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What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?


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16 hours ago, DemonCrypto.6792 said:

(more a lore hole than a mistake)

I have one thing, i feel , a big paradox.
Why no skritt have been found branded by kralkatoric coruption.

I mean -> in one corner we have a shinie sparkly piece of branded cristal

               -> in the other a skritt (who want the shinies)

So where  are branded skritts ?

this is the most conpulsive race of Tyria, Why have they been spared from it ?

There are a lot of dragon minions we don't really see shown in game really. Some types have quite the varied list, and others are much more simplified. Like we don't have Risen Dredge, despite knowing at least 1 sizable group got killed off and corrupted by a Risen attack.

17 hours ago, Wolfb.7025 said:

Oh and I bet everyone would agree that Braham becoming an a ss in LWS3 is also a big mistake and that's the biggest reason the big majority of players hates him as a character.

Kinda ignores him going through grief and reasonably, if misguided, linking Eir's death to the Commanders hesitation at charging after the captured survivors.

He started to associate "Wait, let's get more information/Let's get more allies." to "People dying. My Mom dying." and thus lashed out. Hence

Quote

Braham: With every moment we wait, someone else's mother dies! I won't give Jormag a few days! I won't give Jormag a few minutes!

Which pretty clearly explains what's going on. He blames the commander for Eir dying, and thinks that waiting any longer then needed at that point, when Jormag is active and he has the bow enchanted, it just risking more death.

9 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And let's not forget about him magically becoming an arachnophobe for the whole of one instance, despite never having spider issues before and never again after, just for the unnecessary failed attempt at comedic relief banter.

Wiki isn't really showing any arachnophobe style dialogue from Braham for that instance?

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Not killing Braham the first time he opens his mouth.

"Biggest lore mistake" is a really broad question. And horribly subjective. What do you mean by "lore mistake"? Writing philosophy? Story direction? (Unnecessary) retcons, be it soft or hard? Somethin

I feel like rushing IBS and Jormag's demise are a little to obvious as an answer, so maybe we'll say "besides this one".

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Wiki isn't really showing any arachnophobe style dialogue from Braham for that instance?

While the words aren't giving much in terms of fear, they aren't all there is to project moods and feelings. The tone of his voice in that instance (Legacy instance, Season 4 Episode 4) makes it clear that he is is afraid of spiders in that instance, and only in that one instance.

And then there's this part, which makes it pretty obvious even without hearing the tone:

<Character name>: Braham, I didn't know you're—
Braham Eirsson: I'm not! It's just...Rox always takes care of the spiders.
Edited by Fueki.4753
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54 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

While the words aren't giving much in terms of fear, they aren't all there is to project moods and feelings. The tone of his voice in that instance (Legacy instance, Season 4 Episode 4) makes it clear that he is is afraid of spiders in that instance, and only in that one instance.

And then there's this part, which makes it pretty obvious even without hearing the tone:

<Character name>: Braham, I didn't know you're—
Braham Eirsson: I'm not! It's just...Rox always takes care of the spiders.

Oh. That one scene in s4 sure. I was thinking of the s3 scene the other guy talked about.

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1 hour ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Oh. That one scene in s4 sure. I was thinking of the s3 scene the other guy talked about.

After checking my original post about that scene, I agree that it is a bit confusing, since I didn't mention season 4.

But still, it was stupid to make him an arachnophobe for that instance, when there's plenty of evidence, that he's not one.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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Posted (edited)

The single biggest lore mistake would be the Commander and friends killing off Jormag and Primordus in a Champions without providing any narrative justification for why we thought killing two dragons at once wouldn’t end the world. At no point did anyone question the repercussions of our actions. Even if Taimi’s theory has been disproven due to vague revelations at the conclusion of EoDs, we had no reason to believe we could kill two dragons without major consequences to the world at the time. Moreover, we had no reason to believe Aurene could balance The All alone. These concepts just weren’t set up. All the knowledge Dragon’s Watch had collected over the trials and errors of their campaign against the elder dragons was completely ignored to rush out an ending. And sure, we know the real world context of why Champions was messy. Doesn’t change the mistakes that were made.

 

I don’t know why a few lines of dialogue could not be included somewhere in Champions to debunk what we had learned, to even propose the idea that we may have been wrong or that Aurene could handle The All without them. The Commander, Taimi, Aurene were all silent as we did the very thing we’d “learned” we weren’t supposed to do. They could have even included dialogue along the lines of “we might destroy the world, but if we don’t stop Jormag and Primordus they’ll destroy it anyway.”

 

I don’t think any other lore/plot contradiction has been as egregious imo.

Edited by Zola.6197
weird formatting. idk what happened.
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29 minutes ago, Zola.6197 said:

The single biggest lore mistake would be the Commander and friends killing off Jormag and Primordus in a Champions without providing any narrative justification for why we thought killing two dragons at once wouldn’t end the world. At no point did anyone question the repercussions of our actions. Even if Taimi’s theory has been disproven due to vague revelations at the conclusion of EoDs, we had no reason to believe we could kill two dragons without major consequences to the world at the time. Moreover, we had no reason to believe Aurene could balance The All alone. These concepts just weren’t set up. All the knowledge Dragon’s Watch had collected over the trials and errors of their campaign against the elder dragons was completely ignored to rush out an ending. And sure, we know the real world context of why Champions

was messy. Doesn’t change the mistakes that were made.

 

I don’t know why a few lines of dialogue could not be included somewhere in Champions to debunk what we had learned, to even propose the idea that we may have been wrong or that Aurene could handle The All without them. The Commander, Taimi, Aurene were all

silent as we did the very thing we’d “learned” we

weren’t supposed to do. They could have even included dialogue along the lines of “we might destroy the world, but if we don’t stop Jormag and Primordus they’ll destroy it anyway.”

 

I don’t think any other lore/plot contradiction has been as egregious imo.

I'm fairly sure they mention it somewhere, with the added "We got no other option right now as having either dragon free without the twin is utterly destructive." being stated or heavily implied.

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I've just finished End of Dragons despite Pre-Purchasing the Expansion. I honestly do not care about the Lore but I care about good writing. And through my hours of playing the Expansion, there is no good writing to be seen. Everything is completely Westernized and I just wanted every conversation between every character to end. If ANet can't hire an Asian woman with an Asian accent that's just a pity. This goes same for the male Asian characters. Everytime they talk to my character its like a clip from a modern movie scene and it just disgusts me. I did not pay money to watch a crappy Marvel show with Western bravado.

 

I understand that this game is on a budget but holy crap the writing is just so bad. And now there's a lesbian marriage in an empty tavern, good grief. I would rather play FF14's A Realm Reborn TWICE than go through EoD in this game again. Because atleast the plot in FF14 gets way better with every Expansion. Such a pity because I enjoyed GW2's writing back in the day, especially the original before the Expansions.

Edited by Kera.3982
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 I felt the core game's writing up to heart of thorns ending was probably guild wars 2 peak. You're just an adventurer who is there to support Trahearne and the order you chose. The reveal of sylvari being from Mordremoth was a spicy shocker, to me at least. After they sacked Trahearne in HoT, it seems like the lore went downhill from there. I was hyped for Balthazar being the main enemy of PoF because he wasn't a dragon. Maybe he had some ulterior motive to all this! But what did they do? Make him a typical "crazy villain" who just gets absorbed by a dragon. 

My only conclusion is that the original writer/s from base game and Heart of Thorns are not around anymore due to the layoffs a few years ago. It's a shame honestly! This was once my favorite mmo to play in an ever thinning pool of available mmos.

Edited by vicky.9751
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On 6/5/2022 at 3:49 PM, Zola.6197 said:

The single biggest lore mistake would be the Commander and friends killing off Jormag and Primordus in a Champions without providing any narrative justification for why we thought killing two dragons at once wouldn’t end the world. At no point did anyone question the repercussions of our actions. Even if Taimi’s theory has been disproven due to vague revelations at the conclusion of EoDs, we had no reason to believe we could kill two dragons without major consequences to the world at the time. Moreover, we had no reason to believe Aurene could balance The All alone. These concepts just weren’t set up. All the knowledge Dragon’s Watch had collected over the trials and errors of their campaign against the elder dragons was completely ignored to rush out an ending. And sure, we know the real world context of why Champions was messy. Doesn’t change the mistakes that were made.

I don’t know why a few lines of dialogue could not be included somewhere in Champions to debunk what we had learned, to even propose the idea that we may have been wrong or that Aurene could handle The All without them. The Commander, Taimi, Aurene were all silent as we did the very thing we’d “learned” we weren’t supposed to do. They could have even included dialogue along the lines of “we might destroy the world, but if we don’t stop Jormag and Primordus they’ll destroy it anyway.”

I don’t think any other lore/plot contradiction has been as egregious imo.

They did set this up way back in PoF and LWS4.

Its explicitly stated back in the big PoF Kesho cutscene that the whole point of Glint's plan was to fundamentally change the dynamic of the Elder Dragons, and the balance of magic, by removing the old Elder Dragons, who hoarded magic, and replace them with beings who circulate it, bringing true balance to magic. No one Elder Dragon could fulfill the balance by themselves because they hoarded the magic within them, and we've already seen, both with Gods, and with the lay-infused monsters, no one creature can hold too much magic within themselves.

Aurene doesn't hoard magic like the old Elder Dragons, shes shares it, making her fundamentally different in that regard. During the whole Scion and Champion trials we face in LWS4, during the Thunderhead Peaks release, we are even told by Glint about this, how sharing magic with her champion, and others, will help her reduce/remove the effects of having so much power.

And we see with Aurene's ascension at the end of LWS4, she has not only replaced Kralkatorrik, but also Zhaitan, and Mordremoth, which has eliminated the lay-infused monsters, volatile magic, and unbound magic, from appearing in future maps. We saw, from the get-go, that she was fundamentally different from the past Elder Dragons, and able to replace at least 3 at once from the moment of her ascension.

Even if she couldn't replace Jormag and Primrodus as well, their deaths would have only brought us back to the Volatile magic/Ley-infused monsters we had during Kralk's time, which, while bad, wasn't world ending. And the characters would know this because they saw/experienced it just as players did.

Not to mention, as Kalavier.1097 posted, they state that it doesn't really matter, since if Jormag wins its game over anyways.

They have no reason to talk about something they all know first hand from observable facts of the world, and they have no reason to verbally spew it out for the player's sake for the same reasons.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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4 hours ago, Kera.3982 said:

Everything is completely Westernized and I just wanted every conversation between every character to end. If ANet can't hire an Asian woman with an Asian accent that's just a pity. This goes same for the male Asian characters. Everytime they talk to my character its like a clip from a modern movie scene and it just disgusts me. I did not pay money to watch a crappy Marvel show with Western bravado.

You know the hilariousness of the heavily American accents by every Canthan NPC?

ArenaNet went out of their way to showcase they hired a bunch of Asian-descent voice actors to play the various Canthan/Asian NPCs, and (some of) these voice actors have some clear Asian accents in their little videos that got promoted on the GW2 twitter...

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2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

They did set this up way back in PoF and LWS4.

Its explicitly stated back in the big PoF Kesho cutscene that the whole point of Glint's plan was to fundamentally change the dynamic of the Elder Dragons, and the balance of magic, by removing the old Elder Dragons, who hoarded magic, and replace them with beings who circulate it, bringing true balance to magic. No one Elder Dragon could fulfill the balance by themselves because they hoarded the magic within them, and we've already seen, both with Gods, and with the lay-infused monsters, no one creature can hold too much magic within themselves.

Aurene doesn't hoard magic like the old Elder Dragons, shes shares it, making her fundamentally different in that regard. During the whole Scion and Champion trials we face in LWS4, during the Thunderhead Peaks release, we are even told by Glint about this, how sharing magic with her champion, and others, will help her reduce/remove the effects of having so much power.

At the risk of starting a pointless debate, though I initially argued that the bonding was the key component of Aurene's uniqueness initially, upon recent replaying of PoF I actually have to disagree with the notion now. Or if it is, there's a small plothole issue instead. And it's this line in particular that calls such out to me:

Sadizi: By the time we realized Vlast needed to bond with mortal races as Glint had, he no longer could...nor cared to.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward#In_Kesho

If we were to assume that all that's needed is for a could-be Elder Dragon to bond with mortals instead of corrupting them, as bonding is the manner of "sharing magic", then there's two things that should have happened:

  1. Firstly, per the above line, Glint should have been fully capable of managing all magic without conflict. This means that Aurene would not be the first of her kind as Kralkatorrik said she was, but the second. Glint would have been first. One can handwave this as "Kralkatorrik simply didn't know", but he seemed aware enough of Glint's actions that he knew not only that she betrayed him while he slept, but also where she was located immediately upon awakening.
  2. Jormag should have become more sensible, less burdened by Torment, in the (unfortunately brief thanks to EoD-related cutbacks) time between bonding with Ryland and beginning to make use of the Frozen. But Jormag's personality seems fully unchanged.

To clarify, while bonding and sharing magic is important, it's not the cause of the key defining trait that lets Aurene be the magical solution to all our problems by simply being able to manage all forms of magic. Rather, it is a matter of psychological discipline that makes Aurene the friendly dragon rather than yet another harmful one.

Quote

And we see with Aurene's ascension at the end of LWS4, she has not only replaced Kralkatorrik, but also Zhaitan, and Mordremoth

We do not see this happening at all.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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17 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Jormag should have become more sensible, less burdened by Torment, in the (unfortunately brief thanks to EoD-related cutbacks) time between bonding with Ryland and beginning to make use of the Frozen. But Jormag's personality seems fully unchanged.

We don't even know, if Jormag actually bonded with Ryland in the way Aurene does with the commander. For all we know, he could just be a partially corrupted Icebrood Charr (just like the rest of the Frost Legion), just with his mind remaining intact (potentially due to Jormag using Mordremoth's Mind magic to prevent the minds from being corrupted).

Ryland having bonded with Jormag may just have been one of the many, MANY lies that Jormag told - and we know that lying and deceiving is half of Jormag's business.

But then this would also question Caithe's state of corruption, as she's in a situation comparable to frosty Ryland.

Edited by Fueki.4753
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3 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

We don't even know, if Jormag actually bonded with Ryland in the way Aurene does with the commander. For all we know, he could just be a partially corrupted Icebrood Charr (just like the rest of the Frost Legion), just with his mind remaining intact (potentially due to Jormag using Mordremoth's Mind magic to prevent the minds from being corrupted).

Ryland having bonded with Jormag may just have been one of the many, MANY lies that Jormag told - and we know that lying and deceiving is half of Jormag's business.

But then this would also question Caithe's state of corruption, as she's in a situation comparable to frosty Ryland.

By all indication, with exclusion of the Commander who's different for the sake of fashion wars, "bonding" is "just be a partially corrupted [...] with [the mind] remaining intact".

As you note with Caithe, that's the exact same situation, and the Commander ends up being that same situation as well, albeit momentarily, during The Only One in End of Dragons. What this shows is that the physical alteration comes from "more magic", just like the size increase. The more magic, the more elemental the subject becomes. For Aurene, post-ascension that element is "light" for... reasons never really specified.

Ultimately, there's nothing to really indicate there's any difference between bonding and corruption beyond the whole free will thing, and "sharing the burden of magic" versus "hoarding the magic". The latter could be what results in less visual changes, but that seems to be unique to the Commander because Fashion Wars.

We need further details than shallow vague descriptions, unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

At the risk of starting a pointless debate, though I initially argued that the bonding was the key component of Aurene's uniqueness initially, upon recent replaying of PoF I actually have to disagree with the notion now. Or if it is, there's a small plothole issue instead. And it's this line in particular that calls such out to me:

Sadizi: By the time we realized Vlast needed to bond with mortal races as Glint had, he no longer could...nor cared to.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Way_Forward#In_Kesho

If we were to assume that all that's needed is for a could-be Elder Dragon to bond with mortals instead of corrupting them, as bonding is the manner of "sharing magic", then there's two things that should have happened:

  1. Firstly, per the above line, Glint should have been fully capable of managing all magic without conflict. This means that Aurene would not be the first of her kind as Kralkatorrik said she was, but the second. Glint would have been first. One can handwave this as "Kralkatorrik simply didn't know", but he seemed aware enough of Glint's actions that he knew not only that she betrayed him while he slept, but also where she was located immediately upon awakening.
  2. Jormag should have become more sensible, less burdened by Torment, in the (unfortunately brief thanks to EoD-related cutbacks) time between bonding with Ryland and beginning to make use of the Frozen. But Jormag's personality seems fully unchanged.

To clarify, while bonding and sharing magic is important, it's not the cause of the key defining trait that lets Aurene be the magical solution to all our problems by simply being able to manage all forms of magic. Rather, it is a matter of psychological discipline that makes Aurene the friendly dragon rather than yet another harmful one.

We do not see this happening at all.

A few big problem with this whole argument.

  1. Glint could see the future, and we know from Dulann, Luminate's Envoy that she foresaw events following Kralkatorrik's death. We also know from EoD that she couldn't see, at least herself, past her battle with Kralkatorrik. While Glint could have possibly taken on the whole of the magic cycle herself, she would have almost certainly had suspicions she wasn't going to make it that long, and thus, reasonably set up others to do it in her place.
  2. Glint never reached the point Aurene did of actually taking a Champion and bonding with them as Aurene did. She had a connection to mortals, but no truly bonded champion.
  3. Vlast simply lacked basic empathy toward mortals. Doing what he did out a sense of responsibility for his mother's wishes/plan, not because he truly felt for mortals. This would have invariably prevented him from having a champion. You can't bond with something you don't truly care for(part of the whole point of training with Aurene in Tarir when shes a child)
  4. Jormag was massively corrupted by torment after countless millennia of dragon cycles. Him taking Ryland as a Champion isn't going to suddenly undo that. Nothing states you can just go from insane to sane by bonding with mortals, only that doing so will prevent you from going there.

You're entire argument only works if you assume Glint is so moronic that she didn't even consider having a backup in case of failure of her 10,000+ year long master plan, ignore the exact specifics of Aurene's bond to the Commander compared to Glint's more general connection to mortals, and make up unsupported, and not even remotely hinted, sanity cures by taking a champion.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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36 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

By all indication, with exclusion of the Commander who's different for the sake of fashion wars, "bonding" is "just be a partially corrupted [...] with [the mind] remaining intact".

As you note with Caithe, that's the exact same situation, and the Commander ends up being that same situation as well, albeit momentarily, during The Only One in End of Dragons. What this shows is that the physical alteration comes from "more magic", just like the size increase. The more magic, the more elemental the subject becomes. For Aurene, post-ascension that element is "light" for... reasons never really specified.

Ultimately, there's nothing to really indicate there's any difference between bonding and corruption beyond the whole free will thing, and "sharing the burden of magic" versus "hoarding the magic". The latter could be what results in less visual changes, but that seems to be unique to the Commander because Fashion Wars.

We need further details than shallow vague descriptions, unfortunately.

But still, Jormag could have just lied about the bond to Ryland and simply corrupted him (instead of the bonding that Aurene did), because lying is its thing. Thus, it wouldn't "share the burden of magic" with Ryland.

Also, Aurene being the prismatic Elder Dragon, her element still is Crystal, like it was for Kralkatorrik, Vlast and Glint. The Light addendum only came to be due to the analogy of Aurene handling the spectrum of magic in a manner comparable to how prisms split/refract light.

I think, calling her a Dragon of Crystal and Light is just a way to avoid having to explain how prisms work to every Tyrian.

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15 minutes ago, Fueki.4753 said:

But still, Jormag could have just lied about the bond to Ryland and simply corrupted him (instead of the bonding that Aurene did), because lying is its thing. Thus, it wouldn't "share the burden of magic" with Ryland.

Also, Aurene being the prismatic Elder Dragon, her element still is Crystal, like it was for Kralkatorrik, Vlast and Glint. The Light addendum only came to be due to the analogy of Aurene handling the spectrum of magic in a manner comparable to how prisms split/refract light.

I think, calling her a Dragon of Crystal and Light is just a way to avoid having to explain how prisms work to every Tyrian.

We know bonds are different then typical corruption.

Typically corrupted minions don't just suddenly revert back to their original forms the moment their dragon dies. Yet both Braham and Ryland did, and Caithe went sort of halfway there due to Aurene's quasi-death-but-not-death.

The fact Ryland reverted back to his original appearance after Jormag's death, as Braham did, would suggest he was actually bonded with Jormag as Braham was to Primordus, and Caithe to Aurene.

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49 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

We know bonds are different then typical corruption.

Typically corrupted minions don't just suddenly revert back to their original forms the moment their dragon dies. Yet both Braham and Ryland did, and Caithe went sort of halfway there due to Aurene's quasi-death-but-not-death.

The fact Ryland reverted back to his original appearance after Jormag's death, as Braham did, would suggest he was actually bonded with Jormag as Braham was to Primordus, and Caithe to Aurene.

Did Ryland truly revert though?

Ryland was grey in the final confrontation, as if the ice covering him simply fell off/melted away (which seemingly happened to many of Jormags minions. He was red and brown with green eyes before he was converted.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/thumb/6/6a/Ryland_Steelcatcher_(No_Quarter).jpg/800px-Ryland_Steelcatcher_(No_Quarter).jpg

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/c/cc/Rytlock_killing_Ryland.jpg

Edited by Fueki.4753
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2 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

A few big problem with this whole argument.

  1. Glint could see the future, and we know from Dulann, Luminate's Envoy that she foresaw events following Kralkatorrik's death. We also know from EoD that she couldn't see, at least herself, past her battle with Kralkatorrik. While Glint could have possibly taken on the whole of the magic cycle herself, she would have almost certainly had suspicions she wasn't going to make it that long, and thus, reasonably set up others to do it in her place.
  2. Glint never reached the point Aurene did of actually taking a Champion and bonding with them as Aurene did. She had a connection to mortals, but no truly bonded champion.
  3. Vlast simply lacked basic empathy toward mortals. Doing what he did out a sense of responsibility for his mother's wishes/plan, not because he truly felt for mortals. This would have invariably prevented him from having a champion. You can't bond with something you don't truly care for(part of the whole point of training with Aurene in Tarir when shes a child)
  4. Jormag was massively corrupted by torment after countless millennia of dragon cycles. Him taking Ryland as a Champion isn't going to suddenly undo that. Nothing states you can just go from insane to sane by bonding with mortals, only that doing so will prevent you from going there.

You're entire argument only works if you assume Glint is so moronic that she didn't even consider having a backup in case of failure of her 10,000+ year long master plan, ignore the exact specifics of Aurene's bond to the Commander compared to Glint's more general connection to mortals, and make up unsupported, and not even remotely hinted, sanity cures by taking a champion.

  1. Glint also states that she couldn't see past her death while alive during Crystalline Memories. She has no reason to lie to personal audio journals and it gave no benefit to it. Similar to how Aurene couldn't see past the point of her "death" and when she lost magic in EoD, this implies that her visions of after her death, if actual, came to her after her death, not before. Or that there are convergences that crystal dragons cannot see past, and for Glint this was her death, but once that convergence passes they can see the future again. This said, Glint's interest in setting up others to balance is rather irrelevant to whether or not Glint could be the singular point of preventing Tyria's collapse (no intelligent being would want there to be one singular fail point to something, even if Glint knew she could balance all of Tyria's magic alone, she'd want others simply to avoid the issue of "if Glint alone dies the world dies").
  2. We actually don't know this, as we do not know Glint's whole history. But on top of that, the dialogue explicitly states that Glint did bond with mortals, just that Vlast didn't. This bond Glint has is never said to be "general connection to mortals".
  3. Jormag was also lacking basic empathy towards mortals, but they had a bonded champion in Ryland. So we know that assumption is false.
  4. I never said anything about suddenly undoing anything, but that it would lessen the burden. We also don't know whether the Frost Legion are corrupted or bonded, but they seem to retain their free will based on what dialogue we still see. So it wasn't just two individuals bonded, but potentially a full army.
  5. I don't see how my entire argument "only works if [I] assume Glint is so moronic that she didn't even consider having a backup in case of failure". In fact, my argument works perfectly in line with assuming she had backup plans, as it would posit that Glint and all of her children would be capable of handling the system solo if need-be and would all be Elder Dragons to do just that. In fact, the argument that Glint intentionally made it for specifically Aurene alone to replace the whole pantheon of Elder Dragons alone assumes Glint is so moronic as to not even consider having a backup in case of failure.
    And besides which, Aurene outright states that they believe the Commander will one day die long before Aurene will - and presumably Caithe too, as Aurene laments the notion of being alone in the far distant future in both EoD story and the Gen3 legendaries - which means that Aurene will one day lose her bonded champion, so assuming that it's specifically that bonded champion alone that makes Aurene capable of handling the world means that it's not a solution - it's a limited time stopgap measure.
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2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Also, Aurene being the prismatic Elder Dragon, her element still is Crystal, like it was for Kralkatorrik, Vlast and Glint. The Light addendum only came to be due to the analogy of Aurene handling the spectrum of magic in a manner comparable to how prisms split/refract light.

I think, calling her a Dragon of Crystal and Light is just a way to avoid having to explain how prisms work to every Tyrian.

So gonna bring up Jessica Price on the domain thing, and just quote her twitter after War Eternal launched:

They played up the idea that Aurene's element as an Elder Dragon is light SO GORGEOUSLY and it's a perfect example of how creative constraints can sometimes lead things to be better than they would have otherwise.
 

And the poor producer is shaking her head, like, no, there's no way we can do two Elder Dragon full-body models for this episode, it's completely impossible.
And I, feeling the gallows-humor of despair, said jokingly, well, what if when she ascended we just covered it up with a lot of lens flare?
And someone else was like, wait, yes, we've been assuming her element as an Elder Dragon has to be crystal because she's a crystal dragon, but what if it's light?
And that idea ended up stretching backwards--the idea of her functioning as a prism that opens up a spectrum of possibilities, or focuses chaos into a single path--into how we wrote her for Eps 4 and 5.

So it seems that internally, the plan was done early on (due to budget issues) to have her not be another Elder Crystal Dragon but Light, and the prisms is just a bridge from her original crystal to her new light domains.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Glint also states that she couldn't see past her death while alive during Crystalline Memories.

She couldn't see herself past her own death. That doesn't mean she couldn't see thing unrelated to herself past her own death. The nature of visions is imprecise as ourselves have seen with some of Aurene's visions.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

We actually don't know this, as we do not know Glint's whole history. But on top of that, the dialogue explicitly states that Glint did bond with mortals, just that Vlast didn't. This bond Glint has is never said to be "general connection to mortals".

And as we see numerous times, the bond between scion and champion is a different thing then just being able to feel empathy toward mortals. Nowhere do we see or hear about Glint having bonded with a specific person, or persons, to serve the role of Champion, that can harness and direct her energy as the Commander does with Aurene. Aurene has bonded with mortals, yet no one in the Crystal Bloom, besides maybe Caithe, could do the directed Aurene energy blasts the Commander has done.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
  • Jormag was also lacking basic empathy towards mortals, but they had a bonded champion in Ryland. So we know that assumption is false.

This isn't entirely accurate. As you yourself have argued several times in the past, several of the Elder Dragons show a clear desire to want to help mortals, in what is ultimately a twisted way. Zhaitan wanting to make everyone undead to end the suffering of loss. Jormag wanting to preserve the world in ice for similar reasons, etc. The Elder Dragons, sans maybe Primordus, had some care for the creatures of the world, likely stemming from a leftover of Soo-Won's teaching of them as children. but it had become warped and twisted after ages of living, and the ever increasing effects of Torment.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
  • I never said anything about suddenly undoing anything, but that it would lessen the burden. We also don't know whether the Frost Legion are corrupted or bonded, but they seem to retain their free will based on what dialogue we still see. So it wasn't just two individuals bonded, but potentially a full army.

The retention of free will isn't what makes someone bonded. Jormag is no more bonded with the Frost Legion then Aurene is to the Crystal Bloom.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
  • In fact, the argument that Glint intentionally made it for specifically Aurene alone to replace the whole pantheon of Elder Dragons alone assumes Glint is so moronic as to not even consider having a backup in case of failure.

No one argued that Glint made it specifically so that Aurene alone could do it. This is you straw manning/misrepresenting what has actually been argued, again. The only thing that has been argued is that Aurene could do it alone.

6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
  • And besides which, Aurene outright states that they believe the Commander will one day die long before Aurene will - and presumably Caithe too, as Aurene laments the notion of being alone in the far distant future in both EoD story and the Gen3 legendaries - which means that Aurene will one day lose her bonded champion, so assuming that it's specifically that bonded champion alone that makes Aurene capable of handling the world means that it's not a solution - it's a limited time stopgap measure.

Ignoring that Aurene already has a non-psychotic bond with mortals that should allow her to take a new Champion if needed. Not to mention Caithe. We have no idea how long Sylvari can live, and given her changed status could possibly live forever.

Mordremoths minions seemingly managed to last 10,000 years between dragon cycles, as the cave Ronin found the seed that became the Pale Tree was reportedly full of weird plant monsters.

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Crystal Bloom serve/help Aurene, but they don't have any buffs or direct (as in literal) magic connection to her.

Likewise, Glint's plan, IIRC was originally that she'd ascend, with her offspring helping fill the roles of other dragons?

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10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

She couldn't see herself past her own death. That doesn't mean she couldn't see thing unrelated to herself past her own death. The nature of visions is imprecise as ourselves have seen with some of Aurene's visions.

Glint: I am not yet prepared to face the Elder Dragon—and distressingly, I cannot see beyond the coming battle.

Nothing specifies "see herself", just "cannot see beyond the coming battle", indicating she couldn't see anything. If she could, she'd be able to figure out what happens even without seeing herself directly.

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

And as we see numerous times, the bond between scion and champion is a different thing then just being able to feel empathy toward mortals. Nowhere do we see or hear about Glint having bonded with a specific person, or persons, to serve the role of Champion, that can harness and direct her energy as the Commander does with Aurene. Aurene has bonded with mortals, yet no one in the Crystal Bloom, besides maybe Caithe, could do the directed Aurene energy blasts the Commander has done.

Glint is stated to have bonded with mortals, not merely hold empathy for them; for Vlast it was stated he didn't bond with any mortal and he didn't want to, indicating both lacking a bond and empathy - Sadizi lists both as two separate things. We never hear or see any bonded champion of Glint, but that doesn't mean such doesn't exist - there's 3,000 years of history and we barely get a glimpse, not to mention that she does have "branded" minions in GW1 and very devour dwarven followers she personally communicates with.

Or in other words: lacking of evidence is not evidence of lacking in this regard. There's just to omany unknown, and we have dialogue that uses the exact same terminology. While it is possible this is another case of ArenaNet confusingly using the same terms for different meaning, the fact they put empathy and bond side by side as separate things implies otherwise.

Aurene is not bonded to the Crystal Bloom members, only to Caithe and the Commander. She's never even shown to directly communicate with them. The closest we get to bonded mortals besides Caithe and the Commander is Braham with this dialogue in IBS:

Aurene: I believe he was able to bond with Primordus, yes. But I'm cut off from him now.

Course this just shows that Aurene was some how connected to Braham, not strictly that they were bonded.

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

This isn't entirely accurate. As you yourself have argued several times in the past, several of the Elder Dragons show a clear desire to want to help mortals, in what is ultimately a twisted way.

That isn't really the same as empathy, and Jormag themselves outright state they don't care about mortals because they can't:

Voice of Jormag: Oh, there are some exceptions. I can see why you've bound yourself to your commander.

Aurene: Not bound. Chosen, and reciprocated.

Voice of Jormag: Yes. Yes, just so I suppose. I admit, now that I have one of my own, I understand the appeal of such a partnership.

Aurene: So Ryland is still with you.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bangar_Ruinbringer#During_the_Confer_with_Bangar_achievement

Jormag: "Wrong."

Aurene: You're dooming those mortals to centuries of—darkness, limbo, who knows what?

Jormag: I confess I do not.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Jormag's_Madness

Ryland was the very first mortal - at least in any recent timeframe - that Jormag had any empathy for. And even then, it feels very shallow, like enjoying the company of a pet. Even after bonding to Ryland, Jormag still lacked enough compassion and empathy for mortals to care about the damage that could be done to them by making them Frozen. Sure, Jormag wanted to "preserve the world", and Zhaitan theoretically wants to end suffering of loss, but this isn't done through empathy with mortals - it's done through an apathetic desire for the world at large.

  

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

The retention of free will isn't what makes someone bonded. Jormag is no more bonded with the Frost Legion then Aurene is to the Crystal Bloom.

Crystal Bloom aren't connected to Aurene in any way; they're not bonded, they're just faithful servants following Aurene as an ideology. The Frost Legion, however, is connected to Jormag. There's a vast difference.

The question is not whether those two groups are similar, but whether the Frost Legion are the same as Icebrood. But as pointed out when they're first met:

Rytlock Brimstone: They fight smarter than icebrood!

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Turnabout

So they aren't exactly the same. They're smarter - one of the losses of corruption is intelligence, due to the loss of free will. The question is: how similar are they to the bonded?

10 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

No one argued that Glint made it specifically so that Aurene alone could do it. This is you straw manning/misrepresenting what has actually been argued, again. The only thing that has been argued is that Aurene could do it alone.

I never said anyone made that argument, but for the matter, no one made the argument that Glint - to quote you - "didn't even consider having a backup in case of failure of her 10,000+ year long master plan, ignore the exact specifics of Aurene's bond to the Commander compared to Glint's more general connection to mortals, and make up unsupported, and not even remotely hinted, sanity cures by taking a champion."

Honestly, if you're blaming me for "strawmaning/misrepresenting what has actually been argued" because of a theoretical argument created for comparison, then you're doing the same kitten thing. Again.

Which honestly makes any further discussion entirely moot. I'll leave what I already wrote since I already wrote it, but for gods' sake man. Pot calling kettle black.

Edited by Konig Des Todes.2086
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On 5/12/2022 at 9:14 AM, Randulf.7614 said:

Pretty much everything they did with Dragons. As destructive forces of nature in the background, they were more deadly and more fascinating to me. Giving them characters with human flaws might have made for easier writing, but took all the power out of them and in the end, we had three relatively rushly dispatched Dragons, instead of leaving them in the background and focusing on other threats as central villains.

The one that stands out is Kralkatorrik in PoF. Whilst they mishandled Balthazar, the idea was sound and Kralk was more impressive, more powerful in depiction as this huge background force destroying the lands around it whilst others fought in the foreground. With a bit more attention to Balthazar himself and more time given over to Palawa Joko’s more interesting story of twisting us as the villain, then we could have had an amazing arc. Instead Kralk descended into some poor emo character calling for his mother, whilst a baby Dragon helps annihilate him. I don’t even understand how they thought that was a good idea.

They almost proved me wrong with Jormag by making them actually quite interesting, but quickly abandoned that to get out of IBS and do something new to continue what became a rather dire and messy story of balance and Aurene, which went round in circles before they sort of got it to work at the end, even though it’s clear they never really had a plan of wher they wanted to go with it as they were telling it.

Yes leaving the Dragons as forces of nature creates a two dimensional character, but they didn’t need layered depth - something they struggled with anyway. Sometimes a monster can just be a monster and that is OK.

I agree.

I am a fan of an interesting gray character arc, where their actions are controversial (not just black and white), but you aren't gonna get me sympathizing at the last minute with a world destroying monster because they have feelings too. The Kralk thing felt very... saturday morning cartoon, as did the dragon part of EoD in general. Which is... fine I guess, if that's the demographic they want to appeal to. But it does seem like a tonal shift. Heart of Thorns was pretty dark and despite my issues with its difficulty, I think it had the most interesting and fleshed out world, lore, and dragon encounter. Every dragon after, the dragons were sharing the stage with some other major interwoven plot. Kralk sharing the stage with Balthazar and Joko, Jormag and Primordus sharing the stage together along with the Charr, Soo-Won sharing the stage with the purists. And I think that made it hard to give the other dragons proper attention. Scattered plot in general makes it hard to give anything proper time.

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On 6/4/2022 at 5:43 PM, Wolfb.7025 said:

 

Oh and I bet everyone would agree that Braham becoming an a ss in LWS3 is also a big mistake and that's the biggest reason the big majority of players hates him as a character.

Not everyone.

Yeah, he was really annoying. But he was clearly intentionally so. I enjoyed the way Rox was written as the loyal but embarrassed for him friend. And his arc, for me, made the annoying worth it.

Caithe, however… acts like a sulky kid pseudo apologizing and even acting sullen that you don’t trust her after she stole the egg. The whole “I had an elder dragon in my head can’t we just move on?” attitude left me totally cold toward her.

From having to relive her horrible memories of enabling Faolain to her interactions over Aurene’s egg, I’d be happy for her to disappear from the story completely.

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