What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?

[Kalavier.1097]

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

That's still a lie, a lie by ommision. And she made it a lot easier for them to lose since she gave them the vision that they would win, what reason would they have to actually apply themselves beyond fighting harder? People win by fighting smarter.

And you assume that she lied by intent. From our point of view she lied and got them killed intentionally. From her point of view she just told the truth, which was that they could win. If the chance is higher than zero then the possibility is there and no lie has been told. Howeer, technically correct is always contextually wrong.

Where is the lie?

"I will show you beauty of the likes you will never see again."

Nothing she said was a lie, they just mistook the dream/vision was being true.

They were literally told they would never see whatever they saw, and they instead took it as being the future and thus fought, and died with joy and hope in their hearts.

7 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

If human who was blessed by Balthazar:

<Character name>: Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and enjoyed your blessings for as long as I can remember.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice#The_Sacrifice

You're correct, but also incorrect! 😄

Well, not anymore. Hai Jii's new retconned story that villainizes Grenth has him doing a very traditionally Western phoenix by being burned alive and rising from the ashes...

 

Yeah the first bit does say the PC worships, just not how heavily they do.

the second bit, I wonder if it was a misreading of the original plaque so it was plugged in wrong?

3 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

And you ignored this "This was official canon that was taught within the church."

The context here is, that's extremely important., is that the gods are real and were active at this time when this was taught. If Lyssa was opposed to it she could have protested it in person. She was the manager.

Nothing Lyssa said in the Parable was a lie. And Lyssa is a duality type figure.

3 hours ago, Nogothanc.5014 said:

Ehh, technically the main emphasis of my statement is not in the word worship, it is in the word choose. 

As for phoenixes... Thanks for enlighten me. I treally hought this GW2 spell, that is animated like in this official GW2 video (0:28) and this GW1 spell were related to greek mythology. 

And by the time the PC has encountered Balthazar, they are not the same person that they left Shaemoor as. They have expanded their views.

What Balthazar was doing was not in line with the PC's beliefs, as he was harming innocents getting in his way at the time, etc.

 

Phoenix has spells of fire yes, but the actual creature is not a fiery bird.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

If human who was blessed by Balthazar:

<Character name>: Balthazar! Stop this! I've prayed to you and enjoyed your blessings for as long as I can remember.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Sacrifice#The_Sacrifice

You're correct, but also incorrect! 😄

Make no mistake, I'm well aware of that line as my main character is a human that was "Blessed by Balthazar", but it in the context of Nogothanc's complaints and my response it didn't seem relevant (also, wouldn't it be whomever that replaced Balthazar that'd be doling out those "Blessings" now? Really want this answered in the very near future).

Was completely unaware of this very horrible retcon to the story of Hai Jii and this almost reversal of Grenth's typical behavior.  Only thing that makes sense off the top of my head is that they're planning on killing off Grenth next and are doing some character assassination before hand to try to get more of the player base behind it this time.  Hopefully I'm very wrong.

Edited August 25, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Kalavier.1097]

32 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Make no mistake, I'm well aware of that line as my main character is a human that was "Blessed by Balthazar", but it in the context of Nogothanc's complaints and my response it didn't seem relevant (also, wouldn't it be whomever that replaced Balthazar that'd be doling out those "Blessings" now? Really want this answered in the very near future).

Was completely unaware of this very horrible retcon to the story of Hai Jii and this almost reversal of Grenth's typical behavior.  Only thing that makes sense off the top of my head is that they're planning on killing off Grenth next and are doing some character assassination before hand to try to get more of the player base behind it this time.  Hopefully I'm very wrong.

I'd lean toward a mistake in reading the original text unless there is anything else that supports any change on behavior.

edit: Just because literally nothing else kinda shows this. Though each of the celestial plaques show a slightly different tale then the GW1 version, or a different perspective.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[The Greyhawk.9107]

1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd lean toward a mistake in reading the original text unless there is anything else that supports any change on behavior.

edit: Just because literally nothing else kinda shows this. Though each of the celestial plaques show a slightly different tale then the GW1 version, or a different perspective.

I don't know, man. Its pretty wildly different from the original and like Konig said Grenth has, aside from Dwayna, always been the most even keeled of the Six. This is a significant deviation from the norm for him.  This reads like blatant vandalism of the lore by newer writers that don't give a crap about what was written before them and possibly have an axe to grind. 

[Kalavier.1097]

35 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I don't know, man. Its pretty wildly different from the original and like Konig said Grenth has, aside from Dwayna, always been the most even keeled of the Six. This is a significant deviation from the norm for him.  This reads like blatant vandalism of the lore by newer writers that don't give a crap about what was written before them and possibly have an axe to grind. 

Or one who misread the original text and got the "who got damned" line mixed up, and thus wrote the family punished.

As I said. We have a singular instance with a singular plaque reading this way. Not even a plaque in a major achievement/area everybody goes through, but out of the way in a JP. Hence "Are there ANY other instances of Grenth being written this way in GW2?"

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd lean toward a mistake in reading the original text unless there is anything else that supports any change on behavior.

edit: Just because literally nothing else kinda shows this. Though each of the celestial plaques show a slightly different tale then the GW1 version, or a different perspective.

5 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Or one who misread the original text and got the "who got damned" line mixed up, and thus wrote the family punished.

As I said. We have a singular instance with a singular plaque reading this way. Not even a plaque in a major achievement/area everybody goes through, but out of the way in a JP. Hence "Are there ANY other instances of Grenth being written this way in GW2?"

  I want to believe that, however the fact they also added an artifact of Grenth that's keeping several Kurzicks imprisoned as undead in the Echovald is a bit... Iffy. The artifact is twisted by Void, but that's only a recent development - so it would have been trapping the souls there for a long time before the Void.

So yeah, I am leaning towards the character assassination to make the god of death the next on the killrole. Which fits given there are dev notes that showcase that Grenth was considered to be the god fought during Season 3 / Expansion 2, before Balthazar was settled on.
And that makes me very sad because Grenth is not ever depicted as evil, as his entire point is that there's a neutral view of death. But it seems Grenth will fall into the Christianized view of "god of death and underworld == satan figure == bad guy" like Hades often does.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

  I want to believe that, however the fact they also added an artifact of Grenth that's keeping several Kurzicks imprisoned as undead in the Echovald is a bit... Iffy. The artifact is twisted by Void, but that's only a recent development - so it would have been trapping the souls there for a long time before the Void.

So yeah, I am leaning towards the character assassination to make the god of death the next on the killrole. Which fits given there are dev notes that showcase that Grenth was considered to be the god fought during Season 3 / Expansion 2, before Balthazar was settled on.
And that makes me very sad because Grenth is not ever depicted as evil, as his entire point is that there's a neutral view of death. But it seems Grenth will fall into the Christianized view of "god of death and underworld == satan figure == bad guy" like Hades often does.

I'd have to look up that artifact, but there is possibility of ritual gone wrong? Also I mean in Orr we had souls ripped back to Tyria with the Orrian royality and the high priests of the gods, which was a task a reaper had the PC help with reclaiming the soul for the underworld.

Reading up, it does sounds like they were trying to do something with "The Heart of Grenth" and it didn't work.

Quote

Kurzick Ranger: This... can't be what the Durheim artifact was meant to do... Can it? Fresh pain. After all these years.

and

Quote

Kurzick Guard: The Heart of Grenth couldn't save us. And now it's twisting us.

Makes me think they were trying stuff, anything to hold off the Ministry before the Ministry gas-bombed the place and sealed it shut. Pretty sure we've seen other relics used incorrectly and causing a lot of pain too. Could be the Heart of Grenth got corrupted by the void and reacted to bring the souls back into an active state? It's unclear to me ATM.

 

If they do an AMA/questions to players, this could be a good question to throw at them. Why the celestial story got changed. Or however you ping Bobby Stein/devs here lol.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I'd have to look up that artifact, but there is possibility of ritual gone wrong? Also I mean in Orr we had souls ripped back to Tyria with the Orrian royality and the high priests of the gods, which was a task a reaper had the PC help with reclaiming the soul for the underworld.

That was Zhaitan, not Grenth.

4 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Reading up, it does sounds like they were trying to do something with "The Heart of Grenth" and it didn't work.

and

Makes me think they were trying stuff, anything to hold off the Ministry before the Ministry gas-bombed the place and sealed it shut. Pretty sure we've seen other relics used incorrectly and causing a lot of pain too. Could be the Heart of Grenth got corrupted by the void and reacted to bring the souls back into an active state? It's unclear to me ATM.

Combining all the dialogue together sounds to me like the artifact worked as intended, but not as the Kurzicks believed it would - or at least, not as those who weren't the three that were in charge believed it would (e.g., those guards).

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So yeah, I am leaning towards the character assassination to make the god of death the next on the killrole. Which fits given there are dev notes that showcase that Grenth was considered to be the god fought during Season 3 / Expansion 2, before Balthazar was settled on.

Lyssa seems more likely to be next on the killrole then Grenth.

Grenth, at least his Reapers, seemed pretty chill back in core. The Domain of the Lost stuff in PoF, and The Hall of Chain raid, indicates he did in fact just leave along with Kormir, Melandru, and Dwayna. And theres not really been any real content suggesting his return, or turning evil.

Whereas Lyssa has a long established series of callouts stemming back to LWS3, with even the devs pointing out Balthazar's unique exclusion of Lyssa when damning the other gods.

Though Grenth turning away from the other gods would make some sense given that he was half mortal, and born on Tyria, giving him more of a connection to the world then the other gods besides Lyssa, who was noted the be the one closest to mortals.

Edited August 25, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Malus.2184]

21 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Where is the lie?

"I will show you beauty of the likes you will never see again."

Nothing she said was a lie, they just mistook the dream/vision was being true.

That's the definition of a lie by omission (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission). If you've no idea what a lie of omission is then you're so hard going to be taken for a ride at some point.

[Malus.2184]

21 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Was it though? We got the parables from scattered across Orr, not in the scriptures of Lyssa. Nothing says the parable was part of the official church's lessons.

Sections of it is found within the Cathedral of Lyssa. Expressing "we don't know" is huffing the copium so hard.

The alternative is that someone snuck into the submerged ruins and planted the texts. And that is a ludicrous scenario to even contemplate.

[Malus.2184]

9 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I want to believe that, however the fact they also added an artifact of Grenth that's keeping several Kurzicks imprisoned as undead in the Echovald is a bit... Iffy. The artifact is twisted by Void, but that's only a recent development - so it would have been trapping the souls there for a long time before the Void.

Grenth has no ability to make undeads, nor a desire to do so. When a soul gets made into an undead Grenth no longer has any control over that soul; so it would make sense if he imprisoned them since he would be able to do FA to stop them otherwise.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Malus.2184 said:

Sections of it is found within the Cathedral of Lyssa. Expressing "we don't know" is huffing the copium so hard.

The alternative is that someone snuck into the submerged ruins and planted the texts. And that is a ludicrous scenario to even contemplate.

The Cathedral of Lyssa is in Malchor's Leap. Siren's Landing has the reliquaries which were protected while Orr stood and humans weren't allowed in the region... Which is yet another massive lore inconsistency with that map, given that despite this being stated, that there's no records of the reliquaries in any human record and the network of Abaddon statues functioned as a barrier against intruders, the Orrian royalty knows a ton of stuff about the reliquaries.

But even so, the scattered tablets of these parables neither shows official canon from the church nor are they objectively evil actions by the gods, let alone truthful actions once taken by them.

58 minutes ago, Malus.2184 said:

Grenth has no ability to make undeads, nor a desire to do so. When a soul gets made into an undead Grenth no longer has any control over that soul; so it would make sense if he imprisoned them since he would be able to do FA to stop them otherwise.

Yeah, no, that's blatantly false. Dhuum was the one who had no love for undead. Grenth was the one who allowed undead to exist and his first recorded words as gods were litereally this:

Follow where I lead, come whence I call, and the rotted corpses of the dead will be yours to control.

So the idea that Grenth has no ability to make undead is blatantly false since it is through his teachings and allowance that necromancers make undead traditionally.

Not that undead is a naturally negative thing either, but most undead by Necromancers serving Grenth are mindless shambling corpses, not trapped souls.

[The Greyhawk.9107]

16 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

  I want to believe that, however the fact they also added an artifact of Grenth that's keeping several Kurzicks imprisoned as undead in the Echovald is a bit... Iffy. The artifact is twisted by Void, but that's only a recent development - so it would have been trapping the souls there for a long time before the Void.

So yeah, I am leaning towards the character assassination to make the god of death the next on the killrole. Which fits given there are dev notes that showcase that Grenth was considered to be the god fought during Season 3 / Expansion 2, before Balthazar was settled on.
And that makes me very sad because Grenth is not ever depicted as evil, as his entire point is that there's a neutral view of death. But it seems Grenth will fall into the Christianized view of "god of death and underworld == satan figure == bad guy" like Hades often does.

Not inclined in the least to think anyone at Anet that might be gunning for Grenth is doing it for Christian reasons.  I'd be enormously surprised if there were enough people at that company that would consider themselves religious much less Christian to fill up an airport van.

[draxynnic.3719]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:58 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except, again, this ignores that this is a totally new ability, gained only after Kralk's death, and Taimi even calls out how she hasn't been able to duplicate the readings shes getting in the lab.

Your argument here only works if you assume that the Asura are just SO DUMB that... the fundamental way by which Primordus gets more magic was unknown to them, despite them spending the last 200+ years studying Primordus and its minions, not to mention all the knowledge they got from Rata Novus, as well as their studies on Ember Bay.

Occam's razor leads that the simplest explanation is the right one. That this previously unknown new power, which only manifested after Kralk died, and is similar to Kralks own, was inherited from Kralk, as the game had previously established the dragons inheriting the powers of the others when they die. Similar to the mists portal Jormag suddenly gained the ability to use on his own after Kralk's death.

Hell even the wiki points this out

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus#Powers

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Primordus#cite_note-28

You know the wiki isn't exactly being written by lore experts, right?

 

If you look at the actual quote, it's states that the feedback loop is amplified by Kralkatorrik's death, not something that's new. So he got something from it, but it's not a new ability.

On 8/25/2022 at 5:58 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

 

There's really nothing suggesting that this is how dragon minion creation works.

Yes, there is.

It's the explanation from ArenaNet back in the day for why most Risen, especially those found outside of Orr, are near-mindless automatons. Magic is required for intelligence, and the dragons are generally frugal about how much magic they're going to invest into a minion that is basically mass cannon fodder. So when most minions are corrupted, the dragon drains out all the magic from that minion beyond the bare minimum needed for it to recognise and attack enemies, in order to invest more magic into other minions or increasing their own personal power.

We see this in action with, say, the "Svanir" icebrood in Season 3. They're stupid because Jormag doesn't need them to be smart unless they're a leader.

The corollary to that is that if a dragon (or its champion, if the dragon is still in the dozing stage) wants smarter and/or more magically powerful minions, it needs to invest magic into doing so. Which means that the dragon itself has less contained within its own body. The magic invested in minions is still under the dragon's control (or the Dragonvoid's in the case of Soo-Won), but it's not contributing to their own power.

And this probably goes double in the case of minions that are mostly created directly by magic, like destroyers and voidspawn, rather than corrupted from living creatures.

On 8/25/2022 at 5:58 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is also incorrect. Taimi explicitly calls out that Jormag and Primordus are at equal power in the very first DRM. The first half of IBS was Jormag trying to play catch up to Primordus, and then Champions as them trying to stay on top of each other.

Remember, we know distance affects how much of the magic the other Elder Dragons get when one dies. Jormag was the most far off of the Elder Dragons(sans Soo-Won) and thus got the lesser amount of magic from Zhaitan and Mordremoth's deaths.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Response_Mission:_Metrica_Province

 

Taimi is also obviously biased in that instance, and she doesn't exactly have the ability to take direct readings of both. Jormag had just awakened, Primordus was still in the "stirring but needing more magic to fully wake" state, like Jormag was for most of IBS. One being just over the threshold while the other is just below could make them appear close enough for Taimi to consider them equal, especially if she's trying to present the argument that Primordus is the bigger threat, but unless Primordus just requires a higher threshold than Jormag, he had to be just a little bit weaker at the time.

[draxynnic.3719]

5 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Not inclined in the least to think anyone at Anet that might be gunning for Grenth is doing it for Christian reasons.  I'd be enormously surprised if there were enough people at that company that would consider themselves religious much less Christian to fill up an airport van.

I don't think people have to identify as Christian to be affected by the cultural background of certain characteristics being associated with evil.

The change to Hai Jii's story may have been a mistake, but even if it is, it's concerning that it wasn't picked up, since that implies there's someone at ArenaNet who didn't realise it contradicts Grenth's characterisation (unless it's a deliberate unreliable narrator). Grenth's whole thing, which motivated his overthrow of Dhuum, is that while he's not really good, he's very big on justice. Essentially a Lawful Neutral type who'll punish those who deserve it without mercy, but only if they deserve it, and will grant a suitable afterlife to those who've earned that. (Well, until the gods decided to abandon their domains, anyway).

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

6 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Not inclined in the least to think anyone at Anet that might be gunning for Grenth is doing it for Christian reasons.  I'd be enormously surprised if there were enough people at that company that would consider themselves religious much less Christian to fill up an airport van.

You misunderstood what I meant there. I meant that the western culture is so flooded with Christian beliefs and viewpoints due to its domination over the past two millennia that by sheer osmosis a lot of viewpoints get merged into common belief, especially media. Hades always being villainized is a prime example of this, despite the fact that in Greek mythos he was one of the most chill gods; meanwhile, Zeus and Apollo as gods of sky and sun are treated often in media as wonderful guys - even villainizing Hera to make Zeus' adultry seem reasonable.

You don't have to be Christian to be influenced by its presence in the culture - either directly or indirectly. Disney's Hercules, DC's Wonder Woman (esp. the DCAU), the video game Titan Quest, Clash of the Titans (2010 version), and the Percy Jackson books/movies are all media off the top of my head that's influenced by this perception.

Hades is god of death and the underworld? Well, clearly that means he's evil!
Grenth is god of death and the underworld? Well, clearly that means he's evil!

Edited August 26, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think people have to identify as Christian to be affected by the cultural background of certain characteristics being associated with evil.

The change to Hai Jii's story may have been a mistake, but even if it is, it's concerning that it wasn't picked up, since that implies there's someone at ArenaNet who didn't realise it contradicts Grenth's characterisation (unless it's a deliberate unreliable narrator). Grenth's whole thing, which motivated his overthrow of Dhuum, is that while he's not really good, he's very big on justice. Essentially a Lawful Neutral type who'll punish those who deserve it without mercy, but only if they deserve it, and will grant a suitable afterlife to those who've earned that. (Well, until the gods decided to abandon their domains, anyway).

The sheer fact that the gods were perfectly fine with abandoning Tyira to its seemingly inevitable doom, without making any real attempt to help, or even warn, humanity, who had been worshiping them for thousands of years, about the impending Elder Dragon invasion, or having done anything(that we know about) to actually take humans ANYWHERE else to save them, really kinda debunks the idea any of them cared about noble concepts like justice, or fairness.

Grenth in particular not only made no attempt to put anyone in charge of the Underworld to keep the souls flowing properly before he left, but also made no attempt to do something about Dhuum to keep him sealed permanently. Instead he just left, leaving everyone else to pick up the pieces of his operation, and effectively just giving the whole place the bird on the way out.

The gods did what they felt was convenient for them at the time, whatever that may be at that moment. Even if "convenience" for them amounts to being complicit in the attempted planetary genocide caused by the Elder Dragons, or letting older evil gods possibly escape to wreak havoc.

Balthazar, and possibly Lyssa(or at least half of her), are the only ones that could be considered righteous for their attempts to help Tyria. Though Balthazar getting betrayed by his follow gods drove him to a dark place that warped his goal into something else entirely.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Taimi is also obviously biased in that instance, and she doesn't exactly have the ability to take direct readings of both. Jormag had just awakened, Primordus was still in the "stirring but needing more magic to fully wake" state, like Jormag was for most of IBS. One being just over the threshold while the other is just below could make them appear close enough for Taimi to consider them equal, especially if she's trying to present the argument that Primordus is the bigger threat, but unless Primordus just requires a higher threshold than Jormag, he had to be just a little bit weaker at the time.

This is just pure handwavium. Taimi built a machine that was able to magically beam Primordus' and Jormag's power across the planet to kill each other back in LWS3, despite having never been anywhere close to where Jormag is, and currently has access to Aurene, and Elder Dragon who can actually tell where the dragons are, some idea of what they're doing, and what their power levels are. There's nothing to contradict the idea that Primordus' pre-awkening, wasn't as strong as Jormag was after having awoken.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

You know the wiki isn't exactly being written by lore experts, right?

If you look at the actual quote, it's states that the feedback loop is amplified by Kralkatorrik's death, not something that's new. So he got something from it, but it's not a new ability.

If an ability is so weak that its not detectable in over 200 years, and only becomes actually useful, and usable, after getting ANOTHER power from another elder Dragons, you effectively did get another power.

But this is just trying to skirt around the original point that started this conversation, that Prmordus and Jormag "obviously" didn't get enough power from Kralk's death to unlock new abilities or w/e. Which is just demonstrably false, as shown above. Not only did they did get enough to mutate abilities, but Primordus got enough from Kralk and Balthazar to cause his body to change shape, as previously shown also.

8 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Yes, there is.

This isn't what the conversation was about. We were talking about spending magic to make minions affecting the Elder Dragon's size. There's nothing to indicate the Elder Dragon spend much of thier magic(which again is stated to be at or even above the level of the Gods) to actually affect their size in any noticeable way.

Your entire argument also boiled down to intelligence, which was never brought up. No one made mention of the Destroyers getting smarter, only stronger, something else entirely. So this is a complete straw man.

Edited August 26, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[The Greyhawk.9107]

12 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

I don't think people have to identify as Christian to be affected by the cultural background of certain characteristics being associated with evil.

The change to Hai Jii's story may have been a mistake, but even if it is, it's concerning that it wasn't picked up, since that implies there's someone at ArenaNet who didn't realise it contradicts Grenth's characterisation (unless it's a deliberate unreliable narrator). Grenth's whole thing, which motivated his overthrow of Dhuum, is that while he's not really good, he's very big on justice. Essentially a Lawful Neutral type who'll punish those who deserve it without mercy, but only if they deserve it, and will grant a suitable afterlife to those who've earned that. (Well, until the gods decided to abandon their domains, anyway).

 

11 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You misunderstood what I meant there. I meant that the western culture is so flooded with Christian beliefs and viewpoints due to its domination over the past two millennia that by sheer osmosis a lot of viewpoints get merged into common belief, especially media. Hades always being villainized is a prime example of this, despite the fact that in Greek mythos he was one of the most chill gods; meanwhile, Zeus and Apollo as gods of sky and sun are treated often in media as wonderful guys - even villainizing Hera to make Zeus' adultry seem reasonable.

You don't have to be Christian to be influenced by its presence in the culture - either directly or indirectly. Disney's Hercules, DC's Wonder Woman (esp. the DCAU), the video game Titan Quest, Clash of the Titans (2010 version), and the Percy Jackson books/movies are all media off the top of my head that's influenced by this perception.

Hades is god of death and the underworld? Well, clearly that means he's evil!
Grenth is god of death and the underworld? Well, clearly that means he's evil!

I understand all this quite well, and I admit I should have been a bit clearer in my previous comment, but the thing is that I don't want to spark a religious and/or political debate so I'm trying to be careful with my words. My point is that I don't think that much if not most of the current batch of writers, not just in ArenaNet, but throughout much of Western media are the types that are going to allow themselves to be influenced by Western culture's Judeo-Christian roots and hegemony, or at least as little as possible.  The types that are real big on the phrase "Subverting Your Expectations" (even if they're actually kitten at doing so).

Maybe I'm off base, but I still think that other avenues should be explored first regarding why this possible character assassination of Grenth is occurring.

Edited August 26, 2022 by The Greyhawk.9107

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

2 hours ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I understand all this quite well, and I admit I should have been a bit clearer in my previous comment, but the thing is that I don't want to spark a religious and/or political debate so I'm trying to be careful with my words. My point is that I don't think that much if not most of the current batch of writers, not just in ArenaNet, but throughout much of Western media are the types that are going to allow themselves to be influenced by Western culture's Judeo-Christian roots and hegemony, or at least as little as possible.  The types that are real big on the phrase "Subverting Your Expectations" (even if they're actually kitten at doing so).

Maybe I'm off base, but I still think that other avenues should be explored first regarding why this possible character assassination of Grenth is occurring.

I don't think it has anything to do with "subverting expectations" or "character assassination". I think Anet, much like the writers of many long lasting series, look back at their older work and realize that much of it isn't very well written, and was written very childishly, and so take steps to correct it.

GW1, and much of early GW2, writing had a lot of these issues

• The human gods were "LE GOOD GUYS! SO VIRTUOUS! MUCH WOW!"
• Bangar was "LE BAD CHARR WHO JUST HATES PEOPLE! MUCH BAD!"
• Smodur was "LE GOOD CHARR! DOING THINGS BECAUSE MUCH GOOD! YES!"
• Asgeir was "LE GREAT HERO! HE HURT LE DRAGON! MUCH HEROIC!"

And looking back on it things are very rarely, if ever, that cut and dry. There's this thing in real life, and good storytelling, called nuance, and concepts like "history being written by the victors to favor themselves". You can apply these things to old writing, while changing very little, to add a lot of depth where there was previously little, if any.

• Bangar and Ryland were heavily pushed as being victims of the Charr's incredibly broken, and toxic, societal structure, that heavily de-"humanizes" individuals, and individual life, in favor of the collective military culture. Bangar was doubly a victim of the ever real fear of seeing everything his species stood for, and lived for, for untold years, being torn down around him as the world was changing to one where the Charr didn't need to war to survive.
• Smodur still believed in everything he pushed for in regards to reforms for the the Charr, but was doing so not become of some uncharacteristically, and unbelievable, altruistic motivation, but because he believed it put him in a better place of power in the face of the changing world.
• Asgeir was still a great hero who fought Jormag, but his return with Jormag's tooth wasn't some great triumph out of a Superman comic book story. It was a defeat, after he gave in into the pain and exhaustion, and allowed doubt to enter his mind, giving up a fight he possibly could've won.
• This too applies to the Elder Dragons, who first started off as being just bland "forces of nature". Then, with Mordremoth, they mutated into one dimensional, mustache twirling, comic book villains. Then with Kralk, Jormag, and Soo-Won, mutated again into more sympathetic(not necessarily good mind you), victims of the torment, and pain, of an unknowably old cycle originally created to try to save the world from the dragonvoid, and from Soo-Won's desire to not be alone.

The human gods are really no different. Older lore tried to push the human gods as these fantastic paragons of ideals, and justice. There was very little suggesting the gods, outside of Abbadon, ever did anything really "bad", or had these massive systemic character flaws. But the existence of Abbadon, and his actions, along with those of Dhuum, and Menzies, really blows that entire idea out of the water. If they were that broken, why would any of the other gods be any different?

A big part of the premise of Guild Wars 2 even supported this idea. Good people do not knowingly, and intentionally, just let massive planetary genocide occur without attempting to help prevent, or at least warn the people of its incoming nature. Yet the human gods did just that. Even if they didn't take to the battlefield themselves, the knowledge and power they could have provided in support to the mortal races would've saved thousands, tens of thousands, of lives, and very likely ended the fight against the dragons years ago. Even if the gods did believe that humanity and the other races would triumph against the Elder Dragons, when you're someone like Grenth, who rules over a pretty important part of the Mists involving all the dead souls, one would think you would take enough time to set up a replacement, and deal with big issues like Dhuum, instead of just yeeting out of the picture one day.

Everything the gods have done in regards to the dragons has always indicated they really just gave ZERO ***** about humanity, or their responsibilities. Abbadon's fall. Balthazar's attempt to do the right thing, being betrayed by his follow gods, and the resulting fury it caused him. Grenth just seemingly not caring about the dead after his exodus, despite that being his whole "thing". Lyssa doing.... whatever it is shes doing. Kormir trying to come off as dispassionate, and disconnected, in PoF, but having lingering attachments, and it being implied(or outright stated) she left behind the Sunspear Scriptures to be found as a source of inspiration. All show the gods are not these one dimensional monoliths of deities older GW tried to project them as.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Kalavier.1097]

On 8/25/2022 at 3:13 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That was Zhaitan, not Grenth.

Combining all the dialogue together sounds to me like the artifact worked as intended, but not as the Kurzicks believed it would - or at least, not as those who weren't the three that were in charge believed it would (e.g., those guards).

That was what I meant. Zhaitan rose, and managed to apparently nab souls back to the world.

Though a thing that popped into my mind is, what if this is a foe-fire situation? The foefire is linked directly to the swords gifted by Balthazar, whether it's a ritual is an ability of the weapons.

What if this Heart of Grenth (I admit, last time I was in that dungeon it was bugged and didn't reset, so I just walked through and got treasure chests) was read as a tool that could help turn the tide against overwhelming foes, but in reality is a "Yer a ghost now." the difference being Grenth's allowed them to notice that time actually did pass, and when defeated noticed it wasn't the Ministry? From dialogue I've read it sounds like nothing is directly gone against the Heart of Grenth, but the ghosts implore the player to go stop the corruption at the source to halt further corruption of the void/allow it to be cleansed?

On 8/25/2022 at 5:04 PM, Malus.2184 said:

That's the definition of a lie by omission (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_by_omission). If you've no idea what a lie of omission is then you're so hard going to be taken for a ride at some point.

Again, what lie, Omission or not?

Lyssa quite literally told them "I will show you beauty you will NEVER SEE AGAIN." And the soldiers went into battle full of joy and hope and fought with all their might for the future they had seen after the war. It is not Lyssa's fault they did not listen to what she said.

If I tell you, "Go into that room, and you can never see it again in the game." and you go in, leave, then try to go back in to find it locked, did I lie to you?

21 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

You misunderstood what I meant there. I meant that the western culture is so flooded with Christian beliefs and viewpoints due to its domination over the past two millennia that by sheer osmosis a lot of viewpoints get merged into common belief, especially media. Hades always being villainized is a prime example of this, despite the fact that in Greek mythos he was one of the most chill gods; meanwhile, Zeus and Apollo as gods of sky and sun are treated often in media as wonderful guys - even villainizing Hera to make Zeus' adultry seem reasonable.

You don't have to be Christian to be influenced by its presence in the culture - either directly or indirectly. Disney's Hercules, DC's Wonder Woman (esp. the DCAU), the video game Titan Quest, Clash of the Titans (2010 version), and the Percy Jackson books/movies are all media off the top of my head that's influenced by this perception.

Hades is god of death and the underworld? Well, clearly that means he's evil!
Grenth is god of death and the underworld? Well, clearly that means he's evil!

Reminds me of the thing I saw with Medusa a while back, which was that she was always a monster and not a victim of the gods. It was paired with "The Greek gods weren't nearly as huge assholes as people think"

15 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The sheer fact that the gods were perfectly fine with abandoning Tyira to its seemingly inevitable doom, without making any real attempt to help, or even warn, humanity, who had been worshiping them for thousands of years, about the impending Elder Dragon invasion, or having done anything(that we know about) to actually take humans ANYWHERE else to save them, really kinda debunks the idea any of them cared about noble concepts like justice, or fairness.

The gods did what they felt was convenient for them at the time, whatever that may be at that moment. Even if "convenience" for them amounts to being complicit in the attempted planetary genocide caused by the Elder Dragons.

Balthazar, and possibly Lyssa(or at least half of her), are the only ones that could be considered righteous for their attempts to help Tyria. Though Balthazar getting betrayed by his follow gods drove him to a dark place that warped his goal into something else entierly.

If you believe it, the one book in EoD outright implies/states that the gods left to find a new world to relocate humanity to.

Also, by the time of Zhaitans rise (and IIRC EoD implies the gods complete departure was more recent toward the times of zhaitan, as in PS a reaper declares he was sent by Grenth, and in Queensdale you have a ghost who talks of giving a request to Grenth to be allowed to watch over her family and farm as a ghost while they live), hell by the time of GW1 the human gods generally didn't directly intervene for... anything. in GW1 Dhuum nearly breaks out and does Grenth stomp in and slap him around? Not really.

Lyssa, as I recall, openly mocked Kormir for her staying behind a bit longer to watch over humans. Why would she be considered righteous?

 

This also ignores the stated reasons for the gods not engaging in the conflict. They are creatures made of pure magic, fighting creatures who CONSUME magic. And that they (as a group) were more concerned over the fallout of such engagements, of the likes when abaddon waged war against them and the Crystal Sea became the Crystal Desert.

 

edit: About Aesgir, we cannot take everything we've seen at face value. Yes, according to him he was at the end of his strength, but Jormag suddenly offers him a deal to get away (and then still attacked the four spirits of the wild when they stayed to hold the line, and Jormag corrupted them)

Bjora marches is filled with "Aren't you tired" So Jormag may have been passively trying to convince Aesgir that he was weak, at the end of his strength. He had already knocked the fang off the dragon, and instead of killing the Norn, suddenly he gets an offer. The idea of Jormag using the whispers/convincing a foe to leave before being able to hurt it is nothing new. Look at the Drakkar fight in the open world. It starts with "Jhavi is wrong, I'm trying to help. Stop pushing forward"

How much of what Aesgir wrote and left that area with is actually real, and what was manipulation? We cannot tell.

 

Also about Smodur, I have never gotten that whole "He is good guy doing things because good". That's a vast simplification of things. To me he was a leader who understood war with humans was just pointless at that point, the Charr had won Ascalon back. No need to waste resources on an endless siege when they can be put elsewhere.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

If you believe it, the one book in EoD outright implies/states that the gods left to find a new world to relocate humanity to.

I've talked, at length, about this book before. But simply, even back in PoF when this book was introduced, it didn't add up

1. There's no proof the guy claiming to get a vision from Kormir actually got one. If I had a nickle for every time someone said they got a vision from god... well... I'd be a rich man.
2. If Kormir actually knew of such a plan... why didn't she mention it when we talked to her? Instead of just going full on "you're on you own with Balthazar and the Dragons! Bye!" You think she would have said something about "yeah we plan to save humanity from the Elder Dragons, just try to hold out a little bit longer kay!"
3. In addition to that, if the gods had such a plan at all... why didn't they tell ANYONE ELSE? Instead of creating years of religious confusion by their silence and inaction, instead of just leaving close followers like the Druids of Melandru, Desmina for Grenth, the spirits who follow Kormir in her "Sanctum", in complete darkness by just suddenly leaving one day, instead of causing even the dead like Gwen to call the gods out at abandoning them, you think they would have been like "na fams, we got your back on this"
4. EoD debunked the whole notion since we had a dragonvoid apocalypse stretching from the Jade Sea, as far north as the Blood Keep, and the gods were complete no shows. If they had any intention of saving anyone that was the time, and they didn't.

There's really nothing to support the idea that the entire book wasn't just one guy drinking a giant pitcher of copium, and everything to support the idea the gods simply just don't care.

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

hell by the time of GW1 the human gods generally didn't directly intervene for... anything. in GW1 Dhuum nearly breaks out and does Grenth stomp in and slap him around? Not really.

Which really just reinforces my point. The gods are beyond negligent, bordering on uncaring. Same issue with Abbadon in GW1. Even if they needed Kormir to take in Abbadon's energy, they still could've done a lot more to help her get there intact.

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Lyssa, as I recall, openly mocked Kormir for her staying behind a bit longer to watch over humans. Why would she be considered righteous?

Because theres been a lot of hints, even from the devs, that something is up with Lyssa. When Balthazar is getting beat by the player at the end of PoF he specifically curses every other god by name except Lyssa, and the devs have confirmed this is intentional.  Its VERY interesting when you combine it with

• Balthazar was using Lyssa's Mirror to disguise himself during LWS3
• Kormir's oddly specific call out of Lyssa in PoF
• The legendary item lore for "Vision" specifically calling out Lyssa's possible anger in regards to Balthazar's death
• The "Garden of Lyssa" POI in New Kaineng city with an NPC trying to talk to Lyssa saying they heard about Balthazar's death
• The Orrian history scrolls mentioning Lyssa was the god most connected to the mortals, and the other gods having to command her to come to Arah after it was built
• Old writer comments about wanting to see what it would be like to have Lyssa take over a city and bury it in illusions
• The fact Anet has said the god's story isn't over yet, but we also know Balthazar is dead, and Kormir, Grenth, and Melandru, are 100% gone, really only leaving Lyssa and Dwayna to really work with

Like, if they really plan to continue the god plot, Lyssa is the #1 contender for it based off of what is many years of direct call outs.

Lyssa was the god most connected to mortal, and the one that cared about them the most. Se very easily could've just been BSing Kormir and the others when she voted to leave, while secretly having a plan to stay behind and do something. Or, given that Lyssa is often depicted as two people, they could be split about what to do. With one leaving, and the other staying.

And like, we know Anet is making Xpack 4. Besides wrapping up the god plot theres no currently established/hinted at story that would be xpack worthy at this point. Barring some sudden arrival of a giant "Burning Legion" like army of Mist Demons from the Far Mists, all the other remaining open plots are LW sized. Most of them not even a full season sized.

8 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

This also ignores the stated reasons for the gods not engaging in the conflict. They are creatures made of pure magic, fighting creatures who CONSUME magic. And that they (as a group) were more concerned over the fallout of such engagements, of the likes when abaddon waged war against them and the Crystal Sea became the Crystal Desert.

Which I already addressed in my previous post. There's a lot the gods could have done to help besides just entering the field and fighting themselves.

Edited August 27, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Malus.2184]

On 8/27/2022 at 11:40 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Again, what lie, Omission or not?

Lyssa quite literally told them "I will show you beauty you will NEVER SEE AGAIN." And the soldiers went into battle full of joy and hope and fought with all their might for the future they had seen after the war. It is not Lyssa's fault they did not listen to what she said.

The one she told. Pertinent info. "You might lose, however, I can show you pleasant sights." By making the convinced they would win, by omitting that pertinent informantion, they The people who die in that parable learnt nothing about the difference between truth and illussions, and the ones who were intended to read it would only knoiw the difference between truth and illusions if they already possessed the critical thinking abilities to comprehend that what the parable told was in no way the difference between them.

The parable shows as much about the difference between truth and illusion as the song "Ironic" does about irony. 

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The one she told. Pertinent info. "You might lose, however, I can show you pleasant sights." By making the convinced they would win, by omitting that pertinent informantion, they The people who die in that parable learnt nothing about the difference between truth and illussions, and the ones who were intended to read it would only knoiw the difference between truth and illusions if they already possessed the critical thinking abilities to comprehend that what the parable told was in no way the difference between them.

The parable shows as much about the difference between truth and illusion as the song "Ironic" does about irony. 

Your point was she was objectively lying to soldiers who die.

At no point in the parable does she  tell them they will win. She infact, literally tells them they will never see the beauty in the vision.

There is no "You might lose" There is only "You will see beauty you will never see again if you share some food with me"

As konig said, she gave doomed soldiers a bit of joy when they had none.  I think you are reading too hard into her relationship with humanity or people from this one parable?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

As konig said, she gave doomed soldiers a bit of joy when they had none.  I think you are reading too hard into her relationship with humanity or people from this one parable?

Double so since nearly every other source of info on Lyssa is basically 'she loved humans far more than any of the other gods did'.