[Suggestions ] Just listen to this guy

[Erise.5614]

44 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

A first grader won't learn better and faster if tell them to solve an equation and put down all necessary text books in front of them. 

Adult people. Adult people...

Ok. Same example. But assume it's an adult who knows as much math as a first grader. 

44 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

ANet is, historically, extremely passionate about hardcore content. And had to react to deteriorating metrics. Aka, players just not playing anymore.

No. Just look at release cadences for instanced content and sPvP or - even worse - WvW.

GW1 initially considered PvE the tutorial.

ANet invested big time into PvP eSports on GW2 launch. 

Dungeons flopped. So ANet moved on to Fractals and then straight to Raids.

There's a long term persistence towards implementing stuff despite it flopping time and time again.

Which I interpret as the devs loving that aspect of the game. And noticing time and time again that it's just not playing out the way they'd like it to. 

44 minutes ago, Raizel.8175 said:

We're talking about basics here and not rocket science.

I know. But I am confused. Is there or isn't there a problem with how the majority of players plays the game and how much they know about combat mechanics?

As far as I understand your comments there's some mixed messages in that regard. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Fuchslein.8639]

7 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Ok. Same example. But assume it's an adult who knows as much math as a first grader. 

GW1 initially considered PvE the tutorial.

ANet invested big time into PvP eSports on GW2 launch. 

Dungeons flopped. So ANet moved on to Fractals and then straight to Raids.

There's a long term persistence towards implementing stuff despite is flopping time and time again.

Which I interpret as the devs loving that aspect of the game. And noticing time and time again that it's just not playing out the way they'd like it to. 

I know. But I am confused. Is there or isn't there a problem with how the majority of players plays the game and how much they know about combat mechanics?

As far as I understand your comments there's some mixed messages in that regard. 

Okay, now im interested. Where did dungeons flop? Where are the sources for this?
Because, just because Anet moves on from something, dosn't mean it is a flop. Dungeons did flop AFTER anet changed rewards, surprise. Because Rewars matter.

[Linken.6345]

45 minutes ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Okay, now im interested. Where did dungeons flop? Where are the sources for this?
Because, just because Anet moves on from something, dosn't mean it is a flop. Dungeons did flop AFTER anet changed rewards, surprise. Because Rewars matter.

Dungeons did not flop people played that and only that.

Either they got birned out or they saw no reason to play anymore since they got bis exotic gear through said dungeons and there were no other long term goals for some back in the day.

 

[vares.8457]

1 hour ago, Erise.5614 said:

 

Dungeons flopped. So ANet moved on to Fractals and then straight to Raids.

 

Nonsense. Dungeons did flop after they moved to Fractals and nerfed the rewards from dungeons. Please stick to the truth. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by vares.8457

[Fuchslein.8639]

10 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Dungeons did not flop people played that and only that.

Either they got birned out or they saw no reason to play anymore since they got bis exotic gear through said dungeons and there were no other long term goals for some back in the day.

 

Ehrm ... thats what i'm saying? 

[Erise.5614]

 

Dungeons were played. Sure. Raids are played too.

Though considering all the memes that there was no end game and the huge amount of changes ANet did to content after they abandoned dungeons is quite clear about how well they did. I doubt dungeons were more popular than raids are today.

It really feels like WvW/PvP was intended as the end game back then similar to PvP in GW1. Which, as we all know, did not happen. 

[vares.8457]

23 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

 

Dungeons were played. Sure. Raids are played too.

Though considering all the memes that there was no end game and the huge amount of changes ANet did to content after they abandoned dungeons is quite clear about how well they did. I doubt dungeons were more popular than raids are today.

It really feels like WvW/PvP was intended as the end game back then similar to PvP in GW1. Which, as we all know, did not happen. 

You are delusional. Dungeons were quite popular, then they abandoned them for fractals and nerfed the rewards. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by vares.8457

[Erise.5614]

6 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

You are delusional. Dungeons were quite popular, then they nerfed the rewards and abandoned dungeons for fractals. 

Source?

[vares.8457]

5 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Source?

I played at the time. Did a lot of dungeons runs, the LFG was full with groups, a lot of speed runs, solo runs etc. 

Because there were memes you claim that nobody did dungeons? Come on that’s ridiculous 

Edited May 8, 2022 by vares.8457

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

2 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I played at the time. Did a lot of dungeons runs, the LFG was full with groups, a lot of speed runs, solo runs etc. 

Because there were memes you claim that nobody did dungeons? Come on that’s ridiculous 

So i do

The majority where 5k  , only war + guard , link Berseker gear .

Thank god the reward was nerfed , so it moved "those peeple" into raids

[Erise.5614]

3 minutes ago, vares.8457 said:

I played at the time. Did a lot of dungeons runs, the LFG was full with groups, a lot of speed runs, solo runs etc. 

Because there were memes you claim that nobody did dungeons? Come on that’s ridiculous 

So I'm delusional on the basis of "felt like it"?

I played as well and no one in my guilds did anything remotely resembling regular dungeon runs. Raid LFG is not empty either.

For a word this strong, I did expect something more substantial to back it up. 

[vares.8457]

Just now, Erise.5614 said:

So I'm delusional on the basis of "felt like it"?

I played as well and no one in my guilds did anything remotely resembling regular dungeon runs. Raid LFG is not empty either.

For a word this strong, I did expect something more substantial to back it up. 

Sorry that I don’t have memes to support it. 

[Astralporing.1957]

38 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

Though considering all the memes that there was no end game and the huge amount of changes ANet did to content after they abandoned dungeons is quite clear about how well they did. I doubt dungeons were more popular than raids are today.

Oh, they were much more popular. So popular Anet had to nerf rewards into the ground in order to force people out of that content (yes, they flat out admitted then that the reward nerf was intended to make people stop playing dungeons). The reasons the abandoned that content is due to its spagetthi, and Anet decided it's much easier to start anew than to try to clean the dungeon code to make it easier to work with.

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

DPS: Tequatl revamp was the first actual open world DPS check back in the day. 

Yes, and it became being done only due to the effective massive dps boosts due to the combo of condition damage rework, allowing critical hits on Teq, and the megalaser change. It was not the people getting used to it, it was the nerfs that made it doable. A huge majority of playerbase would still not be able to pass that initial Teq dps check even today.

[Erise.5614]

11 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Oh, they were much more popular. So popular Anet had to nerf rewards into the ground in order to force people out of that content (yes, they flat out admitted then that the reward nerf was intended to make people stop playing dungeons). The reasons the abandoned that content is due to its spagetthi, and Anet decided it's much easier to start anew than to try to clean the dungeon code to make it easier to work with.

I mean. That is a good point too. Plus lots of flawed design decisions they seemingly wanted to get away from (e.g. distributing entrances throughout the world). 

But that's not actually related to the popularity. That just means it used to be more popular than fractals were upon release. It does not mean a substantially larger percentage of the player base played dungeons as compared to raids. (Also, didn't they say Twilight Arbor underperformed?)

It is not normal for a game to entirely abandon the fundamental end game format every couple of years. If the counter point is that ANet is incompetent and builds impossible to maintain systems over and over that could explain it as well. But to me it seems more likely that the participation just isn't where ANet wants it to be. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[voltaicbore.8012]

6 hours ago, Albi.7250 said:

The game cultivated a player base which is avert to challenge. Which is fine. I folded. The game will be fine. Pulling the last challenge exclusive rewards out of these modes will maybe hurt that particular endgame content but not the game overall.

This is what I've been trying to tell you since several pages ago lol. Welcome to the club - accepting reality is a healthy thing, I'm being 100% sincere here.

The simple answer to "why is GW2 not actually that hard, but so many bads think it's hard?" is that the skill floor is way too low. Unfortunately at this point I don't think ANet can meaningfully raise the skill floor. Doing so will just alienate all the bads, while doing nothing to attract new people to replace them. "Oh man, did you hear GW2 got a tiny bit harder? Gotta install now" is not a conversation that would happen.

So long ago, I just made my peace with the idea that I'd mostly be looking for my own challenges within the game, rather than having "savage mode ultimate mythic++++ suuuuper dungeon" as a clear target to shoot for. I learned to value this game for other things (core Tyria city design, general exploration, etc), and it's made me much happier to be here.

Edited May 8, 2022 by voltaicbore.8012

[Astralporing.1957]

42 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

I mean. That is a good point too. Plus lots of flawed design decisions they seemingly wanted to get away from (e.g. distributing entrances throughout the world). 

But that's not actually related to the popularity. That just means it used to be more popular than fractals were upon release. It does not mean a substantially larger percentage of the player base played dungeons as compared to raids. (Also, didn't they say Twilight Arbor underperformed?)

We don't have any statistics, but remember that dungeons in general were (and still are) way easier than raids. Easy enough, that (barring some special cases like Arah and Twilight Assault)  casual runs were actually the norm for them, filled within seconds and had no problem clearing.

And as for Twilinght Arbor... well, that was a case of a complete misread (or misrepresentation) of statistics. Anet indeed removed "Forward Up" path of TA on the basis that it was practically not being run. One thing they forgot (or forgot to mention) when making that decision however was why it was not being run. And the answer was that this path has been at that time bugged for over a half year, which made it unclearable for a huge majority of players.

42 minutes ago, Erise.5614 said:

It is not normal for a game to entirely abandon the fundamental end game format every couple of years. If the counter point is that ANet is incompetent and builds impossible to maintain systems over and over that could explain it as well. But to me it seems more likely that the participation just isn't where ANet wants it to be. 

Dungeons were not abandoned due to dungeon participation being too low. They got abandoned due to bad coding, the fact that original dungeon devs (the only ones that had any knowledge of how that content was coded) were not being part of Anet for quite a long time at that point, and the fact that Anet wanted people to move to Raids, and were afraid that people might not want to.

[Linken.6345]

1 hour ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

So i do

The majority where 5k  , only war + guard , link Berseker gear .

Thank god the reward was nerfed , so it moved "those peeple" into raids

Nope that is incorrect it was 4 war 1 mesmer/elementalist for stealth skip/might stacking.

[Linken.6345]

24 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We don't have any statistics, but remember that dungeons in general were (and still are) way easier than raids. Easy enough, that (barring some special cases like Arah and Twilight Assault)  casual runs were actually the norm for them, filled within seconds and had no problem clearing.

And as for Twilinght Arbor... well, that was a case of a complete misread (or misrepresentation) of statistics. Anet indeed removed "Forward Up" path of TA on the basis that it was practically not being run. One thing they forgot (or forgot to mention) when making that decision however was why it was not being run. And the answer was that this path has been at that time bugged for over a half year, which made it unclearable for a huge majority of players.

Dungeons were not abandoned due to dungeon participation being too low. They got abandoned due to bad coding, the fact that original dungeon devs (the only ones that had any knowledge of how that content was coded) were not being part of Anet for quite a long time at that point, and the fact that Anet wanted people to move to Raids, and were afraid that people might not want to.

It was not raids it was fractals they wanted people to move to other then that you are correct.

And how forward up was buged it was the last boss spawning unlimited anmunt of spiders that never despawned when everone died and reset the boss.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

It was not raids it was fractals they wanted people to move to other then that you are correct.

Well, they wanted people to move. To which, we can only suspect, but i find it telling that they've allowed dungeons to thrive for a long time after they've introduced fractals, but axed them as soon as they started working on raids.

2 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

And how forward up was buged it was the last boss spawning unlimited anmunt of spiders that never despawned when everone died and reset the boss.

Yes. Basically you've had just one try to kill the boss, and to do it you had to kill it before enough spiders spawned to overwhelm you. Not many dungeoneers were capable of pulling that off, so most people just did not even bother to try.

And, of course, the bug was introduced by Anet in the first place, when they tweaked the spider spawn mechanic in order to make that path a little more difficult to players (because they deemed it to be too easy before that).

[Wielder Of Magic.3950]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, and it became being done only due to the effective massive dps boosts due to the combo of condition damage rework, allowing critical hits on Teq, and the megalaser change. It was not the people getting used to it, it was the nerfs that made it doable. A huge majority of playerbase would still not be able to pass that initial Teq dps check even today.

 

Well...I hate to say it but maybe...it is time to leave these people behind then. 

You should not expect a game in 2022 to play the same and the exact same amount of challenge as it did in 2012.  A game typically gets more challenging with an expansion pack, and we are far from HoT levels still. 99% of EoD is somewhere between PoF and IBS, which is on the very forgiving side of the scale.

But this type of player will consider everything too hard. No matter if its a raid, a fractal, a strike, a dungeon, an open world meta or a story instance, if they cannot do it in a single go without paying much attention they are out. 

So be it.

 

So many people are trying for a middleground, but a lot of these people (and plenty of them are on these forums as well) absolutely refuse to compromise. I understand that Anet cannot balance the open world for the absolute top player, and frankly they shouldnt. But they do not have to balance for the absolute and utter bottom either. 

The Dragon's End Meta has sent a clear message for these players: Step up your game, or get faced with the fact that you won't be able to automatically complete all open world content.

 

Maybe we will miss these people if they leave the game over the mere thought of a mild challenge, but the alternative is that not just the hardcore people, but a sizable amount of people who are not hardcore but simply okay leave as well. 

That means in the end the game will not get any fanbased online presence, no guides will be made and no builds will be crafted for all to use. Because typically, the players who are on the okay to good side of the skill spectrum make these things.

And funnily enough, these players are also the reason why so many people who are clueless still succeed events so often. 

If these people leave, you'd be surprised how many instances and open world events suddenly become unclearable because people fail at the sight of even the slightest mechanic.

 

I mean this entire expansion gave us some of the biggest powercreep ever and somehow people still struggle with basics, despite all the tools and freebies handed to them and despite that this entire expansion has tried to teach them every possible mechanic again and again ( in both meta events and story instances even)...

Edited May 8, 2022 by Wielder Of Magic.3950

[Erise.5614]

40 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Dungeons were not abandoned due to dungeon participation being too low. They got abandoned due to bad coding, the fact that original dungeon devs (the only ones that had any knowledge of how that content was coded) were not being part of Anet for quite a long time at that point, and the fact that Anet wanted people to move to Raids, and were afraid that people might not want to.

I mean. It makes sense they abandoned the old dungeons. But they could've made new ones. We are up to version 4 of end game instanced content. WoW adds a new gear gimmick flavor every expansion but it's still dungeons and raids. With two kinds of modifiers. Heroic (for max level dungeons) and mythic for the ultimate challenge. Same with FF14. Two formats. Instanced small group. Instanced large group.

I significantly prefer GW2 over WoW or FF14 for a lot of reasons. The subscription model being a minor one among them. But it's certainly not normal for end game content to be this fractured and rebooted this often. Blaming spaghetti code may be valid the first time. But it gets real weird the 4th. And if that content delivery format worked better in its very first iteration. Why keep moving further and further away from it rather than going back to those roots?

To me, none of those explanations add up.

The only explanation I can think of is to consider alternative goals such as lack of people giving it a try. Because rewards, retention, poor code and other such details can be fixed without completely changing content delivery and presentation. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Erise.5614

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

10 hours ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Maybe we will miss these people if they leave the game over the mere thought of a mild challenge, but the alternative is that not just the hardcore people, but a sizable amount of people who are not hardcore but simply okay leave as well. 

That means in the end the game will not get any fanbased online presence, no guides will be made and no builds will be crafted for all to use. Because typically, the players who are on the okay to good side of the skill spectrum make these things.

Or raider should focus on CM strikes and create fanbased online presence-guides-build creafted.

And i will copy it , to do my dailys faster

Edited May 8, 2022 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Linken.6345]

1 minute ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Or raider should focus on CM strikes and create fanbased online presence-guides-build creafted.

Oh we have multiple CM strikes now?

Can you point me to another one then aetherblade retreat please.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Well...I hate to say it but maybe...it is time to leave these people behind then. 

Again, you are speaking about the majority of the game population. Devs would have to be insane to leave most of their players behind. With no guarantee of replacing them with any new ones, i might add.

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

You should not expect a game in 2022 to play the same and the exact same amount of challenge as it did in 2012.  A game typically gets more challenging with an expansion pack

Not really. It might seem so on surface, but typically, what we're getting is exactly the same levels of challenge, just at a higher item level 😛

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

So many people are trying for a middleground, but a lot of these people (and plenty of them are on these forums as well) absolutely refuse to compromise. I understand that Anet cannot balance the open world for the absolute top player, and frankly they shouldnt. But they do not have to balance for the absolute and utter bottom either. 

What you're missing is that they do not. What you think is the "absolute and utter bottom" is in reality the average level. The bottom is even lower below it. Far lower, tbh. I know it might be hard to imagine if you're looking at it from the top, but that's how it is.

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

The Dragon's End Meta has sent a clear message for these players: Step up your game, or get faced with the fact that you won't be able to automatically complete all open world content.

And these players decided to not step up. And now Anet has a decision to make - either to follow up (and eventually lose those players - but see my first comment), or go back. Hint: previous time they tried that one (during HoT), players did not cave in, they've just stopped playing, and Anet eventually had to nerf everything down.

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

Maybe we will miss these people if they leave the game over the mere thought of a mild challenge, but the alternative is that not just the hardcore people, but a sizable amount of people who are not hardcore but simply okay leave as well. 

Nah. You don't see how high the bar has been set with DE event. It may seem pretty low to you, but it's way above what the huge majority of the game population is willing (or capable) of going. And that the "okay" players you speak of would have been completely fine with a much lower bar.

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

That means in the end the game will not get any fanbased online presence, no guides will be made and no builds will be crafted for all to use. Because typically, the players who are on the okay to good side of the skill spectrum make these things.

And funnily enough, these players are also the reason why so many people who are clueless still succeed events so often. 

And those guides will have no purpose whatsoever if the game goes under due to ditching most of its players.

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

If these people leave, you'd be surprised how many instances and open world events suddenly become unclearable because people fail at the sight of even the slightest mechanic.

Possibly. If the casual majority leaves however there will be no game to speak of at all.

9 minutes ago, Wielder Of Magic.3950 said:

I mean this entire expansion gave us some of the biggest powercreep ever and somehow people still struggle with basics, despite all the tools and freebies handed to them and despite that this entire expansion has tried to teach them every possible mechanic again and again ( in both meta events and story instances even)...

Because this powercreep is pretty much accessible only to those that do not need it. If majority of players were actually running any decent builds (even from previous expansions), we would not be having issues.