What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

9 hours ago, Forgotten Legend.9281 said:

I've played through the story several times, and i don't ever remember this being stated in game... ( i may have missed something) I am genuinely curious if this is Anet canon or your headcanon.

can you give a specific source?  please give as much info as possible. (ie, if it's said in game, in a book, or by a dev, please quote it and give more information, (like a bibliography note after the quote)). 

In core, there's only references to dragon minions growing.

For the explicit mentions with words, on dragon minions and champions, our first example of dragon minions growing with magic is in the story instance Test Subject, where the dragon minion absorbs magic and grows (though this isn't stated in words, the fact it's absorbing magic is, and simultaneously it grows), and gets reaffirmed via the Megadestroyer meta event (fun fact; originally the Megadestroyer was a Destroyer Troll, and grew in size as it spawned; this was changed with Tequatl Rising).

This got rementioned in varying degrees over the years, like the ley-line events, but most recently with Icebrood Saga during Dragonstorm:

Taimi: Did you grow? You look like you grew. All that Jormag energy can't be good for you.

And this same visual got reaffirmed during the final battle of End of Dragons, where the Commander visually grows when Aurene gives them a bunch of magic.

 

With Elder Dragons, it isn't mentioned with words, but it is visually shown. Not just Aurene's growth only accelerating with magic boosts (twice), but also Kralkatorrik and Jormag. Primordus is possible too, but harder to argue. Kralkatorrik shrunk in size between All or Nothing's The Crystal Dragon and in the Dragonfall map (not counting The End which has mechanical limitations), and it is said that Kralkatorrik is weaker (e.g., less magic) due to the battle. Similarly, Jormag gathers magic and power between Jormag Rising and Dragonstorm, and their model grew a bit between those two instances.

Primordus also shrunk from S3 to IBS, which would fall in line with this, but it also shrunk again between Wildfire instance and Dragonstorm instance to become the same size as Jormag, and there's no indication that Primordus became weaker (just Jormag becoming stronger) - though Primordus is confirmed to have visually changed between S3 and IBS, though size isn't specified.

It is possible that Kralkatorrik and Jormag are mere coincidences, but they could have used any model size - so why add a new Jormag model into the gw.dat instead of using the old one or changing the size? Extra work for no benefit.

 

There's also something to be said for the individual sizes of the Elder Dragons. Kralkatorrik and Primordus hoarded the most magic over the centuries, and they're the biggest two Elder Dragons. Conversely, Aurene and Soo-Won hoard the least magic, and they're the smallest two. Zhaitan was similarly drained of magic during the personal story, and it's pretty small among the Elder Dragons. Mordremoth had similarly just woken, so he would be among the smaller size, and Jormag was apparently also very cautious with their consuming of magic.

So their size in comparison to each other falls in line with these visuals as well, despite the alterations made for mechanical engine limitations.

 

TL;DR

Straight up confirmed in visuals and words for dragon minions.

Shown visually for Elder Dragons.

Quote

EDIT: i also vaguely remember someone saying that the longer someone lives, the stronger their magic is, or the more magic they have, or something like that. (but nothing relating physical size to amount of magic) i'm not totally sure, but i think it was said in season 2, in one of the episodes where the PC enters the library in the Durmond Priory, and i think it was said by Ogden Stonehealer.

You're thinking of Ogden talking about Glint, who had spent the past 3,000 slowly gathering magic. He speculates that Glint may have been close to becoming an Elder herself, though we know from later story that this is untrue. But based on Edge of Destiny descriptions, Glint was actually bigger by the time of her death than compared to GW1 - though her corpse in Season 4 is the same size as her GW1 model...

Edited August 22, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Braham and Ryland are the only two instances I can immediately think of where they actually, in-game, mention them having gotten bigger. But neither Braham and Ryland were normal dragon minions, instead being unique champions like the commander.

• Test Subject story instance
• Megadestroyer
• Dragon minions who accumulate Ley-line Imbued stacks
• Braham and Ryland in Dragonstorm
• Commander in The Only One

That's just off the top of my head.

 

Obviously I'm not talking about the mechanical system where higher ranked NPCs are visually larger than lower ranked ones. Do you think I'm that idiotic to be talking about how random norn, humans, sylvari, asura, etc. are larger if they're veteran, elite, champion, legendary ranked (respectively larger in size) but talk about Elder Dragons which are not even given such ranking prefixes because they're mechanically prop models?

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The fact Soo-Won was the last dragon, and also one of the smallest, disproves the notion that they grow bigger simply because of how much magic they have.

Quite the opposite, because Soo-Won had been having herself drained of magic for the past 20 years via the reactor. Constantly drained of magic and the second smallest Elder Dragon? Quite the coincidence.

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Well if we take a look at the Elder Dragons.

1. Soo-Won was the last Elder Dragon we fought, and had magics from all previous elder Dragons. Despite this, she is one of, if not the, smallest of the old Elder Dragons.
2. Primordus was the 4/5 dragon we fought. Despite having gained magic from Kralkatorrik, and Balthazar, since we last saw it in LWS3, its Icebrood Saga model is actually much smaller then the LWS3 model.
3. Jormag was also the 4/5 dragon we fought. Despite gaining magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, the captured Spirits of the Wild(Ox, Eagle, and Wolverine), and likely something from Balthazar as well, the fact that the Fang of the Serpent still fits on its left tusk almost exactly would indicate it hasn't changed size much, if any, since Asgeir's time.
4. Kralkatorrik. Despite gaining/processing the magic gained from Balthazar at the end of PoF, Kralkatorrik's model actually shrinks in LWS4 compared to the giant head we saw at the end of PoF.
5. Mordremoth was the 2nd dragon we fought, and really only had magic from Zhaitan, and the initial burst of ley line energy that woke it up. Mordremoths whole body, the giant mass of vine tentacles that go deep into the earth, not just the head/neck section we fight, gives it the largest overall mass of the Elder Dragons. This despite it being one of the weakest when we fight it.

You're conveniently glossing over several facts...

1. See above.
2. Primordus was drained of magic by Balthazar at the end of Season 3, which would actually explain his shrinking.
3. Jormag was denoted by the devs as being very cautious of new magic, and Taimi states in Season 3 that Jormag had less magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth - which was why we could only find one altered dragon minion - and was similarly drained of magic by Balthazar/Taimi's Machine. Conversely, when Jormag became desperate and began hoarding magic without caution, between Jormag Rising and Dragonrise, they grew in size.
4. The giant head we see in PoF and A Star to Guide Us is Kralkatorrik in his storm form, he's not fully solid as can be seen with the model being very Shatterer-like - very hollow. But the model in The Crystal Dragon and the model(s technically) in Dragonfall show shrinking, alongside magic loss from the fight and recovering.
5. "Mordremoth's whole body" is just the Mouth of Mordremoth, not the vines which Taimi confirms are a combination Mordremoth's corruption and Mordremoth's minions in Season 2. The whole "Mordremoth is the jungle" is a misnomer and it was confirmed by devs that Mordremoth does body hopping with his corruption, like he did to Trahearne.

While there are some obvious distinction issues, like Kralkatorrik's model during The End, the general rule of thumb does seem to be "dragon has more magic == dragon body is larger". Be it model supporting lore (e.g., Aurene) or lore supporting model restrictions (e.g., Zhaitan).

Edited August 22, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[zeyeti.8347]

8 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

If you want to get into the technical. A fang, by definition, is just a long, sharp, tooth. A tusk is a long, sharp, tooth.

Well if you look at jormag tusk they are long indeed but not that large and both dont ressemble the slightiest . But ty for the comparison english isn't my first langage and i didnt knew that a tusk was the same thing like an elephant had , a tusk was for me more like a scale (dont know where i got that idea) .

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by zeyeti.8347

[Fipmip.7219]

I think the inconsistency around deciding who the main characters are has been anets biggest mistake so far.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The nightmare court aren't a monolith, and the whole thing about slaughtering krait children was more of removing a threat then a total hatred of krait as a people by the secondborn in question.

The two were intertwined - Cadeyrne viewed them as a threat because he didn't believe krait could not grow up to be a threat, and the justification he gave for wanting to exterminate them would apply to all krait rather than regarding this particular clutch as being a threat in particular. It just happened to be the one in front of him.

The NC aren't monolithic, but IIRC, at the time it did come across as if the alliances represented the entire groups in question (apart from rebels in the case of the dredge, naturally). The "they were only fringe groups, and they're not popular with the core group" explanation came later, in response to some of the WTF responses.

On the other side of the equation, the krait were stated to believe that they were invincible. Granted, that could be unreliable narrator, but people who believe they're invincible probably wouldn't be forming an alliance with someone they hold in contempt for the sake of a short-term gain. That's the sort of thing people do when they believe they need the alliance, however distasteful, in order to be able to deal with someone else.

There are various explanations that can be composed - there's a reason I listed it as an honourable mention, while the calendar thing was a "this may be small, but it's just so ridiculous and unbelievable that it tops everything else, especially since the Mouvelian calendar was explicitly based on seasons rather than months". At the time, though, it was a culmination of a series of wallbangers. The calendar thing. The tendency in Season 1 in general for basically every problem to be solved by some sort of asura magitech gadget, even if it was something related to another race's lore and you'd expect members of that race to be the experts. Scarlet was feeling like a real Villain Sue at the time: a technomagical prodigy that outstripped the smartest asura; a master manipulator that had formed three separate alliances (the first two were fine, but the Toxic Alliance was enough of a WTF that you'd expect it to require a top-notch negotiator) while also trying to pull Harley Quinn lunatic vibes that you'd think would make diplomatic finesse difficult; and numerous Idiot Balls and coincidences in her favour (watchknights having a backdoor that she just happened to be able to use, finding prophet shards that the Krait hadn't been able to find in centuries of searching, having a technomagical hideout right beneath the Durmand Priory which nobody noticed). And probably more that I've forgotten.

As sad as it might be, they've genuinely improved. The Jormag-Primordus fight? Yeah, the setup being truncated meant that you needed to be paying really close attention to what Jormag was saying to figure out what was going on in Jormag's head, but when you do, Jormag's decision to risk a direct confrontation made sense. Jormag was being driven insane by their connection to Primordus's thoughts, and they'd reached a point where they were willing to do anything to make it stop. They'd rather that 'anything' meant that somebody else killed Primordus for them, or that they grew powerful enough to win the fight, but at the end of the line, Jormag viewed murder-suicide as a better option than allowing Primordus to grow more powerful than they were.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Quite the opposite, because Soo-Won had been having herself drained of magic for the past 20 years via the reactor. Constantly drained of magic and the second smallest Elder Dragon? Quite the coincidence.

And yet, at the end of EoD, Soo-Won clearly had more magic in her then any of the other Elder Dragons we've fought, and was still the same size as she was in the reactor despite it.

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You're conveniently glossing over several facts...

Says the man who conveniently ignores facts while claim others ignore facts

1. Primordus got drained by Balthazar at the end of LWS3 yes. But then Balthazar's magic got taken by Kralkatorrik when he died, and when Kralatorrik died a large part of its magic went back to the other elder Dragons. So a good chunk of the magic Primordus lost came back full circle by the time we face him in Dragonstorm. This on top of Primordus getting more powerful over the course of several months, during the events of Champions, due to his minions burning everything, creating an looping cycle of gaining more power.
2. Likewise, while Jormag got drained by Balthazar at the end of LWS3, a chunk of its magic, along with Balthazar's, and Kralkatorrik's, would have been restored to it when Kralkatorrik died. This on top of absorbing magic from the corrupted Spirits of the Wild, the magic its minions were normally giving it, and all the power it was gaining via its multi-month freezing of people in ice as a means to build power like Primordus had. And when we face it in Dragonstorm its the same size as it was back in Jormag Rising, indicating no change in size between those two points despite gaining more magic. The Fang of Jormag still fits on Jormag's Dragonstorm model.
3. Well no. Kralkatorrik's body wasn't formed at the end of PoF, but his head clearly was. Yes his body was much larger then it normally would be because he had spread it out in the storm, but nothing indicates the part of his body that was formed, aka the head, would be  any different in size. And Kralk's LWS4 model changing between releases was admitted to the devs to be the result of gameplay, and needing different sized models for different encounters due to the game engine, not any in-universe lore reason.
4. I never said Mordremoth was "the whole jungle" obviously he isn't all the normal plants, trees, and other things that make up 95% of the jungle.

Since neither Soo-Won, or Jormag, increased in size after getting more magic, the whole idea of magic = larger is pretty much bunk.

9 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

B: Appearance and size are linked. It's actually explicitly mentioned how Drakker has undergone extensive physical changes due to different magics. Likewise, we've seen Primordus go through changes.

Drakkar's appearance changed because of Jormag manipulating it with magic. Appearance =/= size.

9 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Primordus never got magic from Balthazar. Infact, the battle with Balthazar in the volcano was him actively siphoning magic FROM the two elder dragons in a weaponized manner.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wildfire_(story)

Quote

Snow Leopard: Nice way to sharpen your claws.

Braham Eirsson: Has Primordus always been this ugly?

Wolf: Yes and no. Now, the infection of magic from dead gods and dragons is etched across his face.

Bear: Gird yourselves.

When an Elder Dragon dies the magics its taken into it get sent to all the other Elder Dragons.

Kralkatorrik took Balthazar's magic, and then later died. Meaning at least some small part of both its and Balthazar's magics went to Jormag, and Primordus. This is the same thing that happened when Zhaitan and Mordremoth died, with their magics going to the other Elder Dragons, and what happened to Primordus and Jormag's energy when they died, with most of their power going to Soo-Won.

This was the in-universe justification as to why Primordus looks different in Icebrood Saga compared to LWS3. The other magics had warped it appearance. His IBS model has a more hammerhead appearance to it, an obvious influence from Kralkatorrik's death. And the Spirits of the Wild specifically call out the magic of "dead gods"(Balthazar) infecting Primordus.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

As sad as it might be, they've genuinely improved. The Jormag-Primordus fight? Yeah, the setup being truncated meant that you needed to be paying really close attention to what Jormag was saying to figure out what was going on in Jormag's head, but when you do, Jormag's decision to risk a direct confrontation made sense. Jormag was being driven insane by their connection to Primordus's thoughts, and they'd reached a point where they were willing to do anything to make it stop. They'd rather that 'anything' meant that somebody else killed Primordus for them, or that they grew powerful enough to win the fight, but at the end of the line, Jormag viewed murder-suicide as a better option than allowing Primordus to grow more powerful than they were.

Also, Jormag only avoided confrontation with Primordus in the past because both were fairly equal in terms of power level, and a match up between them as equals would lead to Jormag's death. Everything Jormag had done in Icebrood Saga was about tipping the playing field in its favor

1. Getting Bangar to give Jormag a huge army in the Frost Legion
2. Sucking down the corrupted Spirits of the Wild, and trying to corrupt the "major" Spirits of the Wild
3. Taking a unique Champion akin to the Commander via Ryland
4. Adapting Primordus' own tactics against it to gain more power(freezing people over to use them a batteries)
5. Sucking down the ley lines that met around Anvil Rock

By the time Dragonstorm begins Jormag was 100% in a spot of power over Primordus. Aurene even mentions that so long as Jormag is connected to its champion, and the frozen, they will keep Primordus cowed. And if you somehow fail the Dragonstorm event Jormag starts gloating about taking over, and an era of frost, because its beaten Primordus.

Jormag went into Dragonstorm 100% capable of beating Primordus, despite Primordus getting its own unique champion via Braham, and getting more powerful via its large scale burning. Even if it wasn't being driven crazy by being connected to Primordus, Jormag made all the tactical plays it could, and went into the fight only when it knew it could safely beat Primordus.

The entirety of the first half of IBS, and even a large part of Champions, was all about WHY it would go into that fight.

Edited August 22, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[draxynnic.3719]

Soo-Won's lack of size change might simply be a matter of the change not being instantaneous. We see this when Aurene took a share of Balthazar's magic - she didn't become Adolescent Aurene right away, she flew off and came back bigger later. There seems to only be days at most from the reactor sabotage and Soo-Won's death, so there may not have been time for the magic influx to result in size change. Another consideration is that the Dragonvoid was making minions at a much more rapid rate than the other Elder Dragons, and those minions were mostly being made from pure magic rather than corrupting existing beings or materials (with the exception of the corrupted Saltsprays, and even a couple of those might have been pure magic). So the Dragonvoid was probably investing magic into minions rather than making Soo-Won bigger.

When it comes to Kralkatorrik, I think we need to remember that Aurene was on-site, had been taught what to do, wasn't competing with Kralkatorrik like she was when Balthazar died, and in fact Sane Kralkatorrik WANTED her to take his magic. Evidently some escaped because Kralkatorrik's aspect appeared in the Dragonvoid, but I think it's reasonable to think that however much Jormag and Primordus received, it wasn't enough to compensate for what Balthazar took in the first place. Certainly, neither show signs in IBS of having absorbed abilities from Kralkatorrik or Balthazar (although Primordus is similar enough to Balthazar magic-wise that it's hard to say for sure). It's also worth noting that Aurene was surprised at how much got away from her after Dragonstorm, from which it could possibly be inferred that less got away when she claimed Kralkatorrik's magic.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Certainly, neither show signs in IBS of having absorbed abilities from Kralkatorrik or Balthazar (although Primordus is similar enough to Balthazar magic-wise that it's hard to say for sure).

I would disagree here, and I know other people have mentioned these specific things as well in other threads.

Before IBS, when Jormag wanted to send minions around via the Mists it did so using Svanir shamans to open gateways. After Kralk's death, Jormag seemingly gained the ability to just do so at will. Kralk only got this ability after consuming Balthazar's magic. Nothing before Kralk's death suggested that Jormag could portal itself into the Mists, walk around in it, and then portal itself out, like it was doing in the months after Jormag Rising, and before Dragonstorm. It only gained this ability after Kralk's death, and Kralk only got his power from Balthazar. Looking at the dialogue from the end of Jormag Rising, Aurene even says Jormag is moving through the Mists as Kralk did.

Likewise, Primordus got enough magic from Kralk/Balthazar upon Kralk's death that the Spirits of the Wild specifically called out the god magic's influence on affecting Primordus' appearance, which certainly wouldn't have happened if he barely got any. Also, Taimi notes that the Destroyers in the Metrica DRM are giving off readings shes never seen before, and states at the end that Primordus' Destroyers are creating a feedback loop with the Elder Dragon where the more they burn the more powerful they become. This is similar to the whole "resonance" power Kralk had with its Branded, and, similar to Jormag's free use mist portaling, is a power never before noted or suggested by any past experiences with Primordus or the Destroyers.

Both seemed to have gained powers from Kralk's death. Jormag getting the ability to freely portal itself and its minions in and out of the Mists, and Primordus getting Kralk's resonance power.

3 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

but I think it's reasonable to think that however much Jormag and Primordus received, it wasn't enough to compensate for what Balthazar took in the first place.

At the beginning of Champions, in the "Primordus Rising" instance, the Commander notes that the Destroyers were "harder to kill then last time", with Taimi also noting that they were both bigger, and meaner. The last time we fought Destroyers was like... in PoF, long before Kralk's death, in the Desert Highlands map. And those weren't any weaker then the ones from LWS3 either. They've demonstrably gotten bigger, meaner, and stronger, then we ever saw them before, even before Balth took a bunch of the dragon's magic at the end of LWS3, and they've developed new powers on top of it.

Given that Aurene doesn't horde magic like the other Dragons do, its unlikely she took in most of Kralk's magic, or even could given how stupidly super charged he was at the time of his death. A good chunk of that would shoot off to Jormag, Primordus, and Soo-Won, explaining not only their development of new powers, but the considerable strength Jormag and Primordus had in IBS given last time we saw them Balth had zapped their magic levels to pre-awakening levels.

IBS is pretty clear the dragons are stronger then they've ever been. And given how relatively short of a period Primordus' invasion lasted, I don't think it possible for him to reach that level of power without having gotten a substantial boost from Kralk's death. Jormag is a little bit easier to excuse because of its draining of the corrupted Spirits, but even that, and the power it was zapping from the Frozen, aren't enough to account from going from pre-awakening levels to just the level of power it demonstrated in such a short period of time.

Both had to have gotten a pretty big kick start from Kralk's death.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

IIRC, the Svanir were using mist portals as far back as the personal story, when they were assaulting the wolf Harvoun.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

23 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

IIRC, the Svanir were using mist portals as far back as the personal story, when they were assaulting the wolf Harvoun.

The story does say that the purpose of the assault was to gain the Havroun's ability to enter the Mists, those portals came from the Wolf Havroun, if against their will.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And yet, at the end of EoD, Soo-Won clearly had more magic in her then any of the other Elder Dragons we've fought, and was still the same size as she was in the reactor despite it.

Except Soo-Won clearly didn't? Yes, she had access to all six domains, but she appeared very much weaker than Kralkatorrik during Season 4 - the amount of destruction she caused personally was pretty minimal, and most damage was caused by Void - not Soo-Won - breaking free.

And the reason for this is very explicitly, and repeatedly, stated throughout Act 2 of End of Dragons: She's been having her magic drained into the reactor, powering the dragonjade magitech across Cantha. The fact she has access to 5 domains is even the cause of the jadetech going haywire in New Kaineng meta/Act 2, because the magic was drained out of Soo-Won post-IBS.

Quote

1. Primordus got drained by Balthazar at the end of LWS3 yes. But then Balthazar's magic got taken by Kralkatorrik when he died, and when Kralatorrik died a large part of its magic went back to the other elder Dragons. So a good chunk of the magic Primordus lost came back full circle by the time we face him in Dragonstorm. This on top of Primordus getting more powerful over the course of several months, during the events of Champions, due to his minions burning everything, creating an looping cycle of gaining more power.
2. Likewise, while Jormag got drained by Balthazar at the end of LWS3, a chunk of its magic, along with Balthazar's, and Kralkatorrik's, would have been restored to it when Kralkatorrik died. This on top of absorbing magic from the corrupted Spirits of the Wild, the magic its minions were normally giving it, and all the power it was gaining via its multi-month freezing of people in ice as a means to build power like Primordus had. And when we face it in Dragonstorm its the same size as it was back in Jormag Rising, indicating no change in size between those two points despite gaining more magic. The Fang of Jormag still fits on Jormag's Dragonstorm model.
3. Well no. Kralkatorrik's body wasn't formed at the end of PoF, but his head clearly was. Yes his body was much larger then it normally would be because he had spread it out in the storm, but nothing indicates the part of his body that was formed, aka the head, would be  any different in size. And Kralk's LWS4 model changing between releases was admitted to the devs to be the result of gameplay, and needing different sized models for different encounters due to the game engine, not any in-universe lore reason.
4. I never said Mordremoth was "the whole jungle" obviously he isn't all the normal plants, trees, and other things that make up 95% of the jungle.

Since neither Soo-Won, or Jormag, increased in size after getting more magic, the whole idea of magic = larger is pretty much bunk.

1. There is very literally no support for your statement of "a good chunk of the magic Primordus lost came back full circle". Yes, Primordus did get some magic back, but if it had gotten the 200+ years of magic it gathered after waking up, then Primordus would have woken up long before Wildfire instance. Elder Dragons need magic to rise, as proven point blank with the Season 1 finale, and Primordus and Jormag were both put to pre-rise levels thanks to Balthazar, only reaching rising levels during Jormag Rising and Wildfire respectively. In other words, at those instances, Jormag and Primordus' power levels were equivalent to when they woke up the first time between the two games.
2. Again, you're making the assumption that all of Jormag's magic returned immediately with Kralkatorrik's death. But we know this isn't true because Aurene had balanced out most of the magic, which you've even argued about (and in favor of) in the past with me, and Jormag+Primordus didn't wake immediately despite regaining magic. The magic Kralkatorrik consumed were returned to the ley-lines, and J+P had to regain magic from the ley-lines and other methods, and at the point of waking were far weaker than they were during Season 3. This is even showcased visually by the lack of Death/Plant-Touched Destroyers.
3. The head was not formed, not completely. If you look at the model, his neck is very clearly hollow in that form, versus his solid form. Additionally, his head is much more rocky and while holding the same silhouette, is ultimately extremely different in details. It's all spread out, spaced, and hollowed out. Much like the Shatterer's model (which they even used with Kralk's storm head slapped on top to create the silhouette for the cinematic at the end of PoF).
4. Ignoring my point entirely in that Mordremoth's actual body is the Mouth of Mordremoth as proven by dev comment and in-game dialogue / visuals three times over.
5. Jormag DOES increase in size between Jormag Rising and Dragonstorm - as that_shaman even proved by ripping the models (which I sadly cannot find atm), but also this reddit post showcased. Primordus' second shrink between Wildfire and Dragonstorm is a bit of an oddity that is obviously done for the sake of the Dragonstorm fight design, much like The End/Dragonflight model of Kralk. Unfortunately, rule of cool overrides consistency at times.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[draxynnic.3719]

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I would disagree here, and I know other people have mentioned these specific things as well in other threads.

Before IBS, when Jormag wanted to send minions around via the Mists it did so using Svanir shamans to open gateways. After Kralk's death, Jormag seemingly gained the ability to just do so at will. Kralk only got this ability after consuming Balthazar's magic. Nothing before Kralk's death suggested that Jormag could portal itself into the Mists, walk around in it, and then portal itself out, like it was doing in the months after Jormag Rising, and before Dragonstorm. It only gained this ability after Kralk's death, and Kralk only got his power from Balthazar. Looking at the dialogue from the end of Jormag Rising, Aurene even says Jormag is moving through the Mists as Kralk did.

Inconclusive. It'd been well established that the Spirits also have access to Mist portals, and Jormag has been siphoning power from the spirits, including getting some (although not enough to destroy them) from the Greater Spirits in Jormag Rising. In fact, the portals we see in Drizzlewood are all themed towards one of the lost Spirits.

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Likewise, Primordus got enough magic from Kralk/Balthazar upon Kralk's death that the Spirits of the Wild specifically called out the god magic's influence on affecting Primordus' appearance, which certainly wouldn't have happened if he barely got any. Also, Taimi notes that the Destroyers in the Metrica DRM are giving off readings shes never seen before, and states at the end that Primordus' Destroyers are creating a feedback loop with the Elder Dragon where the more they burn the more powerful they become. This is similar to the whole "resonance" power Kralk had with its Branded, and, similar to Jormag's free use mist portaling, is a power never before noted or suggested by any past experiences with Primordus or the Destroyers.

The "resonance" thing Kralkatorrik had was a weakness, not a "the more my minions destroy the more powerful I become" thing (although it's possible that was also a thing). The feedback loop is probably an indication of this is how Primordus eats - his minions burn things, he gains whatever magic was in the things they burned. As for the Destroyers being stronger, Primordus and his generals seem to experiment with the powers of Destroyers a lot. Primordus, or whatever equivalent of the Great Destroyer was creating minions on his behalf, may simply have decided to experiment with fewer but individually stronger Destroyers.

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Given that Aurene doesn't horde magic like the other Dragons do, its unlikely she took in most of Kralk's magic, or even could given how stupidly super charged he was at the time of his death. A good chunk of that would shoot off to Jormag, Primordus, and Soo-Won, explaining not only their development of new powers, but the considerable strength Jormag and Primordus had in IBS given last time we saw them Balth had zapped their magic levels to pre-awakening levels.

IBS is pretty clear the dragons are stronger then they've ever been. And given how relatively short of a period Primordus' invasion lasted, I don't think it possible for him to reach that level of power without having gotten a substantial boost from Kralk's death. Jormag is a little bit easier to excuse because of its draining of the corrupted Spirits, but even that, and the power it was zapping from the Frozen, aren't enough to account from going from pre-awakening levels to just the level of power it demonstrated in such a short period of time.

Both had to have gotten a pretty big kick start from Kralk's death.

She doesn't hoard magic, but she does manage it. She shunts it into the ley line network and manages how it flows through the network so it never builds up in one place enough to cause problems. Once she claims it, she doesn't contain it within her own body, but it's unlikely that she shunts it all straight to the other Elder Dragons either. In her initial appearance in the cinematic after ascension, too, she appears quite a bit larger than her model in IBS and EoD would be, although there are a number of possible explanations for that. Sure, it's likely that some magic has made its way from Kralkatorrik than the others, but more in the sense of the magic flowing naturally, and if anything ambient magic levels seem to have gone down since Aurene ascended, so it doesn't seem likely that Jormag and Primordus got a huge boost.

Plus, as Konig pointed out, getting a huge boost in magic is normally what wakes them up. That they didn't awaken when Kralkatorrik died is an indication that whatever they might have received, it doesn't compensate for what they'd lost from the Machine.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The "resonance" thing Kralkatorrik had was a weakness, not a "the more my minions destroy the more powerful I become" thing (although it's possible that was also a thing).

That's just incorrect in its entirety.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_%26_Champion

Quote

Glint: Good. Now you shall see how this captured magic can be put to use.

Glint: Kralkatorrik and his minions share a common resonance. This strength can also be a weakness.

Glint: With the right resonance, crystal can not only be broken, but molded. Shaped.

Its explicitly called a strength that can be turned into a weakness if the right frequency is used. And we see him using it as a power-up for his Branded minions a few times. Kralk and his minions create crystals that can heal/empower them in several instances across the game. Working off the resonance power to not hurt them, but improve them.

This is exactly like how Zhaitan and Mordremoth's weaknesses were also strengths

• Zhaitan's reliance on specialized minions gave it an ability to spread itself out and control its forces over distances better, but opened up the possibility of being blinded/crippled if those minions were destroyed.
• Mordremoth's mind being able to jump anywhere across its vine body, and its vine body being so spread out across Tyria that it stretched from the deep Maguuma to Ascalon, meant it was effectively unkillable from a physical standpoint. But opened up the weakness of if you can get into its mind you can desotry it without having to try to hunt down every last bit of its physical corruption body.
• One can make the same case for Jormag and Primordus as well. If their weakness is each other, so long as they just don't interact they;'re effectively unstoppable on their own.

Quote

As for the Destroyers being stronger, Primordus and his generals seem to experiment with the powers of Destroyers a lot. Primordus, or whatever equivalent of the Great Destroyer was creating minions on his behalf, may simply have decided to experiment with fewer but individually stronger Destroyers.

Except there weren't fewer Destroyers during Primordus' invasion of the surface, there was more. A lot more, so much more that even the Dwarves were surprised about the surge. So not only were they noticeably stronger, there was significantly more of them as well.

Quote

Plus, as Konig pointed out, getting a huge boost in magic is normally what wakes them up. That they didn't awaken when Kralkatorrik died is an indication that whatever they might have received, it doesn't compensate for what they'd lost from the Machine.

Except the very next story beat after Kralk's death is the reveal that, in the months since the dragon's death, Jormag has awoken enough to begin a large scale manipulation of Bangar and start all of the events of IBS. The dragon was very much quasi-awalened by Kralk's death, indicating it got quite a it of power from it.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Nogothanc.5014]

Sorry to interrupt the exchange of words. Just throw in my answer to ops question:

In my oppinion the worst lore mistake by far is Path of Nonsense and the whole Balthaddon ark.  I still cannot fathom that arenanet just scratched and utterly destroyed the eternal army and waste the potential of the war between halfbrothers....

Oh and just a minor thing but its still ridiculous to me that during character generation arenanet let "human" players choose the god to worship, then turn that choice against them, make fun of it, "force" you to fight and kill it.

My brain still refuses to accept and comes up with ridiculous thoughts like Balthazar is the god of fire. He is and controls everything that fire can do... So it should be a piece of cake for Balthazar to inherit powers like that of fire creatures...right?  Phoenix?!? 

My brain is just stupid.

You can now continue to argue.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

8 hours ago, Nogothanc.5014 said:

Sorry to interrupt the exchange of words. Just throw in my answer to ops question:

In my oppinion the worst lore mistake by far is Path of Nonsense and the whole Balthaddon ark.  I still cannot fathom that arenanet just scratched and utterly destroyed the eternal army and waste the potential of the war between halfbrothers....

Oh and just a minor thing but its still ridiculous to me that during character generation arenanet let "human" players choose the god to worship, then turn that choice against them, make fun of it, "force" you to fight and kill it.

My brain still refuses to accept and comes up with ridiculous thoughts like Balthazar is the god of fire. He is and controls everything that fire can do... So it should be a piece of cake for Balthazar to inherit powers like that of fire creatures...right?  Phoenix?!? 

My brain is just stupid.

You can now continue to argue.

Ehh, technically that character creation step for humans isn't "I worship _____" but rather "Everyone said I was blessed by _____ when I was young".  Yes, its still annoying but its not quite the same as killing a god you've chosen to worship.

As for the phoenix thing that's not really how that work, especially GW's phoenix's are based off the Asian version, not the Greek ones.

Finally....don't encourage them to continue arguing.

[Malus.2184]

On 8/21/2022 at 8:31 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Where did you get this from?

There's a line related to one of the legendaries where the speaker is worried about how the gods might respond to Balthazar's death, but AFAIK we haven't seen any indication as to what their response actually is.

 

On 8/21/2022 at 11:26 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

But nothing really shows Lyssa as insane, let alone reacting negatively to Balthazar's death?

Are you just wanting to kill Lyssa for the sake of killing Lyssa, or perhaps because of headcanon you've developed/encountered?

The parable of Lyssa from LW s3 ep 6. This was official canon that was taught within the church. She's objectively lying to the soldiers that die, that has nothing to do with teaching them what the difference is between reality and illusions, or anyone for that matter, it's objectively psychological abuse.

[draxynnic.3719]

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

That's just incorrect in its entirety.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scion_%26_Champion

Its explicitly called a strength that can be turned into a weakness if the right frequency is used. And we see him using it as a power-up for his Branded minions a few times. Kralk and his minions create crystals that can heal/empower them in several instances across the game. Working off the resonance power to not hurt them, but improve them.

This is exactly like how Zhaitan and Mordremoth's weaknesses were also strengths

• Zhaitan's reliance on specialized minions gave it an ability to spread itself out and control its forces over distances better, but opened up the possibility of being blinded/crippled if those minions were destroyed.
• Mordremoth's mind being able to jump anywhere across its vine body, and its vine body being so spread out across Tyria that it stretched from the deep Maguuma to Ascalon, meant it was effectively unkillable from a physical standpoint. But opened up the weakness of if you can get into its mind you can desotry it without having to try to hunt down every last bit of its physical corruption body.
• One can make the same case for Jormag and Primordus as well. If their weakness is each other, so long as they just don't interact they;'re effectively unstoppable on their own.

None of that disproves what I said - that the resonance was a weakness, and that the burning thing was distinct to the resonance thing Kralkatorrik and his minions. The reveal there was that burning things was (part of) how Primordus absorbs more magic. It's a "fire spreads and creates more fire" thing rather than a borrowed crystal thing.

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except there weren't fewer Destroyers during Primordus' invasion of the surface, there was more. A lot more, so much more that even the Dwarves were surprised about the surge. So not only were they noticeably stronger, there was significantly more of them as well.

Which, if Primordus was investing more into minions, would keep him smaller than he would be otherwise. But:

18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except the very next story beat after Kralk's death is the reveal that, in the months since the dragon's death, Jormag has awoken enough to begin a large scale manipulation of Bangar and start all of the events of IBS. The dragon was very much quasi-awalened by Kralk's death, indicating it got quite a it of power from it.

Which Mordremoth did to Scarlet, but Mordremoth still required a big burst of magic to wake him up fully. Same with Jormag. The "not fully awake, but stirring enough to influence events to help itself wake up" state is pretty clearly a lower magic state than fully awake.

Which applies to both Primordus and Jormag. Champions essentially started off with Primordus's minions racing to catch up, and Jormag trying to stay ahead until they had the opportunity to take Primordus out.

[Kalavier.1097]

11 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Ehh, technically that character creation step for humans isn't "I worship _____" but rather "Everyone said I was blessed by _____ when I was young".  Yes, its still annoying but its not quite the same as killing a god you've chosen to worship.

As for the phoenix thing that's not really how that work, especially GW's phoenix's are based off the Asian version, not the Greek ones.

Finally....don't encourage them to continue arguing.

Nothing about how devoted you are either. Balthazar, Kormir, and Grenth have lines saying you do worship them but not how hard you do.

Plus yeah. the Imperial and Rainbow Phoenix aren't at all involved with fire, and we see the Imperial phoenix in Gw2.

20 hours ago, Nogothanc.5014 said:

Sorry to interrupt the exchange of words. Just throw in my answer to ops question:

In my oppinion the worst lore mistake by far is Path of Nonsense and the whole Balthaddon ark.  I still cannot fathom that arenanet just scratched and utterly destroyed the eternal army and waste the potential of the war between halfbrothers....

Oh and just a minor thing but its still ridiculous to me that during character generation arenanet let "human" players choose the god to worship, then turn that choice against them, make fun of it, "force" you to fight and kill it.

My brain still refuses to accept and comes up with ridiculous thoughts like Balthazar is the god of fire. He is and controls everything that fire can do... So it should be a piece of cake for Balthazar to inherit powers like that of fire creatures...right?  Phoenix?!? 

My brain is just stupid.

You can now continue to argue.

First off, IMO by going "Path of Nosense and balthaddon" it makes you appear childish, or not serious.

Secondly, Balthazar is the god of fire, but that doesn't mean he... instantly controls all fire period, or can do anything flame related creatures can do. That's not how the human gods work.

 

7 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

 

The parable of Lyssa from LW s3 ep 6. This was official canon that was taught within the church. She's objectively lying to the soldiers that die, that has nothing to do with teaching them what the difference is between reality and illusions, or anyone for that matter, it's objectively psychological abuse.

Lyssa never said that they would win. She never said their victory was assured. She gave them visions of what could be, and they fought as hard as they could with all the joy they had regained. They died, but that wasn't a lie on Lyssa's part.

Even then, Lyssa is the goddess of illusions. It's not like she is greatly known for telling the truth entirely anyway.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

12 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Ehh, technically that character creation step for humans isn't "I worship _____" but rather "Everyone said I was blessed by _____ when I was young".  Yes, its still annoying but its not quite the same as killing a god you've chosen to worship.

If human who was blessed by Balthazar:

<Character name>: Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and enjoyed your blessings for as long as I can remember.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice#The_Sacrifice

You're correct, but also incorrect! 😄

12 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

As for the phoenix thing that's not really how that work, especially GW's phoenix's are based off the Asian version, not the Greek ones.

Well, not anymore. Hai Jii's new retconned story that villainizes Grenth has him doing a very traditionally Western phoenix by being burned alive and rising from the ashes...

Hai Jii stood before the dais where Grenth sat, and he begged, "Please, this isn't their fault. I'm the one that killed the invaders—my hands are dipped in their blood."

The God of Death pondered the boy's pleas; but instead of showing any benevolence, he sentenced Hai Jii's family to an eternity of torture by flame. The boy crumpled to the floor and wept tears of magma. His cheeks burned away with every drop.

When he awoke, his body was made of stars—his arms powerful, fiery wings. A new phoenix had risen from the ashes of the Underworld, and he took his throne beside the other Celestials. There, he would weep an eternity of flame.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Celestial_Plaque

The retcon, btw, is that Grenth didn't torture Hai Jii's family, but the ones who killed his family. The original GW1 story:

The Phoenix, the representation of fiery eternity in the Underworld.

Hai Jii was the youngest of eight sons from a noble family long known for producing talented Warriors. He did not like to fight, preferring to wield his paintbrush with which he had unsurpassed skill. One evening, his family was attacked by a neighboring warlord. Hai Jii was tortured and left for dead, but as the invaders swept down upon his two baby sisters, he arose, took up the sword he had so despised, and single-handedly killed every invader. When his grim task was complete, Hai Jii dropped to his knees and begged Grenth to see to it that his family's murderers found no peace in the afterlife. Grenth heard Hai Jii's prayers, dooming the souls of the murderers to an eternity of fiery torture.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Hai_Jii_(object)

I do not get this bizarre retcon, given that the other three are perfectly inline (if expanding) the original lore. This is a 180 on the original lore, and at no other point in all of GW1 or GW2 is Grenth ever presented as an unjust god - even in the Parable of Grenth from Siren's Landing where he condemns a woman to torture, he 1) does so because she murdered her criminal husband (e.g., killers in the name of justice still face justice), and 2) offered her a choice to be taken now so she can witness her husband's punishment before meeting her own, or live the rest of her life as she deems (with the potential implication of redemption).

So this is just bizarre.

8 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The parable of Lyssa from LW s3 ep 6. This was official canon that was taught within the church. She's objectively lying to the soldiers that die, that has nothing to do with teaching them what the difference is between reality and illusions, or anyone for that matter, it's objectively psychological abuse.

Two things:

1. Parables are fictional stories designed to teach a lesson, and are not based off of real events. By this logic, all six parables in Siren's Landing are not true events, but have a hidden lesson within them.
2. Lyssa's Parable is pretty subjective, actually. You say she's lying to soldiers that die, that she's tricking them into believing they'll survive the battle. But I see the opposite: she's given men doomed to die one final night of happiness before their inevitable demise (and we know it is inevitable because they "put [their] heart and soul into the battle", meaning they put all their strength into fighting), a show that even in the face of death, Lyssa is wanting to bring happiness in the face of sorrow. By far not objectively anything.

And did Lyssa lie? Let me quote the full Parable of Lyssa:

From out of the darkness, there stepped a child into the campfire's light. And she said, "I am Lyssa, and I have come to teach you what is illusion and what is truth."

But the soldiers there did not believe her. They laughed and said, "If you're Lyssa, then show us your beauty, for we can surely use it on this dark night. We have lost hope that this war will end."

The child approached, and her smile held divine grace. "Share your food with me, and in return for your kindness, I will show you beauty the likes of you will never see again."

And so the kind soldiers did, and the child ate with ravenous hunger. When the last bone had been tossed aside, and the last bean swallowed, the child began to skip around the outside of the campfire. She touched each man on his head, one at a time, as they laughed and jibed her until, one at a time, they fell into a deep slumber. Each man dreamed a different dream, but each dream was a vision of the life they would lead once the war was over—wives, children, riches, open air, health, and peace.

And when they awoke upon the morrow, the child was gone and the enemy had arrived. They fought joyfully, with all their might, because they all remembered their dreams and knew they would win the war. Each man put his heart and soul into the battle, and each man, one at a time, was slaughtered.

Where is the lie? She said two things: 1) She will teach them the difference between illusion and truth; 2) she will show them beauty they'll never see again. And by showing them a future of happiness that cannot come to pass because, despite fighting with all their might, they ended up dying (an inevitable death).

She didn't once lie, though she did play the Monkey's Paw. And this came after they insulted her.

 

They asked her for hope, she gave them hope. Is it Lyssa's fault that despite that hope and motivation, they still lost?

[Malus.2184]

4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

1. Parables are fictional stories designed to teach a lesson, and are not based off of real events. By this logic, all six parables in Siren's Landing are not true events, but have a hidden lesson within them.L

And you ignored this "This was official canon that was taught within the church."

The context here is, that's extremely important., is that the gods are real and were active at this time when this was taught. If Lyssa was opposed to it she could have protested it in person. She was the manager.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

None of that disproves what I said - that the resonance was a weakness, and that the burning thing was distinct to the resonance thing Kralkatorrik and his minions. The reveal there was that burning things was (part of) how Primordus absorbs more magic. It's a "fire spreads and creates more fire" thing rather than a borrowed crystal thing.

Except, again, this ignores that this is a totally new ability, gained only after Kralk's death, and Taimi even calls out how she hasn't been able to duplicate the readings shes getting in the lab.

Your argument here only works if you assume that the Asura are just SO DUMB that... the fundamental way by which Primordus gets more magic was unknown to them, despite them spending the last 200+ years studying Primordus and its minions, not to mention all the knowledge they got from Rata Novus, as well as their studies on Ember Bay.

Occam's razor leads that the simplest explanation is the right one. That this previously unknown new power, which only manifested after Kralk died, and is similar to Kralks own, was inherited from Kralk, as the game had previously established the dragons inheriting the powers of the others when they die. Similar to the mists portal Jormag suddenly gained the ability to use on his own after Kralk's death.

Hell even the wiki points this out

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus#Powers

Quote

After Kralkatorrik's death, Primordus received magic from the deceased Elder Crystal Dragon and improved a link to his destroyers resembling a feedback loop. When destroyers burn, the resulting energy makes Primordus more powerful, which in turn makes the Destroyers more rabid in a continuous cycle which eventually results in the Fire Dragon awakening.^[28]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus#cite_note-28

Quote

Taimi: The power readings aren't high enough to wake Primordus yet, if that's what you're asking. [...]

Taimi: That link we discovered between the destroyers and Primordus? A feedback loop, amplified by Kralk's death.

Gorrik: Destroyers burn more, Primordus gets stronger, destroyers get more rabid. The effect is exponential.

Gorrik: With Ryland's help, we've identified and measured the ice dragon's cumulative power, versus that of the fire dragon.

 

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which, if Primordus was investing more into minions, would keep him smaller than he would be otherwise. But:

There's really nothing suggesting that this is how dragon minion creation works.

7 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Which applies to both Primordus and Jormag. Champions essentially started off with Primordus's minions racing to catch up, and Jormag trying to stay ahead until they had the opportunity to take Primordus out.

This is also incorrect. Taimi explicitly calls out that Jormag and Primordus are at equal power in the very first DRM. The first half of IBS was Jormag trying to play catch up to Primordus, and then Champions as them trying to stay on top of each other.

Remember, we know distance affects how much of the magic the other Elder Dragons get when one dies. Jormag was the most far off of the Elder Dragons(sans Soo-Won) and thus got the lesser amount of magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth's deaths.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Response_Mission:_Metrica_Province

Quote

Taimi: Right now, Jormag and Primordus are evenly matched.

<Character name>: So we get them to destroy one another.

Taimi: Pretty sure Jormag won't play along. We may have no choice but to help them kill Primordus.

 

Edited August 24, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Malus.2184]

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Lyssa never said that they would win. She never said their victory was assured. She gave them visions of what could be, and they fought as hard as they could with all the joy they had regained. They died, but that wasn't a lie on Lyssa's part.

That's still a lie, a lie by ommision. And she made it a lot easier for them to lose since she gave them the vision that they would win, what reason would they have to actually apply themselves beyond fighting harder? People win by fighting smarter.

And you assume that she lied by intent. From our point of view she lied and got them killed intentionally. From her point of view she just told the truth, which was that they could win. If the chance is higher than zero then the possibility is there and no lie has been told. Howeer, technically correct is always contextually wrong.

[Nogothanc.5014]

15 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Ehh, technically that character creation step for humans isn't "I worship _____" but rather "Everyone said I was blessed by _____ when I was young".  Yes, its still annoying but its not quite the same as killing a god you've chosen to worship.

As for the phoenix thing that's not really how that work, especially GW's phoenix's are based off the Asian version, not the Greek ones.

Finally....don't encourage them to continue arguing.

Ehh, technically the main emphasis of my statement is not in the word worship, it is in the word choose. 

As for phoenixes... Thanks for enlighten me. I treally hought this GW2 spell, that is animated like in this official GW2 video (0:28) and this GW1 spell were related to greek mythology. 

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And you ignored this "This was official canon that was taught within the church."

The context here is, that's extremely important., is that the gods are real and were active at this time when this was taught. If Lyssa was opposed to it she could have protested it in person. She was the manager.

Was it though? We got the parables from scattered across Orr, not in the scriptures of Lyssa. Nothing says the parable was part of the official church's lessons.

And keep in mind, that Lyssa didn't live on the world of Tyria for 1071 years before Orr sunk. That's 1071 years for no opposition from the gods for altering the beliefs a tad bit. They were not managers of the faiths, they kept their distance even when they lived in Arah, let alone when they lived in the Mists.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And she made it a lot easier for them to lose since she gave them the vision that they would win, what reason would they have to actually apply themselves beyond fighting harder? People win by fighting smarter.

And before they were given the dreams, they had fully believed there to be no hope for them. People win by having morale - without morale, they don't even fight hard for their life. They just give up or run away.

And the thing is that the parable doesn't say "they fought harder but dumber" at all. It says "they put all their heart and soul into the battle", and that doesn't in any way proclaim not putting their reason into the fight.

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

From our point of view she lied and got them killed intentionally.

From your subjective view, she lied and got them killed intentionally. From my subjective view, she gave them comfort and happiness before an inevitable death.