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Lionguard Havens


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Why do the various races allow a foreign military organization controlled by literal pirates to build forts on and occupy parts of their territory?

Particularly Kryta, which has a very real military and not "peacekeepers" like the asura, sylvari, and norn.

Only the charr have any sense, with the only haven in Ascalon being arguably still in the Shiverpeak mountains.

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49 minutes ago, narwhalsbend.7059 said:

Why do the various races allow a foreign military organization controlled by literal pirates to build forts on and occupy parts of their territory?

Particularly Kryta, which has a very real military and not "peacekeepers" like the asura, sylvari, and norn.

Only the charr have any sense, with the only haven in Ascalon being arguably still in the Shiverpeak mountains.

A: Lion's Arch was "refounded" by Pirates, but they aren't pirates anymore in a literal sense. They trade and maintain the vast road network between Lion's Arch and the havens, spreading from Ascalon to the Maguuma.

B: The Lionguard/Lion's Arch also has treaties with various groups that protect them (mostly). IE, the Centaurs are not at war with Lion's Arch, but Kryta. Therefore *typically* Lionguard protected caravans are untouched and allowed passage.

C : the lionguard is a military, but not to the size or strength of any of the other nations. Seraph could squash them if needed.

Basically, the Lionguard act as a security force to maintain the havens and roads and ensure that land based trade is never (for long) truly severed or threatened. The Havens act as fortified rest areas and trading posts all around Tyria, keeping local trade and exchanges alive while also providing caravans and travelers places to rest for the night or heal up if need be. They've left the pirate behavior mostly behind.

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Point B that Kalavier said is probably the #1 reason. They're a neutral party to all involved, even before the charr-human ceasefire. This means that of all political groups, they're the least likely to be assaulted.

Additionally, leaving the trade routes to the Lionguard, whom Kryta has had an alliance with for the past 5+ years (it's brought up in Edge of Destiny), means less work for the Seraph, and more Seraph soldiers to focus on the bandit and centaur issues. Kryta is, technically, the only unified sovereign nation that the Havens travel through - the sylvari, asura, and norn are very disjointed and not unified (especially the norn). They may have outposts way out of their capital, but the Arcane Council's and Warden's authority outside of Rata Sum and The Grove, respectively, is pretty minimal (and Wolfborn authority outside of Hoelbrak is literally non-existent).

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1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Point B that Kalavier said is probably the #1 reason. They're a neutral party to all involved, even before the charr-human ceasefire. This means that of all political groups, they're the least likely to be assaulted.

Additionally, leaving the trade routes to the Lionguard, whom Kryta has had an alliance with for the past 5+ years (it's brought up in Edge of Destiny), means less work for the Seraph, and more Seraph soldiers to focus on the bandit and centaur issues. Kryta is, technically, the only unified sovereign nation that the Havens travel through - the sylvari, asura, and norn are very disjointed and not unified (especially the norn). They may have outposts way out of their capital, but the Arcane Council's and Warden's authority outside of Rata Sum and The Grove, respectively, is pretty minimal (and Wolfborn authority outside of Hoelbrak is literally non-existent).

I may be wrong, but don't the Lionguard also maintain the majority of the roads involved, instead of the Seraph? Even less work for Kryta.

50 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

On top of all that I'm not sure the Lionguard even are a military in even the loosest sense and are more a police and security force instead.  They even use ranks like Sheriff and Deputies instead of the more common military ranks.

Well, I consider it like a PMC/small military. They can hold their own in terms of defense of their cities, but a proper army can steamroll them. Guards/security/cops in role, but geared like a military with most of their front fighters using plate armor.

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On 4/30/2022 at 9:16 AM, narwhalsbend.7059 said:

Why do the various races allow a foreign military organization controlled by literal pirates to build forts on and occupy parts of their territory?

Particularly Kryta, which has a very real military and not "peacekeepers" like the asura, sylvari, and norn.

Only the charr have any sense, with the only haven in Ascalon being arguably still in the Shiverpeak mountains.

I believe this was addressed in one of the books that take place between the gap between the first and second game.  Kryta abandoned Lion’s Arch after the great flood caused by Zhaitan’s rising. Then a small rebuild effort was attempted by Cobiah Marriner. Once The Krytan throne received word of Lion’s Arch’s growing power, there was fear that Divinity’s Reach would swoop in to reclaim its territory. But I believe there was an agreement that, as long as Lion’s Arch acted in the best interests of the Krytan throne, they would be allowed to remain independent.  Then of course, over time, they have gotten much larger and more powerful. So I think Divinity’s Reach respects its sovereignty at this point as a neutral city, even though it’s technically on Krytan land. 
 

Also, Lion’s Arch is strategically important, as it has a port that can access the unending ocean. This makes Lion’s Arch an important destination as a trading hub. So I think other cities allow havens built on their land to facilitate easy and safe trading routes in order for trading with them to be more lucrative. 

Edited by Tom.8029
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Important note Hoelbrak, the Grove, and to a lesser extent Rata Sum are more city-states that proper nations.

The Norn don't have any centralized government they're all fiercely independent, while homesteads are scattered across the Shiverpeaks they aren't apart of a larger "Norn nation". The part of the Shiverpeaks they're in aren't even their homelands. It's actually a problem that comes up a lot up until HoT, Knut can't promise an army to fight the Molten Alliance or Modremoth. 
Overtime there might actually be an exodus of Norn back to the Far Shiverpeaks now that Jormag is defeated. Culturally it's probably important that Jormag was killed by someone chosen by the spirits of the wild and a descendent of Jora. If there will ever be a chance to unite the norn in central tyria Braham and Jhavi have their attention. 

There is like one outpost in Legion controlled Diessa Plateau and it has a charr settlement built right next to it, I don't think anyone in Ascalon is worried.

In Maguuma if you look in Caledon forest the Sylvari have pretty short borders, they end roughly at the historical border of Kytra, which is where you find the Lion's Guard Havens. They have some secluded settlements on other maps but they're not as heavily connected to the Grove. They have a smaller sphere of influence.

Rata Sum is likely fine with Lion's Guard in Metrica Province because the Arcane Council does still exert somewhat strong control and ties in the region. They also probably weren't interested in expanding outward too far because they were used to building out vertically. They probably expected to eventually some day dig down from where they are.

It's I think to the Asura and Sylvari benefit that they stay as economically and military close to Lion's Arch as possible. Maybe via the Pact.
Because Kryta is still massive, they have all that land around Divinity's Reach. In stamping out the White Mantle, Queen Jenna became more authoritarian than she was at the start of her reign. Couple that with the fact she still has no heirs I would be extremely nervous about whoever comes after her. If I am the Asura I am very happy that there are Lion's Guard between us and Kryta. Especially since they have a lot of incentive with new Canthan and Elonian trading partners to find a new southern port.

On the LA side of things, I'd be absolutely terrified at the moment. The Charr just had a massive civil war that crossed the Shiverpeaks and woke up an Elder Dragon. They didn't have an easy time of it too and arguably went through the path of most resistance to get there. I'd be worried about the Iron Legion moving into the Southern Shiverpeaks to boost morale and open a port for trade with Elona/Cantha or even inviting the possibility of cutting LA off from Amnoon. On top of that there is a lot to lose with Cantha opening up, you don't want them to take Kryta's side in any future conflicts. Nobody wants Kryta to have an uneven share of or access to Jade Tech. Also now more than ever you want to play nice with the Asurans and Sylvari because you don't want them to give Kryta too generous access to the Unending Ocean from their ports. 

So to get back to the question at hand, I think that LA isn't as in control as it might look. There is a lot of mutual co-operation at the moment that was contingent on Kryta not having a lot of friends and a lot of enemies (dragons, centaurs, bandits/mantle, Charr in the recent past). A lot of those outposts in Kryta might go back to Seraph control in the near future. They aren't otherwise really infringing on the lands of anyone else.

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3 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Rata Sum is likely fine with Lion's Guard in Metrica Province because the Arcane Council does still exert somewhat strong control and ties in the region. They also probably weren't interested in expanding outward too far because they were used to building out vertically. They probably expected to eventually some day dig down from where they are.

It's I think to the Asura and Sylvari benefit that they stay as economically and military close to Lion's Arch as possible. Maybe via the Pact.

Rata Sum also has a major dock, and the Arcane council gets money from all asura gate travel, and they charge for all trips with higher charges for cargo. So they benefit from both their own travel, as well as land caravans.

3 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Because Kryta is still massive, they have all that land around Divinity's Reach. In stamping out the White Mantle, Queen Jenna became more authoritarian than she was at the start of her reign. Couple that with the fact she still has no heirs I would be extremely nervous about whoever comes after her. If I am the Asura I am very happy that there are Lion's Guard between us and Kryta. Especially since they have a lot of incentive with new Canthan and Elonian trading partners to find a new southern port.

So to get back to the question at hand, I think that LA isn't as in control as it might look. There is a lot of mutual co-operation at the moment that was contingent on Kryta not having a lot of friends and a lot of enemies (dragons, centaurs, bandits/mantle, Charr in the recent past). A lot of those outposts in Kryta might go back to Seraph control in the near future. They aren't otherwise really infringing on the lands of anyone else.

I don't really see the "Jennah has become more authoritarian" bit? Shortly after the white mantle got stomped out, the Ministry was back in action and rebuilding. She actually waited a long time to clean house because she was waiting for hard evidence she could slap down on the table, which Caudecus finally gave her.

The Havens though, are Lionguard built, not Seraph. There is zero incentive to take over them, as the Lionguard pay for and maintain those roads (Less work for the Seraph and Kryta) as well as ensure trade routes are maintained without extra resources needed diverted. It'd be taking over the route just to pay more to keep it staffed and running when ATM they get all the benefits without having to lose manpower over it.

3 hours ago, Vidit.7108 said:

On the LA side of things, I'd be absolutely terrified at the moment. The Charr just had a massive civil war that crossed the Shiverpeaks and woke up an Elder Dragon. They didn't have an easy time of it too and arguably went through the path of most resistance to get there. I'd be worried about the Iron Legion moving into the Southern Shiverpeaks to boost morale and open a port for trade with Elona/Cantha or even inviting the possibility of cutting LA off from Amnoon. On top of that there is a lot to lose with Cantha opening up, you don't want them to take Kryta's side in any future conflicts. Nobody wants Kryta to have an uneven share of or access to Jade Tech. Also now more than ever you want to play nice with the Asurans and Sylvari because you don't want them to give Kryta too generous access to the Unending Ocean from their ports. 
 

 

The charr have historically been able to access the unending ocean as I recall, but again, why would they want to cut off LA? LA's status benefits all the other nations, where actively cutting it out of the trade network or hindering it would be a net harm. Not to mention possibly peeve off other groups. Kryta and Charr have a peace treaty and ATM, neither side wants to destroy that or go back to that war. They wouldn't be planning for a war with each other, at least not for a long while.

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1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Rata Sum also has a major dock, and the Arcane council gets money from all asura gate travel, and they charge for all trips with higher charges for cargo. So they benefit from both their own travel, as well as land caravans.

I don't really see the "Jennah has become more authoritarian" bit? Shortly after the white mantle got stomped out, the Ministry was back in action and rebuilding. She actually waited a long time to clean house because she was waiting for hard evidence she could slap down on the table, which Caudecus finally gave her.

The Havens though, are Lionguard built, not Seraph. There is zero incentive to take over them, as the Lionguard pay for and maintain those roads (Less work for the Seraph and Kryta) as well as ensure trade routes are maintained without extra resources needed diverted. It'd be taking over the route just to pay more to keep it staffed and running when ATM they get all the benefits without having to lose manpower over it.

 

The charr have historically been able to access the unending ocean as I recall, but again, why would they want to cut off LA? LA's status benefits all the other nations, where actively cutting it out of the trade network or hindering it would be a net harm. Not to mention possibly peeve off other groups. Kryta and Charr have a peace treaty and ATM, neither side wants to destroy that or go back to that war. They wouldn't be planning for a war with each other, at least not for a long while.

Agreed, the commenter you're quoting is making predictions and inferences that I don't think match up with the current state of the game's world, especially in regards to that bit about Jennah becoming an authoritarian and Lion's Arch getting cut out from the opening up of the other Human nations.

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Just now, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Agreed, the commenter you're quoting is making predictions and inferences that I don't think match up with the current state of the game's world, especially in regards to that bit about Jennah becoming an authoritarian and Lion's Arch getting cut out from the opening up of the other Human nations.

It'd make sense if there was active conflict or high tensions between the races, but Anet isn't doing the "One side vs the other" playerbase split lol.

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17 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The Havens though, are Lionguard built, not Seraph. There is zero incentive to take over them, as the Lionguard pay for and maintain those roads (Less work for the Seraph and Kryta) as well as ensure trade routes are maintained without extra resources needed diverted. It'd be taking over the route just to pay more to keep it staffed and running when ATM they get all the benefits without having to lose manpower over it.

Yes this was the reason for not exerting control over it. They were fighting a war with the centaurs that are various points went pretty poorly especially in the southern and eastern parts of Kryta as far as we are aware. The primary region we're talking about though is Kessex Hills, the Lion Guard don't actually operate that deeply in Krytan territory they just have all the major roads into maguuma and ascalon by way of the shiverpeaks. 

29 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The charr have historically been able to access the unending ocean as I recall, but again, why would they want to cut off LA? LA's status benefits all the other nations, where actively cutting it out of the trade network or hindering it would be a net harm. Not to mention possibly peeve off other groups. Kryta and Charr have a peace treaty and ATM, neither side wants to destroy that or go back to that war. They wouldn't be planning for a war with each other, at least not for a long while.

I don't know where that access would be if they still have it. There doesn't seem to be a legion presence in Mount Maelstrom or in the former dwarven lands from what we can see. What's getting lost here imo is how much things have changed since the start of the game. It benefitted everyone to play nice with Lion's Arch when trade was primarily limited to central Tyria on a mostly west to east axis. Southward trade was limited or stopped by Zhaitan and even if it wasn't there weren't trade partners besides maybe Amnoon. Sea access is suddenly more relevant and LA is only going to get richer if it's one of the roughly two major go-betweens. The conflict though doesn't need to be one army fighting another or burning down LA, it can be fighting over who builds on the ruins of Orr. Or who is allowed to have parts of the coast line.

I don't think though that Kryta trying to grab land away from LA or the Charr expanding southwest is necessarily going to restart conflict between the two. Though it's also worth noting that treaty is very new and only one side has very recently had a leadership change.

I don't remember hearing about the ministry getting rebuilt in Icebrood Saga but it doesn't mean I didn't miss something so I could be wrong about Jenna.

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On 5/7/2022 at 9:38 PM, Vidit.7108 said:

Yes this was the reason for not exerting control over it. They were fighting a war with the centaurs that are various points went pretty poorly especially in the southern and eastern parts of Kryta as far as we are aware. The primary region we're talking about though is Kessex Hills, the Lion Guard don't actually operate that deeply in Krytan territory they just have all the major roads into maguuma and ascalon by way of the shiverpeaks.

Lionguard actually operate at all the havens, while they may not patrol the roads there, they guard the havens. As I recall, in Kessex Hills they are the ones who yell at a centaur messenger bringing up the treaty the centaurs have with Lion's Arch, promising no harm to caravans.

Even then, Kryta has no reason to take over the havens.

On 5/7/2022 at 9:38 PM, Vidit.7108 said:

I don't know where that access would be if they still have it. There doesn't seem to be a legion presence in Mount Maelstrom or in the former dwarven lands from what we can see. What's getting lost here imo is how much things have changed since the start of the game. It benefitted everyone to play nice with Lion's Arch when trade was primarily limited to central Tyria on a mostly west to east axis. Southward trade was limited or stopped by Zhaitan and even if it wasn't there weren't trade partners besides maybe Amnoon. Sea access is suddenly more relevant and LA is only going to get richer if it's one of the roughly two major go-betweens. The conflict though doesn't need to be one army fighting another or burning down LA, it can be fighting over who builds on the ruins of Orr. Or who is allowed to have parts of the coast line.

I don't think though that Kryta trying to grab land away from LA or the Charr expanding southwest is necessarily going to restart conflict between the two. Though it's also worth noting that treaty is very new and only one side has very recently had a leadership change.

It's never stated explicitly how, but they had ships out in the sea during the rise of Zhaitan. They also supplied the Pact with submarines for the Orr offensives.

The thing that must be asked is "What does anybody gain from taking over the havens or trying to cut out LA from trade routes?"

See, LA doesn't want expanded territory or power, they are content to remain a trade hub. Zhaitan's fleets are still out there, though not as coordinated. using LA as a trade hub also means Rata sum cannot seize control or charge super insane prices on Asura gate travel or cargo shipping.

Orr, while better then before is still being cleansed of Risen and made habitable.

There was reason to play nice at the start of the game, but while everybody is in more stable situations now, that doesn't remove any of the reasons to play nice. Trading with and through LA means there is consistent pricing on goods, reasonable travel times, and most importantly, security. The Lionguard are a layer of protection, adding with whatever local forces there are. "Oh kitten, somebody's attacking the haven at Kessex Hills" means Seraph can charge in and support it, etc.

 

On 5/7/2022 at 9:38 PM, Vidit.7108 said:

I don't remember hearing about the ministry getting rebuilt in Icebrood Saga but it doesn't mean I didn't miss something so I could be wrong about Jenna.

Was actually within Season 3 lol. When Balthazar is revealed and they go to DR to try to get information, there is a comment about the new legate Minister and all.

They got back into regular operations pretty quickly when all the traitors were arrested or killed in one swift move by Jennah's suspending of the Ministry forcing Caudecus's coup attempt to happen right then, instantly revealing everybody on his side.

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1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Lionguard actually operate at all the havens, while they may not patrol the roads there, they guard the havens

I know that, but not all the havens are in Krytan territory. The deepest they go is Swamphaven they don't really seem to patrol outward from there. The only town, Krytan town protected by seraph, dependent on Lion's Guard roads is Triskell Quay. In better times they probably transported mostly by the port there. Garenhoff seems to be independent.

The roads in Queensdale connecting Claypool to Beetleton and Shaemoor are all patrolled by seraph with outposts operated by seraph. The outpost at Guardian's Path in Gendarran is not a haven and Seraph operated, so it's very possible to mostly avoid Lion's Guard controlled paths to Lion's Arch.

But there really isn't any way to get to Ascalon or Maguuma from Kryta by road that doesn't pass one of the Havens.

2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

What does anybody gain from taking over the havens or trying to cut out LA from trade routes

There is a lot to gain. You don't have to pay any tariffs, fees, or other taxes to the captain's council. Your own merchants can get rich and not foreign ones. It's for all the same reasons LA wants to be that trading hub and doesn't want unfriendly competition. It's fully within LA's interest to be at peace but as they will inevitably get wealthier their trading partners dependent on their port might become either greedier, resentful, or unsatisfied with their cut.

Those Charr subs are small enough to have been transported by airship or built at Fort Trinity. I'm not confident they were sailed there.

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1 hour ago, Vidit.7108 said:

There is a lot to gain. You don't have to pay any tariffs, fees, or other taxes to the captain's council. Your own merchants can get rich and not foreign ones. It's for all the same reasons LA wants to be that trading hub and doesn't want unfriendly competition. It's fully within LA's interest to be at peace but as they will inevitably get wealthier their trading partners dependent on their port might become either greedier, resentful, or unsatisfied with their cut.

 

And how else would you transport goods? Through Asura gates? Paying the Arcane council even more to install a second gate, then paying fees for all the shipments? Go to DR and maybe Ebonhawke (I forget which side of the gate it's on, pretty sure DR) where you'll see merchants complaining about the gate fees. In old LA we had Charr trying to haggle the gate operators for a discount.

Use an existing trade network that is secure and reasonably safe, or try to make your own basically. Nobody's really complained as far as I know about the Captain's Council or LA charging horribly or being unreasonable. There are other ports, including Rata Sum, and when you factor in stuff like enemy bases being destroyed/regions made safer over time (hearts completed, major event chains done, etc) it's like the above. "Why change a deal that already benefits everybody?"

 

1 hour ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Those Charr subs are small enough to have been transported by airship or built at Fort Trinity. I'm not confident they were sailed there.

A: Airships came into being by Charr, human, and Asura tech combined under the Pact, so there was no airship before the Pact came into being. Airships may have flown down the subs, but the Pact also runs (or borrows) a small regular navy fleet. Fort Trinity only has one space to build a sub without being attacked IIRC.

B: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Havoc   Before Orr rose, the Charr had a coastal fort somewhere south of the Shiverpeaks. So they did have at least some access to the coastline and resources to run a small shipyard there.

So they could've been made in safer waters and sailed south.

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