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What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?


Aodlop.1907
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32 minutes ago, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I understand that there is likely a replacement for Balthazar.

But I've yet seen an explanation as to how the gods were able to fully strip Balthazar of his god-hood and get a successor that way, when they couldn't do that to Abaddon.

Why not? They did that with Dhuum.

 

An easy explanation for why it worked with Dhuum and Balthazar, but not Abaddon, was that the god of knowledge has the, well, knowledge of how to do that.

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This is just my ramble on the current posts.

In Dungeons and Dragons, if you kill a god, you can take his portfolio. That being what he's the god of. That's what Kormir did when she ran into that big ball of power in the GW1 cut scene. She took his portfolio.

Abaddon had a LOT in his portfolio. Magic, secrets, water and knowledge. Just to name a few. The more you have tucked under your belt, the more powerful you are. Not to mention it said that he got his powers from an older, deposed god, which could imply that he was the strongest of the original gods that came to Tyria.

But there's something that makes Abaddon scarier than the other gods. His mastery over knowledge and magic. If anyone would know how to kill another god, it would be him. Plus, the gods are magical beings. It would be a bad idea to fight the god of magic  head on with those two things up his sleeve. That's why the gods had the heroes do it. Abaddon was just too dangerous to let live while it might have been easier to strip Balthazar of his power, leave him in the mists vs an all out fight against the god of war and risking another big boom or several if another god died in the fight against him.

 As far as having the god of war replaced, I don't think that would be a feasible idea. Balthazar had already been stripped of his god powers. He was being powered by all of the magic in the Maguuma bloodstone. That was just magic. So it wasn't possible for someone to take his portfolio. If there is a new god of war, he or she would have been appointed and gifted his powers by the other gods.

 

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46 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Not to mention it said that he got his powers from an older, deposed god, which could imply that he was the strongest of the original gods that came to Tyria.

The implication is that most - if not all - of the gods got their power from an older, deposed god. This includes Grenth, of course, who deposed Dhuum, and Balthazar, who had a non-divine father, indicating that Balthazar wasn't born a full fledged god (at most, he would have been whatever Grenth was considered pre-overthrowing Dhuum, some sort of half-god half-mortal being). Lyssa is also given a small implication that she's not the first god of illusions (though it's super minor).

 

Depending on the canonicity of Utopia lore brought up in the Complete Art of Guild Wars, there could have been a full generation of previous gods (including Dwayna's father if dev commentary of potential Utopia lore gets canonized).

46 minutes ago, Shivan.9438 said:

As far as having the god of war replaced, I don't think that would be a feasible idea. Balthazar had already been stripped of his god powers. He was being powered by all of the magic in the Maguuma bloodstone. That was just magic. So it wasn't possible for someone to take his portfolio. If there is a new god of war, he or she would have been appointed and gifted his powers by the other gods.

You're missing it while still getting it.

Like you said, Balthazar was stripped of his god powers. Nightfall pointed out that a god's power needs a vessel, so where did that god power that was stripped of Balthazar go to?

When people bring up the idea of a replacement for Balthazar, it isn't a god born from the Maguuma bloodstone's magic nor of the other gods' powers, but of the power that was stripped from Balthazar when he was first imprisoned.

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2 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Depending on the canonicity of Utopia lore brought up in the Complete Art of Guild Wars, there could have been a full generation of previous gods (including Dwayna's father if dev commentary of potential Utopia lore gets canonized).

This is what I presume Xpack 4 will deal with.

Now that the Elder Dragon plot is over, the only real high level plot left, within the established narrative, is the god plot. Going to the far west, finding some Aztec/Inca/Maya themed area to round out the GW2 world, learning more about the gods, their origins, and the Mists, and getting some Lyssa, and possibly Dwayna(since shes the other god we really haven't touched on in GW2) lore, to wrap up up that plot makes sense.

And you've mentioned in the past, the GW2 artbook does treat the Utopia lore as if its at least somewhat canon, which would make sense if this is they planned for this to be next narrative focus.

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On 9/5/2022 at 8:02 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What I figured happened - assuming, of course, that Kormir is showing the truth and not doctored magical holograms (which is fully within the realm of her abilities) - was that Balthazar ranted and raved during a meeting and the other gods took immediate actions, while Abaddon is known to have stewed in isolation and make his decision to raise an army against the other gods without announcing it to the world.

By nature, that alone would mean Balthazar, who's depicted as a hotheaded and not-strategic (despite GW1 depictions) god of war, wouldn't have been nearly as prepared as Abaddon. Thus, the damages caused in striking Balthazar down would have been less desastrous (on top of being in the Mists, and we still don't know the state of the god realms, though it was planned to have us visit the Hall of Heroes in a destroyed state, which could have been the intended site for Balthazar vs the other gods).

Then, as Sajuuk said, Kormir also hints that there are still Six Gods, not Five, which is also subtly implied in Zafirah's Requiem short story, so Balthazar likely got replaced by mortal who is the new god of war off in the Mists somewhere.

I took it as more of the other gods deciding (after Balthazar left the meeting) to deal with him before he could pull an Abaddon. Abaddon had struck first when he revolted, and that lead to war.

The other gods imprisoning him and stripping him of god-hood when he wasn't expecting them to attack him, just leave him alone would explain why he treated it as such a huge betrayal as well. Much less "War of the gods" and more... Caesar getting stabbed in the back in a meeting?

On 9/6/2022 at 9:25 AM, The Greyhawk.9107 said:

I understand that there is likely a replacement for Balthazar.

But I've yet seen an explanation as to how the gods were able to fully strip Balthazar of his god-hood and get a successor that way, when they couldn't do that to Abaddon.

Because the gods wanted to replace Balthazar and Dhuum, but when they defeated Abaddon they decided to leave the role vacant.

On 9/6/2022 at 3:56 PM, Shivan.9438 said:

This is just my ramble on the current posts.

In Dungeons and Dragons, if you kill a god, you can take his portfolio. That being what he's the god of. That's what Kormir did when she ran into that big ball of power in the GW1 cut scene. She took his portfolio.

Abaddon had a LOT in his portfolio. Magic, secrets, water and knowledge. Just to name a few. The more you have tucked under your belt, the more powerful you are. Not to mention it said that he got his powers from an older, deposed god, which could imply that he was the strongest of the original gods that came to Tyria.
 

Abaddon was the god of Knowledge and water. You are adding extra roles to him.  When he was cast down, Lyssa took domain of water from him.

On 9/6/2022 at 3:56 PM, Shivan.9438 said:

But there's something that makes Abaddon scarier than the other gods. His mastery over knowledge and magic. If anyone would know how to kill another god, it would be him. Plus, the gods are magical beings. It would be a bad idea to fight the god of magic  head on with those two things up his sleeve. That's why the gods had the heroes do it. Abaddon was just too dangerous to let live while it might have been easier to strip Balthazar of his power, leave him in the mists vs an all out fight against the god of war and risking another big boom or several if another god died in the fight against him.
 

Abaddon wasn't the god of magic, he's just known (to players) as being the god who spread magic among humans/other races at a rate that the other gods didn't approve of.

His domains were water and knowledge. Sure, he may know more, but he isn't the oldest god (That is Melandru) and is a replacement, as is implied to be true of all the gods barring Melandru or Dwayna.

In the realm of torment, he wasn't fully restored, only his head and hands had been reformed. He was in the process of rebuilding himself when he got killed.

On 9/6/2022 at 3:56 PM, Shivan.9438 said:

 As far as having the god of war replaced, I don't think that would be a feasible idea. Balthazar had already been stripped of his god powers. He was being powered by all of the magic in the Maguuma bloodstone. That was just magic. So it wasn't possible for someone to take his portfolio. If there is a new god of war, he or she would have been appointed and gifted his powers by the other gods.

If he was replaced, it happened when they cast him out. Like how Dhuum was cast out of the six when Grenth replaced him, but is still powerful.

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3 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think there's a definite possibility that Abaddon is more powerful than the rest and also the domain itself has a corrupting aspect to it that hasn't gotten to Kormir just yet. That's only conjecture though. 

Nothing really implies anything of the sort though? We have no real timeframe of how long the war lasted that destroyed the Crystal Sea, just the aftermath.

He attempted to overthrow the other five, but failed. He replaced another god for the spot, but we don't know the situation there.

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21 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Abaddon was the god of Knowledge and water. You are adding extra roles to him.  When he was cast down, Lyssa took domain of water from him.

Abaddon wasn't the god of magic, he's just known (to players) as being the god who spread magic among humans/other races at a rate that the other gods didn't approve of.

His domains were water and knowledge. Sure, he may know more, but he isn't the oldest god (That is Melandru) and is a replacement, as is implied to be true of all the gods barring Melandru or Dwayna.

In the realm of torment, he wasn't fully restored, only his head and hands had been reformed. He was in the process of rebuilding himself when he got killed.

All the gods have more than two associations to them, and magic is associated strongly with Abaddon.

Grenth is more than just "god of death and ice". He's also titled as god of darkness and judgment.

Balthazar is more than just "god of war and fire", but also courage, honor, and challenge.

Abaddon's official title is God of Wisdom and Water, but is associated with ocean depths, secrets, knowledge, and magic.

 

That said, Lyssa didn't officially take on the mantle of water until after Kormir rose - not when Abaddon was cast down, but when he was killed. Despite this, however, Lyssa had a connection to the reflective surface water long before then. Just as Grenth had taken on some domain of knowledge and water due to his connections to the dead and ice.

21 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

His domains were water and knowledge. Sure, he may know more, but he isn't the oldest god (That is Melandru) and is a replacement, as is implied to be true of all the gods barring Melandru or Dwayna.

Depending on its canonicity, Utopia's lore does indicate that even Dwayna is a replacement god, as her father is listed among those of the previous pantheon that was wiped out.

13 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I think there's a definite possibility that Abaddon is more powerful than the rest and also the domain itself has a corrupting aspect to it that hasn't gotten to Kormir just yet. That's only conjecture though. 

Abaddon canonically was able to take down two gods by himself. So he was definitely the strongest god.

Whether this was possible because of his domain and knowing the other gods' weaknesses and had good use of tactics, or because of his sheer strength is never clarified though.

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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Abaddon canonically was able to take down two gods by himself. So he was definitely the strongest god.

Whether this was possible because of his domain and knowing the other gods' weaknesses and had good use of tactics, or because of his sheer strength is never clarified though.

When was this particular bit stated? I don't recall it/can't find mention of the first part specifically. I see a line about him being considered the "mightiest" but I never saw him as being far more powerful then the others.

Then again, his revolt against the other gods was planned, so he may have struck first/had opening advantage.

 

I grant the fact the gods have more then two domains, but I don't believe in a viewpoint of "Only Abaddon knew how to kill gods" or such, especially with him replacing another god, and the others replacing gods as well.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Depending on its canonicity, Utopia's lore does indicate that even Dwayna is a replacement god, as her father is listed among those of the previous pantheon that was wiped out.

While it is interesting, Dwayna and Melandru share physical traits the other gods don't have (though in one translation, Abaddon is described as a winged man whose features became more abyss-themed as his personality grew darker, but it's not references in English version anywhere) and I'm wary of fully accepting those parts,  like some of the POI blurbs from GW1 files which were declared non-canon later as I recall.

However, I suppose we could ponder on the details of Dwayna replacing her father, or if Dwayna and Melandru are merely the founds of what became our current six gods vs there being six and figures coming and going.

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15 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

When was this particular bit stated? I don't recall it/can't find mention of the first part specifically. I see a line about him being considered the "mightiest" but I never saw him as being far more powerful then the others.

Then again, his revolt against the other gods was planned, so he may have struck first/had opening advantage.

It, and most lore about the revolt itself, comes from the now-defunct Taiwanese website. It got a fan translated a few years back on Guildwiki (original) It's one of two Asian website sources that go into detail about Abaddon and his revolt, the other one you reference as it is the source of Abaddon's wings.

15 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I grant the fact the gods have more then two domains, but I don't believe in a viewpoint of "Only Abaddon knew how to kill gods" or such, especially with him replacing another god, and the others replacing gods as well.

My thought was more that Abaddon knew best how to deal with the current gods' weaknesses.

15 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

While it is interesting, Dwayna and Melandru share physical traits the other gods don't have (though in one translation, Abaddon is described as a winged man whose features became more abyss-themed as his personality grew darker, but it's not references in English version anywhere) and I'm wary of fully accepting those parts,  like some of the POI blurbs from GW1 files which were declared non-canon later as I recall.

However, I suppose we could ponder on the details of Dwayna replacing her father, or if Dwayna and Melandru are merely the founds of what became our current six gods vs there being six and figures coming and going.

I mean, just because Dwayna and Melandru (and Abaddon and Grenth) share a single physical trait, doesn't mean that they must be original gods - maybe they're both proto-harpies, if the Elonian legends are (partially) true of their origins, for example.

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13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It, and most lore about the revolt itself, comes from the now-defunct Taiwanese website. It got a fan translated a few years back on Guildwiki (original) It's one of two Asian website sources that go into detail about Abaddon and his revolt, the other one you reference as it is the source of Abaddon's wings.

My thought was more that Abaddon knew best how to deal with the current gods' weaknesses.

So it's questionable canon, but interesting either way. I wonder why that version got so much more information.

Second part could be entirely true. Less actual power, more wisdom in how to use it.

13 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I mean, just because Dwayna and Melandru (and Abaddon and Grenth) share a single physical trait, doesn't mean that they must be original gods - maybe they're both proto-harpies, if the Elonian legends are (partially) true of their origins, for example.

It's more of how they shared traits with all those statues in the hall of heroes, and with Melandru being listed as the oldest of the lot, it's always made sense to me that of the current group, they may be originals.

Or at least, of the same origin compared to the others perhaps. It's something that would be neat to explore on, if done right however.

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On 5/12/2022 at 10:21 AM, Kalavier.1097 said:

1: They wanted to move the world forward, and not have the issues of WoW were you have competing factions and nothing changes lol.

2: Eh, I don't see how it'd be a dungeon, but somewhat agree that it could've been a rebuilt temple. Either way, it would not be like GW1 had it.

3: Ministry of Purity was a GW1 thing, not GW2. And what we saw in Cantha aligns perfectly with how we left it and movement of the world lol.

4: This detail is actually moot because there is no resurrection. The things we needed to ascend for aren't in play so it's not as big a deal, and in terms of death, you don't just pop up at the local res shrine. To use waypoints you gotta be under them, so the whole "res after dying" is purely a gameplay mechanic. NPCS you can revive are knocked out and wounded, npcs you can't revive are dead.

I do want to see Shiny again, but I don't think it would've fit within PoF's narrative.

On point 1, that's exactly the problem of much of the story. Instead of letting it develop naturally and logically, they want to move the world somewhere and thus force unlikely events into the Tyrian world that break our suspense of disbelief.  

This is the biggest mistake they continually make which makes the story unenticing. 

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On 5/13/2022 at 4:54 PM, Vanthian.9267 said:

The entire story arc leading up to, and all the way through, PoF.  Absolutely trash.  If it were Menzies I would understand, but turning Balthazar is just stupid. 

Guild Wars 1 Prophecies was outstanding.  Factions was above average/average.  Nightfall was poor and EotN was above average. 

Guild Wars 2 lore team has constantly churned out below average work.  Perhaps if they stopped focusing on social propaganda and focused on the lore it would be better. 

Honestly couldn't have said it better myself. I got really invested in the lore for a short time thanks to Wooden Potatoes videos on Guild Wars lore and then by playing the first game.  

But I've felt since Season 1 of GW2 as if none of the events that occurred are cannon, rather an activists fanfic spin on Tyria.  

Thus I lost interest in it very quickly. 

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On 10/11/2022 at 2:47 AM, Dib.4612 said:

On point 1, that's exactly the problem of much of the story. Instead of letting it develop naturally and logically, they want to move the world somewhere and thus force unlikely events into the Tyrian world that break our suspense of disbelief.  

This is the biggest mistake they continually make which makes the story unenticing. 

"Natural" story development doesn't exist in the MMO sphere since NATURALLY the sorts of big things MMOs tend to cover take place over decades, not the handful of years to 1 decade an MMO story will end up covering. There is always an accelerated aspect to game narrative.

And uhh.... when did GW2 force unlikely events into the Tyrian world that break suspension of disbelief? Pretty much every major event in GW2's narrative(outside the over arching Elder dragon plot) has been incredibly localized to one region, and deals with the specific issues of that region.

They aren't throwing Elona plots in Cantha, Cantha plots in Tyia, Tyria plots in Elona. Joko didn't invade Cantha or anything. The key to resurrecting the Sunspear organization wasn't in the Maguuma, or anything.

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Turning Balthazar into a villain was one of my favourite soft redcons, or twists, whatever you want to call it. Why would we assume the God of War of all people is a nice guy? In Greek mythology he's not a very nice guy either, so to me it makes total sense. We don't know the exact details of how the other gods were able to strip him of his powers, but I think we can assume Balthazar did not expect them to turn against him. He probably thought he could trust them, but he was betrayed by them... even by Lyssa. So the circumstances are quite different from what happened with Abaddon.

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1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

They never said the dwarves are all dead, merely that Odgen is the last one on the surface.

Well.....

If we're just talking core, you're right. Core established Ogden as "the last on the surface" while core and Edge of Destiny both established them as "so diminished that they can no longer hold back Primordus" (so not gone but pretty kitten close). But then Season 2 comes along and...

Magister Ela Makkay: He rarely agrees to such things. I will warn you, he's quite old and has little patience. He's the last of his kind.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

Though in the same instance, Marjory says he's the last on the surface, Ela Makkay, who is somehow an expert on nearly everything, says he's the last of his kind in general.

So before Rhoban, the game both tells players that the dwarves are all dead but Ogden, and that only Ogden is known. We know which one proved true in the end, by virtue of Gen3+4 GW2 writers desiring to include dwarves.

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4 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Though in the same instance, Marjory says he's the last on the surface, Ela Makkay, who is somehow an expert on nearly everything, says he's the last of his kind in general.

So before Rhoban, the game both tells players that the dwarves are all dead but Ogden, and that only Ogden is known. We know which one proved true in the end, by virtue of Gen3+4 GW2 writers desiring to include dwarves.

We don't even know what exactly Makkay meant with "last of his kind". She could very well have referred to surface-dwelling dwarves as his kind.

Also, it's likely that nobody knew of Rhoban (and the Magma dwarves in Season 5), and thus assumed no Dwarves other than Ogden remained on the surface. I don't think even Taimi's team knew of Rhoban, before the commander stepped in to help.

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7 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

I don't care. I want to be a Dwarf!

Boring typical fantasy race! Get out of here. You and your dwarves and your elf ears too! Meh! Meh, I say!

 

(partially /s)

3 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

We don't even know what exactly Makkay meant with "last of his kind". She could very well have referred to surface-dwelling dwarves as his kind.

Also, it's likely that nobody knew of Rhoban (and the Magma dwarves in Season 5), and thus assumed no Dwarves other than Ogden remained on the surface. I don't think even Taimi's team knew of Rhoban, before the commander stepped in to help.

I think the context makes it pretty clear that "last of his kind" was meant in a very literal and not beating-around-the-bush-with-ignoring-technicalities.

And while indeed the Priory didn't know of Rhoban, they wouldn't have been unable to explore the depths (even if such were to be dangerous), not to mention the Priory are a scientific bunch, and scientific bunches have a tendency to not state hypotheses or wild guesses as facts, so to say with certainty that Ogden was the last dwarf would imply that they have strong reason to believe beyond "well, no dwarf decided to surface and come to us."

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Well, if I see Primordus somehow rise again, I´ll be fine. And if he brings with him the rest of his body, new fire themed or Ring of Fire oriented map and some kind of new dragon sized Destroyer champion, it would be even better. Of course he could bring his voice too, I am pretty sure he would be able to speak if he wanted to. After all, Elder Dragon can´t be this much dumb.

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