I hate what DPS meters have done to PVE endgame...

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

@sigur.9453 said:So were AP points. No reason to remove them from the game though.

I don't think it's a simple case of "let's remove them from the game", because there are obviously a lot of people who enjoy the addition of DPS meters. Rather, I think what needs to be done is for ANet to support them more directly, and implement them in the game in such a manner so as to be able to control their functionality more carefully. For example, one of the suggestions I used to see pop up often was that DPS meters could be added, but would only show your personal DPS. That way players could use them as tools for self improvement, but at the same time they couldn't be abused in mud slinging contests against other players.

Irrespective of which course you take though, one thing ANet should NOT do is ignore the fact that some players do have an issue with the addition of DPS meters and that the system can and is sometimes abused. I also don't think anyone should be against discussions about these kinds of concerns, because they are pertinent and people do have the right to bring them up. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them of course, but I find it's better to add to the discussion and give your own thoughts on the matter, than simply brush it off as nonsense. After all, maybe people will find some useful advice or be able to see from a viewpoint they could not perceive before by looking at posts from players of a different mind to themselves.

[sigur.9453]

For example, one of the suggestions I used to see pop up often was that DPS meters could be added, but would only show your personal DPS. That way players could use them as tools for self improvement, but at the same time they couldn't be abused in mud slinging contests against other players.

And then we would be back to a strict "you need to play that class as dps"-meta. Also called "we are lacking DPS so we cleary must kick the powerMesmer" So that would just reset all we gained from DpsMeters.

Irrespective of which course you take though, one thing ANet should NOT do is ignore the fact that some players do have an issue with the addition of DPS meters and that the system can and is sometimes abused. I also don't think anyone should be against discussions about these kinds of concerns, because they are pertinent and people do have the right to bring them up. It doesn't mean you have to agree with them of course, but I find it's better to add to the discussion and give your own thoughts on the matter, than simply brush it off as nonsense. After all, maybe people will find some useful advice or be able to see from a viewpoint they could not perceive before by looking at posts from players of a different mind to themselves.

We are beating a dead horse for the x-amount of time already.

Solution (already stated here many many times):

Form your own group with likeminded people.

It doesn´t get easier then that. 2 clicks away from happieness. Problem solved.

SO whats left to discuss?Srysly?

[Abakk.9176]

@sigur.9453 said:Form your own group with likeminded people.

I know that seems like a valid piece of advise but when you think of it there is one very big flaw.

If we all did it there wouldn't be any 'likeminded' people to fill our group with because they would all be trying to make their own group.

So, what is discussed is the question if such a tool should be allowed. I say no because in every community there are always people that abuse everything they get their hands on and make life difficult and miserable for others. The less tools, the better.

[sigur.9453]

@Abakk.9176 said:

So, what is discussed is the question if such a tool should be allowed. I say no because in every community there are always people that abuse everything they get their hands on and make life difficult and miserable for others. The less tools, the better.

And say yes, because there will always be people that will find something to abuse. It makes ingame life for me and other less difficult, so more tools the better.So where does this get us? Nowhere

[Abakk.9176]

@sigur.9453 said:And say yes, because there will always be people that will find something to abuse.

Doesn't mean one should allow tools that make their life easier and ours harder.

It makes ingame life for me and other less difficult, so more tools the better.

Easier as in spotting 'the weakest link' give them a mouthfull and kick them. Yeah that is exactly what i am dead against. Better performance is also achieved by advising people and practise runs.

So where does this get us? Nowhere

It gets us in a spot where we can get to discuss and/or get a handle on misuse of addons and limiting verbal abuse and pointless harassment in online games.

Quite the opposite from 'nowhere' i would say.

[sigur.9453]

@Abakk.9176 said:

Easier as in spotting 'the weakest link' give them a mouthfull and kick them. Yeah that is exactly what i am dead against. Better performance is also achieved by advising people and practise runs.

You are quite fast putting me in a corner. (i don´t know if this phrase is a thing in english)Please don´t generalize.Edit: also there are far enough trainings run. Don´t expect a killrun group to first explain you the bossIt gets us in a spot where we can get to discuss and/or get a handle on misuse of addons and limiting verbal abuse and pointless harassment in online games.

Quite the opposite from 'nowhere' i would say.

All i see is opinions and reports, no disscusion.

If someone treats you bad--> leave the group, block him/her, only run with people you now,...

Again: This are valid solutions.IF (!) any of your problems can´t be solved with any of this advices please let me know.

[Abakk.9176]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:

Easier as in spotting 'the weakest link' give them a mouthfull and kick them. Yeah that is exactly what i am dead against. Better performance is also achieved by advising people and practise runs.

You are quite fast putting me in a corner. (i don´t know if this phrase is a thing in english)Please don´t generalize.Edit: also there are far enough trainings run. Don´t expect a killrun group to first explain you the bossIt gets us in a spot where we can get to discuss and/or get a handle on misuse of addons and limiting verbal abuse and pointless harassment in online games.

Quite the opposite from 'nowhere' i would say.

All i see is opinions and reports, no disscusion.

If someone treats you bad--> leave the group, block him/her, only run with people you now,...

Again: This are valid solutions.

Its all about ways to justify the use of tools/addons.

Why do we play a game that is Multiplayer and RPG? - Because we like stories in the Fantasy setting AND we like to do that with others.

Playing with people to enjoy ourselves and others in a setting that appeals to our love for Fantasy and adventure doesn't need tools to measure our fellow players measurables for the sole purpose of bettering ourselves at the cost of someone elses enjoyment. The two should not exist side by side in the same game!

If someone wants to compete with others they should find/make a game in wich that is central to the gameplay. Not tool up the wrong game so we can have our way anyway and spoil it for all the others in the process.

Like someone else pointed out earlier. It would be okay to me if a tool like that could only measure ones own output in order to improve oneself, if that is what you go for. Not measure up a total stranger and chew them out because 'they wasted your time' and 'made you carry them'.

IF (!) any of your problems can´t be solved with any of this advices please let me know.

I have no problems and therefore no need of your 'advise'.

Arenanet made a game where people can swarm together, support and help eachother and resssurect the fallen, to attack an enemy without grouping up and without means or need to pass judgement over eachother. That is currently the part i play. Partly forced to because of people using tools.

In this thread i support the people that don't want toxic tools to take over their game just so an elite few can have their way with everything and everyone, or even be tempted to do so.

[sigur.9453]

Yes, thats a good opinion to have.

[Svarty.8019]

Raids do what raids always do.

[Abakk.9176]

@sigur.9453 said:Yes, thats a good opinion to have.

Which one?

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Abakk.9176 said:Arenanet made a game where people can swarm together, support and help eachother and resssurect the fallen, to attack an enemy without grouping up and without means or need to pass judgement over eachother.

They also made WvW, PvP, dungeons, fractals and raids. They did not only make openworld.

[Abakk.9176]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:

@Abakk.9176 said:Arenanet made a game where people can swarm together, support and help eachother and resssurect the fallen, to attack an enemy without grouping up and without means or need to pass judgement over eachother.

They also made WvW, PvP, dungeons, fractals and raids. They did not only make openworld.

Same game, same reasoning.

No need for toxic tools there either.

[sigur.9453]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@sigur.9453 said:Yes, thats a good opinion to have.

Which one?

well yours. mine is as you will quess different.And this opinon is also part of "your" game.

[TheRandomGuy.7246]

@Abakk.9176 said:Same game, same reasoning.

Different game modes, different design and target audience. Btw tools can't be toxic. "d3d9.dll" did not kick or insult anyone.

[Abakk.9176]

@TheRandomGuy.7246 said:Different game modes, different design and target audience.

Unless the addons can detect the gamemode it is still the same issue. But to be honest, what goes for one goes for the other.

Btw tools can't be toxic. "d3d9.dll" did not kick or insult anyone.

Shame isn't it.

But you can still hope that one day someone finds a way to program a tool that abuses and kicks on detection of 'bad player'.

That would be about as 'easy' as it could get. :)

[sigur.9453]

But you can still hope that one day someone finds a way to program a tool that abuses and kicks on detection of 'bad player'.

There are no "bad players" ,there are only players that aren´t as good as the others in their group.all a mather of perspectiv, all which mentioned many, many times can be prevented

[polarbear.2497]

@Jarvis.9540 said:Tonight in a t4 fractal PUG I got yelled at for temporarily attuning to water on my meta zerker elementalist (a build I've begrudgingly acquiesced into playing after seeing the party finder messages aimed at keeping my necro main from participating) after 3 of my 5 party members died, and I attempted to heal and rez everyone. I was sternly advised that my tempest is supposed to always be in fire or air. Weird. The main thing I liked about ele is its versatility and ability to hop into defense and save a party as needed. Apparently one of my party members was running "arc dps" (previously unknown to me - a tool that can show every party member's dps to each other) and saw that my dps dropped below his dead body's average numbers because he bursted the fight (ignoring mechanics) right up until he died while I tried to clean everyone up. It's a strange thing to be yelled at by a person that you are trying to save/rez because your dps numbers are dwindling while doing so.

This is my umpteenth night in a row dealing with folks shouting at each other (even if it's not always directed at me) over parsed dps numbers in higher-level fractals. I'm really tired of it.

I understand your frustration - but it's the people who are the problem - not the tools. Even without a DPS meter they exclude certain classes / builds etc. My best advice is to join a guild that does regular T4 runs and is friendly and inclusive. If you're looking for one, my guild is recruiting. We'll never yell at you or kick you from a party! Feel free to contact me: polarbear.2497.

[Yolanda Hardass.8045]

I do T4 everyday, and sure, you'll run into one or two DPS overlords from time to time. The thing I run into most - and I have to mention that I can count these encounters on the fingers of my one hand - is saltiness because one or two guys got downed, and then screaming at them as to why they got downed. Dang, sometimes the enemy just completely focuses on you, and you eventually run out of blocks and heals (looking at you Champion Molten Effigy), why not just get over there and rez the fallen comrade because 5 is better than 4. According to my experiences, these are in the minority, but as in life, you'll always find someone that thinks they are better than you.

[mazut.4296]

Few hours ago joined a raid grp that was looking for 400LI+ and the leader kicked a dude for doing low damage. But the overall group was a 50LI group. That is a super toxic side of the dps meter. disgusting...

[Pyroatheist.9031]

DPS meters when used appropriately give extra flexibility to team choices than you would otherwise see. I was running a t4 daily set with my buddy the other night and we had a base necro (not reaper) join us. We were a bit sceptical, but figured we'd give it a shot regardless. Thanks to the Dps meters we ran we were able to confirm that the necro was performing quite appropriately, so we had no complaints.

Without the use of DPS meters though, we may have kicked before starting just to eliminate that liability.

[Aomine.5012]

Agree with you completely.

I remembered there were a similar topic in old GW2 forum discussing about the same exact issue.There were a guy telling me that: "In T4 fractal, most power spec does not deserve to exist and you're just expecting to be carried and you don't deserve a spot if you don't use the top dps meta condition spec." (DH being the exception here ofc).

When this degree of Elitism exist even outside of Raid, the game pretty much becomes unfun.

Edit: And I got a downvote for just quoting a claim I heard from other person .

[MedievalThings.5417]

My only real problem with the dps meters, is that the people that made them included the ability to see other players gear (without linking) in most of them. And, despite being against the ToS, it seems that people ARE using that feature regularly.

[Abakk.9176]

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:DPS meters when used appropriately give extra flexibility to team choices than you would otherwise see. I was running a t4 daily set with my buddy the other night and we had a base necro (not reaper) join us. We were a bit sceptical, but figured we'd give it a shot regardless. Thanks to the Dps meters we ran we were able to confirm that the necro was performing quite appropriately, so we had no complaints.

Without the use of DPS meters though, we may have kicked before starting just to eliminate that liability.

"..eliminate that liability"

*Picks up jaw from the floor...

[Pyroatheist.9031]

@Abakk.9176 said:

@Pyroatheist.9031 said:DPS meters when used appropriately give extra flexibility to team choices than you would otherwise see. I was running a t4 daily set with my buddy the other night and we had a base necro (not reaper) join us. We were a bit sceptical, but figured we'd give it a shot regardless. Thanks to the Dps meters we ran we were able to confirm that the necro was performing quite appropriately, so we had no complaints.

Without the use of DPS meters though, we may have kicked before starting just to eliminate that liability.

"..eliminate that liability"

*Picks up jaw from the floor...

When I'm doing T4 fractals, I like to do them with a minimum of fuss. This means making sure that everyone in the party is at least reasonably capable of contributing. Vanilla necro is already at a disadvantage compared to reaper for DPS. Account for varying player skill and you get a liability.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@Shirlias.8104 said:To me is fine, but only if they put that into party descritption "fast run. no noobs. dpsm." etc...

Lol says it all really about that type of thinking, and agree if advertised then that's fair enough.> @Pyroatheist.9031 said:

DPS meters when used appropriately give extra flexibility to team choices than you would otherwise see. I was running a t4 daily set with my buddy the other night and we had a base necro (not reaper) join us. We were a bit sceptical, but figured we'd give it a shot regardless. Thanks to the Dps meters we ran we were able to confirm that the necro was performing quite appropriately, so we had no complaints.

Without the use of DPS meters though, we may have kicked before starting just to eliminate that liability.

Eliminate that liability eh, thats the telling comment right there. Tell me what would you do with a player that is perfectly viable but not optimal and does not want to play glass cannon ?