Tired Of Willbender - Get It Under Control Please - Mobility Creep Is A Problem

[myun.6395]

1 hour ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

I'm really on board with the viscerally candid thought here, but it's- like, really funny to see people keep having to deal with the same annoying mechanics over and over, only for them to have wildly different opinions on them based on which class is doing the mechanic-ing

So I mean, please by all means make guardian warrithief. 

(also buff Firebrand, it doesn't deserve that wdf)

Even the metabattle creator is probably a guardian main who is abusing willbender to rank up . He didn't even put willy in meta section, but greatsword shiro xD which is a niche build that gets farmed hardcore, not like the bunker variant.

 

#nerfthebluechild

[Abyssisis.3971]

1 minute ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

1. I never said anything about being upset about Willbender providing a roam worthy build for WvW, because I wasn't discussing WvW, I was discussing Willbender in SPvP Conquest, where it is breaking the dynamic & purpose of the game mode. But now that you bring it up, I will say the same exact thing about it in WvW, it needs to lose some of that mobility.

Thanks for you input Math.

I'll try to keep my feedback well written, well explained, and constructive next time.

Willbender is pretty broken in wvw roaming as well, it’s now favoured by a certain clouding server due to its ability to get you your face, stick with you no matter what you do, kill you and then get out. Rinse and repeat for ez bags.

[Math.5123]

2 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

1. Most zergs are already mostly comprised of FBs for a reason. It has been this way ever since PoF release. Don't act like you haven't seen it every single time you go into WvW. We've all seen it, you've seen it too.
2. The thread is about Willbender yes, but the comment about Condi Firebrand was in response to your statement that the best fractal comp was 1x Firebrand 1x Alac 3x dedicated DPS, when you did not realize that Condi Firebrand was a top benchmark dedicated DPS when stated for it. Thus supporting the origin statement of this sub-discussion about Guardian having too much MVP meta status amongst all 3 game modes, the idea that you can actually stack nothing but Guardian based classes in a team comp for any game mode, and be highly effective if not meta.
3. I never said anything about being upset about Willbender providing a roam worthy build for WvW, because I wasn't discussing WvW, I was discussing Willbender in SPvP Conquest, where it is breaking the dynamic & purpose of the game mode. But now that you bring it up, I will say the same exact thing about it in WvW, it needs to lose some of that mobility.

Thanks for the input, Math.

I'll try to keep my feedback well written, well explained, and constructive next time.

Only it wasn't in response to my post as my OP was in regard of you derailing. But alas. 

And you only ever run 1 fb per group. No more, no less. So saying wvw squads are "mostly comprised" of fb just isn't a fact. 20% is. 

 

And the roaming part of my post was in regard to the pvp role of roamer, not the dead wvw sub-gamemode.

[Gundam Style.8495]

This is all you ever see on the forums or anywhere players feel they can reach out to the developers. A nerf them thread created to provide an advantage for self. The cycle turns and now the same player is defending their own "broken" spec. Repeating for months and years, going back and forth.

 

Look at druid. Look at war. You fail to understand that to truly show something is OP, if it truly is, is to join them and not resist. This provides much more data than your biased reckoning. Treating your "main" like a lover or spouse while attacking everything else like the devil in church is why this game mode is dogpoop and the devs don't respond often.

 

What can they say? Everyone wants to be the best  but more often than they would care to admit, the issue is a lack of practice, familiarity, and understanding of the opponent and solution. Why do you think everything is so weak and hardly any gear choices, or viable traits/skills? Because MOST calls for nerfs are made selfishly.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Gundam Style.8495

[Chevelles.5867]

Stop complaining bout willbender i die easily all the time in pvp , enough already

[Hotride.2187]

43 minutes ago, Chevelles.5867 said:

Stop complaining bout willbender i die easily all the time in pvp , enough already

Ah, 4 pages into the thread and finally a good argument against nerfs. Guardians are bad at pvp and so better to keep wb OP.

To update my opinion on wb, now that I've dueled like 1 good player. Yeah it plays exactly like rev but it can be twice as aggressive. Poke, kite, poke kite, at twice the rate of rev.

[Kuma.1503]

2 hours ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

This is all you ever see on the forums or anywhere players feel they can reach out to the developers. A nerf them thread created to provide an advantage for self. The cycle turns and now the same player is defending their own "broken" spec. Repeating for months and years, going back and forth.

 

Look at druid. Look at war. You fail to understand that to truly show something is OP, if it truly is, is to join them and not resist. This provides much more data than your biased reckoning. Treating your "main" like a lover or spouse while attacking everything else like the devil in church is why this game mode is dogpoop and the devs don't respond often.

 

What can they say? Everyone wants to be the best  but more often than they would care to admit, the issue is a lack of practice, familiarity, and understanding of the opponent and solution. Why do you think everything is so weak and hardly any gear choices, or viable traits/skills? Because MOST calls for nerfs are made selfishly.

This. There may be some degree of self-deception going on here as well. I've seen enough misinformation thrown around when allegedly OP builds are discussed. I try to challenge the "nerf X" rhetoric, play devil's advocate when few others will. 

Our memories are fallible, our experiences are filtered through a highly subjective lense. If you expect to see something OP, the data you collect will be biased to support that expectation. 

People, including skilled/competent players go on to share that information with others, which is accepted uncritically due to that person's status, this poisons the data pool further. 

The end result is people misdiagnosing the problem. Trying to "fix" (read: nerf) things that shouldn't be fixed. 

I remember when prot holo was OP, and people, including CMC came to the conclusion that mortar kit was the culprit. CMC took it a step further and stated that he was genuinely considering nerfing Elixir Gun as well to nerf prot holo. 

A change that would have instantly killed what few builds core engi had left on the spot. Elixir Gun is one of the few strands of glue holding the core spec together, and it's proof of how things can go horribly wrong and lead to an objectively worse meta, even when you correctly identify which builds are OP. 

Thankfully this is one instance where the devs had some restraint. They hit holosmith, the build ceased to be a problem, core survived a metaphorical bullet to the head. Sadly things don't always end this way. 

Looking in this thread, statements such as "Willbender has too much block spam" have me worried. What "blocks" are people seeing besides f3 and the heal? Compare this build to virtuoso or core support guard for context, and the difference in blocks is night and day. 

Imagine we nerf the blocks, but that doesn't fix the problem. Anet doesn't look back on poorly executed nerfs, only forward to more nerfs, so they hit the mobility next. 

Willbender ends up as an overly frail build with high damage, but low mobility. Feedbender all over again. People rejoice. Another OP build axed.  It's allowed to remain bad for an indeterminate amount of time. 

A new build emerges and the cycle continues. 

 

 

 

 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

6 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

Only it wasn't in response to my post as my OP was in regard of you derailing.

How can you claim that I was derailing when I was the OP of this thread discussing Willbender, which has been discussing Willbender this whole time?

If you are talking about my response to a person bringing up Guardian MVP dominance amongst all game modes, you should reread the post flow and notice that I went out of my way to say: "But I don't care about all of that. This thread is to discuss Willbender in SPvP so let's veer the topic back to where it started."

And then it was actually you who brought it back up and turned the discussion back into Guardian meta discussion across all game modes. You actually did do that. And you are continuing to do it right now, by throwing more posts at me about this subject.

Go reread the flow of the posts.

If you have any integrity to not continue to hypocritize your own words, you can INB4 making another post at me about this subject. Either begin to discuss Willbender, or with all due respect, just stop posting.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

4 hours ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

This is all you ever see on the forums or anywhere players feel they can reach out to the developers. A nerf them thread created to provide an advantage for self. The cycle turns and now the same player is defending their own "broken" spec. Repeating for months and years, going back and forth.

 

Look at druid. Look at war. You fail to understand that to truly show something is OP, if it truly is, is to join them and not resist. This provides much more data than your biased reckoning. Treating your "main" like a lover or spouse while attacking everything else like the devil in church is why this game mode is dogpoop and the devs don't respond often.

 

What can they say? Everyone wants to be the best  but more often than they would care to admit, the issue is a lack of practice, familiarity, and understanding of the opponent and solution. Why do you think everything is so weak and hardly any gear choices, or viable traits/skills? Because MOST calls for nerfs are made selfishly.

I love it when people take this stance, which is a tactic to strawman a discussion. The idea is to encourage the idea that everyone is too stupid, emotional, and biased, to even have the right to be discussing anything at all. The idea is to appear as insightful as someone who is outside of the argument who is completely neutral to the topic, who is simply pointing out how stupid everyone is for even engaging the discussion to begin with.

Well I've got some news for you:

1. Your statement is insulting as hell to the community and no better than someone defending the class directly. Attempting to stall discussion on what is wrong with and how to fix balance issues that are already widely identified by telling everyone they are mentally incompetent to even talk about what is happening, is flat out agenda driven social deception at a try-hard level. That or a sincere projection from a person who in truth, is actually the one that is emotional, who has nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion at all.
2. Most of the discussion I see from the collective player base about balance and how to fix it, has always been much more accurate in assessment than the strange patching Arenanet chooses to do. We've all seen it, we've all discussed it. I wish more players would care to drop their feedback because the more people who identify and agree on the same thing, the more this shows developers what the player base wants. The only way to do that, is to begin discussion about a topic. That is what forums are designed for. That's why people are here in this forum having discussions.
3. If you don't like forum discussions or have nothing productive to contribute or simply do not understand the forum discussions, you can stop reading them, stop posting in them, and stop worrying about it.

~ Some things to consider there. Thanks for reading.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I love it when people take this stance, which is a tactic to strawman a discussion. The idea is to encourage the idea that everyone is too stupid, emotional, and biased, to even have the right to be discussing anything at all. The idea is to appear as insightful as someone who is outside of the argument who is completely neutral to the topic, who is simply pointing out how stupid everyone is for even engaging the discussion to begin with.

Well I've got some news for you:

1. Your statement is insulting as hell to the community and no better than someone defending the class directly. Attempting to stall discussion on what is wrong with and how to fix balance issues that are already widely identified by telling everyone they are mentally incompetent to even talk about what is happening, is flat out agenda driven social deception at a try-hard level. That or a sincere projection from a person who in truth, is actually the one that is emotional, who has nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion at all.
2. Most of the discussion I see from the collective player base about balance and how to fix it, has always been much more accurate in assessment than the strange patching Arenanet chooses to do. We've all seen it, we've all discussed it. I wish more players would care to drop their feedback because the more people who identify and agree on the same thing, the more this shows developers what the player base wants. The only way to do that, is to begin discussion about a topic. That is what forums are designed for. That's why people are here in this forum having discussions.
3. If you don't like forum discussions or have nothing productive to contribute or simply do not understand the forum discussions, you can stop reading them, stop posting in them, and stop worrying about it.

~ Some things to consider there. Thanks for reading.

Everyone here is emotional. Including you and me. The frustration in your post should be clear to anyone reading. That doesn't in anyway disprove what you've said though. 

Our emotions color our perception. Whether we're aware of it or not. people who claim to be unemotional or unbiased are lying. People who do so genuinely are lying to themselves, but this isn't the time to get philosophical, so lets get back on topic. 

There's no denying that Willbender is strong. It's got mobility, damage, cleanse, and defense all rolled into a neat package. It also has the benefit of being built upon what is arguably in the top 2 most solid core specs in the game, so there's a lot of potential variety in buildcraft. 

I could offer anecdotal evidence pertaining to my duels against friends, but I don't consider myself "good" by any stretch of the imagination. Sadly people who are considered good haven't really chimed in in any real depth about how matchups or teamcomps play out. It's mostly been general statements about what in the kit is too strong, taking that as a given, and stating how it's detrimental to the game mode. 

There's nothing wrong with that discussion, but it skips all the nuance and gets right to the problem solving step, which sets us up for the usual outcome: nerfing the wrong things, hurting build diversity, blah blah, you've heard the spiel before. 

[Gundam Style.8495]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I love it when people take this stance, which is a tactic to strawman a discussion. The idea is to encourage the idea that everyone is too stupid, emotional, and biased, to even have the right to be discussing anything at all. The idea is to appear as insightful as someone who is outside of the argument who is completely neutral to the topic, who is simply pointing out how stupid everyone is for even engaging the discussion to begin with.

Well I've got some news for you:

1. Your statement is insulting as hell to the community and no better than someone defending the class directly. Attempting to stall discussion on what is wrong with and how to fix balance issues that are already widely identified by telling everyone they are mentally incompetent to even talk about what is happening, is flat out agenda driven social deception at a try-hard level. That or a sincere projection from a person who in truth, is actually the one that is emotional, who has nothing worthwhile to contribute to the discussion at all.
2. Most of the discussion I see from the collective player base about balance and how to fix it, has always been much more accurate in assessment than the strange patching Arenanet chooses to do. We've all seen it, we've all discussed it. I wish more players would care to drop their feedback because the more people who identify and agree on the same thing, the more this shows developers what the player base wants. The only way to do that, is to begin discussion about a topic. That is what forums are designed for. That's why people are here in this forum having discussions.
3. If you don't like forum discussions or have nothing productive to contribute or simply do not understand the forum discussions, you can stop reading them, stop posting in them, and stop worrying about it.

~ Some things to consider there. Thanks for reading.

 

They may be intended to be the ultimate chaser, so I can't say I agree with your OP. You want to leave the DPS and remove their ability to chase.

On 5/5/2022 at 11:34 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ Thread title

It needs to lose some of its chase potential.

It's not the DPS that's a problem, it's the chase potential.

~ Thanks

That's probably not your call, and many don't agree with it. It does give guardian a new and probably fun way to play it. It also appears many players are staying with one playstyle and making assessments with non-meta builds. If you have a dueling class, you don't have to run from a willbender, because they are not the best duelist in game.

 

I wouldn't say they need to be nerfed in movement, and if anything they need just to not be able to share their f-skills, and be completely selfish in design. It would be fine at that point because it can play for itself. It doesn't need to be fixed, and yes many hot heads rush here after a loss to a class, and those same hot heads defend their class with just as much passion. So, no, I can't be too far off from thinking passion has overtaken logic and reason.

 

Play the class more to find it's weaknesses, and if everyone plays it, surely Anet will notice something is not right, but I don't think it is nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Perhaps they are just really good at chasing down ganking 1 shot soulbeasts?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Gundam Style.8495

[myun.6395]

26 minutes ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

 

They may be intended to be the ultimate chaser, so I can't say I agree with your OP. You want to leave the DPS and remove their ability to chase.

That's probably not your call, and many don't agree with it. It does give guardian a new and probably fun way to play it. It also appears many players are staying with one playstyle and making assessments with non-meta builds. If you have a dueling class, you don't have to run from a willbender, because they are not the best duelist in game.

 

I wouldn't say they need to be nerfed in movement, and if anything they need just to not be able to share their f-skills, and be completely selfish in design. It would be fine at that point because it can play for itself. It doesn't need to be fixed, and yes many hot heads rush here after a loss to a class, and those same hot heads defend their class with just as much passion. So, no, I can't be too far off from thinking passion has overtaken logic and reason.

 

Play the class more to find it's weaknesses, and if everyone plays it, surely Anet will notice something is not right, but I don't think it is nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Perhaps they are just really good at chasing down ganking 1 shot soulbeasts?

Well, name a spec that willbender is currently struggling to 1vs1?

You need to avoid F1, sword5 and sword4, gs2 and gs5, you need to avoid whirling light as well, you should try dodge the blinds as well, and kite when they pop F3 which is on a too low cd.

 

Doesn't matter what duelist sidenoder i am playing, every willbender just push me because it has killing opportunity.

Unlike power herald it's not weak to condis, it's not weak too cc either, it cannot be chased unless you play willbender as well.

 

Its only counter it's another willbender.

For a spec with that crazy damage and mobility it's just stupid balance.

 

I'm all ears.

[Gundam Style.8495]

6 minutes ago, myun.6395 said:

Well, name a spec that willbender is currently struggling to 1vs1?

You need to avoid F1, sword5 and sword4, gs2 and gs5, you need to avoid whirling light as well, you should try dodge the blinds as well, and kite when they pop F3 which is on a too low cd.

 

Doesn't matter what duelist sidenoder i am playing, every willbender just push me because it has killing opportunity.

Unlike power herald it's not weak to condis, it's not weak too cc either, it cannot be chased unless you play willbender as well.

 

Its only counter it's another willbender.

For a spec with that crazy damage and mobility it's just stupid balance.

 

I'm all ears.

 

You said its only counter is another willbender, so I think no matter what I say you are not actually "all ears". It appears rangers are really struggling with willbender right now, but that doesn't mean every class is, and saying "nothing" can chase them down lol. You compare them to a class that can, in fact, chase them down.

[Parasalin.4137]

Willbender is overtuned but the mobility/chase potential isnt the problem because guard needed a mobile spec. It's the massive damage and defensives together that make it hard to deal with. Nerfs should be taken slowly with it, and there some specs that theoretically should counter it but are in desperate need of buffs. 

[Kuma.1503]

I don't know whether or not Willbender is winning most/all 1v1s, but the idea of an in depth discussion might be a bit too... optimistic for one thread. Instead of flat nerfs. I'll try to propose some redesigns that should make the spec more healthy to fight regardless of it's current strength in the meta. 

From what I can gather, Willbender is suppsoed to be mobile and glassy. It should be losing to duelist specs, and it should naturally counter specs like DE, Ranger, Scepter Weaver, ect. Anything that doesn't want you up in its face. 

That begs the question of what you can do to it to ensure that it isn't freely winning 1v1s. 

One of the downsides of having mostly targeted mobility is that you can't disengage if things turn sour, perhaps that should be one of their intended weaknesses. You could accomplish that by making f1 targeted. 

You could also make F2 a flip skill instead of a 2 charge skill. Make the first cast a 600 range leap towards a target, healing and summoning flames if it lands. If the initial hit is dodged or blocked, the skill fizzles. In exchange, reduce the hits to trigger to 3 in PvP.  

The second cast can end the skill early, port you backwards and grant additional healing/cleanses based on the number of justice procs you earned. Make the maximum value you get from this nice and chunky.  a chunky burst heal and 5 cleanses. If you don't end the skill early, make it still give the heals and cleanse, but not the backwards port. (This way you aren't forced to port backwards in PvE)

If the Willbender is running Absolute resolve, share this second portion with its teammates as well. There could be some playmaking potential there in teamfights. 

This would add a counterpaly to their main cleanse. First you have to land this skill. If you do, you can go in and be aggressive knowing you've got an out to keep you safe. If you whiff or enemy spec can deny your procs you wont earn your heals or your cleanses. More importantly, If you've already got condis on you, this won't suffice as a panic button. That should make their matchups a bit harder. 

This would also hurt willbender's disengage. Fewer free target dashes. It should be good at sticking to its targets and it should have good matchups against specs that want to kite, but it should be vulnerable when caught out, and it be at a disadvantage agaisnt duelist specs. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Ragnar.4257]

2 hours ago, myun.6395 said:

Well, name a spec that willbender is currently struggling to 1vs1?

From just EoD specs, Catalyst, Bladesworn, Vindicator, Spectre, Mechanist.

You don't see Willbenders taking those 1v1 unless there's a very obvious difference in skill.

Here is Naru failing to kill a vindicator 3v1, eventually has to give up and just leave:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1466845449?t=0h39m37s

If you think WB wins literally ever single 1v1 matchup, you're just wrong. That doesn't mean it isn't really good, but 1v1 ability is not why it is good. If you're taking 1v1s as Willbender, you're playing it wrong.

There are MANY off-meta builds that are actually really good 1v1, but they don't see much action in conquest because they really fall behind once fights escalate to 3+ vs 3+ . There are also plenty of meta builds that are meta because they dominate teamfights, but kinda suck 1v1. 1v1 ability is not everything.  If you think 1v1 is all there is to pvp, you really have a lot to learn.

Edited May 8, 2022 by Ragnar.4257

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Kuma.1503 said:

Everyone here is emotional. Including you and me. The frustration in your post should be clear to anyone reading. That doesn't in anyway disprove what you've said though. 

Our emotions color our perception. Whether we're aware of it or not. people who claim to be unemotional or unbiased are lying.

Stop this nonsense.

Saying that humans are so emotionally distraught that they are unable to perceive & relay information accurately to each other is a ridiculous notion. Saying that humans are so mentally incompetent that they would be unable to accurately gauge "which character is the strongest" in a video game, is just ridiculous.

The truth is that everyone here, including you and me, are well aware that gamers are able to figure out "what the strongest is" or "what is broken" clearly and inarguably, when we see the strongest or broken specs being multi-stacked in teams. That definitely happens when players figure out that something is really strong or broken. This is why there are 2+ Willbenders in many games that you join right now, and why it is being discussed in a balance thread in the forum.

It's nothing new, it happens in every game.

[gmmg.9210]

On 5/5/2022 at 10:34 PM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

^ Thread title

It needs to lose some of its chase potential.

It's not the DPS that's a problem, it's the chase potential.

~ Thanks

Willbender gets FIVE stacks of stab and THREE extra with its f3. Boons rip does nothing. Anet couldn't be more biased if they tried

[Kuma.1503]

24 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Stop this nonsense.

Saying that humans are so emotionally distraught that they are unable to perceive & relay information accurately to each other is a ridiculous notion. Saying that humans are so mentally incompetent that they would be unable to accurately gauge "which character is the strongest" in a video game, is just ridiculous.

The truth is that everyone here, including you and me, are well aware that gamers are able to figure out "what the strongest is" or "what is broken" clearly and inarguably, when we see the strongest or broken specs being multi-stacked in teams. That definitely happens when players figure out that something is really strong or broken. This is why there are 2+ Willbenders in many games that you join right now, and why it is being discussed in a balance thread in the forum.

It's nothing new, it happens in every game.

You're absolutely right. People aren't so emotionally distraught that they can't comprehend very obvious evidence when it's slapped in front of their faces, but that's not the point I was trying to make. I attempted to make that clear when I said that being emotional does NOT in anyway mean that anything you said was wrong, but... taking the overall conversation into context, I can see where the misunderstanding came from. Perhaps I could have also communicated my point better. 

This is my point in more clear terms:

People can accurately point out which builds are overperforming in the meta. They've generally been on point with this. 

Anet has also been on point when it comes to nerfing the correct builds. 

What people are not so good at is pinpointing WHAT in a build is overperforming. This is the part that is most subject to bias. 

This a a problem I recall you yourself running into when Ranger was the hot topic. People would assume that every ranger build was simultanously a Sic Em One shot ranger and a Knight amulet core ranger duelist and people would complain that ranger did too damage with longbow oneshots while simultanously being unkillable on side nodes. 

A clear case of bias clouding perception. People expected to see an overpowered build that could do it all, and they took in all data that confirmed that suspicion to be correct while ignoring all counter-evidence. 

Ranger absolutely WAS a strong build back then, but people could not accurately assess what needed to be changed and where the problems lied. 

All I'm asking for is a discussion to determine what, if any, problems Willbender has and how to fix them. 

How do their matchups actually play out? Which matchups are their easiest/hardest. These are all useful data points to have on the table because it helps us narrow down where the problems are.

What most of us are doing right now is picking which parts of a spec we don't like and claiming that as the culprit with nothing to back it up. That's a problem. 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Kuya.6495]

So what do people want nerfed on willbender exactly? I've seen complaints about damage, mobility and boons. From design perspective it sounds like wb is supposed to do high damage and have high mobility, so is the issue the boons from the virtues traitline (you need to hit multiple times after activating a virtue on wb and this is meant to be a tradeoff, but virtues traitline gives you on demand boons and shares it with allies)?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Kuma.1503 said:

What most of us are doing right now is picking which parts of a spec we don't like and claiming that as the culprit with nothing to back it up. That's a problem.

Yes, I see what you're saying, but I for one am not doing that at all.

I have given elaborate feedback in this thread as to exactly what I feel the problem is, and explained that I feel it is no normal balance issue but rather an issue that is challenging the very integrity of the game mode's dynamic in general. I've brought this up in several other threads about how mobility creep amongst all classes is actually causing much more problems than power creep, at least for the game of Conquest it is.

On a side note, I personally am not having much trouble with Willbenders. This thread is not a complaint thread after I died to a Willbender. This thread is a "Hey Arenanet, might want to pay attention to this" after I've been doing 4 to 5 ATs a day since EoD release, and I've seen where Willbenders are taking the dynamic of the game mode. If you reread my posts, I never claim it is OP or beating everything in 1v1s or anything like that. I specifically state that the level of mobility it has been granted has breached the point of "too much mobility within the intra-class dynamic" to where most classes have no reason to even attempt to disengage this class or really reposition at all, past dodge rolls or other very small movements. This is changing how the game dynamic in Conquest plays out in what I feel is an unhealthy change to the game, which makes it more boring to play. It is dumbing down the mental stimulation factor within the purpose of "Should I stay and fight? Should I peel? Should I kite it? Should I attempt to run to a team mate?" because there is no option other than to immediately grant all focus to standing still and combating the Willbender if it focuses you. There is no reason to attempt to run from something that sticks to you like super glue. The only option is to immediately stop what you're doing and 1v1 it with full focus, because unless you're a Thief with a lot of stealth disengage and effects like Shadow Step to return to some position way out of the Willbender's range, you will die if you waste time turning tail and attempting to run from it. With all the mobility creep in this game, it is turning into a situation where everything has twice the chase potential that it has disengage potential, which is resulting in a game dynamic where you enter a combat and you win or die trying.

We used to have a large margin of realistic choices to make when something engaged us: "Should I stay? Should I kite it to stall? Should I be very aggressive wth it? Should I play on or off node? Should I run to team mates?" But the mobility creep, especially when set to such a high level as with Willbender, is turning that list of options into: "Oh it's on me now. I have to stay and fight or die" this is just eliminating mental stimulation and the importance of rotations. It's similar to the difference between Chess and Checkers. Chess just has so many more options to find ways to counter-play an opponent. When a master Chess player goes against an amateur, he could win the game while maintaining 80% or more of his pieces. But when a master Checker player goes against an amateur Checker player, he could only ever beat the amateur while having like 2 pieces left at the end, because that's how few options are provided in the game of Checkers. Amateurs are making the same moves as Masters in the game of Checkers, because there just aren't other options. This is what is happening in GW2 Conquest with too much mobility creep and no buffs to disengage to balance. Chess is beginning to turn into Checkers, where the difference between a master and an amateur really isn't very big because so many options are being removed for wise counter-play.

They've already done this to our job roles over the years. In the beginning and well into HoT meta, we had various differnet types of build archetypes that could be listed under 4 main archetypes: Team Fighter - Support - Roamer - Side Noder. Within those 4 main job roles, there were many viable sub-archetypes that acould be listed under those, like Team Fighter DPS, Team Fighter CC Control, Team Fighter Offensive Boon Generation, Heal/Cleanse Support, Utility Support, Boon Remove/Conversion Support, +1 Classic Roamers Power or Condi, Side Node Bunkers, Side Node Decaps, Side Node Duelists. But Arenanet started trying to normalize all classes to be the exact same by buffing everything and giving everything every effect, while seriously limiting pvp gear/amulet selections, which has resulted in the disappearance of most of our distinct job roles. Now Team Fighters and Roamers are buffed to somehow be the same thing, like a Willbender. Supports are also somehow Team fighters and often sustainy enough in 1v1s to even stall a node cap solo when they need to. Dedicated Roamer builds only exist in the form of a few remaining glass cannon specs who aren't hot in team fights, and the rest of the Roamers are Roamer/Team Fight hybrids. We have the disappearance of true Bunkers, and no Mechanist is nothing like the Bunkers of old. We have no separaton between Side Node Decap or Side Node Duelist, everything does everything now. So the only real job roles left are: Support - Team Fighter/Roamer - Side Node Duelist, and even Side Node Duelists are falling out in this team fight meta that has such high moblity, that you can't get to a side node to tag a 1v1 for any longer than about 10s before you get +'d.

Simply put, the game of Conquest once felt like Chess, where all the different pieces were doing different things, and it required a masterful grasp of all of these things to understand how to wield them all correctly. But now Conquest is beginning to feel like Checkers, where everything does the same thing, and chase potential is so high compared to disengage potential, that the only option to take when combat ensues, is to stay and win or die, no more list of options to make the game interesting and less predictable.

I'll say it again, this thread was no idle complaint about "i LoSt 2 A wiLLbLeNder" with a bunch of biased class hate and dumb suggestions that don't make sense. I have been playing this game for 10 years and 23,000 matches. I am being completely serious in as non-biased of a way as I can, when I point out that this level of mobility creep not only needs to stop, but it needs to be reverted. This problem is about Willbender, but it really isn't about Willbender, it's about mobility creep in general. It's just Willbender is the milestone point where they decided to officially take the mobility to a place it does not need to be, for all of the reasons that I have already mentioned.

That's my opinion anyway.

If people can't see that feedback like this is coming from a place of a great deal of knowledge & experience playing Guild Wars 2, whether they agree with it or not, well I don't know what else to say other than that I for one cannot take a response seriously unless a person is able to contribute actual discussion with explanation, rather than throwing around Ad Hominems and only Ad Hominems. 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Kuma.1503]

1 hour ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Yes, I see what you're saying, but I for one am not doing that at all.

I have given elaborate feedback in this thread as to exactly what I feel the problem is, and explained that I feel it is no normal balance issue but rather an issue that is challenging the very integrity of the game mode's dynamic in general. I've brought this up in several other threads about how mobility creep amongst all classes is actually causing much more problems than power creep, at least for the game of Conquest it is.

On a side note, I personally am not having much trouble with Willbenders. This thread is not a complaint thread after I died to a Willbender. This thread is a "Hey Arenanet, might want to pay attention to this" after I've been doing 4 to 5 ATs a day since EoD release, and I've seen where Willbenders are taking the dynamic of the game mode. If you reread my posts, I never claim it is OP or beating everything in 1v1s or anything like that. I specifically state that the level of mobility it has been granted has breached the point of "too much mobility within the intra-class dynamic" to where most classes have no reason to even attempt to disengage this class or really reposition at all, past dodge rolls or other very small movements. This is changing how the game dynamic in Conquest plays out in what I feel is an unhealthy change to the game, which makes it more boring to play. It is dumbing down the mental stimulation factor within the purpose of "Should I stay and fight? Should I peel? Should I kite it? Should I attempt to run to a team mate?" because there is no option other than to immediately grant all focus to standing still and combating the Willbender if it focuses you. There is no reason to attempt to run from something that sticks to you like super glue. The only option is to immediately stop what you're doing and 1v1 it with full focus, because unless you're a Thief with a lot of stealth disengage and effects like Shadow Step to return to some position way out of the Willbender's range, you will die if you waste time turning tail and attempting to run from it. With all the mobility creep in this game, it is turning into a situation where everything has twice the chase potential that it has disengage potential, which is resulting in a game dynamic where you enter a combat and you win or die trying.

We used to have a large margin of realistic choices to make when something engaged us: "Should I stay? Should I kite it to stall? Should I be very aggressive wth it? Should I play on or off node? Should I run to team mates?" But the mobility creep, especially when set to such a high level as with Willbender, is turning that list of options into: "Oh it's on me now. I have to stay and fight or die" this is just eliminating mental stimulation and the importance of rotations. It's similar to the difference between Chess and Checkers. Chess just has so many more options to find ways to counter-play an opponent. When a master Chess player goes against an amateur, he could win the game while maintaining 80% or more of his pieces. But when a master Checker player goes against an amateur Checker player, he could only ever beat the amateur while having like 2 pieces left at the end, because that's how few options are provided in the game of Checkers. Amateurs are making the same moves as Masters in the game of Checkers, because there just aren't other options. This is what is happening in GW2 Conquest with too much mobility creep and no buffs to disengage to balance. Chess is beginning to turn into Checkers, where the difference between a master and an amateur really isn't very big because so many options are being removed for wise counter-play.

They've already done this to our job roles over the years. In the beginning and well into HoT meta, we had various differnet types of build archetypes that could be listed under 4 main archetypes: Team Fighter - Support - Roamer - Side Noder. Within those 4 main job roles, there were many viable sub-archetypes that acould be listed under those, like Team Fighter DPS, Team Fighter CC Control, Team Fighter Offensive Boon Generation, Heal/Cleanse Support, Utility Support, Boon Remove/Conversion Support, +1 Classic Roamers Power or Condi, Side Node Bunkers, Side Node Decaps, Side Node Duelists. But Arenanet started trying to normalize all classes to be the exact same by buffing everything and giving everything every effect, while seriously limiting pvp gear/amulet selections, which has resulted in the disappearance of most of our distinct job roles. Now Team Fighters and Roamers are buffed to somehow be the same thing, like a Willbender. Supports are also somehow Team fighters and often sustainy enough in 1v1s to even stall a node cap solo when they need to. Dedicated Roamer builds only exist in the form of a few remaining glass cannon specs who aren't hot in team fights, and the rest of the Roamers are Roamer/Team Fight hybrids. We have the disappearance of true Bunkers, and no Mechanist is nothing like the Bunkers of old. We have no separaton between Side Node Decap or Side Node Duelist, everything does everything now. So the only real job roles left are: Support - Team Fighter/Roamer - Side Node Duelist, and even Side Node Duelists are falling out in this team fight meta that has such high moblity, that you can't get to a side node to tag a 1v1 for any longer than about 10s before you get +'d.

Simply put, the game of Conquest once felt like Chess, where all the different pieces were doing different things, and it required a masterful grasp of all of these things to understand how to wield them all correctly. But now Conquest is beginning to feel like Checkers, where everything does the same thing, and chase potential is so high compared to disengage potential, that the only option to take when combat ensues, is to stay and win or die, no more list of options to make the game interesting and less predictable.

I'll say it again, this thread was no idle complaint about "i LoSt 2 A wiLLbLeNder" with a bunch of biased class hate and dumb suggestions that don't make sense. I have been playing this game for 10 years and 23,000 matches. I am being completely serious in as non-biased of a way as I can, when I point out that this level of mobility creep not only needs to stop, but it needs to be reverted. This problem is about Willbender, but it really isn't about Willbender, it's about mobility creep in general. It's just Willbender is the milestone point where they decided to officially take the mobility to a place it does not need to be, for all of the reasons that I have already mentioned.

That's my opinion anyway.

If people can't see that feedback like this is coming from a place of a great deal of knowledge & experience playing Guild Wars 2, whether they agree with it or not, well I don't know what else to say other than that I for one cannot take a response seriously unless a person is able to contribute actual discussion with explanation, rather than throwing around Ad Hominems and only Ad Hominems. 

 

I suppose this was a misunderstanding from both sides.

If I'm understanding your point, it's not that Willbender is necessarily unbeatable/OP, but that its existance dumbs down the game mode by restricting options down to a binary choice: Fight or Die. 

The way the matchups for Willbender generally play out is that once it engages on you, there's no point trying to run because it will catch you. Trying to run is detrimental because the time you spent running was time you could have spent counter pressuring, and unless you're a build that CAN effectively counterpressure or tank through a Willbender (like the bunker vindiator from Ragnar's example), you're boned. 

Which means that the meta would shift to include more builds like bunker vindicator that can survive a Willbender sticking to it like glue. 

This... would be an issue of a class dumbing down the game and warping the meta around it in a way that would ultimately hurt the game mode. 

That's pretty compelling, and so far I haven't seen much evidence to the contrary. If I were Anet I'd  take your suggestions under consideration. They have the data to check this stuff. 

I still have a few questions. Would this still be the case if there were a wider range of builds capable of beating willbender? What if it cleanly lost to pRev for example? Can it still stick to its target if there is an ally/support to provide peel? What if it was made more vulnerable to conditions or had more of a mobility trade-off for attempting to cleanse them? Something similar to my earlier suggestion. 

Ultimately, it comes down to whether a high mobility build like Willbender can exist in a healthy manner provided that the counterplay to it is there? Or is the mobility creep too much for the game mode to handle as you've said?

Edited May 8, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[Poledra Val.1490]

After reading some things here about what can counter Willbender in PvP I assure you a good Bladesworn can easily outsustain and eventually kill off even the best of Willbenders. Just watch Drazeh's 1v1s on Willbender against Rom's Bladesworn in his VODs.

[Pimsley.3681]

Willbender is overtuned however, if it were to be nerfed, it shouldn't be done in haste that will render the WB and perhaps even core, useless because it's within the core grandmaster trait that made the WB a tad bit overtuned. 

 

I've noticed guardian mains here have suggested fair nerfs that would still make the spec playable but not completely useless. 

 

Vindicator is still pretty good but was a tad bit over nerfed, yet there are some specs being played now that are doing well in ranked. I also agree that 1v1, the damage output of a well played WB cannot counter the sustainability of a bladesworn. Sadly, warriors were under-represented at the MAT and hope next MAT we see a few. 

Like in high school, when the team captains chose players to play on their team, the warrior was the sad kid that no one chose. 

I played for the girl's varsity team sophomore year high school due to my ability to switch between shooting and point guard. The tryouts freshman year was the most stressful thing I experienced so far in my life at the time. 

[myun.6395]

10 hours ago, Ragnar.4257 said:

From just EoD specs, Catalyst, Bladesworn, Vindicator, Spectre, Mechanist.

You don't see Willbenders taking those 1v1 unless there's a very obvious difference in skill.

Here is Naru failing to kill a vindicator 3v1, eventually has to give up and just leave:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1466845449?t=0h39m37s

If you think WB wins literally ever single 1v1 matchup, you're just wrong. That doesn't mean it isn't really good, but 1v1 ability is not why it is good. If you're taking 1v1s as Willbender, you're playing it wrong.

There are MANY off-meta builds that are actually really good 1v1, but they don't see much action in conquest because they really fall behind once fights escalate to 3+ vs 3+ . There are also plenty of meta builds that are meta because they dominate teamfights, but kinda suck 1v1. 1v1 ability is not everything.  If you think 1v1 is all there is to pvp, you really have a lot to learn.

Dude, catalyst really? One mistake and you die as cata against willbender, lighting rod is useless against willy, dagger/dagger can stale on point, but you wont have the damage to kill willy unless he kittens up really hard, you run avatar usually on this build, watch grim.

Bladesworn and vindi gets farmed by willbender 1vs1 as well. Bladesworn will be more durable and prolly it's a waste of time, that's why willbender won't go for it, because will take too much.

Specter maybe won't die because will teleport away, but doesn't have a kill condition on willbender as well, both power or condi doesn't matter, and with one shadowstep as stunbreak you are dead meat easily.

Mechanist, unless plays full bunker with no damage, can be killed by willbender as well, I saw that happen in plat2 games, and not in some random pug game with silver players.

 

And omg, naru failed to 3vs1 what? A bunker full healing rev xD which is another broken spec in terms of defense and bunkering worse than mechanist. That vindi won't kill you, he just kite and survive using skill off cooldown. 

 

Also I know willbender it's not the 1vs1 role, but now you get why it's utterly broken?

If your team is not that good and your duelists sidenoders won't go do their job and instead teamfight only, you can cover the 1vs1 role and carry your team, while a power herald or other +1 specs don't have that luxury, because unless the skill cap is insanely high, you get tapped by duelists, willbender does not. And of course you can go back being a roamer +1 and help team fights as well.

That's the problem with willbender, it does too much, cover too many roles, and it's too easy to play and get rewarded.

You can keep the damage that high if you gut the sustain and the sharing of f skills.