Blindly following content creators and guides...

[Silent.6137]

This is pertinent to all contents, not just instanced group contents. Content creators rushed to make videos and other guides to gain followers. Often their initial guides are less than optimal and full of flaws. And they never update them. Their followers learned these and teach others, and it just trickle down from there. Eventually, they become normal mode of play.

Maybe there’s something I’m missing, and there’s a very good reason for doing things these ways for some of them. But for several, it just left me scratching my head because many have no clue that there may be better ways of doing them.

 

To illustrate, I’m going to use a few things I observe in Fractals.

1. Toxic Sickness – Why is everyone running all over? The vomit are always discharged outwards. Stacking together will prevent getting hit by them. You run away to discharge it away from team mates and get turned around. Guess where it’ll land quite often?

2. Uncategorized – Most groups will just run past harpies (soon as you go into the instance) instead of killing them all. Seems most people do not realize that only by killing them all, you can /gg to respawn at the top. Seen so many who gets to the top, will just go to safe zones while some of their team mates fall or die. And if group gets wiped by the champions, reseting will means starting at the bottom again.

3. Running past mobs – Particularly at Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. How much time do you actually save by skipping them? If 1 or more of your team mates die, it’ll mean a lot more time wasted from less fire power until you can all get out of combat. Besides, did anyone notice the loots from trash mobs are pretty decent for the few minutes you spent to kill them all?

4. Running past mobs Part II – At Aetherblades, many will just ignore the Extinguishers. It’s great when everyone managed to get past them. But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps. When that happens, you’ll lose lots of time from being downed by these mobs. Ok, so you ignore those who died and go to the next stage. However, you’re not at full complement and will take lots longer to kill the mobs again.

5. Twilight Oasis + Social Awkwardness – Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder. Using the shortcuts, with this instability, you’re forced to wait your turn. Often there’s some who’ll have lots of problems navigating the jump. You’ll save a lot more time if the entire group uses the normal route in this case. Also, if the entire group is wiped at the 3rd Sandbinder, many will have no clue how to get back there because they only know the shortcut.

6. Twilight Oasis & 1st Amala – Why do so many hide behind the pillar on the left side? Which great strategist started this and everyone seems to imitate? Doesn’t it make more sense to hide behind the pillar on the right since it’s closer to where you need to jump up?

7. Sunqua – During the water phase, when the Spellcaster is casting radial AoEs. Why are so many always dancing close to the middle and risk getting pulled in. There are lots more room to manoeuvre closer to the walls. And if anyone is downed, you’ll have time to rez them.

8. Siren's Reef - Not waiting for team mates to get in place  to retrieve 2nd treasure before depositing  1st treasure on the ship.

Granted, many of the strategies are very optional depending on the group. What I'm getting at is that many only know one way of doing some of the contents, and they're often less than optimal. And where did they learned all these? Mainly from people who learned them from content creators, and treated those steps as gospel.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Silent.6137

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

9 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

This is pertinent to all contents, not just instanced group contents. Content creators rushed to make videos and other guides to gain followers. Often their initial guides are less than optimal and full of flaws. And they never update them. Their followers learned these and teach others, and it just trickle down from there. Eventually, they become normal mode of play.

Maybe there’s something I’m missing, and there’s a very good reason for doing things these ways for some of them. But for several, it just left me scratching my head because many have no clue that there may be better ways of doing them.

 

To illustrate, I’m going to use a few things I observe in Fractals.

1. Toxic Sickness – Why is everyone running all over? The vomit are always discharged outwards. Stacking together will prevent getting hit by them. You run away to discharge it away from team mates and get turned around. Guess where it’ll land quite often?

2. Uncategorized – Most groups will just run past harpies instead of killing them all. Seems most people do not realize that only by killing them all, you can /gg to respawn at the top. Seen so many who gets to the top, will just go to safe zones while some of their team mates fall or die. And if group gets wiped by the champions, reseting will means starting at the bottom again.

3. Running past mobs – Particularly at Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. How much time do you actually save by skipping them? If 1 or more of your team mates die, it’ll mean a lot more time wasted from less fire power until you can all get out of combat. Besides, did anyone notice the loots from trash mobs are pretty decent for the few minutes you spent to kill them all?

4. Running past mobs Part II – At Aetherblades, many will just ignore the Extinguishers. It’s great when everyone managed to get past them. But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps. When that happens, you’ll lose lots of time from being downed by these mobs. Ok, so you ignore those who died and go to the next stage. However, you’re not at full complement and will take lots longer to kill the mobs again.

5. Twilight Oasis + Social Awkwardness – Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder. Using the shortcuts, with this instability, you’re forced to wait your turn. Often there’s some who’ll have lots of problems navigating the jump. You’ll save a lot more time if the entire group uses the normal route in this case. Also, if the entire group is wiped at the 3rd Sandbinder, many will have no clue how to get back there because they only know the shortcut.

6. Twilight Oasis & 1st Amala – Why do so many hide behind the pillar on the left side? Which great strategist started this and everyone seems to imitate? Doesn’t it make more sense to hide behind the pillar on the right since it’s closer to where you need to jump up?

7. Sunqua – During the water phase, when the Spellcaster is casting radial AoEs. Why are so many always dancing close to the middle and risk getting pulled in. There are lots more room to manoeuvre closer to the walls. And if anyone is downed, you’ll have time to rez them.

8. Siren's Reef - Not waiting for team mates to get in place  to retrieve 2nd treasure before depositing  1st treasure on the ship.

Granted, many of the strategies are very optional depending on the group. What I'm getting at is that many only know one way of doing some of the contents, and they're often less than optimal. And where did they learned all these? Mainly from people who learned them from content creators, and treated those steps as gospel.

I dont know if it changed but during uncategorised fractal, only one player needed to get last harpies to final boss. Rest could respawn there after gg

[Hotride.2187]

20 minutes ago, ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

I dont know if it changed but during uncategorised fractal, only one player needed to get last harpies to final boss. Rest could respawn there after gg

I think they mean first harpies part.

Anyway, all mentioned points are nitpicking. It barely matters if you do the fast strategies well, or if you lose some time cause you messed them up.

For sunqua, I assume stack in middle due to doing it in CM.

[Silent.6137]

4 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I think they mean first harpies part.

Anyway, all mentioned points are nitpicking. It barely matters if you do the fast strategies well, or if you lose some time cause you messed them up.

For sunqua, I assume stack in middle due to doing it in CM.

You obviously do not understand what I'm trying to get at. As i said, those are all just illustrations and optionals. Not nit-picking, as you put it. It's that many have absolutely no clue there are other ways of doing them. For example, Twilight Oasis, how many actually know the normal route. I've seen many who have no idea how to get back if they reset because they followed some online guides.

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Silent.6137 said:

This is pertinent to all contents, not just instanced group contents. Content creators rushed to make videos and other guides to gain followers. Often their initial guides are less than optimal and full of flaws. And they never update them. Their followers learned these and teach others, and it just trickle down from there. Eventually, they become normal mode of play.

Maybe there’s something I’m missing, and there’s a very good reason for doing things these ways for some of them. But for several, it just left me scratching my head because many have no clue that there may be better ways of doing them.

 

To illustrate, I’m going to use a few things I observe in Fractals.

1. Toxic Sickness – Why is everyone running all over? The vomit are always discharged outwards. Stacking together will prevent getting hit by them. You run away to discharge it away from team mates and get turned around. Guess where it’ll land quite often?

2. Uncategorized – Most groups will just run past harpies instead of killing them all. Seems most people do not realize that only by killing them all, you can /gg to respawn at the top. Seen so many who gets to the top, will just go to safe zones while some of their team mates fall or die. And if group gets wiped by the champions, reseting will means starting at the bottom again.

3. Running past mobs – Particularly at Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. How much time do you actually save by skipping them? If 1 or more of your team mates die, it’ll mean a lot more time wasted from less fire power until you can all get out of combat. Besides, did anyone notice the loots from trash mobs are pretty decent for the few minutes you spent to kill them all?

4. Running past mobs Part II – At Aetherblades, many will just ignore the Extinguishers. It’s great when everyone managed to get past them. But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps. When that happens, you’ll lose lots of time from being downed by these mobs. Ok, so you ignore those who died and go to the next stage. However, you’re not at full complement and will take lots longer to kill the mobs again.

5. Twilight Oasis + Social Awkwardness – Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder. Using the shortcuts, with this instability, you’re forced to wait your turn. Often there’s some who’ll have lots of problems navigating the jump. You’ll save a lot more time if the entire group uses the normal route in this case. Also, if the entire group is wiped at the 3rd Sandbinder, many will have no clue how to get back there because they only know the shortcut.

6. Twilight Oasis & 1st Amala – Why do so many hide behind the pillar on the left side? Which great strategist started this and everyone seems to imitate? Doesn’t it make more sense to hide behind the pillar on the right since it’s closer to where you need to jump up?

7. Sunqua – During the water phase, when the Spellcaster is casting radial AoEs. Why are so many always dancing close to the middle and risk getting pulled in. There are lots more room to manoeuvre closer to the walls. And if anyone is downed, you’ll have time to rez them.

8. Siren's Reef - Not waiting for team mates to get in place  to retrieve 2nd treasure before depositing  1st treasure on the ship.

Granted, many of the strategies are very optional depending on the group. What I'm getting at is that many only know one way of doing some of the contents, and they're often less than optimal. And where did they learned all these? Mainly from people who learned them from content creators, and treated those steps as gospel.

One problem is that the things you see are created by some people with an agenda to push  on unknowing players to play a specific, and optimal way. Examples ... 

1. Players that play optimally almost never die, so things like killing the trash mobs are irrelevant in their advice to people

2. Players that play optimally almost always play meta builds and they pretend like every player is capable of executing meta builds optimally. Again ... such ideas are irrelevant as advice to the average player. 

You can see the creators who are ACTUALLY not tone deaf to the average players abilities, because they are making videos about making and playing low intensity builds or specific things like Plaguedoctor Rezz/Heal Scourge to carry. Just recommend those content creators instead of the meta pushing ones. If the creators with a meta agenda aren't getting hits, they will stop creating their content. 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Obtena.7952

[Cyninja.2954]

Simply put: many players imitate strategies from more experienced players (or in general other players unless they know better). Unfortunately many times this can result in more time lost than saved. Some players reflect on the fact that they are not as experienced or skilled and will then forgo certain shortcuts. Weaker players might not learn from past experiences.

 

Content creators just show possibilities. Making use of them or not is up to each individual to decide. In short: using other players guides/recommendations does not absolve from using ones own brain. Yet not thinking is so much easier for many players.

 

You are incorrect on 1 thing though: this is not a content creator issue. This is a player teaching players issue. Most players pick up on things from other players, good and bad. Has nothing to do with content creators or what they show, even if some content creators might make something popular.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Vidit.7108]

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Toxic Sickness – Why is everyone running all over

If you had a static group you could trust everyone to stack perfectly. In fractal PUG's the #1 rule is don't trust the other players to do the mechanics perfectly. It's safer than having one person nearly full die to being hit by all 4 vomits. 

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Uncategorized – Most groups will just run past harpies (soon as you go into the instance) instead of killing them all

Having to stop and kill the harpies on T4 is harder than running past all of them. If you stop that means having need of repeated uses of stability and reflects not all of which are going to come off cooldown on your way up. Often someone can portal the rest of the group if they make it. This has very little to do with guides telling players what to do, it was much more common in older fractal metas to have a chronomancer so we took portaling for granted. Now running past with a "Stand Your Ground" or a ventauri bubble is a common technique it saves time at the start and other players really hate fighting the harpies. I'm old enough to remember that in T4 players used to drop from the group if someone didn't make it past the harpies at the start.

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

How much time do you actually save by skipping them?

The old version of Molten Boss didn't have them, in tiers 1-3 they do so little damage it's not really worth worrying about them. The time save in T4 can be pretty significant since you only need to kill the marked champ at the end to open the bridge. Once the bridge is open everyone can GG so losing one person usually isn't the end of the world. 

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps

This is an experience thing. There are a lot of movement tricks that make clearing the aetherblade traps very simple. One example for instance, if your boon support can give itself resistance and swiftness it can run to all of the switches on their own, really simple trick in the first three tiers and slightly harder in t4. Same works in cliffside. So there is not much reason to linger and fight the extinguishers.

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder

I think you might not have done this fractal in a long time, they took out the 2nd Sandbinder so the only reason you would know about the other path is if you're an old player or did an achievement run. 3rd Sandbinder is now the 2nd Sandbinder.

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Why do so many hide behind the pillar on the left side?

I'm pretty sure it's the pillar closest to the door where you enter. It's kind of a "why does everyone turn around after entering an elevator and not before leaving an elevator" type observations with probably no real answer. It's the pillar that is in your line of sight first after turning the corner for sure. 

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Sunqua – During the water phase, when the Spellcaster is casting radial AoEs. Why are so many always dancing close to the middle and risk getting pulled in.

The people that do that either don't know they can die, or are risking for dps. There are also a few skills that don't get reflected and some overconfident dps think they can kill the boss before they die. Sometimes they're right, sometimes the healer outheals the damage.

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Siren's Reef - Not waiting for team mates to get in place  to retrieve 2nd treasure before depositing  1st treasure on the ship.

Everybody hates that fractal and no one is patient anymore by that point. 

2 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

What I'm getting at is that many only know one way of doing some of the contents, and they're often less than optimal. And where did they learned all these? Mainly from people who learned them from content creators, and treated those steps as gospel.

Most of what you listed I can tell you players were already doing before someone made a video guide about it. Most content creators didn't reinvent the wheel they just copied what they saw other players already doing. European players do a few things different from NA players too. Big guilds and high end guilds originate a lot of the techniques that get discovered later after the fractal is released. Especially new skips.

[Silent.6137]

1 hour ago, Cyninja.2954 said:

You are incorrect on 1 thing though: this is not a content creator issue. This is a player teaching players issue. Most players pick up on things from other players, good and bad. Has nothing to do with content creators or what they show, even if some content creators might make something popular.

I do agree that it is mostly player teaching player issue. Content creators may not create these tactics but by making them popular, especially for newer players, they are a big part of the equation.

46 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

In fractal PUG's the #1 rule is don't trust the other players to do the mechanics perfectly. It's safer than having one person nearly full die to being hit by all 4 vomits.

I don't disagree but they learn from somewhere to run around.

46 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Having to stop and kill the harpies on T4 is harder than running past all of them.

The point I'm trying to make here is that if the group has a couple full dead at the bottom, or get wiped from the champions, then they'll have to navigate up from the beginning again. Yes, we are all used to skips on practically all fractals now.

46 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Once the bridge is open everyone can GG so losing one person usually isn't the end of the world.

No, it isn't. However, you really do not save that much time by just skipping them. And as i said, the loots are pretty decent.

46 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I think you might not have done this fractal in a long time, they took out the 2nd Sandbinder so the only reason you would know about the other path is if you're an old player or did an achievement run. 3rd Sandbinder is now the 2nd Sandbinder.

I do fractals almost daily. The 1st Sandbinder is close to where you drop down before going to face Amala at the pillars.. 2nd is after the jump from the pillar room. 3rd is after the shortcut. For normal route, you do not jump down to the shortcut but jump across instead. 4th is at final room.

46 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

I'm pretty sure it's the pillar closest to the door where you enter.

Nope. As you enter, they are straight ahead down the stairs; left and right.

46 minutes ago, Vidit.7108 said:

Most of what you listed I can tell you players were already doing before someone made a video guide about it. Most content creators didn't reinvent the wheel they just copied what they saw other players already doing. European players do a few things different from NA players too. Big guilds and high end guilds originate a lot of the techniques that get discovered later after the fractal is released. Especially new skips.

This is not about Fractals per se. The list is just an example. Content creators may not have invented the tactics/strategies but often they rushed out to be the first to post what they've seen. Some are excellent and they do update their contents. However, I've seen many where they don't. And people looking for guides will learn from them, especially if they're popular. And older videos have more views/likes, so many will assume they are the ultimate guides.

Edited May 10, 2022 by Silent.6137

[MagicBot.1570]

Some comments here are actually infuriating....

I happen to make youtube videos of fractals, mostly fast kills and speedruns of t4 fractals these days, but they're not watched by many, and my viewers are mostly people who are dedicated to the type of content I upload (or at least share a common interest  with me in the way we're playing the game)

I always try to make it very clear that the strategies I apply are not meant for unorganized parties and newer players, whenever I get the chance to clarify something to someone who is new or confused by what they're seeing. I don't understand why some people think that this type of youtube content should disappear simply because we do not appeal to the casual or fresher playerbase. There is a TON of content out there for this audience, including guides for everything.

I am more concerned with the low intensity guides that are spawning everywhere these days, rather than fractal content. Some of them are made of clickbaity nonsense and filled with terrible advice, and it's definitely a bigger problem to me because the people who make those builds get a LOT of views

 

Edited May 11, 2022 by MagicBot.1570

[Sarius.9285]

16 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Running past mobs – Particularly at Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. How much time do you actually save by skipping them? If 1 or more of your team mates die, it’ll mean a lot more time wasted from less fire power until you can all get out of combat. Besides, did anyone notice the loots from trash mobs are pretty decent for the few minutes you spent to kill them all?

idk, especially urban can save like 30 seconds or more if you just run through, even 1 person is enough to unlock the next checkpoint

[Hotride.2187]

16 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

You obviously do not understand what I'm trying to get at. As i said, those are all just illustrations and optionals. Not nit-picking, as you put it. It's that many have absolutely no clue there are other ways of doing them. For example, Twilight Oasis, how many actually know the normal route. I've seen many who have no idea how to get back if they reset because they followed some online guides.

I understand what you are saying, its mostly irrelevant whether players try speed starts and fail them, or go for safer options. Personally I prefer to try and fail, since only by trying you'll eventually learn how to do it every time. So I have no problems with players who try and fail.

In some of the mentions I agree, on average its faster to not try the speed strat - if even 1 player failing it is a problem. Especially if the normal route is basically the same. But the goal is not necessarily to make the current run the fastest, its to improve. Running past enemies while doing jumping puzzles is good practice.

As for knowing alternatives / normal routes: I ran t1 until I had 150+ AR, I've seen all sorts of runs. What is done in T4 daily runs is times faster than what clueless players are doing. So... sure, maybe player A has picked some bad habits from watching a guide online. But player A is still way better prepared than player B, who has not even watched a guide.

 

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

14 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

No, it isn't. However, you really do not save that much time by just skipping them. And as i said, the loots are pretty decent.

They drop any loot?

14 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

I do fractals almost daily. The 1st Sandbinder is close to where you drop down before going to face Amala at the pillars.. 2nd is after the jump from the pillar room. 3rd is after the shortcut. For normal route, you do not jump down to the shortcut but jump across instead. 4th is at final room.

They didn't mean the Sandbinders in the whole Fractal, but in the area where you first fight Amala. 

14 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

Nope. As you enter, they are straight ahead down the stairs; left and right.

Since you are coming from the right the first pillar you see is the one on the left.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

19 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

You obviously do not understand what I'm trying to get at. As i said, those are all just illustrations and optionals. Not nit-picking, as you put it. It's that many have absolutely no clue there are other ways of doing them. For example, Twilight Oasis, how many actually know the normal route. I've seen many who have no idea how to get back if they reset because they followed some online guides.

The strategies are not wrong. It is better to skip mechanics when you can.

If players dont know something it is not guides fault but theirs

Edited May 11, 2022 by ButcherofMalakir.4067

[Silent.6137]

I posted this topic and used fractals merely as examples. This is for all contents: strikes, openworld meta, raids, etc. Many are using the same tactics and when questioned, the answers are "because everyone's doing it that way" or "Idk".

8 hours ago, MagicBot.1570 said:

Some comments here are actually infuriating....

I happen to make youtube videos of fractals....I don't understand why some people think that this type of youtube content should disappear simply because we do not appeal to the casual or fresher playerbase.

No one here is saying that here. I find them extremely useful at times. If your guide is good, then it's good. What I'm asking is why so many are using the same tactics without understanding why.

1 hour ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

They drop any loot?

They didn't mean the Sandbinders in the whole Fractal, but in the area where you first fight Amala. 

Since you are coming from the right the first pillar you see is the one on the left.

Try killing them all on your next run and see for yourself. As, for the Sandbinders, please re-read the initial post and response.

As for the pillars, why do people hide behind them? Because they learn from someone. And why do they go to the left although it's farther away (crossing the stairs instead of straight down and also farther away from where you have to jump up)? Even if that's the one they see first, there's more than 2 pillars. They choose the left because they see others doing it. So, they'll keep going there the next time.

[Cyninja.2954]

27 minutes ago, Silent.6137 said:

As for the pillars, why do people hide behind them? Because they learn from someone.

Actually, it's because experienced players understand how pathing in this game works and how to abuse/make use of it. Hiding leads to the boss coming to the group, which gives the possibility to better time the engage, boon up and precast. The fact that the boss and the minor enemies all group up is another added benefit.

 

Now if players just mirror others without ever questioning why things are done, you need to take that up with individual players. The most common answer would be:"I don't care enough" which is in line with a large majority of players not caring enough to understand the most fundamental things about this game combat.

 

Quote

And why do they go to the left although it's farther away (crossing the stairs instead of straight down and also farther away from where you have to jump up)? Even if that's the one they see first, there's more than 2 pillars. They choose the left because they see others doing it. So, they'll keep going there the next time.

 

Has nothing to do with the pilar or it's position. It has to do with the enemies right before, which were likely skipped. In order to give them least line of sight, you cross left forcing most of them to path towards you instead of giving them free cast on players running past.

Yes, most players will mirror other behavior and if it works, they will continue to mirror it. If it doesn't, they are forced with either coming up with their own approach, which is a big no no for many, or find another player to copy off of leading this argument back to square 1.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Cyninja.2954

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

20 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

 

 

1. Running past mobs Part II – At Aetherblades, many will just ignore the Extinguishers. It’s great when everyone managed to get past them. But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps. When that happens, you’ll lose lots of time from being downed by these mobs. Ok, so you ignore those who died and go to the next stage. However, you’re not at full complement and will take lots longer to kill the mobs again.

2. Twilight Oasis + Social Awkwardness – Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder. Using the shortcuts, with this instability, you’re forced to wait your turn. Often there’s some who’ll have lots of problems navigating the jump. You’ll save a lot more time if the entire group uses the normal route in this case. Also, if the entire group is wiped at the 3rd Sandbinder, many will have no clue how to get back there because they only know the shortcut.

1 - Agree with the Extinguishers, not only that, but if you leave them alive, they will demolish Kiel, if you go down in the trap section, she can revive you from downed state, no Kiel, no free revives. It's the only "skip" that doesn't make much sense to me.

2 - It's still faster this way, if you have/are a Mesmer you can just portal the person that is struggling to the top, or can use those portal bundles you can buy in the open world.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Brandon Uzumaki.1524

[ASP.8093]

5 hours ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

They drop any loot?

The Kitty Fractal harpies do drop vials of blood.

[IAmNotMatthew.1058]

20 minutes ago, ASP.8093 said:

The Kitty Fractal harpies do drop vials of blood.

Oh, my bad, I thought you meant the mobs in the Molten Boss Fractal. 
Regarding those Harpies, I rarely see groups run past the Harpies at the start of Uncat, even on lower tiers.

[Silent.6137]

36 minutes ago, IAmNotMatthew.1058 said:

Oh, my bad, I thought you meant the mobs in the Molten Boss Fractal. 
Regarding those Harpies, I rarely see groups run past the Harpies at the start of Uncat, even on lower tiers.

All trash mobs drop decent loots in fractals. And I was specifically referring to Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. A group of 5 will decimate all of them fairly fast. However, it pales when compared to fractal encryptions, etc., but people will still spend more time in the openworld farming trash mobs that give even less valuable loots.

You see lots of groups running past especially at T4. Not so much on lower tiers because it's still baby-steps for many doing those.

Edited May 11, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Asum.4960]

 

Quote

Toxic Sickness – Why is everyone running all over? The vomit are always discharged outwards. Stacking together will prevent getting hit by them. You run away to discharge it away from team mates and get turned around. Guess where it’ll land quite often?

Running all over the place upon getting a mechanic isn't learned, but quite the opposite - it's a panic response. Pug's especially never stack properly, and as soon as one person starts to panic and run, pointing pukes on the group, everybody goes into headless chicken mode. 

Would it be easier if everybody stacked perfectly, or everybody tapped their keyboard once to look in a different direction for a second and then kept still? Sure, but good luck with executing that. 

 

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Uncategorized – Most groups will just run past harpies (soon as you go into the instance) instead of killing them all. Seems most people do not realize that only by killing them all, you can /gg to respawn at the top. Seen so many who gets to the top, will just go to safe zones while some of their team mates fall or die. And if group gets wiped by the champions, reseting will means starting at the bottom again.

This one I actually agree with. The mid jump cripples reducing travel distance are exceedingly annoying, they can be bursted in seconds, and they can drop T6 Blood - as well as opening up a quick checkpoint. A lot of times it's much faster and profitable to just kill them, unless everybody knows their jumps, travels as a stack and Stability, Stealth or mobile projectile negation is available.

 

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Running past mobs – Particularly at Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. How much time do you actually save by skipping them? If 1 or more of your team mates die, it’ll mean a lot more time wasted from less fire power until you can all get out of combat. Besides, did anyone notice the loots from trash mobs are pretty decent for the few minutes you spent to kill them all?

Here you actually save up a lot of time. Rather than a handful of Harpies, the difference here is bursting 2 mobs/1 door when skipping vs. trudging through 20-50. Plus there are teleport skips available especially for Molten Boss that many more proficient players are used to, skipping vast amounts of the Fractal by teleporting directly through the floor to the Bridge.

 

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Running past mobs Part II – At Aetherblades, many will just ignore the Extinguishers. It’s great when everyone managed to get past them. But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps. When that happens, you’ll lose lots of time from being downed by these mobs. Ok, so you ignore those who died and go to the next stage. However, you’re not at full complement and will take lots longer to kill the mobs again.

Similarly here, I think many are just used to teleport skips at higher tiers, skipping that part of the Fractal and opening up a checkpoint for GG, in which skipping shaves off minutes. 

 

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1. Twilight Oasis + Social Awkwardness – Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder. Using the shortcuts, with this instability, you’re forced to wait your turn. Often there’s some who’ll have lots of problems navigating the jump. You’ll save a lot more time if the entire group uses the normal route in this case. Also, if the entire group is wiped at the 3rd Sandbinder, many will have no clue how to get back there because they only know the shortcut.

2. Twilight Oasis & 1st Amala – Why do so many hide behind the pillar on the left side? Which great strategist started this and everyone seems to imitate? Doesn’t it make more sense to hide behind the pillar on the right since it’s closer to where you need to jump up?

I think it's fair to assume in T4 at least that players know the Fractal layout and where to go. If not, the Fractal can fairly comfortably be practiced solo in T1, especially the pre-boss pathing. Also as other's mentioned, there aren't 3 Sandbinders anymore since years, one was removed to shorten the Fractal, rendering the original intended route fairly pointless.

 

As for the Pillars, first of all, you can actually also jump the wall on the left side to the "second" Sandbinder first - secondly, most humans are right handed and therefor gravitate toward engaging enemies towards the left side, forcing them to approach on the right with which they are psychologically more comfortable. It's also better pathing wise in my experience, leading to the archers walking up and around the pillar more cleanly to be cleaved. 

 

__

In any case, I don't really see much point in blaming content creators here, usually it's just emergent strategies. Most players just learn what to do by playing with other players and copying their strategies, so likely did any content creators. I doubt any of them purposefully propagate bad strategies - and even if any of them are doing so (intentionally or unintentionally), it's each individual players responsibility to check themselves if what they are doing makes sense. 

 

Imo a much better example of this are many players still doing Chronomancer GG's to reset Continuum Split before taking Mistlocks for prebuffing (such as after Siax CM), when Boon Chrono hasn't been in the meta for Fractals for years at this point. 

It's not that a content creator told them to, it's what they learned years ago in a different circumstance, and they never stopped since to ask themselves if what they are doing actually makes sense in the given situation, or if in fact it just costs time.

 

 

 

 

 

[Fuchslein.8639]

On 5/10/2022 at 9:38 PM, Silent.6137 said:

This is pertinent to all contents, not just instanced group contents. Content creators rushed to make videos and other guides to gain followers. Often their initial guides are less than optimal and full of flaws. And they never update them. Their followers learned these and teach others, and it just trickle down from there. Eventually, they become normal mode of play.

Maybe there’s something I’m missing, and there’s a very good reason for doing things these ways for some of them. But for several, it just left me scratching my head because many have no clue that there may be better ways of doing them.

 

To illustrate, I’m going to use a few things I observe in Fractals.

1. Toxic Sickness – Why is everyone running all over? The vomit are always discharged outwards. Stacking together will prevent getting hit by them. You run away to discharge it away from team mates and get turned around. Guess where it’ll land quite often?

2. Uncategorized – Most groups will just run past harpies (soon as you go into the instance) instead of killing them all. Seems most people do not realize that only by killing them all, you can /gg to respawn at the top. Seen so many who gets to the top, will just go to safe zones while some of their team mates fall or die. And if group gets wiped by the champions, reseting will means starting at the bottom again.

3. Running past mobs – Particularly at Molten Boss and Urban Battleground. How much time do you actually save by skipping them? If 1 or more of your team mates die, it’ll mean a lot more time wasted from less fire power until you can all get out of combat. Besides, did anyone notice the loots from trash mobs are pretty decent for the few minutes you spent to kill them all?

4. Running past mobs Part II – At Aetherblades, many will just ignore the Extinguishers. It’s great when everyone managed to get past them. But often, groups will have problems de-activating the traps. When that happens, you’ll lose lots of time from being downed by these mobs. Ok, so you ignore those who died and go to the next stage. However, you’re not at full complement and will take lots longer to kill the mobs again.

5. Twilight Oasis + Social Awkwardness – Seems majority have no clue there’s a normal route to get to the 3rd Sandbinder. Using the shortcuts, with this instability, you’re forced to wait your turn. Often there’s some who’ll have lots of problems navigating the jump. You’ll save a lot more time if the entire group uses the normal route in this case. Also, if the entire group is wiped at the 3rd Sandbinder, many will have no clue how to get back there because they only know the shortcut.

6. Twilight Oasis & 1st Amala – Why do so many hide behind the pillar on the left side? Which great strategist started this and everyone seems to imitate? Doesn’t it make more sense to hide behind the pillar on the right since it’s closer to where you need to jump up?

7. Sunqua – During the water phase, when the Spellcaster is casting radial AoEs. Why are so many always dancing close to the middle and risk getting pulled in. There are lots more room to manoeuvre closer to the walls. And if anyone is downed, you’ll have time to rez them.

8. Siren's Reef - Not waiting for team mates to get in place  to retrieve 2nd treasure before depositing  1st treasure on the ship.

Granted, many of the strategies are very optional depending on the group. What I'm getting at is that many only know one way of doing some of the contents, and they're often less than optimal. And where did they learned all these? Mainly from people who learned them from content creators, and treated those steps as gospel.

I don't see where this is a problem with Youtubers.

No one talks about these things in the fractals themself, so how do you know? And trust me, i did ask, i ask a lot of times. I ask why do you do this, pls can you wait there is someone who can't get trough the mobs. I'm the person who goes back for people and then other people rage-quit because they started fight's and wiped ...

E.g. the Toxic Sickness, i didn't know about this until i did CM's with a really good group. The thing is, i didn't know the question, i didn't know that when you stack right no one will get hit by the Vomit. And no one ever did tell me when i did T4.

The rushing and not waiting part also seems more like a community problem in general. I hate this, i hate when people not just kill the harpies and stuff and don't wait for others and then wonder when they wipe. But this is about the People who do this and repeat this. Even when a youtuber did this one time and they thought, oh nice i do this to. After the 2 or 3 time this does not work with most pugs, people should realize that this is eventually not the perfect way.

Giving Content-creators fault for People stupid behavior is in my eyes just not right.

[Silent.6137]

On 5/11/2022 at 3:50 PM, Asum.4960 said:

I think it's fair to assume in T4 at least that players know the Fractal layout and where to go. If not, the Fractal can fairly comfortably be practiced solo in T1, especially the pre-boss pathing. Also as other's mentioned, there aren't 3 Sandbinders anymore since years, one was removed to shorten the Fractal, rendering the original intended route fairly pointless.

I've been in several groups over the years when we /gg, and hardly anyone knows how to get back to that fight. Yes, all routes are very easy to learn in T1 but I doubt many will take the time to do so, unfortunately.

As for the Sandbinders, as I mentioned above, I'm referring to every single ones you encountered. There are 4, altogether, I'm not including the one that's no longer there.

https://ibb.co/sqzcbYg - To those who are confused as to what I meant when I mention 4 Sandbinders. 1 is the initial one after dropping down. 2 & 3 are where you jump up to engage them. The normal route, 2 to 3, might seem a long way to run but it's actually not very. Many have problems getting back to 3 from Reset point.

Note: There used to be 5, the  additional Sandbinder just below the Reset point ( respawn is actually on top of the building just to the NE of the word Reset) on the map, making that one #3 for the run originally and the one after the shortcut #4.

https://ibb.co/z7ZzZB8  - For more clarity: 1 = 1st encounter after 2nd mistlock; 2 = After initial Amala & Palawa Joko to the rescue; 3 = After shortcut jumps; 4 = Final fights

On 5/11/2022 at 3:50 PM, Asum.4960 said:

In any case, I don't really see much point in blaming content creators here, usually it's just emergent strategies. Most players just learn what to do by playing with other players and copying their strategies, so likely did any content creators. I doubt any of them purposefully propagate bad strategies - and even if any of them are doing so (intentionally or unintentionally), it's each individual players responsibility to check themselves if what they are doing makes sense.

 

22 hours ago, Fuchslein.8639 said:

Giving Content-creators fault for People stupid behavior is in my eyes just not right.

Hence the title "Blindly following content creators and guides...". There are tons of awesome content creators and guides. I make use of them often. And similarly, there are tons of less than useful guides. Things change in-game rendering the guides obsolete, or the guides may not be optimal. What I'm trying to suggest is, if you do make use of them, don't treat them as the only way to play the game.

Edited May 12, 2022 by Silent.6137

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

I didnt even know there were content creators that covered fractals and dungeons.

[Asum.4960]

5 hours ago, Silent.6137 said:

I've been in several groups over the years when we /gg, and hardly anyone knows how to get back to that fight. Yes, all routes are very easy to learn in T1 but I doubt many will take the time to do so, unfortunately.

As for the Sandbinders, as I mentioned above, I'm referring to every single ones you encountered. There are 4, altogether, I'm not including the one that's no longer there.

I'm aware, it's just that the discussion was specifically about the "Hunt the Sandbinders shielding the gate, x/2" event including the platforming/pathfinding - anyway, it doesn't matter.  

 

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Hence the title "Blindly following content creators and guides...". There are tons of awesome content creators and guides. I make use of them often. And similarly, there are tons of less than useful guides. Things change in-game rendering the guides obsolete, or the guides may not be optimal. What I'm trying to suggest is, if you do make use of them, don't treat them as the only way to play the game.

This I can agree with.

 

On 5/10/2022 at 9:38 PM, Silent.6137 said:

This is pertinent to all contents, not just instanced group contents. Content creators rushed to make videos and other guides to gain followers. Often their initial guides are less than optimal and full of flaws. And they never update them. Their followers learned these and teach others, and it just trickle down from there. Eventually, they become normal mode of play.

The point is with your tone and content in your opening post, you seem to specifically blame content creators for the unwillingness to learn, improve and updating of strategies of others - and I don't think it's fair to expect them to be perfect and to constantly push updates, as well as to ignore the main component of this which is just emergent community strategies even in absence of any guides, while completely absolving everybody else from personal responsibility. 

 

Imo, if someone for example doesn't know where to go in TO, they are to blame for not taking the time to learn. Not some content creator for not updating one video guide of hundreds they made years ago with things having changed since.

[Silent.6137]

7 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

I'm aware, it's just that the discussion was specifically about the "Hunt the Sandbinders shielding the gate, x/2" event including the platforming/pathfinding - anyway, it doesn't matter. 

No, it wasn't. It was a response to my initial post Vidit made, and which you later did. My answer was to clear up the confusions. I know it's not important but being somewhat anal about certain things...

Edited May 13, 2022 by Silent.6137