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Funny thing


Grand Marshal.4098

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Let's sit down and compare the blue kid of anet with our titan.

Willbender vs Berserker. 

Zerker

For Savage Instinct to proc, you require almost 28 seconds. Let's see how much we can buff it with traits (no tempest rune). 28 seconds with Discipline that is, for a mechanic Stunbreak that absorbs all inc power damage for 2 sec. 

If you spec for Defense (losing a lot of power dmg, as I won't compare condi builds), you can use RI for 1000 toughness and some little healing on SI post headbutt. 

And you can get some stability/might and not get a toughness penalty with eternal champion..losing even more dmg for a measly 1 stack of stab (plus 1 on stunbreak) and a toughness buff every 28 seconds for this particular skill and some swiftness from burst mastery.

  • 1 stunbreak stab stack, 1 stab stack via trait, 3 might stacks via trait, some swiftness via trait
  • 1000 toughness and 1000 healing on stunbreak
  • Ignore strike dmg for 2 seconds
  • 28 seconds

Willy

Grants swiftness via traits, resistance, protection, resolution, continuous stability, aoe stunbreaks, aoe stab, aoe aegis, is a 600 range port with a 25 seconds cooldown. I am not sure how the aegis interacts if you pick the courage GM tho. Maybe it balances it a bit in the boons department, but not getting downed while having courage is by all means stronger than Strike dmg reduction for 2 secs via SI, especially if you manage to upkeep courage for 10 seconds. 

  • Aegis, stunbreak stab stack, aoe stunbreak stab 3 stacks via trait, swiftness via trait
  • 600 range port
  • resistance, protection, resolution
  • 25 seconds

We can go into the numbers more accurately, but that's just some quick summary and comparison of the stunbreak mechanics on 2 specs. Willbender can seriously outdamage Berserker in a competetive setting with the added mobility and Berserker has to choose a trait to remove it's weakness, let alone gain increased stats like power or toughness.

So which one do you prefer, the one that forces you into 3 traitlines with minimum dmg options in traits, or the one which allows you to choose a random line and still get massive increases in dmg with no defensive cost (Virtues).

Nothing new ofc, as we know what guardian is. 

Like, ok they pulled up the ideas from the omnibus but kitten, give something to us!

 

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@Grand Marshal.4098 What hurts me the most is that they swiped so many ideas from many of my Ideas about berserker rework and the support monk warrior and then mashed them together While CMC used the same reasoning I wrote in the omnibus in the Elite spec reveal all the while I got the totally unnecessary Bladesworn that has so many drawbacks to it that feels like it is made by an intern and out of spite against everything that was said in the Omnibus thread.

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36 minutes ago, Vancho.8750 said:

@Grand Marshal.4098 What hurts me the most is that they swiped so many ideas from many of my Ideas about berserker rework and the support monk warrior and then mashed them together While CMC used the same reasoning I wrote in the omnibus in the Elite spec reveal all the while I got the totally unnecessary Bladesworn that has so many drawbacks to it that feels like it is made by an intern and out of spite against everything that was said in the Omnibus thread.

In wvw, i see shoutsworn I gunflame. So far no BsW has come close to threatening me. Oh kitten I hope they dont nerf gunflame!

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Class designed is so clearly biased in this game that it is borderline unprofessional.

 

But its been like this since forever so I wouldnt expect it to change. Just accept that in this game, classes are not equals and that some will just be better than others. Accept that this is how it is, this is GW2 and stop idealizing a balanced game because it will never happen. GW2 doesn't even try it.

 

Guardians will always be better than everyone else because they are desgined to be better. Warriors will always be worse because thats how they want it. Not because of a math oopsie. It is on purpose.

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and willbender does a gazillion times more aoe damage

i can't tell you how many times i melt 3 people(2 full hp trying to res a downed) in like 3 seconds.

more time i've ever gotten with berserker since it's release

 

whirling wrath not only a moving hundred blade but a better arc divider too

Edited by Lighter.5631
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It's Arenanet, of course Berserker is worse than the blue lovechild.

Arenanet even went out of their way to give it a dework with the singular purpose to make it worse.

Arenanet has sufficiently proven with the continued mistreatment of Warrior that we can objectively consider it as a fact that they want Warrior to be the worst profession with no competition.

Anyone defending this malpractice is not worth considering for reasonable discussions.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I guess when half the population plays guard and necro, you gotta make their new specs good... They've dug their own grave honestly. You cant nerf either profession too much at this point, imagine the rivers of tears.

Exactly, combined they nearly reach 300k total hours to Warriors Bottom of the group 40k when you look at recent play times. They can't nerf necro's/Guardians cause basically most players in the entire game are playing those 2 classes. That's why they get all the good stuff. 

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30 minutes ago, alcopaul.2156 said:

mesmer (or other mod via specialization) = evade evade block block, heal heal, invis invis, clone clone goto evade evade and you're dead coz it can do all of those mentioned and dealing damage AT THE SAME TIME.

Ideally.......

I'm just bad

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8 hours ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Exactly, combined they nearly reach 300k total hours to Warriors Bottom of the group 40k when you look at recent play times.

We don't even know accurate average play times, as Arenanet doesn't release their statistics. And GW2efficiency is no accurate indicator, as most players, especially casual players, are not registered there.

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Guardian and warrior are very different from their very fondation. I'm not sure comparing zerker and willbender is a proper thing to do.

Let's just keep in mind that one can also say things like:

- "I can't reach 250% crit damage with guardian while I can go beyond 300% easily with warrior."

or

- "My guardian only have 11k hp base while warrior have 19k."

Those are things around which balance revolve so it's perfectly natural that other things, like traits, from both professions have differences.

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2 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Guardian and warrior are very different from their very fondation. I'm not sure comparing zerker and willbender is a proper thing to do.

Let's just keep in mind that one can also say things like:

- "I can't reach 250% crit damage with guardian while I can go beyond 300% easily with warrior."

or

- "My guardian only have 11k hp base while warrior have 19k."

Those are things around which balance revolve so it's perfectly natural that other things, like traits, from both professions have differences.

Guard however is mentioned a lot more in patches and has a meta build in every game mode. Its a lot better maintained than war (which is getting a banner rework after what feels like years of neglect).

To be fair they buffed bladesworn too, not only willbender. So in the case of new specs they are trying to make them playable (with mostly number tweaking cause reasons).

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2 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Guard however is mentioned a lot more in patches and has a meta build in every game mode. Its a lot better maintained than war (which is getting a banner rework after what feels like years of neglect).

To be fair they buffed bladesworn too, not only willbender. So in the case of new specs they are trying to make them playable (with mostly number tweaking cause reasons).

You could also see this as guardian needing a lot of nerf for "sPvP" sake while warrior don't. Being mentioned in a patch isn't necessarily a good thing. Also, people are seldom satisfied with the various patch and tend to forget that they happen.

As for number tweaking... That's the dev's sin. It seem they just can't accept when something is broken and that the only solution is to tweak numbers (usually around the broken thing in order to make it fit within the whole). They've done that since release of the game...

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17 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

You could also see this as guardian needing a lot of nerf for "sPvP" sake while warrior don't.

Where guard is op, needs attention and gets it. War needs buffs and gets no attention. "War is perfectly balanced" where competitive is overall unbalanced (and remains so) doesnt work.

Edited by Hotride.2187
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4 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

We don't even know accurate average play times, as Arenanet doesn't release their statistics. And GW2efficiency is no accurate indicator, as most players, especially casual players, are not registered there.

Its still the information we have to go on, and the information we have, is that. I was just stating facts. 
Most players who would want the information of these stats, are on there. Which does still make it relevant. You can also easily see this in game. Its not hard to notice. 

So yes, it is an accurate indicator. Otherwise, why else would those 2 classes get slaps on the wrist while Warriors lose entire mechanics? 

Edited by Gorem.8104
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3 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Guardian and warrior are very different from their very fondation. I'm not sure comparing zerker and willbender is a proper thing to do.

Let's just keep in mind that one can also say things like:

- "I can't reach 250% crit damage with guardian while I can go beyond 300% easily with warrior."

or

- "My guardian only have 11k hp base while warrior have 19k."

Those are things around which balance revolve so it's perfectly natural that other things, like traits, from both professions have differences.

Yeah totally. 

 

What was being examined here was how both specs have a somewhat similar ability in their profession mechanic stunbreaking. Which is what is being examined upon. 

How much can both classes buff their profession stunbreak without losing too much and seeing what they gain out of it. I'd say Berserker falls short on that, with some glorified unstrippable protection (don't get me wrong tho Rousing Resilience is a great trait but still needs a buff or small change imo), a measly 2 stab stacks when traited, some might which may not even synergize with might heal since you need discipline and defense to make it an OK stunbreak and immunity to strike dmg for 2 seconds, nothing aegis spam can't do for much longer periods of time. 

 

Added condition dmg reduction via resistance and resolution, none of which berserker has access too and a port which helps with escaping, while Zerker gets that useless burst of aggression proc of 3 sec of SS every 28 seconds. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Gorem.8104 said:

Most players who would want the information of these stats, are on there. Which does still make it relevant. You can also easily see this in game. Its not hard to notice.

It's merely an indicator for players who are aiming to be more effective at parts of the game, which is a heavily biased minority. Unless you are trying to say the unregistered majority is of no worth to statistics, gw2efficiency's data is pointless for the bigger picture.

For all we know, the majority of the player base could actually be playing ranger most of the time and it wouldn't come up in your biased data, because the majority of the player base is not part of that data.

Unless Arenanet gives us official data encompassing the entire player base, there is no data that's viable for interpretation.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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5 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Guardian and warrior are very different from their very fondation. I'm not sure comparing zerker and willbender is a proper thing to do.

Let's just keep in mind that one can also say things like:

- "I can't reach 250% crit damage with guardian while I can go beyond 300% easily with warrior."

or

- "My guardian only have 11k hp base while warrior have 19k."

Those are things around which balance revolve so it's perfectly natural that other things, like traits, from both professions have differences.

Nah, let em do it. We're not concerned with the trait differences; we're concerned with the play we can expect to see for each class stemming from those trait differences. 


The fact that there are fundamental differences between the classes should not stop us from thinking about the way those differences affect the game and the functionality of the classes that play it, otherwise we would never be able to adequately discern balancing issues that arise from people thinking class differences either excuse or explain balancing directions on either class being discussed.

Guardian can't reach 300% crit damage, but warrior can? Okay. Then the question we should be asking is how often can each class get in position to do damage across the board with the build that lets them do that, and is that fair? (Including notes like the associated crit rates and other stats with those builds).

Warriors get 19k HP while guardians get 11? Okay. Given the context of how many defensive skills the class in question has to protect that hp, what experiences are those classes having? Is that a fair expectation for the class given their base HP? (Unless you wish to argue instead that 8k HP is in and of itself a suitable defense in which case I wish you godpseed)

Those contexts may not always be included in posts doing comparisons, but they should always be included either by the OP or by the people reading the thread that have a hangup.

Sometimes, after supplementing that context, the argument falls apart, as it should.

But if, after supplementing that context, you still see a problem, maybe it's time to talk about balance (which is really the endgoal here, not the comparison between two classes with the purpose of buffing or nerfing one based on the other). 


The classes can be as different in foundation as they want. They all have one similarity though: at some point they will be used to fight another class in a pvp setting. 

 

 

Edited by Azure The Heartless.3261
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16 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

Guardian and warrior are very different from their very fondation. I'm not sure comparing zerker and willbender is a proper thing to do.

Let's just keep in mind that one can also say things like:

- "I can't reach 250% crit damage with guardian while I can go beyond 300% easily with warrior."

or

- "My guardian only have 11k hp base while warrior have 19k."

Those are things around which balance revolve so it's perfectly natural that other things, like traits, from both professions have differences.

except the fact that meta willbender build has 19k HP in pvp, and it out performs any 19k hp berserker build in damage, mobility, utility, sustain and every single category that ever existed in a build. while being both heavy armor and 19k hp

Edited by felix.2386
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