Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 8 minutes ago, Mykhel.6532 said: I will never believe for one second Ryland still had his free will, nor Bangar. Had this taken place before the first Dragons fell, I'd believe it. Hell, had they been closer like the prior with Jhavi, I might have given them credit. However, there were several unique ways they could've gone with this story. They chose the 8 year old fan fiction way. The entire point of Jormag's narrative in IBS is that they were changing their tactics and adapting because the other Elder Dragons were being killed. It's why they opened dialogue with the Commander and Aurene, and why they took Ryland and Bangar in a way that mirrored Aurene's relation to the Commander and Caithe, albeit in a twisted way - still twisted despite adapting for survival because at the end of the day, Jormag was still too disconnected from mortals to be redeemed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valfar.3761 Posted October 31, 2022 Share Posted October 31, 2022 In August I created a new character and went through the entire GW2 storyline from start to finish. Biggest problem IMO is the lack of stakes. The first 1/3rd of GW2 had me invested. Zhaitan felt threatening. I played a Charr. Zhaitan desecrated my warband buddy, and then killed my mentor, and then I lost several people under my command and had the unenviable task of telling a woman that she is now a widow. Scarlet burns down a city. In the Mordremoth story arc, Mordrem were hunting down the Master of Peace and his disciples and I was racing against time to save them, and then the Pact fleet got wiped out, and I had to kill my comrade Traehearne. After HoT, there is no stakes. The Pact is inexplicably alive and functioning despite having been said to have been destroyed at the end of HoT. We kill four more Elder Dragons but the only character who dies is Blish, a side character who was introduced two episodes prior to his death. Aurene dies but is then immediately brought back 3 minutes later. (dead characters casually coming back is a recurring trend in PoF and season 4). Braham mind melds with an ancient Elder Dragon and is even visibly corrupted by him, but then returns to normal a few hours later as if nothing had happened at all. There is fake melodrama about how one character has a terminal illness which is hyped up for years but never amounts to anything. The game climaxes in a world ending apocalypse in which no cities are wiped out and literally no one dies. A bratty Sylvari girl dealt more damage than the Dragonvoid, the amalgamation of the six Elder Dragons combined. 😞 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 (edited) On 10/30/2022 at 8:31 PM, Valfar.3761 said: The Pact is inexplicably alive and functioning despite having been said to have been destroyed at the end of HoT. I just want to clarify this one bit: it is the Pact Fleet that is destroyed during HoT - the airships. Further, both Core and Season 2 establish that the Pact has bases beyond their primary campaign. Further, we do not witness the Pact again (in the main story) until Season 4 Episode 5 - nearly two years after the destruction of the Pact Fleet, more than enough time for them to recover, and it's made aware that they're a shadow of their S2/HoT-sized self which was the foundation of needing reinforcements from throughout Elona. In Season 3, while we meet members of the Orders (mainly the Vigil), these were not members of the Pact - the Orders didn't go full ham in merging into the Pact, but rather treated the Pact as a joint operation, giving resources and troops to serve under the Pact's leadership (originally Trahearne). The only time we meet Pact soldiers before Season 4 is during Knight of the Thorn, and it's just a handful stationed in Orr as part of the Orrian cleanup campaign, who were spared from the Pact Fleet's destruction due to not being part of it. On 10/30/2022 at 8:31 PM, Valfar.3761 said: We kill four more Elder Dragons but the only character who dies is Blish, a side character who was introduced two episodes prior to his death. Aurene dies but is then immediately brought back 3 minutes later. (dead characters casually coming back is a recurring trend in PoF and season 4). Braham mind melds with an ancient Elder Dragon and is even visibly corrupted by him, but then returns to normal a few hours later as if nothing had happened at all. Almorra also died in Icebrood Saga, and I think that counts for something. She wasn't of the main cast, but showed up frequently enough to be practically a regular. But it is a really big issue that after Heart of Thorns - through three LW Seasons and two expansions - that there were only two (permanent) main character deaths in the game. Not to say that character deaths are required to raise the stakes - Lord of the Rings is a perfect example of raising stakes without killing off characters, as the only main character death to take place is Boromir, at the end of the first movie. There are three major fake-outs (Gandalf, Aragorn, and Frodo each) but the first one has heavy weight (being the first "death" the party faces over two-thirds into the first movie and isn't replaced until a third into the second movie), the second wasn't very heavy, but the third served a good narrative purpose that raised tension by being resolved - the complete opposite of what you'd expect from death fake-outs). But the fact that none of the death fake-outs really had that kind of weight, being there then solved instantly without any tension (unless you were around for the original 3 month wait for the next episode in one particular case), is a major issue in of itself. Edited November 1, 2022 by Konig Des Todes.2086 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 I think Mai Trin's death was pretty significant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 1, 2022 Share Posted November 1, 2022 On 10/30/2022 at 8:31 PM, Valfar.3761 said: After HoT, there is no stakes. The Pact is inexplicably alive and functioning despite having been said to have been destroyed at the end of HoT. The game climaxes in a world ending apocalypse in which no cities are wiped out and literally no one dies. A bratty Sylvari girl dealt more damage than the Dragonvoid, the amalgamation of the six Elder Dragons combined. 😞 Part A: nobody said the Pact was destroyed, just that the fleet was destroyed. Much like the gap from PS to end of Season 2, the Pact is then off-screen rebuilding and recruiting. The dragonvoid world wide part was maybe... an hour long attack? If that? As it doesn't trigger until the extractor is used on Soo-Won, after which the final fight happens. "A bratty Sylvari" aka Scarlet had an entire day, or at least half a day of attacking to bring LA to rubble, and looting/burning it during the day to week it took the wind to blow out all the toxin and allow a counter attack, and this was after the various alliances did their own attacks scattered all over. We stopped the world ending Apocalypse as it was forming, before it actually could cause true wide-spread horrific damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anninke.7469 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 13 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said: I think Mai Trin's death was pretty significant. Was it? I mean she was someone we barely knew, so while her death might have been significant for the story, it certainly didn't feel personally significant. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 1 hour ago, anninke.7469 said: Was it? I mean she was someone we barely knew, so while her death might have been significant for the story, it certainly didn't feel personally significant. It felt impactful though and she was a long time character, this is sorta straying into subjectivity at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Konig Des Todes.2086 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 19 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said: I think Mai Trin's death was pretty significant. I was more specifying good guy significant deaths, and Mai Trin being significant overall is a rather debatable thing - she played a big role in EoD Act 2 for sure, but that's about it. 3 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said: It felt impactful though and she was a long time character, this is sorta straying into subjectivity at this point. I'm not sure she should be considered a long time character. That implies that she had a lot of story behind her, but she showed up in Sky pirates with a very short cameo during Cutthroat Politics (no dialogue) and Sky Pirates, and then vanished for 9 years before being a significant part of EoD Act 2. Most players "know her for a long time" only because of the one fractal, which is just repeating the same instance from Sky Pirates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anninke.7469 Posted November 2, 2022 Share Posted November 2, 2022 5 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said: It felt impactful though and she was a long time character, this is sorta straying into subjectivity at this point. Of course it's subjective. Because "feeling impactful" is just as subjective. Being a long time character doesn't bring significance itself. We, as the players or at least as the commander, must subjectively care about said character for them and their fate to have impact. The commander didn't really seem to care much. I, as a player, don't care either, as she did nothing that would make me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeeracK.3601 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 Retconning the bloodstones from something that was a story of the gods sealing the magic away to being something the seers made to fight elder dragons. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miriforst.1290 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 (edited) 4 hours ago, TeeracK.3601 said: Retconning the bloodstones from something that was a story of the gods sealing the magic away to being something the seers made to fight elder dragons. It was a neat combinatation of story and gameplay. Sort of a reversal of the tower of babylon thing where the builders where given different languages so they could not complete the monument. Instead, here cooperation is required to utilize all the aspects of magic. Had a neat mythological tone to it and working excellent in a coorpg setting with professions. Of course the secondary profession muddied the thing somewhat. The greatest corrupting influence the lizards exert is on the worldbuilding. Edited November 15, 2022 by miriforst.1290 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EdwinLi.1284 Posted November 15, 2022 Share Posted November 15, 2022 There is just far too many that I can list since I have played GW since GW1 days and even started GW2 on day 1 release. I just don't know which to pick and just been going with the flow on what being going on with GW2 story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drakz.7051 Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 What I think is their biggest lore mistake would be that they don't seem to have had a plan for the story as a whole which causes a whole mess of lore inconsistency. Biggest for me though is how they dealt with the gods, it just felt like they had to come up with something to get them out of the picture so slapped together what we ended up with in some kind of last second rush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 14 hours ago, Drakz.7051 said: What I think is their biggest lore mistake would be that they don't seem to have had a plan for the story as a whole which causes a whole mess of lore inconsistency. Biggest for me though is how they dealt with the gods, it just felt like they had to come up with something to get them out of the picture so slapped together what we ended up with in some kind of last second rush. I mean, they've had plans for each chapter. Also, the gods not being present isn't that different from GW1. I think people vastly overstate the presence of the gods in GW1 compared to GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Val.7826 Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 I don't really get what you mean with "lore mistake", and I think I am a bit OT, but I'll write a couple of my complaining about the story line anyway. 1) The avatar of Mordremoth in his mind was quite disappointing, estetically speaking, still, not a real lore mistake 2) The missed opportunity to make some dramatic moments like they did with Blish making Rytlock and/or Braham die during IBS, Braham more because it has sense for him to die after that 3) The fact that the IBS was more a charr thing and less a norn thing 4) The sudden apparition of stone summit dwarfs that was supposed to be extinct 5) Mei Trin in EoD deserved more space and time, especially thanks to the revenant of Scarlet thing (I loved that), but she died too soon instead, terrible waste, she should have lived more, probably the NPC I appreciated most in this expansion 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbru.6014 Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 The completely unexplained return of the dwarfs during IBS. Killing off Blish, who could have been the single most interesting character ever made in GW2. Creating a world full of Charr steam tanks, Pact ariships, Vigil megalasers, firearms and artillery and magic and explosions of all kinds, which in reality ended close formations and melee combat as primary modes of warfare a long time ago. But despite the military unreality of it all, for some reason the main mode of combat in GW2 is a melee range infantry boon pile. Making Norn too much like humans. Norn are just EverQuest's Barbarians in a different game; they're both just big dumb drunk humans with a pseudo Nordic-Celtic culture, and little to really separate them from humans other than their size. I honestly think the game would have been better off if Norn had simply been left as NPCs. Not including Tengu as a playable race from the start. They were the first non-humans we encountered in GW1, for Zinn's sake. I'd trade Norn for Tengu in a heartbeat. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Greyhawk.9107 Posted November 19, 2022 Share Posted November 19, 2022 2 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said: They were the first non-humans we encountered in GW1... You know, right after all those other non-humans we encountered beforehand.🤣 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 7 hours ago, Jimbru.6014 said: Creating a world full of Charr steam tanks, Pact ariships, Vigil megalasers, firearms and artillery and magic and explosions of all kinds, which in reality ended close formations and melee combat as primary modes of warfare a long time ago. But despite the military unreality of it all, for some reason the main mode of combat in GW2 is a melee range infantry boon pile. Making Norn too much like humans. Norn are just EverQuest's Barbarians in a different game; they're both just big dumb drunk humans with a pseudo Nordic-Celtic culture, and little to really separate them from humans other than their size. I honestly think the game would have been better off if Norn had simply been left as NPCs. Is point A talking about gameplay? Because... gameplay =/= lore. And saying Norn are "Just big dumb drunk humans" means all you look at is the parties and nothing else at all. They party hard and big yes, but they aren't dumb, and they don't exist in a perpetual state of drunkness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sajuuk Khar.1509 Posted November 20, 2022 Share Posted November 20, 2022 (edited) On 11/19/2022 at 12:01 PM, Jimbru.6014 said: The completely unexplained return of the dwarfs during IBS. What exactly is unexplained? We never knew for a fact that all the Dwarves died. People in-universe assumed it, but the Dwarves pretty much all went underground over a century ago, and no one has seem them since. So no one really knew one way or the other they were all dead. Edited November 20, 2022 by Sajuuk Khar.1509 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 14 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said: What exactly is unexplained? We never knew for a fact that all the Dwarves died. People in-universe assumed it, but the Dwarves pretty much all went underground over a century ago, and no one has seem them since. So no one really knew one way or the other they were all dead. And in season 3 we got confirmation that yes, the dwarves were active against the destroyers. IBS basicly has the dwarves go "We fight were destroyers are, and the destroyers we were fighting cane up here" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayMadIV.8721 Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 (edited) I have not played the ENTIRE story from start to finish (my most accomplished character just killed Joko), but thus far I would definitely have to say making Balthazar the villain of POF instead of say...Menzies. Or some other minor divine being, of which I am sure there are many somewhere in the Mists. Edited November 22, 2022 by JayMadIV.8721 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted November 24, 2022 Share Posted November 24, 2022 Said it before and I'm sure many may agree: the narrative has massively shifted its focus from world events to Dragons in Gw2. I also feel that killing off Dragons is a bad idea. Writing off the Dragons is akin to killing off environmental effects in Gw2's universe. It's like saying "Oh, we used to have Earthquakes but now we don't because we killed a Dragon" I think Dragons should have remained passive to the world and occasionally rear its ugly head to give everyone a heartattack, then when it all settles, people go back to fighting each other. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telgum.6071 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 Soo-Won and the Dragonvoid. I don't buy this "Soo-Won was a good dragon trying to save the world from a relentless evil". They had the tools to make the ultimate, evil dragon empowered by the energies of all the dead dragons. Instead they delivered the generic motherly character sacrificing herself for a greater good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eekasqueak.7850 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 An ultimate evil dragon would have been more generic imo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalavier.1097 Posted November 27, 2022 Share Posted November 27, 2022 4 hours ago, Telgum.6071 said: Soo-Won and the Dragonvoid. I don't buy this "Soo-Won was a good dragon trying to save the world from a relentless evil". They had the tools to make the ultimate, evil dragon empowered by the energies of all the dead dragons. Instead they delivered the generic motherly character sacrificing herself for a greater good. 3 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said: An ultimate evil dragon would have been more generic imo Also possibly destructive to an entirely new scale that would be hard to effectively portray within the game, or make reasonable to defeat. Imagine the whining we have already about "Visiting all the places of GW1 but most are ruined" multipled by having just all of Cantha be dragon overrun wasteland by a super dragon? Or the complaints about Aurene and/or making the commander a god tier like character. Look at Kralk and the damage he could do, quite casually, to the world map. Imagine a dragon with all the dead dragon's powers and abilities at once. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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