What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?

[voltaicbore.8012]

On 8/22/2022 at 12:49 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The entirety of the first half of IBS, and even a large part of Champions, was all about WHY it would go into that fight.

Still doesn't mean it was well paced, or well executed.

[Kalavier.1097]

22 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Well.....

If we're just talking core, you're right. Core established Ogden as "the last on the surface" while core and Edge of Destiny both established them as "so diminished that they can no longer hold back Primordus" (so not gone but pretty kitten close). But then Season 2 comes along and...

Magister Ela Makkay: He rarely agrees to such things. I will warn you, he's quite old and has little patience. He's the last of his kind.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

Though in the same instance, Marjory says he's the last on the surface, Ela Makkay, who is somehow an expert on nearly everything, says he's the last of his kind in general.

So before Rhoban, the game both tells players that the dwarves are all dead but Ogden, and that only Ogden is known. We know which one proved true in the end, by virtue of Gen3+4 GW2 writers desiring to include dwarves.

The same line is used by the Dredge, and nobody has shown any inclination to delve deep underground, especially since going beyond a certain level would drastically increase the risk of destroyer attacks. And the dwarves went deep.

GW is filled with people who do make statements, from partial information or all the information they have, and later new information comes out that shows they were partly, or entirely wrong. This isn't really retconning but true to RL as well.

18 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

We don't even know what exactly Makkay meant with "last of his kind". She could very well have referred to surface-dwelling dwarves as his kind.

Also, it's likely that nobody knew of Rhoban (and the Magma dwarves in Season 5), and thus assumed no Dwarves other than Ogden remained on the surface. I don't think even Taimi's team knew of Rhoban, before the commander stepped in to help.

It's also stated that Odgen was the last dwarf to undergo the rite as I recall, and the only one who didn't go into a "SMASH DESTROYER GREAT DWARF RAWR" mental state upon doing the rite (as the others did at first on doing it)

And yeah, it's implied or stated that Rhoban and his fellows went up to the surface to help keep the volcano from going boom, but got wiped out by destroyers. He survived but ended up in the skritt camp. Course, we could've built him a golem body instead of lugging him around but...

He does present an interesting thought of if the dwarves can survive as just a head, how many dwarves litter the depths of tyria, alive but shattered.

 

14 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I think the context makes it pretty clear that "last of his kind" was meant in a very literal and not beating-around-the-bush-with-ignoring-technicalities.

And while indeed the Priory didn't know of Rhoban, they wouldn't have been unable to explore the depths (even if such were to be dangerous), not to mention the Priory are a scientific bunch, and scientific bunches have a tendency to not state hypotheses or wild guesses as facts, so to say with certainty that Ogden was the last dwarf would imply that they have strong reason to believe beyond "well, no dwarf decided to surface and come to us."

Also literally in the personal story, Odgen himself says in response to " How did you outlive the rest of your kind?"

"I didn't. The few survivors now battle servants of the Elder Dragon Primordus, deep underground. I alone remain above, to tell the tale."

This dialogue is done in the Norn personal story, when they choose to join an order and fight off the dredge trying to kill Odgen.

So even "the last dwarf" says there are still dwarves alive.

Add that into Ela's statement, the context is clearly shifted to "Last of his kind" meaning "Last one on the surface" not "Last dwarf period." Odgen is, until season 3, simply the last known dwarf on the surface, with the very few others that are hinted at being up top having been killed/destroyed, or returned to the depths. Or living in areas so remote nobody knows where they are.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

13 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

Still doesn't mean it was well paced, or well executed.

Not sure how a story that was over a year and half long isn't well paced. If anything, it was bordering on being extended too long by the time we got to it.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

GW is filled with people who do make statements, from partial information or all the information they have, and later new information comes out that shows they were partly, or entirely wrong. This isn't really retconning but true to RL as well.

The thing is that Ela Makkay, during S1 and S2, was treated much like Taimi is treated in S3 to S4 - as a source of absolute knowledge for the players to learn from. So players who were active at the time were very much conditioned to think "because Ela said it, it must be true" even if it got retconned by other writers later on.

And as to "filled with people" bit - scientific folks aren't those who tend to make statements without evidence backing their claim, unless they're total frauds. Which as above, Ela is built up throughout Season 1 as not being a fraud.

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

It's also stated that Odgen was the last dwarf to undergo the rite as I recall, and the only one who didn't go into a "SMASH DESTROYER GREAT DWARF RAWR" mental state upon doing the rite (as the others did at first on doing it)

Nope, Ogden did it later than Jalis, but he was not the last dwarf to undergo the rite. There were groups who had no inclination to undergo but were forced to - in the same way that the group in IBS that turned into destroyers were slowly turning to stone before channeling Primordus' power.

13 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Also literally in the personal story, Odgen himself says in response to " How did you outlive the rest of your kind?"

"I didn't. The few survivors now battle servants of the Elder Dragon Primordus, deep underground. I alone remain above, to tell the tale."

This dialogue is done in the Norn personal story, when they choose to join an order and fight off the dredge trying to kill Odgen.

So even "the last dwarf" says there are still dwarves alive.

Like I said, Core and PS set it up like Ogden isn't the last of his kind, but S2 does suggest very heavily or have NPCs outright state that Ogden was. We know now which is more accurate, but with Ogden being on the surface, there's no real way for him to know that he isn't the last of his kind. And in the same light, S2 was once "the most up to date lore" and was contradicting older lore, so people going through would, until meeting Rhoban, treat it as the true canon - as the "later new information [coming] out that shows they were partly, or even entirely wrong".

 

Rhoban and IBS shows the truth, but it isn't unrealistic to see that people would view Rhoban and IBS as the retcon to the truth coming out in S2.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

13 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The thing is that Ela Makkay, during S1 and S2, was treated much like Taimi is treated in S3 to S4 - as a source of absolute knowledge for the players to learn from. So players who were active at the time were very much conditioned to think "because Ela said it, it must be true" even if it got retconned by other writers later on.

And as to "filled with people" bit - scientific folks aren't those who tend to make statements without evidence backing their claim, unless they're total frauds. Which as above, Ela is built up throughout Season 1 as not being a fraud.

Nope, Ogden did it later than Jalis, but he was not the last dwarf to undergo the rite. There were groups who had no inclination to undergo but were forced to - in the same way that the group in IBS that turned into destroyers were slowly turning to stone before channeling Primordus' power.

Like I said, Core and PS set it up like Ogden isn't the last of his kind, but S2 does suggest very heavily or have NPCs outright state that Ogden was. We know now which is more accurate, but with Ogden being on the surface, there's no real way for him to know that he isn't the last of his kind. And in the same light, S2 was once "the most up to date lore" and was contradicting older lore, so people going through would, until meeting Rhoban, treat it as the true canon - as the "later new information [coming] out that shows they were partly, or even entirely wrong".

 

Rhoban and IBS shows the truth, but it isn't unrealistic to see that people would view Rhoban and IBS as the retcon to the truth coming out in S2.

The thing I want to point out is "Last of his kind" is, ultimately, a vague statement that can lead into many ways. It does not mean a direct "He's the last dwarf alive.", especially if a nearby character *Marjory* directly states he's the last one on the surface. I went back to read the dialogue, and Marjory outright describes him as "The last one on the surface" before Ela states that he's the last of his kind.

So it's very obvious in the context that Odgen is the last dwarf on the surface, but it's not stated if there are any left below the surface. If Ela had that statement without Marjory's comment specifically being about Odgen remaining on the surface while the others went underground, I could see it being taken to me "The last dwarf period.", but combo Marjory and Ela, I don't see how "The last of his kind" = "The last dwarf known on the surface" is such a stretch with that context alone. Yes, non-Norn players don't get his comment about there being survivors but yeah.

Even if you take it as "Ela said it therefore it's true 100%." She doesn't say they are all dead. She merely repeats what Marjory said, in a different phrasing. And Marjory says

Quote

Marjory Delaqua: Kas, he's one of the most magical beings I've ever met. He's a dwarf, the last of his race on the surface of Tyria. Grenth alone knows how old he is, hundreds of years, at least.

 

[voltaicbore.8012]

14 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Not sure how a story that was over a year and half long isn't well paced. If anything, it was bordering on being extended too long by the time we got to it.

So mere length now qualifies as well-paced. Not sure I should be surprised, this sort of "logic" is par for the course for you.

I actually agree that the overall arc took too long to accomplish what it did. Then again, you demonstrate an impressive inability to distinguish "the story did something" vs "the story did something well".

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

4 hours ago, voltaicbore.8012 said:

So mere length now qualifies as well-paced. Not sure I should be surprised, this sort of "logic" is par for the course for you.

I actually agree that the overall arc took too long to accomplish what it did. Then again, you demonstrate an impressive inability to distinguish "the story did something" vs "the story did something well".

Define "well".

More often than not what people describe as a "well" done idea for how X story should've gone its some convoluted, nonsensical, mess of events thats over extended, and wouldn't make sense with basic narrative pacing. That or "well" is "the NPCs need to beat me over the head with obvious conclusions because I refuse to accept implied conclusions as reality despite that not being how narrative has worked ever"

Given what people like you've previously said about narrative, I wouldn't want it to fit your definition of well.

Looking at the overall events of the narrative

• Jormag manipulating one of the Charr imperators to not only torpedo his own species' military forces, and political stability, but also simultaneously give itself a large army in the process. Especially when you consider the Charr are the most prominent military force among the 5 races.
• Jormag draining the powers of the corrupted Spirits of the Wild, and trying to corrupt the main Spirits of the Wild to drain their powers as well.
• Jormag copying Aurene's use of a Champion, which has obviously helped her greatly in her quest, to lead its forces.
• Jormag manipulating the Asura into helping him, including looking for weaknesses in Primordus' forces, and making a temporary alliance with the Pact in order to divert more attention onto Primordus' forces instead of its own.
• Jormag sucking down the ley lines in the areas it attack/sitting on the ley line hub they connect to in order to further bolster its powers.

The narrative extensively showed Jormag's actions, tied then directly into most every major plot element of the arc, and pretty in depth explained why it would feel comfortable in facing Primordus head on now when it wouldn't previously. The only thing it didn't do is just have an NPC sit there and blurt it all out bluntly to the Commander like they're an idiot who can't see basic military strategy/build up simply for the sake of players who weren't paying attention.

Edited October 20, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Mykhel.6532]

On 10/20/2022 at 4:32 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag manipulating one of the Charr imperators to not only torpedo his own species' military forces, and political stability, but also simultaneously give itself a large army in the process. Especially when you consider the Charr are the most prominent military force among the 5 races.

Lmao. I guess the huge Sons of Svanir army just wasn't good enough. It's also noted proximity leads to influence. Jormag didn't manipulate crap at the beginning. Bangar willingly decided he wanted to go get a dragon... somehow (which makes zero sense) thinking he can tame an Elder Dragon... even when you say "people didn't understand the relationship between Aurene and the Commander," it's at least obvious the Commander had influence on her since BIRTH! Meaning the behavior was easily like a parent-child relationship. It was an idiotic move for the story to take. It made ZERO sense for them to do this. It was extremely obvious to anyone who knows barely anything about GW2 lore what would be the result. The Charr are master tacticians. They know war better than any other race... meaning even the dumbest Charr would've known Bangar's stupid idea NEVER would have worked... it made the Charr (and the writers) look stupid.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 4:32 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag copying Aurene's use of a Champion, which has obviously helped her greatly in her quest, to lead its forces.

Jormag didn't "copy" anything... All Elder Dragons had many champions throughout the game. Making them some pivotal point where they fought for them while the Elder Dragon sat back and fired "lazy" beams was a moronic way to exterminate the two in IBS... Also, Jormag's "quest?" You mean to kill Primordus for no other reason than he's a brute and for some reason they're "bonded?" By what? I guess Soo-Won didn't tell them their entire job was to "hold back the void" (complete ad hoc, bad writing) meaning, Jormag's "quest" was to doom the world, including itself. Pretty stupid for the most cunning dragon in the lore.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 4:32 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag sucking down the ley lines in the areas it attack/sitting on the ley line hub they connect to in order to further bolster its powers.

Again. All dragons did this. Even Zhaitan.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 4:32 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

and pretty in depth explained why it would feel comfortable in facing Primordus head on now when it wouldn't previously

What? In-depth? You mean there's a power imbalance and Jormag got more power so the scales are tilted? How's that "In-depth?" That's as simplistic as it gets. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the stupid story behind it that Jormag hates Primordus because...uh... they're fire and ice, DUH! Primordus is stupid or something... Then, they both get baited in the most obvious ploy in gaming history (mind you, these are two Elder Dragons that have lived for thousands of years, who have witnessed the rise and fall of countless nations) and then somehow get tied to their "Champions" and then poofed out of existence. Literally. It's like I asked an 8 year old to write how they die.

 

On 10/20/2022 at 4:32 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The only thing it didn't do is just have an NPC sit there and blurt it all out bluntly to the Commander like they're an idiot who can't see basic military strategy/build up simply for the sake of players who weren't paying attention.

You're right. As bad as the writing was for IBS, I guess at least they didn't do this...

Edited October 24, 2022 by Mykhel.6532

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Lmao. I guess the huge Sons of Svanir army just wasn't good enough. It's also noted proximity leads to influence. Jormag didn't manipulate crap at the beginning. Bangar willingly decided he wanted to go get a dragon... somehow (which makes zero sense) thinking he can tame an Elder Dragon... even when you say "people didn't understand the relationship between Aurene and the Commander," it's at least obvious the Commander had influence on her since BIRTH! Meaning the behavior was easily like a parent-child relationship. It was an idiotic move for the story to take. It made ZERO sense for them to do this. It was extremely obvious to anyone who knows barely anything about GW2 lore what would be the result. The Charr are master tacticians. They know war better than any other race... meaning even the dumbest Charr would've known Bangar's stupid idea NEVER would have worked... it made the Charr (and the writers) look stupid.

You seem mistaken about a few things here.

A. The Sons of Svanir aren't a huge army, they're are a minority group within the Norn culture. While the game overstates the Svanir presence for the sake of gameplay, the Svanir on their own weren't a huge army. Especially not one able to take on the Pact, or Primordus' Destroyers.

B. We know Jormag was manipulating Bangar. Not only does Bangar himself admit so during the conversations with him between Jormag Rising, and Champions, but in Bangar's office in Gromthar Valley there are two icebrood corrupted weapons, and one can find Boneskinner tracks outside his office window. Bangar was being manipulated from the beginning. This is why Jormag/its minions were ready to make the storms, and Icebrood Construct, in the pass leading into the mountains, to hinder the Commander's attempt to reach Bangar in "Bound By Blood"

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Jormag didn't "copy" anything... All Elder Dragons had many champions throughout the game. Making them some pivotal point where they fought for them while the Elder Dragon sat back and fired "lazy" beams was a moronic way to exterminate the two in IBS... Also, Jormag's "quest?" You mean to kill Primordus for no other reason than he's a brute and for some reason they're "bonded?" By what? I guess Soo-Won didn't tell them their entire job was to "hold back the void" (complete ad hoc, bad writing) meaning, Jormag's "quest" was to doom the world, including itself. Pretty stupid for the most cunning dragon in the lore.

This argument completely ignores there is a difference between normal champions, and the kind of champion the Commander, Caithe, Bangar, Ryland, and Braham, are/were. Normal champions are typically just magical constructs animated by the dragon's magic(Shatterer, Megadestroyer, Claw of Jormag, Tequatal), or otherwise just more powerful thralls. As Caithe herself points out she is connected, not corrupted. The Commander, and the others listed, retained some semblance of free will, and have proved incredibly beneficial to the Elder Dragons they served.

The beam thing was set up all the way back in Living World Season 3. Its literally the same thing Taimi's machine did. IBS just has the Elder Dragons doing it directly. And uhh... how else where they supposed to negate each other besides having their energies directly collide like that?

Also you conveniently ignore that the Elder Dragons have largely been driven mad by countless millennia of void influence on their minds. Being cunning doesn't stop you from being crazy, or acting against the interest of the world. It just means you do it very well.

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Again. All dragons did this. Even Zhaitan.

We actually never saw Zhaitan do this, since ley lines weren't introduced as a concept in the story until after its defeat.

Irregardless, it still doesn't change that Jormag was doing it to boost its power above Primordus' who wasn't actually awake until the very end of the arc, and thus didn't have time to do it as much himself before the final confrontation.

1 hour ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

What? In-depth? You mean there's a power imbalance and Jormag got more power so the scales are tilted? How's that "In-depth?" That's as simplistic as it gets. That wasn't the problem. The problem was the stupid story behind it that Jormag hates Primordus because...uh... they're fire and ice, DUH! Primordus is stupid or something... Then, they both get baited in the most obvious ploy in gaming history (mind you, these are two Elder Dragons that have lived for thousands of years, who have witnessed the rise and fall of countless nations) and then somehow get tied to their "Champions" and then poofed out of existence. Literally. It's like I asked an 8 year old to write how they die.

You don't seem to understand the difference between complex, and in-depth. What you describe here is that Jormag's plan wasn't complex. It was simple in that it was building power, an army, and a Champion, that gave it an edge over Primrodus. It being in-depth means the story tied the plan into the overall narrative throughout. You can have a simple plan told in an in-depth manner.

And Jormag hates Primordus because Primordus is a nearly mindless savage monster, and Jormag's whole existence is tied to it. Jormag wanted freedom, independence, something most people strive for.

Also Jormag didn't get baited, much less by something obvious. The place Dragonstorm happens is where Jormag already was, due to that being the nexus of the ley lines it was harvesting. Not to mention, Jormag planned to fight and kill Primordus anyways. That was the whole point of its actions. How was Jormag supposed to know Aurene could manipulate the energies of the Champions, once the Champions' connection to the Elder Dragons was broken, to force the two into a final battle? Especially since Aurene had never done it before, and even she admitted it was a long shot. That not being baited, much less into something obvious. That's just not being all knowing.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

It's also noted proximity leads to influence.

This is only in reference to Drakkar itself, in lead up to IBS, ArenaNet added some "Suspicious Travelers" throughout Shiverpeak maps that praise Jormag and if you're close to them, you can hear the Jormag whispers from Ep1 (though iirc they're played backwards).

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Jormag didn't manipulate crap at the beginning. Bangar willingly decided he wanted to go get a dragon...

It was confirmed by ArenaNet that the speech Jormag gives in the Icebrood Saga trailer is directed towards Bangar Ruinbringer and is based before the events of IBS. If you look closely you can find both a Corrupted Focus (icebrood skin focus) in his office, as well as Boneskinner footprints on the roof of the building. Jormag was 100% confirmed to be manipulating Bangar in the lead-up to IBS events.

Bangar even admits this in the post-Episode 4 Bangar talks:

Pact Commander: You think Jormag always just meant to use you?

Bangar Ruinbringer: I don't know... You asked me before this, I would have said no chance. No one "mind-controls" Bangar Ruinbringer.

Bangar Ruinbringer: But the way it played out... Was there an inflection point, a specific moment when...? If there was, I didn't know.

Bangar Ruinbringer: I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Funny thing: anybody mentioned whispers to Ryland? He genuinely seemed to have no idea what they were on about.

Bangar Ruinbringer: He might have been the one person Jormag DIDN'T whisper to. Yet Jormag chooses him... I think about that a lot.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Jormag doesn't make you do anything. It doesn't have to. All it has to do is persuade you to want what it wants.

Bangar Ruinbringer: And if you want it already? So much for the better. No need for whispers.

Bangar Ruinbringer: At this point, I think that's as much insight into Ryland Steelcatcher as you're ever gonna get.

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Jormag didn't "copy" anything... All Elder Dragons had many champions throughout the game. Making them some pivotal point where they fought for them while the Elder Dragon sat back and fired "lazy" beams was a moronic way to exterminate the two in IBS... Also, Jormag's "quest?" You mean to kill Primordus for no other reason than he's a brute and for some reason they're "bonded?" By what? I guess Soo-Won didn't tell them their entire job was to "hold back the void" (complete ad hoc, bad writing) meaning, Jormag's "quest" was to doom the world, including itself. Pretty stupid for the most cunning dragon in the lore.

Yes, and no.

What Jormag copied wasn't the existence of a champion - as you say, they've always been around and have been a dime a dozen for most Elder Dragons. Even Jormag has multiple within Icebrood Saga itself (Fraenir, Drakkar, Claw of Jormag).

What Jormag copied was the act of bonding instead of corrupting. Jormag was always unique among the Elder Dragons in that it didn't forcibly corrupt, but only corrupted the willing (Sons of Svanir's actions of spreading corruption aside). But Ryland and Bangar (and maybe Frost Legion - it's left unclear) were the first time that Jormag bonded instead of corrupted - leaving Bangar's and Ryland's free will totally untouched.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

3 hours ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Again. All dragons did this. Even Zhaitan.

We actually never saw Zhaitan do this, since ley lines weren't introduced as a concept in the story until after its defeat.

We do just not under the terminology of ley-lines. The Artesian Waters is a magic hub, which is exactly what ley-lines are, that Zhaitan was eating from.

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

On 10/20/2022 at 5:32 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

and pretty in depth explained why it would feel comfortable in facing Primordus head on now when it wouldn't previously.

You don't seem to understand the difference between complex, and in-depth. What you describe here is that Jormag's plan wasn't complex. It was simple in that it was building power, an army, and a Champion, that gave it an edge over Primrodus. It being in-depth means the story tied the plan into the overall narrative throughout. You can have a simple plan told in an in-depth manner.

Eh... to be fair, it was not explained in-depth all that much at all either. Because in the end, Jormag wasn't comfortable facing Primordus yet - or at least, it wasn't supposed to be. We had to lure them together, after all. Which we did by targeting the champions, which for some reason made them come out of hiding... Despite champions being a dime a dozen, and Jormag having the slightly-upper-hand at the start...

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And Jormag hates Primordus because Primordus is a nearly mindless savage monster, and Jormag's whole existence is tied to it. Jormag wanted freedom, independence, something most people strive for.

This isn't true, at least it isn't so simple as revealed with the legendary variants. Champions does a kitten poor attempt to explain the hatred, but the legendary variants go a bit more in-depth about it though not blatantly.

2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Also Jormag didn't get baited, much less by something obvious. The place Dragonstorm happens is where Jormag already was, due to that being the nexus of the ley lines it was harvesting. Not to mention, Jormag planned to fight and kill Primordus anyways. That was the whole point of its actions. How was Jormag supposed to know Aurene could manipulate the energies of the Champions, once the Champions' connection to the Elder Dragons was broken, to force the two into a final battle? Especially since Aurene had never done it before, and even she admitted it was a long shot. That not being baited, much less into something obvious. That's just not being all knowing.

This is... completely false.

The entire discussion before Dragonstorm is that the plan was to lure both Elder Dragons to the spot:

Aurene: The longer Braham is connected to Primordus, the more integrated they become... Until there's nothing left.

<Character name>: His sacrifice is a gamble, but what choice do we have? Taimi, can we count on Primordus showing up?

Councilor Vark: Research shows every location where the Frozen have appeared has a powerful ley line beneath it.

Taimi: Pinpoint where the ley lines intersect and lure the dragons there. We do that? BAM! We force them to collide.

Taimi: Our models revealed that Elder Dragons aren't just attracted to ley lines— they're literally magically connected to them.

Aurene: Not a call, or a scent— but as if it's actually pulling me toward it... A tether. I suspect it pulls both ways.

<Character name>: How can we change the direction of magic?

Aurene: How do you change the shape of light?

Taimi: (gasps) Prisms. If Aurene uses her prismatic powers to divert the magic—

Aurene: I can tap into the ley line and cut Jormag and Primordus off from any magic not their own.

Councilor Vark: And why exactly haven't we done this before?

Taimi: This is a final measure. There will be no second chances. Aurene, are you sure you want to, uh...

And the cinematic which shows the two Elder Dragons showing up also reaffirms this - Jormag is not present until Primordus is. The very beginning of the instance even begins with us clearing out destroyers, then Ryland shows up after.

So if anything was "already there" it was just a few destroyers.

Jormag did plan to fight and kill Primordus, but they wanted a very clear one-sided competition. They weren't going to attack Primordus until they had all the cards in their hand already. Aurene cutting their connection to the ley-lines at that nexus via the prisms (in an action that was basically the same thing Scarlet did with the Breachmaker but more refined), combined with us attacking Ryland, is what drove Jormag out from their hiding place.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

53 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We do just not under the terminology of ley-lines. The Artesian Waters is a magic hub, which is exactly what ley-lines are, that Zhaitan was eating from.

Except nothing states all magic hubs are from ley-lines. Zhaitan was powering up from the Artesian Waters in a manner similar to how other Elder Dragons did from ley-lines, yes, but the Artesian Waters are not stated, or even implied, to be the result of Ley-Lines. Its just a magical thing, like any number of other magical things in Guild Wars' setting.

53 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Eh... to be fair, it was not explained in-depth all that much at all either. Because in the end, Jormag wasn't comfortable facing Primordus yet - or at least, it wasn't supposed to be. We had to lure them together, after all. Which we did by targeting the champions, which for some reason made them come out of hiding... Despite champions being a dime a dozen, and Jormag having the slightly-upper-hand at the start...

Normal champions are a dime a dozen, but champions like the Commader, Caithe, Ryland, and Braham, are unique entities. They can't just be easily replaced. Entities with the level of perseverance, skill, and tactical know how, Ryland and the Commander possess aren't common. The game constantly hammers in how NOT common they are.

This is also not what happened at all. We attacked Jormag and Primordus as the spot we did because it was a Ley-Line hub and thus useful to the plan. Primordus was already heading toward Jormag under Braham's influence, since that was the whole reason Braham became Primordus' champion in the first place, and Jormag had already prepared to fight Primrodus via all the events previously in IBS. The fight between them was going to happen soon anyways, and Jormag had already made its preparations, we just picked the stage for it. It should've been ready long before Champions, that was the whole point of everything it did before Champions, getting ready.

53 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This isn't true, at least it isn't so simple as revealed with the legendary variants. Champions does a kitten poor attempt to explain the hatred, but the legendary variants go a bit more in-depth about it though not blatantly.

The Legendary variants do nothing but repeat the same things IBS and Champions said.

• Jormag doesn't like being bound to a basically mindless monster
• Jormag thinks the balance is a myth
• Jormag thinks it can alter the system/save the world

53 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jormag did plan to fight and kill Primordus, but they wanted a very clear one-sided competition. They weren't going to attack Primordus until they had all the cards in their hand already. Aurene cutting their connection to the ley-lines at that nexus via the prisms (in an action that was basically the same thing Scarlet did with the Breachmaker but more refined), combined with us attacking Ryland, is what drove Jormag out from their hiding place.

Uhh no. Jormag was already present before we cut them off from their connection to the ley-lines. This is even the stated order of the plan

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm_(story)

Quote

Gorrik: Right. Well, Jormag and Primordus are each other's weakness— like antisymbiotic organisms or polarized holomatrices.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/4/47/Talk_more_option_tango.png So we get them to clash and they'll destroy each other?

Gorrik: That's the hope. However, Jormag is aware of this outcome and will move to avoid it. Thus, the plan: lure both to a ley-line nexus, then cut them off from their magic source.

How exactly is Aurene supposed to cut them off from the Ley-Lines before the dragon is even there for her to target it?

Jormag showed up becuase we attacked Ryland, and we attacked Braham, who was bringing Primordus with him in the first place, whom Jormag wanted to kill and had already prepped to kill.

• Destoryers were there yes.
• The Destroyers were being led by Braham.
• Braham who became Primordus' champion.
• Braham who became Primordus' champion specifically to bring Primordus to Jormag so they could duke it out and kill each other.
• This ley-line hub being chosen becuase its the nexus of all the places the Icebrood/Svair, under Jormag's command, attacked.

The Destoryers were there becuase they were backtracking Jormag's forces via the Ley-Lines Jormag's forces were using. Jormag was in the area, just not at the absoulute exact spot we showed up. It was there, in that area.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Animism.7530]

Implying that the Mursaat are all dead. They are the OG villains and are great in both narrative and art design. 
They are also so self-interested that it doesn't really make sense for them all to be dead. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Animism.7530

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except nothing states all magic hubs are from ley-lines. Zhaitan was powering up from the Artesian Waters in a manner similar to how other Elder Dragons did from ley-lines, yes, but the Artesian Waters are not stated, or even implied, to be the result of Ley-Lines. Its just a magical thing, like any number of other magical things in Guild Wars' setting.

When ley-lines first got revealed, Scott McGough confirmed that "high ambient magic" was synonymous with ley-line presence. This is why even up into End of Dragons, every location of magical importance ends up being over a ley-line hub, such as the Harvest Temple or Anvil Rock.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Normal champions are a dime a dozen, but champions like the Commader, Caithe, Ryland, and Braham, are unique entities. They can't just be easily replaced. Entities with the level of perseverance, skill, and tactical know how, Ryland and the Commander possess aren't common. The game constantly hammers in how NOT common they are.

Herald champions can quite easily be replaced as evident by the fact that Jormag easily replaced Drakkar with Ryland within a few months tops.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This is also not what happened at all. We attacked Jormag and Primordus as the spot we did because it was a Ley-Line hub and thus useful to the plan. Primordus was already heading toward Jormag under Braham's influence, since that was the whole reason Braham became Primordus' champion in the first place, and Jormag had already prepared to fight Primrodus via all the events previously in IBS. The fight between them was going to happen soon anyways, and Jormag had already made its preparations, we just picked the stage for it. It should've been ready long before Champions, that was the whole point of everything it did before Champions, getting ready.

Jormag was indeed preparing to fight Primordus, but "all the events previously in IBS" firmly established that they wouldn't confront Primordus until they had a clear upper hand. This was why Jormag spent all of Champions finding more and more means to get stronger, from Aurene, to the Frozen, to Owl. But only the Frozen worked out in their favor - they weren't yet ready to take on Primordus. Jormag states this almost explicitly:

Jormag: That's why I need you. You know the prophecy: only Primordus can kill me. I won't risk taking him head-on.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag's_Madness

 

And it was constantly established by other NPCs that Jormag won't make a move against Primordus until they're ready (or until forced to, which is what Dragonstorm was).

Ryland Steelcatcher: Soon Jormag will be strong enough to face Primordus head on—and win. I'll see you in the world that comes after.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragon_Response_Mission:_Snowden_Drifts

Warmaster Jhavi Jorasdottir: We'll have to force the dragons into direct conflict. Jormag will try to avoid it, but with Aurene manipulating the ley lines, she can give them a nudge. We hope.

 

Story Journal: Neither would naturally face the other in combat, so we'd have to lure them to the same spot and force them to fight somehow.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm_(story)

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The Legendary variants do nothing but repeat the same things IBS and Champions said.

• Jormag doesn't like being bound to a basically mindless monster
• Jormag thinks the balance is a myth
• Jormag thinks it can alter the system/save the world

Not at all. There are two about the balance of myth, but the rest is mostly basically Jormag pleading to Primordus, before giving up on them:

• Why destroy something just to replace it?
• It's still alive, do you see? I can undo it.
• It's not silent—you aren't listening closely.
   

• It flickers behind his eyes...devouring him.
• Please say something, say anything.
   

• You wallow in entropy and call it renewal.
• It ruins them in seconds and lingers while they scream.
• There is no beauty here. It's obscene.
• It's gone. You unmade it. Why?
• As always, you've left me nothing to mourn.
• I see. You've embraced fatalism.
   
• Have I troubled you? Replace me, then.
• You let this happen. Never forget that.

Basically, it's showing Jormags reaction to Primordus succumbing to the Void's influence, becoming animalistic, which is very different from what IBS outright presents:

Jormag: Your balance that chains me to an animal. No thought! No reason! Imagine MY MIND, bound for all eternity to THAT!

That's just straight up fury towards Primordus, with the only reasoning for it being "Primordus is mindless" (which, ironically, destroyer activity is not mindless at all and neither is Primordus' - even as Jhavi said, Primordus would avoid confronting Jormag; if it was mindlessly seeking confrontation, it wouldn't).

IBS presents Jormag as hating Primordus because it's mindless, but the variants presents Jormag as hating Primordus because Primordus wouldn't stop killing mortals. They're tied together and similar reasoning, yes, but also pretty different - there's more depth to it with the variants.

In effect, if Primordus was mindlessly creating stuff, or just mindlessly sleeping, or what have you, Jormag wouldn't care. It's the fact that Primordus was constantly (and not necessarily mindlessly) killing mortals and creating destroyers as mockeries of them that it drove Jormag to hate Primordus so.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Uhh no. Jormag was already present before we cut them off from their connection to the ley-lines. This is even the stated order of the plan

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm_(story)

How exactly is Aurene supposed to cut them off from the Ley-Lines before the dragon is even there for her to target it?

The irony is that what you quoted proves your statement false. As Gorrik says:

Gorrik: That's the hope. However, Jormag is aware of this outcome and will move to avoid it. Thus, the plan: lure both to a ley-line nexus, then cut them off from their magic source.

The plan is to lure BOTH of them to a ley-line nexus.

Proving that Jormag is not present - which we can visibly see as Jormag shows up last.

 

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag showed up becuase we attacked Ryland, and we attacked Braham, who was bringing Primordus with him in the first place, whom Jormag wanted to kill and had already prepped to kill.

• Destoryers were there yes.
• The Destroyers were being led by Braham.
• Braham who became Primordus' champion.
• Braham who became Primordus' champion specifically to bring Primordus to Jormag so they could duke it out and kill each other.
• This ley-line hub being chosen becuase its the nexus of all the places the Icebrood/Svair, under Jormag's command, attacked.

The Destoryers were there becuase they were backtracking Jormag's forces via the Ley-Lines Jormag's forces were using. Jormag was in the area, just not at the absoulute exact spot we showed up. It was there, in that area.

The destroyers showed up before Braham. To quote the dialogue:

Crecia Stoneglow: Taimi picked a good spot.

Rytlock Brimstone: Good? Destroyers're crawling all over. And there's no dragons.

Crecia Stoneglow: They didn't make things easy. Clear out the fire bugs and make way for the prisms.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dragonstorm#Dialogue

Which again says, that Jormag was lured to the location. Braham didn't show up until we beat up Ryland.

1. Taimi scouted a ley-line nexus to use.
2. There were destroyers already present, we cleared them out to land the prisms. The prisms reverse the pull of the ley-lines, luring the dragons.
3. This lured Ryland there first, who seems to have been after the nexus beforehand anyways.
4. Then Braham showed up, with Primordus in tow.
5. Followed by Ryland returning with Jormag in tow.
6. Then we beat up the champions and cut them off from the Elder Dragons, which for some reason they kept reviving with magic instead of cutting losses (Primordus can be excused because Spirits influence, but why would Jormag bother), thus draining them until they were equally weak.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, Animism.7530 said:

Implying that the Mursaat are all dead. They are the OG villains and are great in both narrative and art design. 
They are also so self-interested that it doesn't really make sense for them all to be dead. 

GW1 did this already though, that's not a new thing for GW2. It's brought up that the Titans, when released, slaughtered a lot of the Mursaat that were alive still around the ring of fire.

[Animism.7530]

45 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

GW1 did this already though, that's not a new thing for GW2. It's brought up that the Titans, when released, slaughtered a lot of the Mursaat that were alive still around the ring of fire.

I'm aware. They're also brought up in GW2. It still doesn't make sense within GW1's story. 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Herald champions can quite easily be replaced as evident by the fact that Jormag easily replaced Drakkar with Ryland within a few months tops.

Drakkar wasn't the same sort of Champion as the Commander, Ryland, and Caithe. Drakkar was a standard champion like the Claw, Shatterer, and the Mordrem Guard Champions.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jormag was indeed preparing to fight Primordus, but "all the events previously in IBS" firmly established that they wouldn't confront Primordus until they had a clear upper hand.

Which they had by the time of Dragonstorm, which is why Jormag showed up. Even as the very dialogue you posted says

Quote

Ryland Steelcatcher: Soon Jormag will be strong enough to face Primordus head on—and win. I'll see you in the world that comes after.

You know like the 2-3 months after Ryland made this comment that Dragonstorm happened. You just shot yourself in the foot here.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Not at all. There are two about the balance of myth, but the rest is mostly basically Jormag pleading to Primordus, before giving up on them:

That's an interesting interpretation of those comments, one I wouldn't agree with at all.

• It ruins them in seconds and lingers while they scream.

• It's still alive, do you see? I can undo it.
• You wallow in entropy and call it renewal.
• I see. You've embraced fatalism.
• Why destroy something just to replace it?
• Cycles within cycles, grinding everything to dust.
• It's gone. You unmade it. Why?
• It's not silent—you aren't listening closely.
• It's so delicate, but it repeats itself forever.
• When the birds sing, the rot sets in.
• There is no beauty here. It's obscene.

Everything here references the Void, the Dragon Cycle, Jormag's wish to undo the cycle entirely, questioning why Aurene would undo the current Dragon Cycle only to make a new one, dumping on the world for only existing in this cursed cycle. None of these statements are directed at Primordus.

• You let this happen. Never forget that.

  Have I troubled you? Replace me, then.

  This is Jormag likely talking to Soo-Won, blaming her for setting up the whole cycle as it is, and basically telling her to replace Jormag if its caused so much trouble for her.

  It flickers behind his eyes...devouring him.

  Please say something, say anything.

These are the only ones I would say directly relate to Primordus. Even then, the first one is talking about the void educed madness in Primordus.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

That's just straight up fury towards Primordus, with the only reasoning for it being "Primordus is mindless" (which, ironically, destroyer activity is not mindless at all and neither is Primordus' - even as Jhavi said, Primordus would avoid confronting Jormag; if it was mindlessly seeking confrontation, it wouldn't).

Again this is not true. Animals like wolves are not truly intelligent creatures. They operate only on instinct, and necessity, yet they can form tactics and such. Desotryers can do what they do, which is really just VERY basic animalistic planning, and Primordus still be mindless as most people would define it.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

IBS presents Jormag as hating Primordus because it's mindless, but the variants presents Jormag as hating Primordus because Primordus wouldn't stop killing mortals. They're tied together and similar reasoning, yes, but also pretty different - there's more depth to it with the variants.

In effect, if Primordus was mindlessly creating stuff, or just mindlessly sleeping, or what have you, Jormag wouldn't care. It's the fact that Primordus was constantly (and not necessarily mindlessly) killing mortals and creating destroyers as mockeries of them that it drove Jormag to hate Primordus so.

Yes, Jormag totally cares that Primordus is just killing mortals. That's why Jormag has spent all the times since it awakening peacefully working with mortals to help them stop Primordus and not spent so much time just mass slaughtering everything in its path, ad lying it kitten off, like every other Elder Dragon..... ohh wait!

Jormag cares about mortal about as much as every other Elder Dragon, including Primordus, does. Aka not all besides pawns to get more power for itself. You have to be drinking the same Kool-Aid Bangar was drinking to think otherwise.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The irony is that what you quoted proves your statement false. As Gorrik says:

Except ti doesn't Jormag not being on the nexus itself doesn't change it being in the area. You don't seem to understand the difference between exact locations, and areas.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The destroyers showed up before Braham. To quote the dialogue

No one said they didn't. What is an advanced scouting for for 500 Alex?

Edited October 25, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Drakkar wasn't the same sort of Champion as the Commander, Ryland, and Caithe. Drakkar was a standard champion like the Claw, Shatterer, and the Mordrem Guard Champions.

No, this is blatantly false. It was set up very clearly that Drakkar, Glint, and the Great Destroyer all shared the same role - the role of a herald, which is where the rev elite spec name comes from - and purpose, and Bangar even isolated Drakkar out in the story as the champion of Jormag that he would replace.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Which they had by the time of Dragonstorm, which is why Jormag showed up. Even as the very dialogue you posted says

You know like the 2-3 months after Ryland made this comment that Dragonstorm happened. You just shot yourself in the foot here.

We actually don't have a solid timeframe for when Champions happens lorewise, and we can't say it matches real time perfectly either because if it did, the story journal entry for Champions would label the years 1333-1334 AE, instead it's just marked as 1333 AE. Further, the same commentary is made in Dragonstorm, as I highlighted with Jhavi and the story journal - but you conveniently ignored that.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

That's an interesting interpretation of those comments, one I wouldn't agree with at all.

• It ruins them in seconds and lingers while they scream.

• It's still alive, do you see? I can undo it.
• You wallow in entropy and call it renewal.
• I see. You've embraced fatalism.
• Why destroy something just to replace it?
• Cycles within cycles, grinding everything to dust.
• It's gone. You unmade it. Why?
• It's not silent—you aren't listening closely.
• It's so delicate, but it repeats itself forever.
• When the birds sing, the rot sets in.
• There is no beauty here. It's obscene.

Everything here references the Void, the Dragon Cycle, Jormag's wish to undo the cycle entirely, questioning why Aurene would undo the current Dragon Cycle only to make a new one, dumping on the world for only existing in this cursed cycle. None of these statements are directed at Primordus.

Why would Jormag be addressing the Void, which didn't have personality or interaction with the Elder Dragons until EoD? How could Jormag "undo" Void? Some of those are definitely referring to the Dragon Cycle, but I don't see any reference to Aurene here. And neither Void nor Aurene "embraced fatalism" - after all Void has no persona to be doing the embracing, while Aurene was very clearly never for that.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You let this happen. Never forget that.

• Have I troubled you? Replace me, then.

  This is Jormag likely talking to Soo-Won, blaming her for setting up the whole cycle as it is, and basically telling her to replace Jormag if its caused so much trouble for her.

I could sort of see the first one referring to Soo-Won, but there's never any reason to suggest that Jormag put blame on Soo-Won.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Again this is not true. Animals like wolves are not truly intelligent creatures. They operate only on instinct, and necessity, yet they can form tactics and such. Desotryers can do what they do, which is really just VERY basic animalistic planning, and Primordus still be mindless as most people would define it.

Pretty much every zoologist and pet owner would highly disagree with your statements about animals. I mean, your statement is straight up contradictory - only rely on instinct with no true intelligence, but they form tactics? Tactics is intelligence beyond instinct by its very nature.

And destroyers do more than "basic animalistic planning". In fact, the destroyer in the Metrica DRM is the one of very few dragon champions to be seen retreating once the tide of battle is against it.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Except ti doesn't Jormag not being on the nexus itself doesn't change it being in the area. You don't seem to understand the difference between exact locations, and areas.

As you said:

Also Jormag didn't get baited, much less by something obvious. The place Dragonstorm happens is where Jormag already was, due to that being the nexus of the ley lines it was harvesting.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/114928-whats-gw2s-biggest-lore-mistake-according-to-you/?do=findComment&comment=1785647

This simply isn't true, the quotes establish that Jormag was being lured to the nexus which was chosen by Taimi. And you're now being vague as to what "in the area" could even mean - and without a source, I might add. That said, if Jormag was in the area, how did Taimi know, when Aurene stated she couldn't locate Jormag because they were using the Mists to move around:

Aurene: I wish I knew. I sense Jormag moving through Tyria, taking advantage of the Mists as Kralkatorrik did.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/One_Charr,_One_Dragon,_One_Champion#Epilogue

If you do have a source that Jormag was in the area, please do share. So far, the only source you included was actually countering your claim.

1 hour ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No one said they didn't. What is an advanced scouting for for 500 Alex?

Ah, yes, the intelligent tactics of the mindless, advanced scouting...

And, what, pray tell, is your source on this claim?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

2 hours ago, Animism.7530 said:

I'm aware. They're also brought up in GW2. It still doesn't make sense within GW1's story. 

It rather does. We tore through numerous outposts and fortifications the mursaat had set up, utterly obliterating their leadership (Optimus Caliph) and their military through the combined use of True Sight and Infused armor. Then the titans got unleashed and the lich sent them to hunt down those that remained via portals.

A handful managed to survive, and when the titan threat was gone they came out of hiding attempting to regain their influence on human politics, and we cut those down, only Lazarus managing to survive in the end.

And in GW2, we hunt down and kill Lazarus, the last mursaat.

 

The mursaat were greedy, egotistical, and above all, overconfident and that became their undoing.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

No, this is blatantly false. It was set up very clearly that Drakkar, Glint, and the Great Destroyer all shared the same role - the role of a herald, which is where the rev elite spec name comes from - and purpose, and Bangar even isolated Drakkar out in the story as the champion of Jormag that he would replace.

You seem incredibly confused about all of this.

1. Ryland, the Commander, Caithe, and Braham aren't heralds, they're Dragon champions. They're champions with the difference of not being truly corrupted by the Elder Dragons, but instead are connected to them.
2. Drakkar is just a corrupted minion like many other dragon champions.
3. The Great Destroyer is, likewise, just a thing Primordus made like the Megadestoryer, or the other Destroyer champions.
4. Glint, Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer, were heralds yes, but that isn't the same thing as the kind of champion Ryland, the Commander, Caithe, and Braham are. None of them have the same free will, and connect/not corrupted status, the "champions" like the Commander have. The Megadestoryer, or any major destroyer construct could've been Primordus' herald champion if it wanted it to be. Same goes for Drakkar. Drakkar just happened to be useful due to having survived the cycle and the passage of time. Likewise, Glint didn't have free will until the Forgotten used the magic to purify her, showing even she was largely just another dragon champion, and not the same sort of thing to Kralk as Caithe, the Commander, Ryland, and Braham, are to their connected Elder Dragons.
5. Jormag was manipulating Bangar from the get-go and telling him everything he wanted to hear. He literally had no idea what was actually going on.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We actually don't have a solid timeframe for when Champions happens lorewise, and we can't say it matches real time perfectly either because if it did, the story journal entry for Champions would label the years 1333-1334 AE, instead it's just marked as 1333 AE. Further, the same commentary is made in Dragonstorm, as I highlighted with Jhavi and the story journal - but you conveniently ignored that.

I didn't ignore it, its just contradicted by Jormag's own words, Ryland's own words, and Jormag's whole plan throughout Icebrood Saga, and achievements from Drizzlewood coast!

If Joramg would avoid fighting Primordus, and the two would never "naturally" fight each other...

1. Why does Ryland mention Jormag planning to fight Primordus and defeat him?
2. Why does Braham, bordering on losing himself to Primordus, constantly talk about wanting to "kill ice"
3. Why does the "shards of Jormag" achievement in Drizzlewood coast say "Long ago, Primordus struck Jormag in battle and littered the Drizzlewood Coast in shards."

The idea that they wouldn't fight is directly contradicted by the ENTIRE rest of IBS. Including dialogue from Jormag's own champion!

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Why would Jormag be addressing the Void, which didn't have personality or interaction with the Elder Dragons until EoD? How could Jormag "undo" Void? Some of those are definitely referring to the Dragon Cycle, but I don't see any reference to Aurene here. And neither Void nor Aurene "embraced fatalism" - after all Void has no persona to be doing the embracing, while Aurene was very clearly never for that.

1. I never said Jormag was addressing the Void, I said Jormag was referencing it. You can talk about space without talking TOO space you know?
2. Jormag talked about undoing the dragon cycle.
3. In Jormag's eyes Aurene did embrace fatalism. She embraced the idea of balance, which Jormag considered false. She embraced the idea of the cycle, which Jormag flatly rejected. Aurene embraced the idea of "keeping things mostly the same" whereas Jormag wanted to tear down the whole system.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

I could sort of see the first one referring to Soo-Won, but there's never any reason to suggest that Jormag put blame on Soo-Won.

There's no reason to assume Jormag didn't put the blame on Soo-Won since Soo-Won not only made them all, but also created the cycle as we know it. Hell, Soo-Won blames herself, and admits her own part in it all.

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Pretty much every zoologist and pet owner would highly disagree with your statements about animals. I mean, your statement is straight up contradictory - only rely on instinct with no true intelligence, but they form tactics? Tactics is intelligence beyond instinct by its very nature.

And destroyers do more than "basic animalistic planning". In fact, the destroyer in the Metrica DRM is the one of very few dragon champions to be seen retreating once the tide of battle is against it.

And most animals know how to retreat when facing a superior foe. Wow, it shows the intelligence of a bird!

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

This simply isn't true, the quotes establish that Jormag was being lured to the nexus which was chosen by Taimi. And you're now being vague as to what "in the area" could even mean - and without a source, I might add. That said, if Jormag was in the area, how did Taimi know, when Aurene stated she couldn't locate Jormag because they were using the Mists to move around:

well now you're just trying to use dialogue from before Champions to describe what Jormag was doing during Champions. You should immediately see why this is a flawed argument?

3 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ah, yes, the intelligent tactics of the mindless, advanced scouting...

And, what, pray tell, is your source on this claim?

Literally the entire premise of Braham becoming bound to Primordus, was to lure the dragon into a fight with Jormag so Jormag and Primordus could wipe each other out.

Taimi, and Vark, even mention that

1. Fire and ice forces have been clashing with increasing frequency. This happening after Braham becomes Primordus' champion, and begins leading him to Jormag so they can fight.
2. Every single place the Icebrood have attacked has a ley-line under it.
3. Dragons are magically connected to Ley-Lines.
4. The place we're going is where all the Ley-Lines the Icebrood have gone for meet.

What do you think Braham, and the Destroyers/Primordus he was leading were doing? He was following the kitten trail backward to Jormag. You think he was just going around to places for shits and giggles?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

You seem incredibly confused about all of this.

1. Ryland, the Commander, Caithe, and Braham aren't heralds, they're Dragon champions. They're champions with the difference of not being truly corrupted by the Elder Dragons, but instead are connected to them.
2. Drakkar is just a corrupted minion like many other dragon champions.
3. The Great Destroyer is, likewise, just a thing Primordus made like the Megadestoryer, or the other Destroyer champions.
4. Glint, Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer, were heralds yes, but that isn't the same thing as the kind of champion Ryland, the Commander, Caithe, and Braham are. None of them have the same free will, and connect/not corrupted status, the "champions" like the Commander have. The Megadestoryer, or any major destroyer construct could've been Primordus' herald champion if it wanted it to be. Same goes for Drakkar. Drakkar just happened to be useful due to having survived the cycle and the passage of time. Likewise, Glint didn't have free will until the Forgotten used the magic to purify her, showing even she was largely just another dragon champion, and not the same sort of thing to Kralk as Caithe, the Commander, Ryland, and Braham, are to their connected Elder Dragons.
5. Jormag was manipulating Bangar from the get-go and telling him everything he wanted to hear. He literally had no idea what was actually going on.

• 1 is debatable. 4 is mostly yes. Glint, Drakkar, and the Great Destroyer are heralds - which are more than "just a thing made" or "just another champion". Similarly, Ryland, Commander, and Braham serve the role of herald (Braham literally heralding Primordus awake). Braham wasn't bonded, however, but corrupted with the Spirits protecting him giving him a waning degree of free will. The only notable difference between Commander, Ryland, and the older heralds is that they're bonded heralds rather than corrupted heralds; similarly the only notable difference between Braham and older heralds is that he's got the Spirits' protection giving him a resemblance of being bonded.
• Furthermore, being bonded is nothing special to the Elder Dragon, there's no evidence that bonded champions shares any additional benefit - other than a slightly smarter champion - than corrupted champions.
• 2 and 3 are false. These two champions were given the task of preparing the way for their Elder Dragon to rise, like Glint was. Devs have even call them heralds. This was why The Great Destroyer's death delayed Primordus' awakening back in GW1, and why Glint's betrayal delayed Kralkatorrik's. There's unproven theory that the risen Giganticus Lupicus, confirmed by devs to be from the previous dragonrise, was Zhaitan's herald. And it's also established that the Great Destroyer was the strongest of Primordus' champions, as was Glint for Kralkatorrik, and while Drakkar wasn't the strongest it was unique in that it had the Whisper of Jormag, a piece of Jormag's essence, in its body.
• I agree with 5, however that doesn't change the fact that Bangar was seeking to replace Drakkar's role as "champion" and didn't care about other dragon champions like the Claw of Jormag that was flying over Bjora and Drizzlewood.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Drakkar's death at my hands sends them all a message: I am Jormag's champion now. I alone can control the dragon.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I didn't ignore it, its just contradicted by Jormag's own words, Ryland's own words, and Jormag's whole plan throughout Icebrood Saga, and achievements from Drizzlewood coast!

If Joramg would avoid fighting Primordus, and the two would never "naturally" fight each other...

That isn't what I said. I said - as Ryland said - that Jormag wasn't going to confront Primordus by choice until they had a very clear one-sided advantage over the other. Jormag (and Ryland) repeatedly stated that they were never going to leave it to chance. And this is what Jhavi said - there is no contradiction like you claim.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

I never said Jormag was addressing the Void, I said Jormag was referencing it. You can talk about space without talking TOO space you know?

Then who is Jormag talking to when they say things like:

You wallow in entropy and call it renewal.
It's gone, you unmade it. Why?

Who's wallowing in entropy? Who unmade something and why would Jormag ask them why?

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Jormag talked about undoing the dragon cycle.

Except they aren't:

It's still alive, do you see? I can undo it.
Why destroy something just to replace it.

They are clearly talking about someone since it's "alive", and who's replacing the cycle - clearly Aurene isn't. Void isn't replacing anything either. Soo-Won didn't either.

And if I'm getting the relations wrong, you're going to need to be more specific than quoting them all and say "they're about this, this, and that" since clearly things aren't in equal order (your way of wording implies top of your list is referencing the Void, middle was the cycle, and bottom was Aurene).

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

In Jormag's eyes Aurene did embrace fatalism. She embraced the idea of balance, which Jormag considered false. She embraced the idea of the cycle, which Jormag flatly rejected. Aurene embraced the idea of "keeping things mostly the same" whereas Jormag wanted to tear down the whole system.

Hmm, debatable but possible. Given the context of the others though, tseems far more likely that it's all referring to Primordus, who's embraced the act of killing and replacing.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

There's no reason to assume Jormag didn't put the blame on Soo-Won since Soo-Won not only made them all, but also created the cycle as we know it. Hell, Soo-Won blames herself, and admits her own part in it all.

There's no reason to assume Jormag did though.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

well now you're just trying to use dialogue from before Champions to describe what Jormag was doing during Champions. You should immediately see why this is a flawed argument?

The premise is still kept throughout Champions, however, that Jormag is not staying put and is moving around.

5 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Literally the entire premise of Braham becoming bound to Primordus, was to lure the dragon into a fight with Jormag so Jormag and Primordus could wipe each other out.

Taimi, and Vark, even mention that

1. Fire and ice forces have been clashing with increasing frequency. This happening after Braham becomes Primordus' champion, and begins leading him to Jormag so they can fight.
2. Every single place the Icebrood have attacked has a ley-line under it.
3. Dragons are magically connected to Ley-Lines.
4. The place we're going is where all the Ley-Lines the Icebrood have gone for meet.

What do you think Braham, and the Destroyers/Primordus he was leading were doing? He was following the kitten trail backward to Jormag. You think he was just going around to places for shits and giggles?

So Fireheart Rise was following Jormag, and then backtracking to the Shiverpeaks after going to other places causing high death tolls across Tyria?

Sounds like either Braham was just hunting icebrood and not Jormag, or Jormag was moving around too. Hmm, funny, that's what Aurene said Jormag was doing just before Champions, which you say is a flawed argument. Interesting.

 

And this talks absolutely nothing sourcing destroyers being sent to scout ahead... So once again, you make a claim and provide no links, no quotes, no source.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086

[Mykhel.6532]

21 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

It was confirmed by ArenaNet that the speech Jormag gives in the Icebrood Saga trailer is directed towards Bangar Ruinbringer and is based before the events of IBS. If you look closely you can find both a Corrupted Focus (icebrood skin focus) in his office, as well as Boneskinner footprints on the roof of the building. Jormag was 100% confirmed to be manipulating Bangar in the lead-up to IBS events.

Bangar even admits this in the post-Episode 4 Bangar talks:

Still... it's not plausible in any sense that the Charr would believe this idiot. Imperator or not. This is so unbelievably fringe.

 

21 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

What Jormag copied was the act of bonding instead of corrupting.

Except no bonding took place here. They sought one thing and one thing alone: power. A bond insinuates a partnership; similar to the Commander and Aurene. Even though it is very likely Aurene could obliterate the Commander, she treats them almost like an equal and like a friend. It was the exact same thing as the SoS; Manipulation through the allure of power and temptation is not, nor should it ever be construed, as "bonding."

 

Always appreciate your well-thought comments, Konig.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

30 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Still... it's not plausible in any sense that the Charr would believe this idiot. Imperator or not. This is so unbelievably fringe.

Every member of the Dominion sans Ryland were being influenced by Drakkar's / Jormag's whispers. Persuading them that it is possible; persuading them to believe him, just as he was persuaded.

Bangar Ruinbringer: I never felt for one second like my mind wasn't my own. But... I heard the whispers. Maybe that's all it takes.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Funny thing: anybody mentioned whispers to Ryland? He genuinely seemed to have no idea what they were on about.

Bangar Ruinbringer: He might have been the one person Jormag DIDN'T whisper to. Yet Jormag chooses him... I think about that a lot.

Bangar Ruinbringer: Jormag doesn't make you do anything. It doesn't have to. All it has to do is persuade you to want what it wants.

Bangar Ruinbringer: And if you want it already? So much for the better. No need for whispers.

30 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said:

Except no bonding took place here. They sought one thing and one thing alone: power. A bond insinuates a partnership; similar to the Commander and Aurene. Even though it is very likely Aurene could obliterate the Commander, she treats them almost like an equal and like a friend. It was the exact same thing as the SoS; Manipulation through the allure of power and temptation is not, nor should it ever be construed, as "bonding."

Ryland retained his free will and it got brought up a handful of times that Ryland was bonded, in a partnership, with Jormag. Ryland, unlike the rest of the Dominion, was not influenced by whispers.

Voice of Jormag: Yes. Yes, just so I suppose. I admit, now that I have one of my own, I understand the appeal of such a partnership.

Aurene: So Ryland is still with you.

Voice of Jormag: Of course. He's surprisingly easy to talk to—and an excellent strategist.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bangar_Ruinbringer#During_the_Confer_with_Bangar_achievemen

 

[Lord Korag.8439]

17 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ryland retained his free will and it got brought up a handful of times that Ryland was bonded, in a partnership, with Jormag. Ryland, unlike the rest of the Dominion, was not influenced by whispers.

I see Ryland´s free will more like a illusion of one. As Elder Dragon of Persuasion Jormag is great manipulator. Ryland would probably believe he has free will even if he would be controled to the core. As Braham stated: "Jormag lies. That´s the whole point." And let me add another Braham citation from DS: "We are Primordus." And as Braham was Primordus, so, indeed, was Ryland Jormag. Also, let me point out that Braham was shielded from the full Primordus´s influence by the Spirits of the wild, Ryland recieved full dose of Jormag mental massage and for much longer time. As for the whispers, Ryland himself never stated if he hears them or not, so we can only debate.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

3 hours ago, Lord Korag.8439 said:

I see Ryland´s free will more like a illusion of one. As Elder Dragon of Persuasion Jormag is great manipulator. Ryland would probably believe he has free will even if he would be controled to the core. As Braham stated: "Jormag lies. That´s the whole point." And let me add another Braham citation from DS: "We are Primordus." And as Braham was Primordus, so, indeed, was Ryland Jormag. Also, let me point out that Braham was shielded from the full Primordus´s influence by the Spirits of the wild, Ryland recieved full dose of Jormag mental massage and for much longer time. As for the whispers, Ryland himself never stated if he hears them or not, so we can only debate.

Braham was corrupted, however, with only a steadily decreasing protection from the Spirits of the Wild.

Ryland was, by all indication, bonded - just as Bangar, who spat on both Jormag and Ryland after being bonded. This is more similar to Commander and Caithe, who are indeed not Aurene.

Jormag has always been unique in that it corrupted those who were willing, but corrupted are corrupted - they have no free will, the key difference between bonded and corrupted. This lead to many icebrood having similar personalities before and after corrupted. With Ryland, the reason we know that Jormag did not control Ryland directly comes from Bangar's words: Ryland never heard whispers, and said that Ryland was baffled when people talked about hearing whispers. Ryland may not tell us, but he told others who told us.

Now this lack of whispers could be Jormag's manipulation - some have theorized that everyone else had whispers telling them to act in such a way so as to twist Ryland into wanting to work with Jormag (e.g., theorized that Jormag whispered to Smodur to kill Cinder during the negotiations), in which case corrupting was not necessary and thus Jormag could freely bond Ryland instead. And in Champions, we see evidence that Ryland was bonded, not corrupted, because he acted in ways counter to Jormag's own behavior and motives, though they shared the same goal of ending Primordus. Similarly after Jormag's death, Ryland's personality doesn't differ from while bonded nor before being bonded - which runs counter to any risen we witness after Zhaitan's death, who's minds are still affected by Zhaitan's mentality and goals.

 

I think it's pretty likely that, even if Ryland was manipulated into wanting to become Jormag's champion and herald, that they were bonded rather than corrupted as it is said by Aurene, Jormag, and Ryland.

[Mykhel.6532]

On 10/25/2022 at 1:28 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Ryland retained his free will and it got brought up a handful of times that Ryland was bonded, in a partnership, with Jormag. Ryland, unlike the rest of the Dominion, was not influenced by whispers

I will never believe for one second Ryland still had his free will, nor Bangar.

 

On 10/25/2022 at 1:28 PM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Every member of the Dominion sans Ryland were being influenced by Drakkar's / Jormag's whispers. Persuading them that it is possible; persuading them to believe him, just as he was persuaded.

Had this taken place before the first Dragons fell, I'd believe it. Hell, had they been closer like the prior with Jhavi, I might have given them credit. However, there were several unique ways they could've gone with this story. They chose the 8 year old fan fiction way.