Tired Of Willbender - Get It Under Control Please - Mobility Creep Is A Problem

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

1 hour ago, Creativity.3816 said:

Someone ought to analyze the psychology of writing forum novels to the dev team that only knows how to adjust cooldown and damage of skills up and down by 5%

But then you'd also have to analyze the psychology of people who log into alt accounts to make comments like this.

[felix.2386]

6 hours ago, Creativity.3816 said:

Someone ought to analyze the psychology of writing forum novels to the dev team that only knows how to adjust cooldown and damage of skills up and down by 5%

they downed arc divider damage by 25% tho

[myun.6395]

On 5/11/2022 at 12:39 AM, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

What you see discussed & suggested in this forum, at least by older veteran players who actually know what they're talking about who compete within the 1500-1800 margins, is usually really solid evaluation. They may argue with how to very specifically fix something, but they almost always unanimously agree when there is something wrong with a class or it is simply overperforming in general. Why Arenanet chooses to ignore this clearly very experienced feedback, it indicates to me at least, that their patch model may be aiming more at "stirring the bucket" just to keep things different, than the priority of actually balancing the game.

This is supported by the fact that they will straight up aim at weird pvp skill splits and buffs or nerfs to odd things that not a single person ever even wrote up a thread to discuss at all. In other words, no one said it was OP, no one saying it was UP, no one saying it needed mechanical changes. They will just straight up aim at and change things that 99% of the player base would completely agree actually represents what IS balanced in GW2 pvp. The pvp changes over the years have often felt completely random, as if they actually had a dart board setup in a room somewhere, and things written all over it like: "Warrior's Sprint" "Well Of Corruption" "Juvenile Pig" "Rune Of The Fighter" and wherever the dart lands, that's what gets targeted for next round of patching. They then flip a coin to see if it gets buffed or nerfed.

The explanation is simple, they do not play the game they are balancing.

When they know they need to do a balance patch for nerfs or buffs, they maybe hear rumours in reddit, forum, from private message, from streamers, and choose randomly what people are asking.

They heard for sure how broken willbendes and harbingers are, but they ignored them to keep selling eod, guardian and necro are the 2 most meta classes in every single gamemode, they are the 2 single classes most played and with more playtime.

They for sure have analytical datas, for example:

Gw2 has 100.000 active players (random number).

35% play guardian in every gamemode, 35% necro. That's like 70% of the playerbase right there. Most played, more playtime, means more gems, more money. If you go too hardcore and nerfs those classes, they have that 70% playerbase at risk. If your main it's not meta anymore you tend to play less, maybe at first try another class, but then you start playing less and less, they cannot afford this.

That is why they took 2 years to nerf core necro, but at the same time with eod, they give necros another busted spec to have them buy eod and keep playing.

Who care of mechanist, specter, warrior, eles, those professions have 2% playerbase, they nerf them over and over without caring, because they have the datas and they know they can.

[Creativity.3816]

19 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

But then you'd also have to analyze the psychology of people who log into alt accounts to make comments like this.

....?

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Gamemode is dead, this kitten isnt fun anymore and its never going to get better. Anet has no integrity when it comes to pvp.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

Now imagine they nerf the spec into the ground as per this forum post just as people were starting to theory-craft not OP builds with it.

 

Anyway just my point of view from the games I’ve played in ranked…I’ve not had an issue with Willbender. My play style as a Reaper involves counter pressure as it’s main defensive features…so I actually want enemies to get in melle range with me. So Willbenders make for a good snack. They do however seem to be really good at running away.

I can see though how other specs would have a hard time with Willbender…I don’t understand how the build works fully either (haven’t really played the game in months) so I would take the side of Kuma and Gundam here…ask for improvements in useless skills so that you can run builds with alternative defensive measures that counter Willbender. Let’s not nerf yet another build into the ground like the previous hundred (thousand) builds that sit there.

Edited May 14, 2022 by JusticeRetroHunter.7684

[Kuya.6495]

I played a match yesterday as willbender and the enemy team also had 1 willbender. They also had a tempest , a bunker mech, a DD and a harbinger.  My team  had a druid who went far all game and complained that he couldn't 2v1 a thf and willbender. We also had a core rev , a spellbreaker, and a core mesmer on our team.

 

We got stomped and my team complained that willbender is OP.

 

This is what I imagine motivates people to make threads on the official forums.

Edited May 14, 2022 by Kuya.6495

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

22 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

I played a match yesterday as willbender and the enemy team also had 1 willbender. They also had a tempest , a bunker mech, a DD and a harbinger.  My team  had a druid who went far all game and complained that he couldn't 2v1 a thf and willbender. We also had a core rev , a spellbreaker, and a core mesmer on our team.

 

We got stomped and my team complained that willbender is OP.

 

This is what I imagine motivates people to make threads on the official forums.

Or maybe just maybe, seeing as how humans have figured out how to build skyscrapers & computers, they just might be able to identify when a character in a video game is overperforming.

[Gundam Style.8495]

4 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Or maybe just maybe, seeing as how humans have figured out how to build skyscrapers & computers, they just might be able to identify when a character in a video game is overperforming.

 

Not every human can build skyscrapers or computers.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 minutes ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

 

Not every human can build skyscrapers or computers.

Ok

Can you tell the difference between something that is "big" and something that is "small"?

If I put a large red cup on a table next to a small blue cup, could you accurately judge which cup is larger?

A full grown man is loading a Harley Davidson into the back of a truck while across the street a 4 year old struggles to push a plastic tricycle up a driveway. Who is physically stronger? The man or the boy?

If there are 2+ Willbenders and a Guardian Support in every GW2 pvp game but Warrior based classes are ever rarely seen at all, which class do you think is overperforming and which class do you think is underperforming?

[Gundam Style.8495]

Just now, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

Ok

Can you tell the difference between something that is "big" and something that is "small"?

If I put a large red cup on a table next to a small blue cup, could you accurately judge which cup is larger?

A full grown man is loading a Harley Davidson into the back of a truck while across the street a 4 year old struggles to push a plastic tricycle up a driveway. Who is physically stronger? The man or the boy?

If there are 2+ Willbenders and a Guardian Support in every GW2 pvp game but Warrior based classes are ever rarely seen at all, which class do you think is overperforming and which class do you think is underperforming?

It is hard to tell if something is overperforming when so many things are underperforming. Perhaps willbenders and harbingers should be the standard that everything else is brought up to. You can't point at green grass and then dead grass and ask which one is healthier.

[MuscleBobBuffPants.1406]

You know mobility creep is a very interesting way of putting it.  Never thought about it that way.  I remember way back in 2012/2013, when they introduced the game, it felt like movement was much slower in general.  It felt like dodging and endurance had a much bigger impact, because dodging was the way to mitigate an attack or get out of the way of an AOE.  But when you look at the mobility now it is through the roof.  People jumping all over the place.   

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 5/14/2022 at 5:33 PM, Gundam Style.8495 said:

It is hard to tell if something is overperforming when so many things are underperforming. Perhaps willbenders and harbingers should be the standard that everything else is brought up to. You can't point at green grass and then dead grass and ask which one is healthier.

I'm not even talking about what is OP and what is UP on a scale of class vs. class.

This thread is primarily talking about what happens to the game mode and the maps it was given when everything in the game begins to move way too fast. Also what happens to the game when things have twice as much chase potential as they do disengage.

[Gundam Style.8495]

12 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I'm not even talking about what is OP and what is UP on a scale of class vs. class.

This thread is primarily talking about what happens to the game mode and the maps it was given when everything in the game begins to move way too fast. Also what happens to the game when things have twice as much chase potential as they do disengage.

 

If nerfs to mobility are the goal, then it would need to happen to other classes as well. If this campaign you are on is about absolute speed, and not relative speed, then you will have no problem to mobility cuts into your own favorite class. Afterall, the goal is to reduce mobility creep. So things like long range dash evades built into GS, superspeed from traits, and swiftness galore should see some cuts, and adding a teleport to the untamed, must have been a mistake.

My point is, asking for buffs for counters in an all-around low point of the game is the best way. I suggest that you focus on stand-your-ground buffs, the buffs that would make chasing you dangerous. Offensive powers, attacks should be returned in some respect, but this will need to be done across the board for the weakest. I don't believe ranger is in a terrible spot, but like many of the classes they are not in a meta spot.

The population is so small, but a lack of variety in what can be effectively played is the main culprit. When things become overall weaker, the support and attrition classes will be the strongest because they can hold out the longest. Damage must go up, it absolutely must, and cc damage must absolutely be returned for variety to increase.

No matter what nerfs you ask for now, you will recieve the same nerfs, and once again the "favorites" will stay on top. Buffing is the ONLY way to fix the game, nerfs have failed horribly.

So, ask for buffs.

[Poledra Val.1490]

The more i have played this season the more i realize that Harbinger is actually more of a broken spec then Willbender is, in fact i would go on to say its the most broken spec in PvP at the moment. Both need nerfs of course but the things Harbinger can do are pretty outrageous in comparison.

Edited May 22, 2022 by Poledra Val.1490

[Sonork.2916]

So what i hear is that guard shouldn't be allowed to catch other classes?   The high mobility of almost every other class is fine, but the second guard has some as well, it's time to cry nerf.  Because all classes need to be able to get away from guardians like they have since launch yeah?  k.

[Waffles.5632]

53 minutes ago, Sonork.2916 said:

So what i hear is that guard shouldn't be allowed to catch other classes?   The high mobility of almost every other class is fine, but the second guard has some as well, it's time to cry nerf.  Because all classes need to be able to get away from guardians like they have since launch yeah?  k.

There's a reason core guard had some of the least mobility, and wasn't given any. You are seeing it now in Willbender lol. It is more mobile than Mirage, or at the very least, on par, while being much much tankier, and having way more sustain.

 

So for comparison's sake, a major weakness of guardian has always been mobility, and willbender covers that w/o really taking away anything significant in return. I am not saying this is OP, but you can see/agree at the very least that it creates a bit of an unbalanced situation. A class that historically sacrificed mobility for defense now gets an elite that grants mobility and great aoe offense, thus you now have a class that has great defense, CC, Mobility, burst, aoe pressure, and sustain/counter focus. What don't they get? lol

People are not joking when they say it's herald 2.0. It is the current john wick of specs in pvp imo, especially in the hands of skilled players.

 

So yes, it's a bit of a problem that one of the most defensive class, literally called -guardian-, has more mobility than even the most nimble specs...while still keeping their defense. They need to give something up, orrrrrr, Anet buffs other classes up to bar, like giving mirage it's 2nd dodge back, or 3rd jaunt. (But those changes create even more problems, and that is with any class, so this is a can of worms imo.)

 

I wouldn't call willbender OP though, but rather overtuned still, and just too much atm. Tone it down some and it will be fine I think. It's a well designed spec and I enjoy the back and forth and the chases, it just sucks knowing that atm, there is literally nothing I can do to outrun them, they kinda decide when and where, so while I still have a chance, it's not really healthy gameplay since they can often just run away because no one can actually chase them atm except maybe thief or ranger? but idk I do not play those classes. I know as a Mirage, I can't.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Waffles.5632

[Sonork.2916]

1 hour ago, Waffles.5632 said:

I wouldn't call willbender OP though, but rather overtuned still, and just too much atm. Tone it down some and it will be fine I think. It's a well designed spec and I enjoy the back and forth and the chases, it just sucks knowing that atm, there is literally nothing I can do to outrun them, they kinda decide when and where, so while I still have a chance, it's not really healthy gameplay since they can often just run away because no one can actually chase them atm except maybe thief or ranger? but idk I do not play those classes. I know as a Mirage, I can't.

Pretty sure every class has a spec that can chase them, WB engage is far better than their disengage, since most of their mobility comes from targeted shadow steps.   ranger, teef, rev, ele, engi, harb, warr, mesmer can all spec to catch them.  Feels like people just dislike not being able to easily outrun guards like they have since launch.  I think classes not having an easy way to simply escape combat when threatened is a good thing.

Edited May 21, 2022 by Sonork.2916

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

I'm not going to respond to these individual statements as I have already covered these points.

Reread the thread guys.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

11 hours ago, Sonork.2916 said:

Pretty sure every class has a spec that can chase them, WB engage is far better than their disengage,

Dude they can use their target sills for disengage by targeting an opponent far away and teleporting at them.

[Hotride.2187]

There was a good (I think? I don't know?) wb in my last unranked game, kept blinking around the map when pressured. Even chased by 3 players it could live a decent amount of time (15-20 seconds).

Having dueled a lot in wvw I've had plenty of "woah this game gets really dumb" moments, but that was a highlight even for my experience.

[Tescao.3042]

Hey guys! So the guardian has become the omega version of the typical insta med guardian, which lacks CC skills with 0 damage and almost all skills deal damage. 
Poor, poor core gurdain and his lack of mobility - gs leap, sw2, med teleport, insta virtue, as well as his support brother with insta shouts.
In principle, it's not surprising that WB has become an omega version of a typical med guardian with insta med and lack of CC skills without damage.
P. S. Lmao. Probably the guardian already needs an energy system called Energy of Sacrifice, to personify his sanctity and support. 
Every time the guardian clicks on a skill loses some of his health, if the skill is an insta, he loses double his health and his necromancer brother will share the vampire aura with him.

 

Opportunities.

Warrior must be able to punish mobility, for this you need a shake-up for the whole condi system. As I already wrote here for bleeding we need the old torment effect, a competent weave in cripple plus new blood fields with bleeding explosion and blood aura, which will probably impose cripple effect or something more "virtuoso" or damage reduction, maybe a barrier - a lot of possibilities for a bloody aura. 
The next step is to remove the poison damage effect and change it to -50% healing reduction (for counter game with resistance and for pressure on sustain), after that we need to return the poison damage through bleeding for classes and specks relying on poison + bleed (the old torment effect and playing with numbers will help this). Maybe even increase bleed damage after using teleporters, which will be scaled from the distance traveled, because teleporters are insta spam movement speeds after all. Most importantly, it is necessary to make sure that this first of all helps the warrior. 
Warrior shouldn't punish necro and condi game as a whole, as it was invented here, warrior should punish mobility, so in this scenario even teleporters can be punished by warrior and to a lesser extent by others who rely on this kind of condi.
Also in the past I wrote about adding a Poison aura to poison fields, which would apply a poison effect, for more pressure on sustain and reduce spamming weakness from poison fields, in which at the moment weakness is applied from two finishers - blast and leap(although this is just a suggestion, but a big aura untamed looks nifty)
A game where only the animations and meta numbers change, but not the nature of the opportunities themselves.

P. S.  where are the new void fields with unimaginable effect together with void infusion?😄

сombo is an anti-ego effect to some extent.

Edit: The warrior himself can become a victim of such bleeding and mobility spam, it is probably worth adding a certain small reduction in damage from bleeding to the traits, for example, ignore pain.

Edited May 22, 2022 by DomHemingway.8436

[Crab Fear.8623]

The reality is, that even with these nerfs, the other specs are right there waiting to be next.

Get your pitchforks ready bois

Edited May 22, 2022 by Crab Fear.8623

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

The reality is, that even with these nerfs, the other specs are right there waiting to be next.

Get your pitchforks ready bois

Right now I don't even care how "strong" things are. I am very concerned with the mobility creep.

The game's current meta in high tier is just teleport burst zerging. All tactics & strategies are simply nullified in the face of knowing the right moment to teleport burst in. It's removing classic job roles and devolving the game into teleport bursting only. Not only is side noder player disappearing but the idea of brawling in general is vanishing. It's just all knowing when to teleport burst.

Classic Conquest play is vanishing. It's more like Death Match now than Conquest. It's actually currently more advantageous to zerg around and win team fights first, and then snowball nodes later. The mobility is so high that getting to nodes after winning the zerg fight is easy. There really isn't a reason for players to divide through the map anymore. This is really narrowing the play options in the game mode.

Keep in mind this is all due to mobility creep, not imbalance of character power vs power.

[MedievalThings.5417]

On 5/6/2022 at 1:14 AM, Bazsi.2734 said:

Isn't the point of willbender that you cannot get away from it? Like I know it's dumb, and it shouldn't be a thing, but that's the point of e-spec. It's guardian, but it zoom-zooms like thief.

Nothing should have thief mobility, probably not even thief.  On a heavy class, it's def. broken.