to bully others into doing this based on meters compounds the issue.

[Jahroots.6791]

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

The negative of meters is that it encourages a culture where performance is more important that working together or simply enjoying gameplay and has a skewed view that is really only needed in raid groups. Antisocial behavior arose in mmorpgs alongside damage meters and imo it is one of the major contributing causes. Play a rpg board game or perhaps a more social rpg like LOTR with a group of friends and note the huge difference where the goal is not to be top dps.

Edit in fact that's the root of the issue isn't it, dps meters & raiding forces dps orientated classes into a glass cannon 'meta' setup which is only really needed for raiding. - what happens when you don't want to play as a glass cannon outwith raiding? Forcing a player to use a subset of the available choices to simplify into a glass cannon is poor, people trying to bully others into doing this based on meters compounds the issue.

It's not the meters that have created this culture, it's the content. Anything with a high enough possibility of failure tends to make people salty.

The current wave of instanced PVE group content has generally raised the bar of difficulty, which isn't necessarily bad, but has brought us to a place where you can't really play with having fun and being sociable foremost in mind and succeed too.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

@WARIORSCHARGEING.2637 said:can not blame you at all . when anet let the proism and elitism come into the game. that was the day the game lost its fun and way as the game was promoted to be fun . now well salt and more salt comes in these days. from the use of some of these add ons . now the really sad part is getting yelled at while you was trying to rez players back up and getting yelled at still for it

This was a thing since day 1 though. Look at open world revives, more specifically world bosses.

I think they changed the dps threshold req down the road but they cultivated this me first mentality so there was a time when NOBODY would even revive falllen players because it would take away from personal dps. Which prompted people to make parties just for dps protection.

Then they took away reviver from dalies/monthlies.

[Omar Aschi Popp.7496]

Also helloooooo. Mordrem invasion anyone?You think A net didn't know EXACTLY what was going to happen?

Edited because I type on phone.

[Venguard.2640]

Bleh, I am absolutely for meta builds, rotations and min-maxing but those people are completely obnoxious. The rotations that qT provide is for benchmark values -- ones that show the maximum potential of classes which allows of some nice quantifiable information. The idea that someone believes that it is one-and-only way of playing the classes is absurd because each encounter has a different dynamic where situational skills and rotations are used. It's just not an exercise of critical thinking of these individuals so don't take it to heart.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

@PaxTheGreatOne.9472 said:

@Jarvis.9540 said:Tonight in a t4 fractal PUG I got yelled at for temporarily attuning to water on my meta zerker elementalist (a build I've begrudgingly acquiesced into playing after seeing the party finder messages aimed at keeping my necro main from participating) after 3 of my 5 party members died, and I attempted to heal and rez everyone. I was sternly advised that my tempest is supposed to always be in fire or air. Weird. The main thing I liked about ele is its versatility and ability to hop into defense and save a party as needed. Apparently one of my party members was running "arc dps" (previously unknown to me - a tool that can show every party member's dps to each other) and saw that my dps dropped below his dead body's average numbers because he bursted the fight (ignoring mechanics) right up until he died while I tried to clean everyone up. It's a strange thing to be yelled at by a person that you are trying to save/rez because your dps numbers are dwindling while doing so.

This is my umpteenth night in a row dealing with folks shouting at each other (even if it's not always directed at me) over parsed dps numbers in higher-level fractals. I'm really tired of it.

I run fire / water / tempest regularly when groups fail to stay alive. Or I swap to an actual Auramancer build or Druid. I might consider going zealot as it tends to be enough on auramancers and druids , but I have magi and minstrel as well if a hard carry proves neccesary. But back to elementalist : Only swapping to water during my rotation gives 10 second of very light heals adding to sustain. I can fit this in my noral rotation easily. If needed with some aura's from water 4 and water 2 for vigor and regen and added regen from 5. and maybe even a few auto's and a spike from 3 if needed. If the group dies a lot they clearly have problems running meta without healing, and as such they should not complain you take some time to heal and res ppl up. I prefer to do my fractals in 1 go, even if it requires me to drop some maximum dps for options to reset the group or sustain the group without having to /gg, The gg is an automatic loss for the DPS side.... Trying to prevent a wipe is a wiser course of action then just restarting. Saying DPS is the only thing and commenting shows they cannot use the DPS meter, cause DPS is only nice if you finish an event. if not it's all useless. You can have the highest DPS in guild wars 2 but if you fail to complete content it's pointless.

The 1st thing about meta: it's fastest, as long as the group can finish content in 1 go.

If they cannot any party might be faster. Having someone healing is always a loss of DPS. And it can make your party faster if it can avoid a wipe... even with lowered DPS. Ppl who are dead connot DPS at all. Even if they killed 50+% of a boss solo it could still fail if others cannot dps or die to mechanics due to the death of the person, due to ressing or needing to drop to or from other roles to replace the casualty. Having DPS outweigh ressing downed is a very bad consequence of DPS meters, and often a reason for parties to breakup.

1 fail is so much DPS loss and it's unneeded to do pure maxed DPS rotationas long as you do not have a timer in your event.I think: If you'd be runing a group based on only power builds you could use non ferocity builds and still get higher in the end when compared to a META DPS build failing late in an encounter;..... This as ferocity adds to dmg from 150% crits to 220 %crits (ferocity only adding 50% bonus dmg to crits only)... if a meta group dies after killing a boss 50% any non ferocity build would be faster (on average DPS over the total time spend at the encounter) not having ferocity leaves a lot of styat open for heals, bunkering and such lowering chances of dying to a minimum.

Why? Because your dps might be high on arcdps , you still took 2 tries making the time used by Arc DPS a wrong figure.Arc dps (or other dps calcualtion options) will not take in account the failed attempt and doesn't reduce the real dps done in the time you had to do the engagement till finish by adding the time of the failed encounter ).If you can do 30k dps/ person and your party dies at 90% of the encounter you will have 30k/1.9 actual duration for 15.7k final dps actual on the encounter... If someone drops 5 or 10 k dps to get up some regen now and then and you get enough sustain and not die you will do 29 or 28 k dps on average and have less stree on finishing your encounter and eventually on your content. Even when a (healer/buffer/mitigator) person only does 5k dps and you drop to 25 k on avarage you'll com out ahead on 1 failed attempt.

Oh as an afterthought: In fractals I regurlarly run my necro in necro parties (condi groups or 4 necro 1 druid) They tend to be very stable an potent groups capable of doing t4 in good time. Enourmous sustain. Fails are rare. But I rarely do CM's.

Arcdps resets when encounters reset, it doesn't keep the old values calculated. Just saying.

[nosleepdemon.1368]

T4 fractals. Oh boy. Where to start? The move from T3-4 seems to be practically a paradigm shift in terms of difficulty for many players. You would think that people would know how to, for example, avoid dumping social awkwardness on their team mates. You would be wrong.

OP I have found that the only reliable way to do T4 without rage quitting is with at least one friend. Otherwise you will just keep experiencing try-hards whose only explanation for failure is "duurr hurr that guy's not meta", or whatever.

[Blaeys.3102]

It is much deeper than just dps meters. Recent developer decisions have moved GW2 away from being a game about creating a unique character and having fun to one about min-maxing and shaming anyone who doesn't play the "one true and accepted way" to play their profession.

I have to think that it has something to do with the mass exodus of developers and team leaders we saw last year. It really does feel like the game has changed directions away from the community focused friendly experience that made it so popular, and that is just sad.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Jahroots.6791 said:

@vesica tempestas.1563 said:

The negative of meters is that it encourages a culture where performance is more important that working together or simply enjoying gameplay and has a skewed view that is really only needed in raid groups. Antisocial behavior arose in mmorpgs alongside damage meters and imo it is one of the major contributing causes. Play a rpg board game or perhaps a more social rpg like LOTR with a group of friends and note the huge difference where the goal is not to be top dps.

Edit in fact that's the root of the issue isn't it, dps meters & raiding forces dps orientated classes into a glass cannon 'meta' setup which is only really needed for raiding. - what happens when you don't want to play as a glass cannon outwith raiding? Forcing a player to use a subset of the available choices to simplify into a glass cannon is poor, people trying to bully others into doing this based on meters compounds the issue.

It's not the meters that have created this culture, it's the content. Anything with a high enough possibility of failure tends to make people salty.

The current wave of instanced PVE group content has generally raised the bar of difficulty, which isn't necessarily bad, but has brought us to a place where you can't really play with having fun and being sociable foremost in mind

and

succeed too.

I agree with this in that there is major negative side effect of highly tuned, time related fights in that it encourages min-maxing, and min-maxing = glass cannon for dps classes regardless of skill diversity and fun. There is also an element of human behavior where some people who would normally be perfectly pleasant act differently while being measured (a form of implicit peer pressure).

For me the best fights are those that are challenging but do not have a time element to them - that gives scope for multiple strategies and a more relaxed atmosphere where people have more freedom to explore the builds they enjoy.

[Helbjorne.9368]

@Blaeys.3102 said:It is much deeper than just dps meters. Recent developer decisions have moved GW2 away from being a game about creating a unique character and having fun to one about min-maxing and shaming anyone who doesn't play the "one true and accepted way" to play their profession.

I have to think that it has something to do with the mass exodus of developers and team leaders we saw last year. It really does feel like the game has changed directions away from the community focused friendly experience that made it so popular, and that is just sad.

I've always been a min-maxer, and just because someone wants to be a competitive player, whether it's through PvE or PvP, that doesn't make them an inherently "toxic" or unfun player. The issue is that given the current state of most professions there are clear cut BiS builds that are objectively more efficient than any other build, and not by a small margin either. This falls onto profession balancing, or the lack thereof. Due to poor balancing and outdated traits, skills, and weapons, players are no longer able to 'play their way' and still be relatively competitive. No one's going to care what build you're running if you're pulling 25k+ DPS, but unfortunately the amount of builds that are capable of pulling that for each class are limited to only one or two, and that's a design issue, not a player issue.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:It is much deeper than just dps meters. Recent developer decisions have moved GW2 away from being a game about creating a unique character and having fun to one about min-maxing and shaming anyone who doesn't play the "one true and accepted way" to play their profession.

I have to think that it has something to do with the mass exodus of developers and team leaders we saw last year. It really does feel like the game has changed directions away from the community focused friendly experience that made it so popular, and that is just sad.

I've always been a min-maxer, and just because someone wants to be a competitive player, whether it's through PvE or PvP, that doesn't make them an inherently "toxic" or unfun player. The issue is that given the current state of most professions there are clear cut BiS builds that are objectively more efficient than any other build, and not by a small margin either. This falls onto profession balancing, or the lack thereof. Due to poor balancing and outdated traits, skills, and weapons, players are no longer able to 'play their way' and still be relatively competitive. No one's going to care what build you're running if you're pulling 25k+ DPS, but unfortunately the amount of builds that are capable of pulling that for each class are limited to only one or two, and that's a design issue, not a player issue.

Nothing wrong with being a min-maxer if thats what you enjoy. The only issue is the pressure on people to do meta i.e glass cannon by others who cannot see beyond their own goals. 99% of content does not need glass cannon/meta build, and many players couldn't care less that the build they enjoy is not at 25K, but yet even though viable, many players who focus on meta will be rude to others because to them its all about the numbers. If a player does not want to play glass cannon then that should be respected as long as the build is viable. Diversity is healthy, respect is good.

[Syktek.7912]

@Helbjorne.9368 said:

@Blaeys.3102 said:It is much deeper than just dps meters. Recent developer decisions have moved GW2 away from being a game about creating a unique character and having fun to one about min-maxing and shaming anyone who doesn't play the "one true and accepted way" to play their profession.

I have to think that it has something to do with the mass exodus of developers and team leaders we saw last year. It really does feel like the game has changed directions away from the community focused friendly experience that made it so popular, and that is just sad.

I've always been a min-maxer, and just because someone wants to be a competitive player, whether it's through PvE or PvP, that doesn't make them an inherently "toxic" or unfun player. The issue is that given the current state of most professions there are clear cut BiS builds that are objectively more efficient than any other build, and not by a small margin either. This falls onto profession balancing, or the lack thereof. Due to poor balancing and outdated traits, skills, and weapons, players are no longer able to 'play their way' and still be relatively competitive. No one's going to care what build you're running if you're pulling 25k+ DPS, but unfortunately the amount of builds that are capable of pulling that for each class are limited to only one or two, and that's a design issue, not a player issue.

Even further. I feel having one or two builds per class having insane DPS is okay. It's just that those builds need to be easily accessible, not hidden behind expensive stats that take 300 gold to get because community has a grip on the market's balls and the items needed would take hours, upon hours of farming to get otherwise. Those of us who have the builds and choose to play them correctly are doing so out of a wish to be efficient and there's no toxicity there.

[Shirlias.8104]

To me is fine, but only if they put that into party descritption "fast run. no noobs. dpsm." etc...