What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?

[Labjax.2465]

3 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Not everyone.

Yeah, he was really annoying. But he was clearly intentionally so. I enjoyed the way Rox was written as the loyal but embarrassed for him friend. And his arc, for me, made the annoying worth it.

Caithe, however… acts like a sulky kid pseudo apologizing and even acting sullen that you don’t trust her after she stole the egg. The whole “I had an elder dragon in my head can’t we just move on?” attitude left me totally cold toward her.

From having to relive her horrible memories of enabling Faolain to her interactions over Aurene’s egg, I’d be happy for her to disappear from the story completely.

I don't understand the Braham, Caithe, or Taimi hate, tbh. As much as I struggle with the walking and talking style of narrative this game has chosen to embrace, I can say I think those 3 all seem like pretty well-written people to me. Braham was going through something really traumatic when he becomes combative with you and in general is just an impulsive personality. Caithe was struggling to sort out what she was supposed to do between call of wyld hunt, mordremoth's voice, and whatever was left of faolain's influence. And Taimi is a kid, with way too much responsibility on her shoulders for her age, who has had to do a lot of growing up very fast. These aren't RPG companions who become your bestie if you flatter them enough. They're written as people with complicated backgrounds, personalities, and motivations that aren't always in line with the player character's, who happen to be thrust into the same conflict as you, just as your character is thrust into it, and who wouldn't necessarily want the same things as you when it's over. And despite that, the writers still maneuver them into positions of loyalty and trust over time... so all things considered, I don't get the hate.

(nothing personal against you, just jumping off your comment about it to say what I wanted to say)

[Gibson.4036]

1 hour ago, Labjax.2465 said:

I don't understand the Braham, Caithe, or Taimi hate, tbh. As much as I struggle with the walking and talking style of narrative this game has chosen to embrace, I can say I think those 3 all seem like pretty well-written people to me. Braham was going through something really traumatic when he becomes combative with you and in general is just an impulsive personality. Caithe was struggling to sort out what she was supposed to do between call of wyld hunt, mordremoth's voice, and whatever was left of faolain's influence. And Taimi is a kid, with way too much responsibility on her shoulders for her age, who has had to do a lot of growing up very fast. These aren't RPG companions who become your bestie if you flatter them enough. They're written as people with complicated backgrounds, personalities, and motivations that aren't always in line with the player character's, who happen to be thrust into the same conflict as you, just as your character is thrust into it, and who wouldn't necessarily want the same things as you when it's over. And despite that, the writers still maneuver them into positions of loyalty and trust over time... so all things considered, I don't get the hate.

(nothing personal against you, just jumping off your comment about it to say what I wanted to say)

Absolutely.

I think the difference for me is that Braham had an arc that brings him and the commander back together.

Caithe’s “apology” was so weirdly sulky, it doesn’t feel like she ever stopped being at her worst.

I don’t hate her, but I feel absolutely no attachment to her.

Edited June 15, 2022 by Gibson.4036

[Kalavier.1097]

9 hours ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Absolutely.

I think the difference for me is that Braham had an arc that brings him and the commander back together.

Caithe’s “apology” was so weirdly sulky, it doesn’t feel like she ever stopped being at her worst.

I don’t hate her, but I feel absolutely no attachment to her.

They didn't do Caithe favors by cutting out whatever bits it was that made the Commander so violent toward her in end of HoT.

[Guy.9207]

Basically anything that involves Balthazar.

The guy's motivation is to kill Kralkratorrik, which is cool and all, except you are not supposed to do that because it would result in the world going boom-boom (due to lack of dragons), hence why he has to be stopped.

Makes sense right? That is until IBS kills both Jormag and Primordus, which ends up invalidating this whole stake we have in PoF. Why did he have to be stopped if killing Kralky won't cause an issue down the line, especially if The Pact was going to do the same thing anyway? Why did Aurene need to replace Kralky when he wasn't playing a vital role that we thought he would as revealed in EoD?

It pains me even more because according to @Konig Des Todes.2086, The Commander has done rather questionable things towards the fallen god, who at the time was actually "reasonable" and wasn't going to kill the good guys down right. Balthazar could have been one of the allies who helps taking down Kralkratorrik now that we *truly* know how Elder Dragons and the world works as a whole, but this whole "conflict" has been rendered moot, and ultimately, a waste of time. It's really tragic, both in Watsonian view and Doylist view, because Balthazar didn't even need to become a villain, yet he did anyway, and this whole arc is wasted thanks to the revelation (or retcon) in EoD.

[Kalavier.1097]

1 hour ago, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

Basically anything that involves Balthazar.

The guy's motivation is to kill Kralkratorrik, which is cool and all, except you are not supposed to do that because it would result in the world going boom-boom (due to lack of dragons), hence why he has to be stopped.

Makes sense right? That is until IBS kills both Jormag and Primordus, which ends up invalidating this whole stake we have in PoF. Why did he have to be stopped if killing Kralky won't cause an issue down the line, especially if The Pact was going to do the same thing anyway? Why did Aurene need to replace Kralky when he wasn't playing a vital role that we thought he would as revealed in EoD?

Here's a key part this ALL ignores right now.

Up until Toddler, cute and smol Aurene absorbed balthazar's magic and turned into angry teenager Aurene, nobody had any idea of what role she could play in absorbing magic. edit: I mean this as we knew the dragons would be replaced, and Glint was wanting to do that with her two living scions (Aurene and Vlast), but we didn't have the details on exactly how it'd work. We didn't know Aurene would effectively act as a buffer. This is why in S3, Taimi doesn't factor her in at all in the models about what will happen with dragon deaths. She didn't know!

We knew Glint had a plan of sorts, but we didn't know all of it, or how certain parts played a role in it. In S3 we were going off of the information that sudden and drastic releases of magic, without anything in place to stop them, = very very bad for the surrounding region. We knew this because of the bloodstone explosion suddenly reversing because of Balthazar(learned that later) and seeing what happened to the area because of it.

So we ended up accidentally putting Jormag and Primordus to sleep, and rushed to stop Balthazar because we knew he wanted to kill Kralk and unleashing his magic to absorb. We saw that while Balthazar absorbed the blast, he didn't do it instantly. So going off the assumption Kralk (who had more magic in him) would blow up, wreck region, and then Balthazar would gather it up.

Hell, Balthazar dying ended up blasting out a storm that affected the brand before he was absorbed by Aurene and Kralk.

Applying what happened to Jormag and Primordus to what happened to Kralk/Balthazar is just weird, because it's going "Well how come they didn't go into this encounter like they did back when they literally didn't have an Elder dragon there and a lot more data to consider?!"

Aurene also had cut Jormag and Primordus from their ley-lines as part of the plan to force them to fight, and was on hand to absorb the blast. It ended up flowing through her, but that doesn't invalidate the fears of earlier, when, again, we didn't have a friendly Elder Dragon right there.

Zhaitan: No blast, was starved. LA ley-line hit: caused a blast that destroyed the breachmaker and spread to wake up Mordremoth. Mordremoth: Death caused a magical windstorm that swept across the maguuma. Bloodstone: Exploded in a violent blast that ruined the landscape right around it. Balthazar: Created a storm that affected the brand until swallowed. Kralkatorrik: Was directly fed into Aurene, negating a blast. Jormag and Primordus: Died in a blast, but one that swept through Aurene in a focused channel before dissipating. Soo-won: Was weakened and the magic left went into Aurene.

 

1 hour ago, NeverLoseGuy.3894 said:

It pains me even more because according to @Konig Des Todes.2086, The Commander has done rather questionable things towards the fallen god, who at the time was actually "reasonable" and wasn't going to kill the good guys down right. Balthazar could have been one of the allies who helps taking down Kralkratorrik now that we *truly* know how Elder Dragons and the world works as a whole, but this whole "conflict" has been rendered moot, and ultimately, a waste of time. It's really tragic, both in Watsonian view and Doylist view, because Balthazar didn't even need to become a villain, yet he did anyway, and this whole arc is wasted thanks to the revelation (or retcon) in EoD.

He could've been an ally, if he hadn't started off by tricking the Commander and crew and actively causing them to distrust him, which lead to them attacking him.

At which point he turned and fought back and declared them an enemy.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by Kalavier.1097

[Shivan.9438]

Not sure if it's a lore mistake, but Tyria isn't Earth. So why are NPC's using words like "God-d*kitten" "H*ll, and "What on Earth?"

It just opens the way for Earth to be a world that can access Tyria through the mists.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

10 hours ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Not sure if it's a lore mistake, but Tyria isn't Earth. So why are NPC's using words like "God-d*kitten" "H*ll, and "What on Earth?"

It just opens the way for Earth to be a world that can access Tyria through the mists.

SPOILERS FOR HEART OF THORNS AND END OF DRAGONS

Its a way of showing that 250 years of passed from GW1.

 

Most of Tyria is already alot more modern than the same areas in GW1, but it isn't until the Far Shiverpeaks (IBS) and Cantha that we actually "feel" like 250 years have passed. In the real world, our civilisation isn't even remotely similar to what it was 250 years ago, while Tyria had barely changed due to the dragons (with a few exceptions like the Charr becoming more advanced). The intent of the updated dialogue in LWS5 and EoD was to show that without the constant threat, society would progress much how it had in the real world instead of being stuck in time.

 

Keep in mind that this is a fantasy world but the only way to helps us relate to the characters and setting is to use real-world examples. If they tried to do it "right", it would get old quickly; many games have tried to do the "hard fantasy" setting with proper dialogue and everything and they get abandoned by their playerbases rather quickly because its something that leaves no way to relate to it as a real person and becomes boring if not outright irritating.

 

Art will always be enjoyed the most by people when they can place themselves into it. (Also: This is why Trahearne was killed off, because players didn't like how we were "just a soldier in a war").

 

Also, Earth usage in Tyria refers to land and soil, just as it does in the real world. We just call our planet "The Earth" just like call the moon, "The Moon", the sun "The Sun" or the solar system "The Solar System", instead of more appropriate names like Terra, Luna, Sol and Sol System.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Hannelore.8153

[Fueki.4753]

22 minutes ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Also, Earth usage in Tyria refers to land and soil, just as it does in the real world. We just call our planet "The Earth" just like call the moon, "The Moon", the sun "The Sun" or the solar system "The Solar System", instead of more appropriate names like Terra, Luna, Sol and Sol System.

How is it somehow any more appropriate if you literally use the same meanings, just in another language?

If anything, it should be less appropriate to shove in words from another language.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

How is it somehow any more appropriate if you literally use the same meanings, just in another language?

If anything, it should be less appropriate to shove in words from another language.

By this logic why is it appropriate to call swords by the name swords, or shields by the name shields, or any other noun by the same word,  in Guild Wars 2? Any noun should have a completely different word in Tyrian language because why would they come up with with the same term in Tyria right? Obviously theres a point where some narrative concessions have to be made for the sake of writing.

Also, we know humanity comes from another plant in the Guild wars universe.... what if the original human homeworld was Earth, and this language is an ancient holdover?

[Fueki.4753]

21 minutes ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

By this logic why is it appropriate to call swords by the name swords, or shields by the name shields, or any other noun by the same word,  in Guild Wars 2? Any noun should have a completely different word in Tyrian language because why would they come up with with the same term in Tyria right? Obviously theres a point where some narrative concessions have to be made for the sake of writing.

Also, we know humanity comes from another plant in the Guild wars universe.... what if the original human homeworld was Earth, and this language is an ancient holdover?

What's your point here? A game in a fictional world being written almost completely in English (or whichever translation one chooses) is fundamentally different from randomly mixing languages in reality.

If you speak English, it simply is more appropriate to use as many English words as possible, rather than just mixing other languages into it, just for the sake of mixing languages.

The same goes for other languages as well.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Gibson.4036]

Except @Shivan.9438has a point in that translation doesn't mean just inserting words that wouldn't have an equivalent in the language you're translating. "G-D" and "Hell" as expletives come from a specific religious viewpoint that includes eternal suffering due to sin. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything like that in Tyria.

It'd be like putting those words into an English translation of ancient Japanese people so that it would "be relevant" to Westerners.

Bodily functions are pretty universal swear words, but we have stronger taboos against them, so they can't be used in a game of this rating.

It's nice that the writers took the time to create things like "My ears!", "By the alchemy!", "Oh, slag!", "By the Six!", "Balthazar-blasted", "Weed!", "Brambles!" and the like. They're totally relatable, but totally of their world.

Using the soft-swears of Western culture is just shortcut writing.

[Kalavier.1097]

20 hours ago, Shivan.9438 said:

Not sure if it's a lore mistake, but Tyria isn't Earth. So why are NPC's using words like "God-d*kitten" "H*ll, and "What on Earth?"

It just opens the way for Earth to be a world that can access Tyria through the mists.

I mean, gods are a thing in Tyria. I've heard/seen people using "godsdamn" as a variant to reference the multiple gods lol.

We do have a form of hell, in the Realm of Torment. And Earth magic is a thing.

20 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Except @Shivan.9438has a point in that translation doesn't mean just inserting words that wouldn't have an equivalent in the language you're translating. "G-D" and "Hell" as expletives come from a specific religious viewpoint that includes eternal suffering due to sin. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything like that in Tyria.

It'd be like putting those words into an English translation of ancient Japanese people so that it would "be relevant" to Westerners.

Bodily functions are pretty universal swear words, but we have stronger taboos against them, so they can't be used in a game of this rating.

It's nice that the writers took the time to create things like "My ears!", "By the alchemy!", "Oh, slag!", "By the Six!", "Balthazar-blasted", "Weed!", "Brambles!" and the like. They're totally relatable, but totally of their world.

Using the soft-swears of Western culture is just shortcut writing.

 

I'm fairly sure I've heard ingame the used term "Gods!" because you know, Tyria has multiple gods.

Hell, realm of torment much? You know the subsection of the underworld/it's own realm (I forget exactly which it is) that had souls bound to it before and during Nightfall for the simple bit of "being touched by Abaddon's magic"?

The very place the Envoys mentioned when they got hold of Shiro's spirit after the end of Factions and promised he wouldn't be getting out of?

[Fueki.4753]

34 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Except @Shivan.9438has a point in that translation doesn't mean just inserting words that wouldn't have an equivalent in the language you're translating. "G-D" and "Hell" as expletives come from a specific religious viewpoint that includes eternal suffering due to sin. As far as I can tell, there isn't anything like that in Tyria.

It'd be like putting those words into an English translation of ancient Japanese people so that it would "be relevant" to Westerners.

Bodily functions are pretty universal swear words, but we have stronger taboos against them, so they can't be used in a game of this rating.

It's nice that the writers took the time to create things like "My ears!", "By the alchemy!", "Oh, slag!", "By the Six!", "Balthazar-blasted", "Weed!", "Brambles!" and the like. They're totally relatable, but totally of their world.

Using the soft-swears of Western culture is just shortcut writing.

My point was more about him/her saying that using the words for moon, sun etc. from latin-based languages in English context was appropriate.

I never had issues with the complains about NPCs using swear-speech phrases that refer to specific things about our own planet.

 

Edited June 27, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[Gibson.4036]

6 minutes ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

I mean, gods are a thing in Tyria. I've heard/seen people using "godsdamn" as a variant to reference the multiple gods lol.

We do have a form of hell, in the Realm of Torment. And Earth magic is a thing.

 

I'm fairly sure I've heard ingame the used term "Gods!" because you know, Tyria has multiple gods.

Hell, realm of torment much? You know the subsection of the underworld/it's own realm (I forget exactly which it is) that had souls bound to it before and during Nightfall for the simple bit of "being touched by Abaddon's magic"?

The very place the Envoys mentioned when they got hold of Shiro's spirit after the end of Factions and promised he wouldn't be getting out of?

But that's not the same thing as the damnation/redemption framework of Christianity.

It would feel so much more "of Tyria" if a character said "You Tormented fool" instead of "You G-D fool". Or "Go to Abaddon!" Sometimes the writers do that, but then they seem to have defaulted more lately to not bothering.

[Kalavier.1097]

41 minutes ago, Gibson.4036 said:

But that's not the same thing as the damnation/redemption framework of Christianity.

It would feel so much more "of Tyria" if a character said "You Tormented fool" instead of "You G-D fool". Or "Go to Abaddon!" Sometimes the writers do that, but then they seem to have defaulted more lately to not bothering.

Abaddon got scrubbed from history, remember? Until Nightfall very few knew he existed.

[Narcemus.1348]

18 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

Abaddon got scrubbed from history, remember? Until Nightfall very few knew he existed.

Though, of course, in modern Tyria Abaddon's common knowledge to any that care, though since he's dead it's a bit weird. Something related to Dhuum makes more sense to me, honestly. He was the vindictive and unjust god of death. 

[The Greyhawk.9107]

The word 'Hell' has been a part of the game world for over fifteen years.  Prophecies, the original campaign of Guild Wars 1 had an undead mob type called 'Hellhounds' and the name of the final mission in Prophecies was named 'Hell's Precipice'.  Its blindingly obvious that its not the same "Hell" that is described by Christianity but its it still "exists" as part of the Tyrian consciousness and vernacular well before "modern" times.

[Shivan.9438]

It's very akin to Star Wars when Solo goes after Luke on Hoth. 

"But your Ton-Ton will freeze to death."
"Then I'll see you in Hell."

That's more than just odd, that's very specific. Now it does say "In a galaxy far, far, away." Meaning that Star Wars could have taken place in the same universe as Earth. If so, that would clear things up tremendously. If Tyria exists in the same universe as Earth, that would explain the very specific use of words. 

When you have a pantheon of gods, saying God, wouldn't that illicit a response of "which one?" Not to mention it was an Asura that said it. Even if Tyria does exist in the same universe as Earth, how would the Christian god be known about when (to date) there's nothing written about it in Tyrian history.

 

Edit - It's either lazy writing on lore's behalf, or the curtain needs to be pulled back a little more.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Shivan.9438

[Kalavier.1097]

15 hours ago, Shivan.9438 said:

It's very akin to Star Wars when Solo goes after Luke on Hoth. 

"But your Ton-Ton will freeze to death."
"Then I'll see you in Hell."

That's more than just odd, that's very specific. Now it does say "In a galaxy far, far, away." Meaning that Star Wars could have taken place in the same universe as Earth. If so, that would clear things up tremendously. If Tyria exists in the same universe as Earth, that would explain the very specific use of words. 

When you have a pantheon of gods, saying God, wouldn't that illicit a response of "which one?" Not to mention it was an Asura that said it. Even if Tyria does exist in the same universe as Earth, how would the Christian god be known about when (to date) there's nothing written about it in Tyrian history.

 

Edit - It's either lazy writing on lore's behalf, or the curtain needs to be pulled back a little more.

The thing I'd honestly have to put in (and I'm unsure what line you speak of, can you link/explain?) is this.

What in the world says or implies they are talking about "The christian god." Even IRL going "God!" doesn't explicitly mean that one.

Depending on context (please give), it may not be a point where others would reply "What god?" because everybody is just shocked like the speaker is.

[Faridah.8431]

This may be a broader answer than you are looking for, but I think it was a mistake to go the route of multiple playable races coming from GW1. Sure you got more options, but has anyone really been satisfied with the world-building? If anything exploring the cultures, fitting such matters into the story in a satisfying way, etc. all felt shallow because how do you fit so many races into one story. It was a mistake. Quantity does not equal quality.

Mechanically I get why they went this route, but I find the whole era of Charr and Humans being "friends" because "dragons" as wholly unrealistic and lame. And as a human character, not being able to branch your personality and story options based on how you feel on a conflict like this one (as one example) is just another way in which I think the potential depth of a real personal story is just lost. Continuing with this example, the timeline of when the treaty was signed was recent to the game year in which GW2 launched/Personal story, yet everyone acts like its kumbaya best of friends, whereas they could have built up a more satisfying path towards enemies becoming friends in the story had they been able to explore such things. Instead we get a few missions in Field of Ruin and mostly fodder enemies in same map.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Faridah.8431

[Shivan.9438]

2 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

Continuing with this example, the timeline of when the treaty was signed was recent to the game year in which GW2 launched/Personal story, yet everyone acts like its kumbaya best of friends, whereas they could have built up a more satisfying path towards enemies becoming friends in the story had they been able to explore such things. Instead we get a few missions in Field of Ruin and mostly fodder enemies in same map.

 

Exactly. The human/charr treaty should be an event of real magnitude. It's the ending of conflict that has been ongoing for over 200 years. Yet we can run a dungeon, speak to a diplomat who is a Flame Legion defector, and through the miracle of story; Flame Legion is back in the club. This is why I'm a huge supporter of retuning old world content. The whole idea of the treaty needs to be turned into a massive patch with things to do that culminates with the signing of the treaty, some cinematics, and then we all go to meatoberfest or something.

In WoW, the city of Stratholme (instance) burned for over 10 years in real life, yet a crucial part of that story (Scarlet Crusade) was retuned for story progression for promotion of the WotLK expansion, and to show that they're all not just sitting around drum beating about their problems.

[Kalavier.1097]

19 hours ago, Faridah.8431 said:

This may be a broader answer than you are looking for, but I think it was a mistake to go the route of multiple playable races coming from GW1. Sure you got more options, but has anyone really been satisfied with the world-building? If anything exploring the cultures, fitting such matters into the story in a satisfying way, etc. all felt shallow because how do you fit so many races into one story. It was a mistake. Quantity does not equal quality.

Mechanically I get why they went this route, but I find the whole era of Charr and Humans being "friends" because "dragons" as wholly unrealistic and lame. And as a human character, not being able to branch your personality and story options based on how you feel on a conflict like this one (as one example) is just another way in which I think the potential depth of a real personal story is just lost. Continuing with this example, the timeline of when the treaty was signed was recent to the game year in which GW2 launched/Personal story, yet everyone acts like its kumbaya best of friends, whereas they could have built up a more satisfying path towards enemies becoming friends in the story had they been able to explore such things. Instead we get a few missions in Field of Ruin and mostly fodder enemies in same map.

The cease fire was being made during the first part of the story, the treaty was signed at a later point. The dungeon was a party celebrating the cease fire being official.

Neither involved the commander.

You know, the Charr and humans both involved stating the treaty was for future generations, the entire heart showcasing how the Ebon Vanguard and the charr are very uneasy not being enemies, etc.

Hell, the conflict by the time of GW2 early was Ascalon and Charr, not charr and humanity. And the Sea of Sorrow's book actually has from all my research (haven't read the book personally) the Charr were the first ones to try to end the war but the peace offering was stolen by pirates and the new upcoming prince wanted to have an epic victory so he escalated the conflict outside of Ebonhawke.

By the time of the Kralkatorrik's rise you had Ebonhawke vs Charr, with DR just recently actually getting the Asura gate rebuilt to supply the city. The Charr didn't attack Kryta. In ghosts of Ascalon, Charr elements reach out and say "Hey, get the Claw of the Khan Ur back, and it may start peace.". By the time of the personal story Kryta basically shrugs at the whole conflict because the Centaur threat and the Charr legions hadn't been a direct threat to Kryta for a while.

That was the whole point. The war wasn't some live, hot war of constant battles but a slow, hundreds year long siege of a city and little else. Everybody involved had other enemies to fight. Edge of Destiny we outright see Charr and humans in the middle of fighting rally together to fight off a greater threat of Ogres.

 

Nobody acted like things were best of friends. Wasn't until Lake Doric when a Blood warband arrived to help fight off the White Mantle in protection of the treaty that things were truly "Hey friend" between the two races. Individuals outside of the legions and within the orders were friendly but that's been a constant. You have the people in the home military/home cities, and then the people of the order. Rata Sum Asura treat everybody else as idiots. Asura in the orders work willingly with others.

 

17 hours ago, Shivan.9438 said:

 

Exactly. The human/charr treaty should be an event of real magnitude. It's the ending of conflict that has been ongoing for over 200 years. Yet we can run a dungeon, speak to a diplomat who is a Flame Legion defector, and through the miracle of story; Flame Legion is back in the club. This is why I'm a huge supporter of retuning old world content. The whole idea of the treaty needs to be turned into a massive patch with things to do that culminates with the signing of the treaty, some cinematics, and then we all go to meatoberfest or something.

In WoW, the city of Stratholme (instance) burned for over 10 years in real life, yet a crucial part of that story (Scarlet Crusade) was retuned for story progression for promotion of the WotLK expansion, and to show that they're all not just sitting around drum beating about their problems.

 

While the treaty was being worked on, the commander was off dealing with the Risen. They were not involved with the signing of the treaty nor were they a diplomat. And by the time of the treaty signing it's basically the Charr going "Ya we'll stop besieging Ebonhawke and allow them to freely come and go."

 

As for Flame Legion, that's... vastly, incredibly oversimplying what happened?

I mean the Flame legion wasn't even a friendly faction until icebrood saga, which was years after personal story. They had their leadership wiped out, their forces gutted several times, the molten alliance sapping some of their strongest (and those getting wiped out) to the point where Efram was able to seize control and sue for peace at a high cost from Bangar.

The flame legion lost enough people that those sick of fighting and who wanted to just live were able to take power. Efram went from Tribune to Imperator.

 

Flame Legion wasn't even part of the treaty, that was purely Blood, Ash, and Iron. And famously, Blood was not a fan of it but agreed because it's on Iron Legion grounds.

 

As I've said many, many times. The world of Tyria lives and advances. The commander isn't involved in making the fine points of the treaty or Flame Legion suing for peace, so guess what, the Commander isn't involved. We hear what happened/see the aftermath, but we aren't there.

Which is good. The story isn't bogged down by tons of unrelated content. We aren't in the middle of surviving Mordrem in the jungle and have an NPC go on about the details of the Charr-human Treaty and how it'll affect farming in fields of ruin.

We aren't walking around Shing Jea island and hear the fine points of what the Centaurs near Kryta are up to.

We aren't stomping through Orr and learn about the details of the Dredge movements in shiverpeaks.

[Ashen.2907]

I dont know if this is the sort of thing you meant by the title question but:

Having the elder dragons be comprehensible and directly combatable foes rather than forces of nature. I would much rather have seen them as looming eldritch threats, not too unlike the elder gods of the Cthulhu mythos, whose agents seek to awaken in order to bring about an end to the world as we know it. For more comprehensible foes have charismatic and/or vicious champions and their machinations be the evil to be stopped lest the unimaginable might of the elder dragons be unleashed upon an unexpecting and unready world. 

I think that having elder dragons end up being just bigger monsters that we needed to build bigger weapons to defeat was a fundamental mistake that has lessened everything written since.

Edited July 4, 2022 by Ashen.2907

[The Greyhawk.9107]

7 hours ago, Ashen.2907 said:

I dont know if this is the sort of thing you meant by the title question but:

Having the elder dragons be comprehensible and directly combatable foes rather than forces of nature. I would much rather have seen them as looming eldritch threats, not too unlike the elder gods of the Cthulhu mythos, whose agents seek to awaken in order to bring about an end to the world as we know it. For more comprehensible foes have charismatic and/or vicious champions and their machinations be the evil to be stopped lest the unimaginable might of the elder dragons be unleashed upon an unexpecting and unready world. 

I think that having elder dragons end up being just bigger monsters that we needed to build bigger weapons to defeat was a fundamental mistake that has lessened everything written since.

Its what they were going for for a while initially but I think they realized they just couldn't pull it off both from a narrative stand point and from a game play stand point.  Plus I don't think most of the playerbase would have been even remotely satisfied with only either preventing the ED's from fully awakening or putting them back to sleep, people want to kill the Dragon, they want to defeat the Big Bad.

[Labjax.2465]

On 7/4/2022 at 12:41 PM, Ashen.2907 said:

I dont know if this is the sort of thing you meant by the title question but:

Having the elder dragons be comprehensible and directly combatable foes rather than forces of nature. I would much rather have seen them as looming eldritch threats, not too unlike the elder gods of the Cthulhu mythos, whose agents seek to awaken in order to bring about an end to the world as we know it. For more comprehensible foes have charismatic and/or vicious champions and their machinations be the evil to be stopped lest the unimaginable might of the elder dragons be unleashed upon an unexpecting and unready world. 

I think that having elder dragons end up being just bigger monsters that we needed to build bigger weapons to defeat was a fundamental mistake that has lessened everything written since.

I think they were kinda close to this with Mordremoth. Killing it is an "attacking on multiple fronts" kind of endeavor and there's no real one Mordremoth body. Mordremoth "is the jungle" in some sense.

And then from there it fast went downhill into "elder dragons are very very very large dragons" (and get bigger because of consuming more magic or something?). Maybe somewhere around the time they decided to humanize them with Aurene, they had to make them more of a corporeal entity so you could relate to Aurene. Idk, all I can guess as to why.

Edit: Nm, I forgot they did the "very very very large dragon" thing with Zhaitan even before Mordremoth. So I guess Mordremoth was just the exception to the rule for some reason. Although Zhaitain did at least have entities beyond it that directly related to its feeding and such.

Edited July 6, 2022 by Labjax.2465