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Reaper Spec


Malus.2184

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ANet, when you get around to doing the balance patch you should change the Reaper Shroud so that it only eats at most 50% of the damage taken. Having it eat 100% is grossly overpowered since it's effectively an ablative health bar. In addition because the Reaper can get punted out of Shroud relatively easily due to the aforementioned the Skills in Shroud also have to be extraordinarily strong. This makes sense in a high-risk-high-reward playstyle, however, the effective result of these two things combined is that Reaper is no-risk-high-reward since when they're in trouble they can activate their Shroud. Before this they also have all their other Skills they can use before they enter Shroud. This gives then an addtional five new Skills. In addition to this, they also have weapon swap. So, a total of 15 different attack Skills, one healing Skill, three Utility Skills, and one Ultimate Skill. Except going into Shroud is also a Utility Skill in itself since it gives  the tangial benefit of serving as additional health.

For other specs that have a similar effect activating their special effect only gives them access to a new set of skills rather than it having an intrinsic effect on top of that.

The sheer amount of Skills to use was also the rationale to limit the Bladeseworn from being able to switch weapons. Likewise, the same rationale was employed for Engineers since they have kits Yet, Reaper skirts right past that.

To remain consistent Reapers should be disallowed from swapping weapons due to the Reaper Shroud effectively being a weapon swap. That the Reaper can do this puts it comparatively in a higher effectiveness tier than either who gives up a lot for their special abilities. This means that a Reaper can have a Scepter on hand to either boon strip or corrupt boons, which in itself is a massive utility. Scepter is a condi weapon, however, this means nothing as the Reaper can still have a power weapon and go into Reaper Shroud which is also can, effectively, be a power weapon, even though traits exists that can make it condi. It's the only spec in the game that effectively has three weapon sets, on top of that it has an ablative health bar. Reaper Shroud is also unaffected by the weapon swap cooldown. This means that a Reaper can use the Scepter to affect Boons and then instantly go into Reaper Shroud, be completely unaffected by what comes their way, and do massive damage.

All of these combined creates a force multiplier effect that makes the Reaper increase in a level of effectiveness that's outside that of what most other specs. Do you want a team only of Reapers? No, because then you'd lose access to some things that the Reaper is unable to bring, however, having one is a benefit to team, espcially a pug, as it can effectively count as almost two people.

Edited by Malus.2184
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2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Do you want a team only of Reapers?

If it hasn't been a thing since HoT release (7 years ago) then it will probably never be a thing.

Specs with 3 (or more) weaponsets are legion, it's not just the reaper. For all it's worth:

- an elementalist can build for 4x5 (weapon skills) + 4x5 (conjure skills) + 1 heal + extra like dual attunment skill/overload/jade sphere for more than 40 skills both offensive and defensive.

- An engineer can build for 5 (weapon skills) + 5x5 (kit) + 5 (holoforge skills) + 4 (toolbelt skills) for close to 40 skills both offensive and defensive.

- A guardian can build for 2x5 (weapon skills) + 3x5 (tomes) + 1 heal + 3 utilities + 1 ultimate for 30 skills

- A necromancer can build for, at most, 2x5 (weapon skills) + 5 (shroud) + 5 (lich form) + 3 utilities +1 heal for 24 skills (let's be generous and say 26, taking into account entering and exiting shroud).

The number of skills a spec can use isn't what will determine whether a professions dominate sPvP or not. "More" doesn't mean "better".

 

Edited by Dadnir.5038
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6 hours ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

"More" doesn't mean "better".

 

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9 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

To remain consistent Reapers should be disallowed from swapping weapons due to the Reaper Shroud effectively being a weapon swap. That the Reaper can do this puts it comparatively in a higher effectiveness tier than either who gives up a lot for their special abilities. This means that a Reaper can have a Scepter on hand to either boon strip or corrupt boons, which in itself is a massive utility. Scepter is a condi weapon, however, this means nothing as the Reaper can still have a power weapon and go into Reaper Shroud which is also can, effectively, be a power weapon, even though traits exists that can make it condi. It's the only spec in the game that effectively has three weapon sets, on top of that it has an ablative health bar. Reaper Shroud is also unaffected by the weapon swap cooldown. This means that a Reaper can use the Scepter to affect Boons and then instantly go into Reaper Shroud, be completely unaffected by what comes their way, and do massive damage.

All of these combined creates a force multiplier effect that makes the Reaper increase in a level of effectiveness that's outside that of what most other specs. Do you want a team only of Reapers? No, because then you'd lose access to some things that the Reaper is unable to bring, however, having one is a benefit to team, espcially a pug, as it can effectively count as almost two people.

 

Just a question: You get that EOD is acutally out and the new specc dominate SPVP? Or are u trapped in the past?

In that case: Mate! invest in BitCoin. You will be super ritch! Believe me!!!!

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37 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

 

Just a question: You get that EOD is acutally out and the new specc dominate SPVP? Or are u trapped in the past?

In that case: Mate! invest in BitCoin. You will be super ritch! Believe me!!!!

So, you just want to dodge the argument by doing a whataboutism? I'll give you 8/10 politicians.

Edited by Malus.2184
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1 hour ago, Bale.3851 said:

Just a question: You get that EOD is acutally out and the new specc dominate SPVP? Or are u trapped in the past?

To be fair new specs being even more broken is not a reason to not address older broken specs.

But for reaper... it needs a support to shine. Its really the guard and necro combo that is too much (basically in every game mode), not reaper itself.

Though reaper shroud reduction decrease to 33% IN PVE ONLY was hilarious to read in the patch notes.

IMO dont take away the 1 power build necro can run.

Edited by Hotride.2187
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9 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

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We are very happy to see that Szepter has increased in popularity after the last patch and want to continue that trend. 

Shatterstone has been renamed to Shatterice. 

Dmg buffed by 3%.

Cooldown increased by 2 seconds to compensate. 

We will watch this change closely to see if this makes Shatterice to strong in PvP and will make further adjustments in the next balance patch. 8 months from now. 

 

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14 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

To be fair new specs being even more broken is not a reason to not address older broken specs.

But for reaper... it needs a support to shine. Its really the guard and necro combo that is too much (basically in every game mode), not reaper itself.

Though reaper shroud reduction decrease to 33% IN PVE ONLY was hilarious to read in the patch notes.

IMO dont take away the 1 power build necro can run.

Hey, if they survive with the 33% reduction instead of 50% in PvE where damage can be a LOT higher, then that means they can survive with less than 33% reduction in PvP/WvW right?

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15 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

So, you just want to dodge the argument by doing a whataboutism? I'll give you 8/10 politicians.

 

What argument? You are acutally telling bull.sh.it. with how more skills are unfair and lead to oppressive gameplay of reaper. Following your logic ele should be pvp class number 1 and ingi should play with 5 kits cause u know more skills....

 

Leaving you with the 50% dmg reduction in shroud. Which anet clearly missed. But i dont need 3 Pages to name this problem. Also reaper for itself is fine. Just if paired with support it becomes oppressive. But this is also shifting with willbender/ support being the new go to comb (can burst more often and more mobility). 

 

So what is there to discuss? 3/10 troll.

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1 hour ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Hey, if they survive with the 33% reduction instead of 50% in PvE where damage can be a LOT higher, then that means they can survive with less than 33% reduction in PvP/WvW right?

Well I'm sure survivability will still be good enough, but necro mains? Dunno, spoiled players take some things for granted and it affects the playing style 🙂 Nearly every reaper I fight in wvw just goes ham with the CDs and then dies after I dodge, block and stunbreak everything.

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21 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

 

What argument? You are acutally telling bull.sh.it. with how more skills are unfair and lead to oppressive gameplay of reaper. Following your logic ele should be pvp class number 1 and ingi should play with 5 kits cause u know more skills....

 

Leaving you with the 50% dmg reduction in shroud. Which anet clearly missed. But i dont need 3 Pages to name this problem. Also reaper for itself is fine. Just if paired with support it becomes oppressive. But this is also shifting with willbender/ support being the new go to comb (can burst more often and more mobility). 

 

So what is there to discuss? 3/10 troll.

Ele only have one weapon set. While they do have 20 attack Skills switching activates a shared cooldown before you can go into a new one, like Weapon Swaps. Reaper can use one, then go into Shroud, get a new set, and can most often use the weapon again when it ends, and then swap to their other weapon. Comparing the two is a "whataboutism."

For an Engineer, using those skills takes up another skill who can be used for nothing else than that. No utility in the Skill itself at all. Reaper has skills with pure utility and going into Shroud is a pure utility in itself.

On 4/29/2022 at 10:08 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

I'm wondering where you found such quote.

There's no need to find a quote since A, there was none, and B, you expresed it instead of explicitly stating it.

Edited by Malus.2184
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12 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

For an Engineer, using those skills takes up another skill who can be used for nothing else than that. No utility in the Skill itself at all. Reaper has skills with pure utility and going into Shroud is a pure utility in itself.

 

Yes, but following your logic its totally worth it cause you get a toolbelt skill and a weapon swap with 5 new skills so basically a 6:1 ratio. Also what about ele? I mean like @Dadnir.5038 showed you they can have the most weapon skills and are not the best pvp class. Maybe accept that your argument has flaws. Surely necro is strong but its not the reason for this is not the skills swap. Rather the second hp bar with dmg reduction. Im not arguing against you just pointing out flaws in your arugmentation.

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59 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

There's no need to find a quote since A, there was none, and B, you expresed it instead of explicitly stating it.

So you believe it right to "quote" someone, rewrite what this person wrote to ridicule it's own arguments because you disagree with said arguments? What great mind you are to never be wrong and be able to shut other peoples by simply rewriting their arguments in your own light. Ah! The magic of the web...

What I said wasn't a "straw-man" argument but simply a fact: "The number of skills a profession can have access at any moment isn't what make this profession strong or weak." And I'll even push it further in saying that: "Quality matter more than quantity."

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1 minute ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

So you believe it right to "quote" someone, rewrite what this person wrote to ridicule it's own arguments because you disagree with said arguments? What great mind you are to never be wrong and be able to shut other peoples by simply rewriting their arguments in your own light. Ah! The magic of the web

That is appropriate if you keep the context. Misrepresenting the argument to say something that was never even expressed is dishonest.

56 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

Yes, but following your logic its totally worth it cause you get a toolbelt skill and a weapon swap with 5 new skills

Following my reasoning. It's impossible to argue anything logically. 'Logic' is merely the acceptance of something being real. Like, "that's a fire." And in reasoning it brings their skills up to an eqaul number that everyone else have. As I said, having the toolkit in itself has no utility. The additional utility of both the Reaper Shroud and the ability creates some maaxing synergy.

There's also that if you want a certain Toolbelt Skill you have to choose a certain a Skill that perhaps might do nothing for the spec.

Réaper has no such issue. The utility inherent in their skills are one to one, they choose one and get the effect they desire.

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21 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Following my reasoning. It's impossible to argue anything logically. 'Logic' is merely the acceptance of something being real. Like, "that's a fire."

 

Thank you for clarification. Like you maybe noticed im not an english native speaker and my wording is sometimes strongly influenced by the syntax of my native language. 

 

22 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

And in reasoning it brings their skills up to an eqaul number that everyone else have. As I said, having the toolkit in itself has no utility. The additional utility of both the Reaper Shroud and the ability creates some maaxing synergy.

There's also that if you want a certain Toolbelt Skill you have to choose a certain a Skill that perhaps might do nothing for the spec.

Réaper has no such issue. The utility inherent in their skills are one to one, they choose one and get the effect they desire.

 

They sure do for reaper cause thats what they are supposed to do. I mean shorud is their core mechanic. But you cant compare core mechanics. The discussion "Class x has this while class y hast that" leads to nowhere. Anet doesnt even try to balance this way.

 

To get this discussion back on track maybe suggest what you would change about reaper to bring it inline with other professions (from your point of view). This would also help devs if they ever visit this forum which i personally doubt.

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5 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

Thank you for clarification. Like you maybe noticed im not an english native speaker and my wording is sometimes strongly influenced by the syntax of my native language. 

English is a secondary language for me.

And most people who speak English natively would say the same thing as you said earlier since they think 'logical' is the way to think. People who due to brain damage can only think in 'logical' terms are unable to choose what pants to wear if they've multiple as they're unable to ask themselves, "how do I feel wearing these?"

5 hours ago, Bale.3851 said:

They sure do for reaper cause thats what they are supposed to do. I mean shorud is their core mechanic. But you cant compare core mechanics. The discussion "Class x has this while class y hast that" leads to nowhere. Anet doesnt even try to balance this way.

How would it break the spec if their class mechanic only absorbed 33% or 50% of the damage they recieved? Right now, the spec is as balanced as a hippo on a seesaw as the spec can potentially be ripped right out of the Shroud due to taking a large amount of damage. This makes the Shroud duration extremely unstable. As a consequence of that the skills in the Shroud have to be extremely powerful to make up for this unstable duration.

Anecdote-time: Yesterday in WvW I saw an extremely good Reaper player. They soloed five people since a majority of the damage they took was absorbed by the Shroud, the rest never happened because they were able to kite them around a structure, only attacking when they CDs were ready.

As far as I know no other class even have the potential to solo five people since they would slowly die to attrition. A Reaper has no such weakness since the Shroud works as additional health. Any damage is absorbed from that first, any attrition that would normally kill people is taken from that first and thus discarded.

This is unfun to play against in PvP and WvW since one spec can completely disregard the normal rule of, "everyone will eventually die if they're attritioned down."

You're unable to attrition a Reaper down if they're set up for it. This should never, ever be possible under any circumstance. If a spec is unable to be attritioned down for no other reason than simply existing then something is wrong balance-wise.

Edited by Malus.2184
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3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

How would it break the spec if their class mechanic only absorbed 33% or 50% of the damage they recieved? Right now, the spec is as balanced as a hippo on a seesaw as the spec can potentially be ripped right out of the Shroud due to taking a large amount of damage. This makes the Shroud duration extremely unstable. As a consequence of that the skills in the Shroud have to be extremely powerful to make up for this unstable duration.

 

I never said that this was a bad idea. I just pointed out that the skill thing is not reasonable. Sure nerf dmg reduction in shroud. Numbers are open for discussion.

 

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

Anecdote-time: Yesterday in WvW I saw an extremely good Reaper player. They soloed five people since a majority of the damage they took was absorbed by the Shroud, the rest never happened because they were able to kite them around a structure, only attacking when they CDs were ready.

 

And this is where the problem starts. Comparing what seems like ultra bad playsers with a good one is not gonna work. Reaper is at best a medicore to good 1v1 class. It just shines in group fights when supported. Then its a beast. But say a reaper soloed 5 guys and is op cause of this is not an argument.

 

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

You're unable to attrition a Reaper down if they're set up for it. This should never, ever be possible under any circumstance. If a spec is unable to be attritioned down for no other reason than simply existing then something is wrong balance-wise.

 Reaper dies for sure. Its one of the best focus targets there is cause your damage is bound to shroud so is you mobility and survivability. Sorry to disagree but if you are focused as a reaper you are just a dmg sponge with no options. This is why reaper gets focused in high end pvp. Its just that most players arent high end pvpers. This is also why reaper is a noob stomper build (and a great team fighter). But most people simply dont understand how to outplay it. They face it head on and wonder why they lost screaming nerf this kitten.

 

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