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What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?


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On 8/28/2022 at 11:20 PM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Your point was she was objectively lying to soldiers who die.

At no point in the parable does she  tell them they will win. She infact, literally tells them they will never see the beauty in the vision.

There is no "You might lose" There is only "You will see beauty you will never see again if you share some food with me"

As konig said, she gave doomed soldiers a bit of joy when they had none.  I think you are reading too hard into her relationship with humanity or people from this one parable?

My point was that she lied. Lying by omision is still lying even though people wil lrefer to it as saying something "technically correct."

You're choosing the oddest hill to die on instead of just admitting to yourself that Lyssa has few of the qualities that we would put into a benevolent god.

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Not really "lore" related, but the sheer fact Charr run on all 4 feet.  When a species evolves to walking upright (2 legs), those evolutionary changes aren't something you can just ignore.  It would literally be the same if human characters in game ran on all 4 when not in combat.  It makes NO sense and looks dumb given their advances.

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6 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

Not really "lore" related, but the sheer fact Charr run on all 4 feet.  When a species evolves to walking upright (2 legs), those evolutionary changes aren't something you can just ignore.  It would literally be the same if human characters in game ran on all 4 when not in combat.  It makes NO sense and looks dumb given their advances.

I mean, both chimps and gorillas can walk on two legs, but frequently use their hands when running.

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7 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I mean, both chimps and gorillas can walk on two legs, but frequently use their hands when running.

But they are several evolutionary steps behind.  Kind of in the middle of walking upright (humans, charr) and running on all 4 (cats, dogs, etc).  It makes no sense to have charr run on all 4 at their current level of evolution.

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5 minutes ago, Ubi.4136 said:

But they are several evolutionary steps behind.  Kind of in the middle of walking upright (humans, charr) and running on all 4 (cats, dogs, etc).  It makes no sense to have charr run on all 4 at their current level of evolution.

Talking about real world evolution in a series with spontaneously forming dragons, who asexually make other dragons completely different from them, who are also giant balls of magic that are hallow on the inside, and/or made of magically moving magma, ice, flesh, etc. doesn't really seem like it makes sense to do now don't it?

Most things in GW2's setting dont make a lot of sense evolution wise, they just exist because "fantasy races".

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4 hours ago, Ubi.4136 said:

But they are several evolutionary steps behind.  Kind of in the middle of walking upright (humans, charr) and running on all 4 (cats, dogs, etc).  It makes no sense to have charr run on all 4 at their current level of evolution.

That's not how evolution works, it's not a straightforward thing with levels. If what Charr traits are like now survived into their current state that's all that is needed. Not even getting into the whole fact that it is a fantasy setting. 

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19 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

My point was that she lied. Lying by omision is still lying even though people wil lrefer to it as saying something "technically correct."

You're choosing the oddest hill to die on instead of just admitting to yourself that Lyssa has few of the qualities that we would put into a benevolent god.

Is Lyssa perfect? No. But the examples of her being nasty is... One Parable.

A single parable, in which she was entirely truthful to the people she spoke to, which you are saying is a lie. Lyssa did not tell the soldiers they would win the war. Lyssa did not say that the vision was their future. The soldiers thinking such is entirely on them.

You are appearing to stand on the hill that she did this out of malice or desire to cause harm. But that's not supported by the Parable.

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Not a lore mistake, but has anyone ever came to the same conclusion as me? That the gods have no idea what they're doing? If you watch Facing The Truth again and pay attention to what Kormir is saying, she says that the dragons are beyond the gods, that they're a raw primal force without equal and that if Balthazar takes them on, with or without their defeat or his, that the world is done for.

Now this is where my BS meter starts getting in the red. Everyone said that if you kill a dragon, it upsets the flow of magic and we're all cooked. But we killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. If it wasn't for Aurene, the other dragons would have gotten that magic and possibly woken up to stomp around and FUBAR everything. But no one is for sure, because this was uncharted territory. Only the Mursaat had the guts to try, but they failed because the other races bawked and didn't help. So we had literally had no clue how it would play out if we killed a dragon. 

But somehow the gods did and didn't bother to clue us in. When the dragons would have eventually woken up, what were the gods going to do? Let us find out for ourselves? "Hey guys... sorry about dropping the ball on telling you about the magic eating monsters under the world. We would help, but they're just a smidgeon beyond us, and if we try to fight them, we're going to die. So we're gonna peace out and leave you to it. Thanks for dealing with Dhuum, Menzies and Abaddon for us!!"

"And remember, we love you.... but remember to pray to us too, or we'll hand out some of that wrath from waaaaaay over yonder... in whatever realm we decide to go to... when we get there."

I just get this idea that the gods are gutless and don't want to fight, because they're a giant group of pansy's. They act all tough when they don't have any opposition. But the first time things get rough, they're nowhere to be seen. I think Kormir stayed behind to play clean-up after the god's mistakes and try to justify their leaving on this weak notion that they're doing it to save us from further annihilation. I mean if I'm dead, how can I care about everyone else and the world dead along side me? I'm freakin' dead!!! 

"OMG, the dragons will kill us so hard, we'll die to death!!"

This is either bad writing or the god's are just cowards and stupid to boot. Either way, the gods don't need to come back. We've proven that we can kill dragons and AND gods and if they come back and start some crap, Aurene will turn what's left of their little esoteric gaggle into an all you can eat buffet.
 

Edited by Shivan.9438
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31 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Not a lore mistake, but has anyone ever came to the same conclusion as me? That the gods have no idea what they're doing? If you watch Facing The Truth again and pay attention to what Kormir is saying, she says that the dragons are beyond the gods, that they're a raw primal force without equal and that if Balthazar takes them on, with or without their defeat or his, that the world is done for.

Now this is where my BS meter starts getting in the red. Everyone said that if you kill a dragon, it upsets the flow of magic and we're all cooked. But we killed Zhaitan and Mordremoth. If it wasn't for Aurene, the other dragons would have gotten that magic and possibly woken up to stomp around and FUBAR everything. But no one is for sure, because this was uncharted territory. Only the Mursaat had the guts to try, but they failed because the other races bawked and didn't help. So we had literally had no clue how it would play out if we killed a dragon. 

But somehow the gods did and didn't bother to clue us in. When the dragons would have eventually woken up, what were the gods going to do? Let us find out for ourselves? "Hey guys... sorry about dropping the ball on telling you about the magic eating monsters under the world. We would help, but they're just a smidgeon beyond us, and if we try to fight them, we're going to die. So we're gonna peace out and leave you to it. Thanks for dealing with Dhuum, Menzies and Abaddon for us!!"

"And remember, we love you.... but remember to pray to us too, or we'll hand out some of that wrath from waaaaaay over yonder... in whatever realm we decide to go to... when we get there."

I just get this idea that the gods are gutless and don't want to fight, because they're a giant group of pansy's. They act all tough when they don't have any opposition. But the first time things get rough, they're nowhere to be seen. I think Kormir stayed behind to play clean-up after the god's mistakes and try to justify their leaving on this weak notion that they're doing it to save us from further annihilation. I mean if I'm dead, how can I care about everyone else and the world dead along side me? I'm freakin' dead!!! 

"OMG, the dragons will kill us so hard, we'll die to death!!"

This is either bad writing or the god's are just cowards and stupid to boot. Either way, the gods don't need to come back. We've proven that we can kill dragons and AND gods and if they come back and start some crap, Aurene will turn what's left of their little esoteric gaggle into an all you can eat buffet.
 

You might want to remember, that fighting among gods caused the Crystal Sea to turn into the Crystal Desert.

If I remember correctly, the point Kormir made was that they don't want another clash of magically super-charged beings and have more devastating cataclysmic changes on Tyria. If the gods had stayed on or close to Tyria, such a confrontation would have been unavoidable.

Also, I think the gods went and searched for yet another world that humanity could migrate to.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You might want to remember, that fighting among gods caused the Crystal Sea to turn into the Crystal Desert.

If I remember correctly, the point Kormir made was that they don't want another clash of magically super-charged beings and have more devastating cataclysmic changes on Tyria. If the gods had stayed on or close to Tyria, such a confrontation would have been unavoidable.

Also, I think the gods went and searched for yet another world that humanity could migrate to.

Which we presumably don't need any more.  Be interesting if and how that gets addressed. 

There is a significant difficultly inherent in writing a world where there are unquestionably real gods, or beings of great power that are seen to be gods, but you still need the mortal hero(es) to be the one(s) to save the day.  Arguably the better route is to not have their existence be a for sure thing unless you're a very good writer and have things planned out well in advanced.  Of course for GW that ship sailed sixteen years ago when Nightfall came out and the existence of the gods was solidified beyond question.

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On 9/2/2022 at 6:02 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

Is Lyssa perfect? No. But the examples of her being nasty is... One Parable.

A single parable, in which she was entirely truthful to the people she spoke to, which you are saying is a lie. Lyssa did not tell the soldiers they would win the war. Lyssa did not say that the vision was their future. The soldiers thinking such is entirely on them.

You are appearing to stand on the hill that she did this out of malice or desire to cause harm. But that's not supported by the Parable.

There are a couple of weays that you can still be entirely truthful while lying though your teeth, theyall include lying by omission. 

And you forget context. The gods are real, if there's a parable that goes against what they standfor  they can explicitly tell the priests to stop spreading that parable. If it was in our world were there were an invisibly sky-daddy with the source of "just-trust-me-bro" then you'd have a point.

And no, the gods are entirely different being, applying our standsards of good, evel, benevolence, and malevolence to them is absurd. I believe this can be best seen in PoF where the gods say one thing about the reason they refuse tio joint he fight so they would reather leave instead, in which case, Tyria would objectively be more fubared than if they got involved, yet, Balthazar's death shows another.

The gods are beings of energy, there's nothing physical about them except of they take a physical form. We weaken Balthazars so he can no longer keep cohesion and he disintegrates to be absorbed up by Kralkatorrik simply by being in the vicinity. Instead of just dying he ceases to exist. The gods would know this, that if they went into battle near the dragons that if they were weakened they would suffer the same fate as Balthazar did.

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2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

You might want to remember, that fighting among gods caused the Crystal Sea to turn into the Crystal Desert.

If I remember correctly, the point Kormir made was that they don't want another clash of magically super-charged beings and have more devastating cataclysmic changes on Tyria. If the gods had stayed on or close to Tyria, such a confrontation would have been unavoidable.

Also, I think the gods went and searched for yet another world that humanity could migrate to.

Also the whole fact of "Beings made of pure, massive amounts of magic facing off against creatures who eat pure magic."

Let's say the god explosion (like hinted at with Abaddon's death in GW1, which was implied to indirectly have started the dragons waking up IIRC) doesn't wreck the local region like Crystal Desert/Desolation was, or Bloodstone Fen. It means the dragon just nommed up all that power and has gotten a huge buff. At worst, you get things like Bloodstone fen with huge magical explosions wrecking regions then getting sucked up into a dragon/god. And we saw what happened to Bloodstone afterwards, even with all the exposed magic from the shockwave getting contained by Balthazar.

Even in Prophecies held the "crystal desert used to be a sea", just that they didn't know what happened and just had legends the gods had raised the land for some reason.

15 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Which we presumably don't need any more.  Be interesting if and how that gets addressed. 

There is a significant difficultly inherent in writing a world where there are unquestionably real gods, or beings of great power that are seen to be gods, but you still need the mortal hero(es) to be the one(s) to save the day.  Arguably the better route is to not have their existence be a for sure thing unless you're a very good writer and have things planned out well in advanced.  Of course for GW that ship sailed sixteen years ago when Nightfall came out and the existence of the gods was solidified beyond question.

I think GW had a decent take on it which was the gods are explicitly real, but started to back off long ago because of things going wrong/being forced to step in and fix things like the bloodstones. So they helped out but had purposefully distanced themselves from being the solution to everything. They sent out blessings, but never directly stepped in barring a few cases.

So they are explicitly real, but they also aren't going to step in and fix your problems for you anymore.

I always loved a long while ago how some people acted as if the gods did a ton of stuff in GW1 vs "them leaving" in GW2, and just replied with "What did they really do in GW1? They were pretty much gone back then too." Then again, some of those people also thought that path of fire should've been Kormir just stepping out, instantly helping rebuild Taimi's machine (and making it work against all dragons) and solving the entire dragon issue immediately.

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2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Also the whole fact of "Beings made of pure, massive amounts of magic facing off against creatures who eat pure magic."

Let's say the god explosion (like hinted at with Abaddon's death in GW1, which was implied to indirectly have started the dragons waking up IIRC) doesn't wreck the local region like Crystal Desert/Desolation was, or Bloodstone Fen. It means the dragon just nommed up all that power and has gotten a huge buff. At worst, you get things like Bloodstone fen with huge magical explosions wrecking regions then getting sucked up into a dragon/god. And we saw what happened to Bloodstone afterwards, even with all the exposed magic from the shockwave getting contained by Balthazar.

Even in Prophecies held the "crystal desert used to be a sea", just that they didn't know what happened and just had legends the gods had raised the land for some reason.

I think GW had a decent take on it which was the gods are explicitly real, but started to back off long ago because of things going wrong/being forced to step in and fix things like the bloodstones. So they helped out but had purposefully distanced themselves from being the solution to everything. They sent out blessings, but never directly stepped in barring a few cases.

So they are explicitly real, but they also aren't going to step in and fix your problems for you anymore.

I always loved a long while ago how some people acted as if the gods did a ton of stuff in GW1 vs "them leaving" in GW2, and just replied with "What did they really do in GW1? They were pretty much gone back then too." Then again, some of those people also thought that path of fire should've been Kormir just stepping out, instantly helping rebuild Taimi's machine (and making it work against all dragons) and solving the entire dragon issue immediately.

I"m not against the "gods stepped back to prevent greater damage" type of narrative: Tolkien did it with the Valar and the Maiar in their war against Morgoth and his servants, a war that resulted in devastation of large swaths of Middle-Earth, including sinking the furthest western regions of the continent.  The Valar afterward took a VERY hands off approach to the affairs of Arda.  But that said, the writers at Anet have been a lot clumsier in using this type of narrative, at least post-Nightfall.  Especially when there are some holes that they've never explained, like why Abaddon's overthrow was so different from Balthazar's, and why no one noticed it happened even from the Mists.  And as others have pointed out, their seeming general incompetency.

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On 8/27/2022 at 4:33 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The sheer fact that the gods were perfectly fine with abandoning Tyira to its seemingly inevitable doom, without making any real attempt to help, or even warn, humanity, who had been worshiping them for thousands of years, about the impending Elder Dragon invasion, or having done anything(that we know about) to actually take humans ANYWHERE else to save them, really kinda debunks the idea any of them cared about noble concepts like justice, or fairness.

Grenth in particular not only made no attempt to put anyone in charge of the Underworld to keep the souls flowing properly before he left, but also made no attempt to do something about Dhuum to keep him sealed permanently. Instead he just left, leaving everyone else to pick up the pieces of his operation, and effectively just giving the whole place the bird on the way out.

The gods did what they felt was convenient for them at the time, whatever that may be at that moment. Even if "convenience" for them amounts to being complicit in the attempted planetary genocide caused by the Elder Dragons, or letting older evil gods possibly escape to wreak havoc.

Balthazar, and possibly Lyssa(or at least half of her), are the only ones that could be considered righteous for their attempts to help Tyria. Though Balthazar getting betrayed by his follow gods drove him to a dark place that warped his goal into something else entirely.

There's been a lot of discussion regarding the gods, but one thing that I haven't seen raised here:

Communication from the gods doesn't seem to be a 'light up the sky so everyone sees it' affair. Instead, they choose a few select messengers, and it's up to those messengers to spread the word from there. Against the charge of not warning about the dragons, I'd highlight that according to the Movement of the World, the Order of Whispers knew about the dragons well before anyone else did, but were not believed. There's basically two possibilities here: either the Order of Whispers found out directly or indirectly from the gods, or they didn't need the help of the gods to find out. In the latter case, it's likely that the gods knew that the means for humans to find out for themselves was available (the majority of what is known about them in-universe was in the Scroll of the Five True Gods, after all, so maybe that WAS the warning). Don't forget that Glint and the gods are allies, and human mythology even says the gods appointed Glint as Tyria's caretaker before leaving to find other worlds, so "Glint has a plan and she'll inform those who need to know, what they need to know, so we'll leave her to it while we work on Plan B" is actually a valid response from the gods to the situation. Balthazar, by contrast, wanted to upend that plan.

ArenaNet has told us a few things about the mindset of the gods, and there are two things that really stand out:

The first, which is the one that we get metaphorically beaten over the head with, is that as a group the gods believe that interference is only likely to make things worse. YMMV on whether you agree, but if that is what they genuinely believe, then staying out is probably the morally right thing to do until and unless they're in a position to offer a full evacuation.

The second, which has mostly been said out-of-game in interviews and the like but which is compatible with what we see ingame, is that the gods regard humanity as a whole in a similar manner to parents of an adult descendent - they want the descendent to do well and feel bad when bad things happen, but unless it really does come to life or death (with 'death' being extinction of humanity in this case) they want the descendent in question to stand on their own feet and solve their own problems. The gods have empowered humanity with their gifts, as demonstrated by the song and dance at the end of Nightfall, and they have faith that humans will be able to find a way through. And so far? That faith has been well-placed. The dragon issue has been resolved - unless Aurene starts experiencing problems with handling all that magic - and while there's a bit of a cloud over Cantha's future, Kryta, Elona, and even what's left of Ascalon looks to be in a good state for the foreseeable future.

Now, it's pretty clear that, while they have occasionally taken interest in individual humans, on the whole they don't seem to care all that much about the plights of individual humans, and might actually consider a crisis that causes a high degree of suffering to humanity to be a good thing if humanity as a whole comes out stronger and more united on the other side. But the key is that they want the human species to be independent, they don't want humans to be constantly relying on the gods to solve their problems, or perhaps even.

Which might well be an explanation for the 'Garden of the Gods' thing. People have a tendency not to work as hard on solving problems if they know someone else is going to solve it for them, so the gods might not have wanted to make humans too confident in the evacuation plan lest that lull them into a sense of security (that may be misplaced if the gods haven't found a suitable evac site yet). Conversely, having a few such texts out there, even if they aren't believed by the mainstream, means that if the evac plan is triggered, people will know what's happening.

 

On 8/27/2022 at 4:33 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is just pure handwavium. Taimi built a machine that was able to magically beam Primordus' and Jormag's power across the planet to kill each other back in LWS3, despite having never been anywhere close to where Jormag is, and currently has access to Aurene, and Elder Dragon who can actually tell where the dragons are, some idea of what they're doing, and what their power levels are. There's nothing to contradict the idea that Primordus' pre-awkening, wasn't as strong as Jormag was after having awoken.

Taimi didn't build that machine, she bolted extra functionality onto Omadd's machine that she said herself that she didn't fully understand and certainly couldn't rebuild. We have no idea what the precision of Taimi's readings actually were.

There certainly is something to contradict the idea that Primordus pre-awakening wasn't as strong as post-awakening Jormag, and it's a really obvious thing: namely, that Jormag was fully awake and Primordus wasn't, and we know that it's the influx of magic that wakes them up.

But okay. Let's entertain the idea that Primordus and Jormag require different levels of magic to awaken. We've now established that different dragons might respond differently to magic. This could mean that, while dragons grow and shrink depending on how much magic they have, two different dragons might have different sizes despite being evenly matched in magic. Which would then debunk your claim that the size of dragons cannot be linked to the quantity of magic they possess on the basis that Aurene and Soo-Won are relatively small despite having multiple dragons worth of magic. Which, might I remind you, is where this discussion started - you claimed that the varying sizes of the same dragon could not be linked to their magic on the basis that Aurene and Soo-Won are relatively small.

On 8/27/2022 at 4:33 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

If an ability is so weak that its not detectable in over 200 years, and only becomes actually useful, and usable, after getting ANOTHER power from another elder Dragons, you effectively did get another power.

But this is just trying to skirt around the original point that started this conversation, that Prmordus and Jormag "obviously" didn't get enough power from Kralk's death to unlock new abilities or w/e. Which is just demonstrably false, as shown above. Not only did they did get enough to mutate abilities, but Primordus got enough from Kralk and Balthazar to cause his body to change shape, as previously shown also.

Again, Taimi said that it was AMPLIFIED. Words are important. Amplified says that it existed before, but its gotten stronger.

Which could have come from Primordus incorporating Kralkatorrik's resonance abilities to improve the efficiency of the loop, but the precise wording used implies that the ability existed in a weaker state previously. Which makes sense - 'gaining power from destroying things with fire' fits well for Primordus both in terms of theme and in the usual behaviour of his minions to begin with.

On 8/27/2022 at 4:33 AM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This isn't what the conversation was about. We were talking about spending magic to make minions affecting the Elder Dragon's size. There's nothing to indicate the Elder Dragon spend much of thier magic(which again is stated to be at or even above the level of the Gods) to actually affect their size in any noticeable way.

Your entire argument also boiled down to intelligence, which was never brought up. No one made mention of the Destroyers getting smarter, only stronger, something else entirely. So this is a complete straw man.

The intelligence example is brought up because it demonstrates that investing more in minions means less for the dragons - most dragon minions are stupid because the dragon wants to reduce its magic investment per minion. Intelligence is also going to be a factor in power, since it influences how effectively the minion fights and how effectively it uses its abilities, and possibly even whether it CAN use certain abilities.

When talking about more powerful minions of equal intelligence:

First, I really hope I don't need to go to great lengths to explain how giving a minion greater magical powers might require more magical investment? I'm pretty sure that a minion that calls giant meteors from the sky that create flaming shockwaves when they hit has had a bigger magic investment than one that simply hits things.

So that's two means by which a minion can be made stronger. What about size? Which do you think takes more magic to create, a standard ember-type fire elemental, or something like the Metrica Province world boss? Well, we actually have an indication of this with the Olmakhan children - each is able to make a single smallish sand effigy on their own, but creating a big one requires a group of them working together. 

Now, with most dragons who corrupt existing creatures, they can sidestep this somewhat: if they corrupt something that's already big, the magic that helped it to grow to that size (remember, in the Guild Wars universe, some level of magic is required even for biological creatures to grow, no magic whatsoever means everything dies!) is already in its body. Primordus, however, creates his minions (or, possibly more accurately, his generals create his minions) directly out of rock and lava. Creating a bigger Destroyer requires animating a greater quantity of raw material, which based on the elemental summoning we observe, almost certainly requires a greater investment of magic. Particularly since they doubtlessly also require magic to retain their heat.

Outside of making minions smarter, more magically capable, or just plain bigger, how do you propose Primordus got stronger minions without investing more magic into them?

And this goes double for void creatures that appear to be formed directly from magic rather than using a physical substance.

Edited by draxynnic.3719
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The origins of the gods are also brought into question with the description of Balthazar's arrival and the death of Abaddon. It's said that Balthazar arrived into the world carrying the head of his father. Is this the father of the six? Or just Balthazar's father and the rest of the six are other gods that have come together like the super friends and decided to pal around together? Then we have Abaddon. It's said that he got his power from an ancient being, some older deposed god.

Again, BS meter getting into the red. When Abaddon was killed, the result was the Crystal Desert, the formation of the Desolation... we all the know the rest. Was it because he himself was so much stronger than the rest of the gods? Or was it because of the level of magic he obtained from the unknown being? We didn't see the formation of another desert or ecological catastrophe with the death of Balthazar. Was it because he was weaker than Abaddon from just a pure power standing, or is there really god magic and since Balthazar was stripped of his and was using normal mundane magic, there wasn't a bigger disaster.

Did the gods just let any ol' joe with the ability to fart a world into existence into their group? Or was this the last straw with the rebellious members of their family and they decided to settle it all on Tyria? These are beings that; up until PoF, had levels of power that were believed to be unrivaled and we found out that they're leaving because they don't want to destroy the world with a fight against the dragons or another god. I think the gods were just using the fallout from killing Abaddon as an excuse to high-tail out of Tyria because they were scared of getting munched by the dragons. 

Everything that's said to justify their leaving boils down to - if you kill this, magic is released into the world, which leads to the dragons waking up, which leads to everything (including the gods) becoming a midnight run to the fridge before going back to coma land. The gods pretend to be benevolent, caring and wanting the best, but as soon as their personal interest is brought into question, they get mad or run. That's not love, that's gas lighting.  

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1 hour ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I"m not against the "gods stepped back to prevent greater damage" type of narrative: Tolkien did it with the Valar and the Maiar in their war against Morgoth and his servants, a war that resulted in devastation of large swaths of Middle-Earth, including sinking the furthest western regions of the continent.  The Valar afterward took a VERY hands off approach to the affairs of Arda.  But that said, the writers at Anet have been a lot clumsier in using this type of narrative, at least post-Nightfall.  Especially when there are some holes that they've never explained, like why Abaddon's overthrow was so different from Balthazar's, and why no one noticed it happened even from the Mists.  And as others have pointed out, their seeming general incompetency.

As I recall, the information we have is that Abaddon directly went against the other gods in terms of interacting with humans, but also giving out gifts the other gods had said "no" to. As well as that but apparently his most devoted followers had severely defaced and wrecked the shrines of the other five gods in the temple devoted to the six gods. IIRC, that event was the spark of the all out conflict that occurred.

 

32 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There's been a lot of discussion regarding the gods, but one thing that I haven't seen raised here:

Communication from the gods doesn't seem to be a 'light up the sky so everyone sees it' affair. Instead, they choose a few select messengers, and it's up to those messengers to spread the word from there. Against the charge of not warning about the dragons, I'd highlight that according to the Movement of the World, the Order of Whispers knew about the dragons well before anyone else did, but were not believed. There's basically two possibilities here: either the Order of Whispers found out directly or indirectly from the gods, or they didn't need the help of the gods to find out. In the latter case, it's likely that the gods knew that the means for humans to find out for themselves was available (the majority of what is known about them in-universe was in the Scroll of the Five True Gods, after all, so maybe that WAS the warning). Don't forget that Glint and the gods are allies, and human mythology even says the gods appointed Glint as Tyria's caretaker before leaving to find other worlds, so "Glint has a plan and she'll inform those who need to know, what they need to know, so we'll leave her to it while we work on Plan B" is actually a valid response from the gods to the situation. Balthazar, by contrast, wanted to upend that plan.

ArenaNet has told us a few things about the mindset of the gods, and there are two things that really stand out:

The first, which is the one that we get metaphorically beaten over the head with, is that as a group the gods believe that interference is only likely to make things worse. YMMV on whether you agree, but if that is what they genuinely believe, then staying out is probably the morally right thing to do until and unless they're in a position to offer a full evacuation.

The second, which has mostly been said out-of-game in interviews and the like but which is compatible with what we see ingame, is that the gods regard humanity as a whole in a similar manner to parents of an adult descendent - they want the descendent to do well and feel bad when bad things happen, but unless it really does come to life or death (with 'death' being extinction of humanity in this case) they want the descendent in question to stand on their own feet and solve their own problems. The gods have empowered humanity with their gifts, as demonstrated by the song and dance at the end of Nightfall, and they have faith that humans will be able to find a way through. And so far? That faith has been well-placed. The dragon issue has been resolved - unless Aurene starts experiencing problems with handling all that magic - and while there's a bit of a cloud over Cantha's future, Kryta, Elona, and even what's left of Ascalon looks to be in a good state for the foreseeable future.

Now, it's pretty clear that, while they have occasionally taken interest in individual humans, on the whole they don't seem to care all that much about the plights of individual humans, and might actually consider a crisis that causes a high degree of suffering to humanity to be a good thing if humanity as a whole comes out stronger and more united on the other side. But the key is that they want the human species to be independent, they don't want humans to be constantly relying on the gods to solve their problems, or perhaps even.

Which might well be an explanation for the 'Garden of the Gods' thing. People have a tendency not to work as hard on solving problems if they know someone else is going to solve it for them, so the gods might not have wanted to make humans too confident in the evacuation plan lest that lull them into a sense of security (that may be misplaced if the gods haven't found a suitable evac site yet). Conversely, having a few such texts out there, even if they aren't believed by the mainstream, means that if the evac plan is triggered, people will know what's happening.

This is also all pretty true. After events in Orr (the king begging them to intervene in the conflicts due to magic and all, which was when they claimed to make the bloodstones) and Abaddon, they backed off. They helped and gave blessings here or there, but overall they didn't bother to actually do anything if humans could solve it themselves.

I think there is like 2 cases of Dwayna stepping in during quests, which is purely her avatar showing up and going "Aha, nope this guys soul belongs to me and is going to my realm now." right before somebody died.

5 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

The origins of the gods are also brought into question with the description of Balthazar's arrival and the death of Abaddon. It's said that Balthazar arrived into the world carrying the head of his father. Is this the father of the six? Or just Balthazar's father and the rest of the six are other gods that have come together like the super friends and decided to pal around together? Then we have Abaddon. It's said that he got his power from an ancient being, some older deposed god.

Melandru and Dwayna are the two oldest ones, and implied to by the originals. The rest are likewise implied to have replaced a previous figure at some point before going to Tyria (barring Grenth and Kormir)

Grenth ascended to godhood after defeating Dhuum. Kormir ascended after Abaddon was killed.

8 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Again, BS meter getting into the red. When Abaddon was killed, the result was the Crystal Desert, the formation of the Desolation... we all the know the rest. Was it because he himself was so much stronger than the rest of the gods? Or was it because of the level of magic he obtained from the unknown being? We didn't see the formation of another desert or ecological catastrophe with the death of Balthazar. Was it because he was weaker than Abaddon from just a pure power standing, or is there really god magic and since Balthazar was stripped of his and was using normal mundane magic, there wasn't a bigger disaster.

Comparing Balthazar stripped of his power and refueled partially by a bloodstone to Abaddon at the height of his power when he was cast down and imprisoned (not killed). It's also not stated that his downfall was the cause of the crystal desert, but the conflict was. His fall created the desolation, with the Mouth of Torment being the spot where they defeated him.

Balthazar also literally had two dragons ontop of his body and consumed the magic, causing only a brief storm that stopped some of the brandstorms in the area from being so severe. Like the bloodstone explosion earlier, only it wasn't even allowed to hit that critical state with Balthazar's death. His death was more akin to Mordremoth's, which released a magical  windstorm (causing the events of the raid) along the ley-lines, but mostly getting absorbed by Aurene's egg.

14 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Did the gods just let any ol' joe with the ability to fart a world into existence into their group? Or was this the last straw with the rebellious members of their family and they decided to settle it all on Tyria? These are beings that; up until PoF, had levels of power that were believed to be unrivaled and we found out that they're leaving because they don't want to destroy the world with a fight against the dragons or another god. I think the gods were just using the fallout from killing Abaddon as an excuse to high-tail out of Tyria because they were scared of getting munched by the dragons.

I don't even understand the first two sentences here at all.

And again, they not only A: don't want to die, but also B: don't want to ravage the world.

And guess what, if they die, the world is screwed. Whether from magical explosion, or from an enhanced dragon stomping about with greater power then it did before.

 

16 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Everything that's said to justify their leaving boils down to - if you kill this, magic is released into the world, which leads to the dragons waking up, which leads to everything (including the gods) becoming a midnight run to the fridge before going back to coma land. The gods pretend to be benevolent, caring and wanting the best, but as soon as their personal interest is brought into question, they get mad or run. That's not love, that's gas lighting.  

It's implied that even with Kormir's ascension and getting Abaddon's magic, enough spilled out to speed up the waking process of the dragons.

They care, but they also know they can't solve every problem and sometimes it'll just make things worse. They will let humanity trip and fall, so it can climb back up stronger.

If the one book is true, they may be seeking out a new world to relocate humanity too, if the situation on Tyria gets too bad. but, humanity and the other races have rose to the occasion, and made Glint and the Forgotton's plan work to save Tyria.

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2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

here's basically two possibilities here: either the Order of Whispers found out directly or indirectly from the gods, or they didn't need the help of the gods to find out. In the latter case, it's likely that the gods knew that the means for humans to find out for themselves was available (the majority of what is known about them in-universe was in the Scroll of the Five True Gods, after all, so maybe that WAS the warning).

This really isn't justification IMO. The gods only telling an incredibly select group of people, or just letting them figure it out on their own, is fine if we're talking about not wanting to upend human development and let them figure out how to make X technology on their own. But we're talking about literal planetary genocide on the part of the Elder Dragons. Not informing people at large about it is callous, bordering on malicious.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Don't forget that Glint and the gods are allies, and human mythology even says the gods appointed Glint as Tyria's caretaker before leaving to find other worlds, so "Glint has a plan and she'll inform those who need to know, what they need to know, so we'll leave her to it while we work on Plan B" is actually a valid response from the gods to the situation. Balthazar, by contrast, wanted to upend that plan.

Except we know from Glint herself that her plan wasn't done in cooperation with the Gods, and she had no idea what the Gods were thinking or even knew. She even questions what exactly the Forgotten told the gods, or what the Forgotten knew but hadn't told her, because everyone was keeping everyone else in the dark about stuff.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The first, which is the one that we get metaphorically beaten over the head with, is that as a group the gods believe that interference is only likely to make things worse. YMMV on whether you agree, but if that is what they genuinely believe, then staying out is probably the morally right thing to do until and unless they're in a position to offer a full evacuation.

And again, theres a difference between not getting directly involved in the fighting, and not saying anything to anyone and possibly letting them get wiped out.One is basic on logic, reason, and experience. The other is just letting millions die.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

but unless it really does come to life or death (with 'death' being extinction of humanity in this case) they want the descendent in question to stand on their own feet and solve their own problems.

So literally what would happen in the Elder Dragon situation.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

The dragon issue has been resolved - unless Aurene starts experiencing problems with handling all that magic - and while there's a bit of a cloud over Cantha's future, Kryta, Elona, and even what's left of Ascalon looks to be in a good state for the foreseeable future.

Through no help from the gods, and based on a plan by Glint we aren't even sure they were aware about. The gods really had no known reason to assume that humanity had any chance of winning. That they did is pure chance.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But the key is that they want the human species to be independent, they don't want humans to be constantly relying on the gods to solve their problems, or perhaps even.

And now we're just relying on Elder Dragons to solve our problems. Good job gods, you replaced one dependency with another!

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Taimi didn't build that machine, she bolted extra functionality onto Omadd's machine that she said herself that she didn't fully understand and certainly couldn't rebuild. We have no idea what the precision of Taimi's readings actually were.

No, Taimi built the machine and then bolted parts of Omadd's machine onto it to make it function.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

There certainly is something to contradict the idea that Primordus pre-awakening wasn't as strong as post-awakening Jormag, and it's a really obvious thing: namely, that Jormag was fully awake and Primordus wasn't, and we know that it's the influx of magic that wakes them up.

And we have no idea what those threshold are for each dragon, or if they're all the same. we can only take what we get in-game at face value, which is that, at the time of the Metrica DRM, Jormag and Primordus were at equal power, despite the latter not having woken up yet.

2 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

But okay. Let's entertain the idea that Primordus and Jormag require different levels of magic to awaken. We've now established that different dragons might respond differently to magic. This could mean that, while dragons grow and shrink depending on how much magic they have, two different dragons might have different sizes despite being evenly matched in magic. Which would then debunk your claim that the size of dragons cannot be linked to the quantity of magic they possess on the basis that Aurene and Soo-Won are relatively small despite having multiple dragons worth of magic. Which, might I remind you, is where this discussion started - you claimed that the varying sizes of the same dragon could not be linked to their magic on the basis that Aurene and Soo-Won are relatively small....

The intelligence example is brought up because it demonstrates that investing more in minions means less for the dragons - most dragon minions are stupid because the dragon wants to reduce its magic investment per minion. Intelligence is also going to be a factor in power, since it influences how effectively the minion fights and how effectively it uses its abilities, and possibly even whether it CAN use certain abilities.

That isn't how that line of logic plays out.

Again, using Jormag as an example, the break on his tusk is still the same size as needed to fit the tooth of Jormag onto it exactly. This despite absorbing tons of magic not only since Asgeir's time, but also since awakening in Jormag Rising. If he was actually getting bigger or small it wouldn't fit.

We're talking about being with magical powers surpassing that of the gods, the amount of magic used for this is nothing to them. Hell, in regards to Primordus none of his minions have ANY intelligence since they're all rock and lava, the "intelligence" of Destroyers is just Primordus', since hes the only thing with an actual brain in his whole collective.

There is nothing indicating they actually change size at any point in-universe in the games. Its purely made up by fans to try to explain model differences that are just real world size changes for effect.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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Here is also something that I think should be considered when regarding lore.

When Zhaitan died, there were reports that the Risen started to change, and act different. That Tequatl started to change too. In Siren's Landing, we see Unchained Risen being coaxed into a bamboo cage by Sylvari through soft language and gentle treatment.

That's certainly an indication of dragon minions changing.

Now, we look at Braham and Ryland. When Jormag and Primordius died, they changed back to their normal forms. This leads me to believe that they weren't corrupted, but just empowered by the dragons. But what of Sylvari that fell to Mordremoth's whispers and influence when they betrayed the Pact in the beginning of the Maguuma campaign? Sylvari are dragon minions, but the corruption or influence wasn't "activated" until Mordremoth gave the word.

Are we going to see changes in the altered Sylvari since Mordremoth is dead? And what of the Branded? Will we see changes in them too?

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37 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Now, we look at Braham and Ryland. When Jormag and Primordius died, they changed back to their normal forms. This leads me to believe that they weren't corrupted, but just empowered by the dragons. But what of Sylvari that fell to Mordremoth's whispers and influence when they betrayed the Pact in the beginning of the Maguuma campaign? Sylvari are dragon minions, but the corruption or influence wasn't "activated" until Mordremoth gave the word.

Braham, Ryland, and Caithe, are pretty clear indications its possible for Elder Dragons to empower others without actually corrupting them. This is supported by what Caithe said back in LWS4 about not being corrupted, but being connected.

Whats more, this might actually explain something odd with the Sylvari post HoT. When Zhaitan, Primordus, Jormag, and Kralkatorrik, died, their minions didn't just change back to normal. We also haven't seen any indication that they can go back by willing it, like we saw with some Sylvari who were changed into Mordrem Guard, and then reverted back by strength of will.

We know the Pale Tree, and the Sylvari born from it, were "purified" in some manner, explaining them not being dragon minions from the get go. The Pale Tree, and the Dream, offering them protection against Mordremoth's mental powers. But if the Sylvari are inherently purified, and had mental protections via the Dream, then even though Mordremoth was controlling them due to the inherent link they have to him, they weren't really "corrupted" by him in the traditional sense.

Much as how Braham was connected to Primordus, and had the Spirits of the Wild shielding his mind as much as they could(though not fully able to stop him from going near feral), the Sylvari still had some inherent protection from Mordremoth due to the Pale Tree/Dream. While their bodies were still mutated, like Braham and Ryland's were, their inherent disconnection from Mordremoth may be what allowed at least some of them to turn back after Mordremoth was defeated. Whereas other, more generic, Mordrem, as well as other dragon minions in general, cannot.

Given that the Sylvari started off inherently disconnected from their Elder Dragon originator, I doubt we will se any noticeable changes in them. The Branded are nearly wiped out by the time IBS starts(at least in the Blood Legion lands), and most of the Icebrood and Destroyers died when Jormag and Primordus did. So I don't know if we will ever run into them in any sufficient capacity to observe possible changes.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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35 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Are we going to see changes in the altered Sylvari since Mordremoth is dead? And what of the Branded? Will we see changes in them too?

We already have. You can find a Sylvari who transformed into Mordrem in the labyrinthine cliffs during the festival of the four winds. He's reverted back physically.

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3 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

We already have. You can find a Sylvari who transformed into Mordrem in the labyrinthine cliffs during the festival of the four winds. He's reverted back physically.

Also Rox mentions in LWS3 that many of them have apparently become "unhinged".

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Eir's_Memorial_in_Hoelbrak

Quote
<Character Name>: I still can't believe it. How did you find Garm?
Rox: Tracked him from the crash site. Wasn't easy—the jungle's still crawling with Mordrem.
Rox: Some of them have come unhinged without their master's voice. Poor Garm followed Eir's scent into the middle of it all.

 

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11 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

As I recall, the information we have is that Abaddon directly went against the other gods in terms of interacting with humans, but also giving out gifts the other gods had said "no" to. As well as that but apparently his most devoted followers had severely defaced and wrecked the shrines of the other five gods in the temple devoted to the six gods. IIRC, that event was the spark of the all out conflict that occurred.

Mostly true, though less gifts (read:magic) that the others said "no" to and more over doing it (read:giving out too much magic) and then Abby getting bitchy when the other gods tired to undo the chaos and take back some of those gifts of magic.

But the thing is this: the other five had to go to war against Abaddon and almost got their butts kicked, ruined half a continent worth of land, and in even in defeat Abaddon still had his full god-hood and his full powers, and was merely locked away in the Realm of Torment (some implications of the old gw.dat not withstanding) and didn't lose his powers until his death at the end of Nightfall.  But with Balthazar, things were very different.  The other gods somehow managed to strip him of his god-hood and his power without killing him and at least presumably without at least most of the same conflict.  This needs to be explained, and it needs to be explained really well and carefully otherwise its just another are more egregious example of really bad and lazy writing.

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On 9/3/2022 at 10:14 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

 This needs to be explained, and it needs to be explained really well and carefully otherwise its just another are more egregious example of really bad and lazy writing.

It was explained, indirectly.

Kormir states that Balthazar is no longer one of "The Six" but still refers to the Gods as "The Six", even after Rytlock points out that with Balthazar removed it should be "The Five", directly implying they got someone else to fill Balthazar's role.

The only reason they couldn't strip Abbadon of his godhood is because they needed someone to put it in, but didn't have anyone worthy. They apparently found someone for Balthazar.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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On 9/3/2022 at 11:14 PM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

Mostly true, though less gifts (read:magic) that the others said "no" to and more over doing it (read:giving out too much magic) and then Abby getting bitchy when the other gods tired to undo the chaos and take back some of those gifts of magic.

But the thing is this: the other five had to go to war against Abaddon and almost got their butts kicked, ruined half a continent worth of land, and in even in defeat Abaddon still had his full god-hood and his full powers, and was merely locked away in the Realm of Torment (some implications of the old gw.dat not withstanding) and didn't lose his powers until his death at the end of Nightfall.  But with Balthazar, things were very different.  The other gods somehow managed to strip him of his god-hood and his power without killing him and at least presumably without at least most of the same conflict.  This needs to be explained, and it needs to be explained really well and carefully otherwise its just another are more egregious example of really bad and lazy writing.

What I figured happened - assuming, of course, that Kormir is showing the truth and not doctored magical holograms (which is fully within the realm of her abilities) - was that Balthazar ranted and raved during a meeting and the other gods took immediate actions, while Abaddon is known to have stewed in isolation and make his decision to raise an army against the other gods without announcing it to the world.

By nature, that alone would mean Balthazar, who's depicted as a hotheaded and not-strategic (despite GW1 depictions) god of war, wouldn't have been nearly as prepared as Abaddon. Thus, the damages caused in striking Balthazar down would have been less desastrous (on top of being in the Mists, and we still don't know the state of the god realms, though it was planned to have us visit the Hall of Heroes in a destroyed state, which could have been the intended site for Balthazar vs the other gods).

Then, as Sajuuk said, Kormir also hints that there are still Six Gods, not Five, which is also subtly implied in Zafirah's Requiem short story, so Balthazar likely got replaced by mortal who is the new god of war off in the Mists somewhere.

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