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What's GW2's biggest lore mistake according to you?


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6 hours ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Oh, Elonian centaurs hating Kournans is a pretty blatant plot point. The entire reason they work with the Sunspears is because they hate the Kournans who enslaved them and want to take them down.

And in The Wilds mission, the Maguuma and Shiverpeak centaurs (Harathi and Modniir) are actively dissing Krytans and wanting to reignite war with them. Meanwhile, the Losaru are actively known to eat humans just because they can. In the Far Shiverpeaks, the Modniir launch a full out assault against the small group of humans present just because they can.

Only Ventari was the peaceful to humans.

And in GW2, Ulgoth reignites that war that began in 300 AE because of racism.

Except that they aren't. You quoted one out of context line by Rytlock talking to Logan, and ignore the fact that Rytlock has a personal grudge about Logan, and later admits that said grudge was just him being in denial about his own failures.

 

You are actively ignoring facts for the sake of painting a false narrative.

Ascalonians did fight back. That's my entire point. And they didn't let charr take over, they lost a war due to a forgotten god and a mad king.

Pyre:

"You show the cunning of a Charr and have no fear. For that, you have my respect, human. When the time comes that we must fight again, I shall not aim at you."

 

Yes, I too can take selective quotes without context and paint a specific light on characters and groups.

Well. You brought up the centaurs, not me.

Hating Kournan slavers isn't the same as hating an entire race.

Let's not forget that it was Zhed that sought  human alliance. 

The "Two legs" term isn't also necessarily a hate speech term.

Zhed did apologise. Even though he whispered it again.

He could have just told you to grow up or toughen up.

 

You can put up all the context you like, it still doesn't change the fact that charr hate humans for once upon a time have taken Ascalon from them.

You know that.

The only reason they have become "friendlier", in my understanding, was because of the dragon's threat.

 

Charr ate humans. 

They even called them meat; even as an ally, they still speak down to humans as weak, and a lower class than them.

I never heard of centaurs eating humans, just because they could.

But charr did.

 

Pyre Fierceshot is an exceptional case.

I did mention that I'm a fan of his.

I do like this quote a lot.

"A storm is coming. The shamans will not go down easy. I may return someday, but for now, I'm content to fight at your side."

 

 

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Not killing Braham the first time he opens his mouth.

"Biggest lore mistake" is a really broad question. And horribly subjective. What do you mean by "lore mistake"? Writing philosophy? Story direction? (Unnecessary) retcons, be it soft or hard? Somethin

I feel like rushing IBS and Jormag's demise are a little to obvious as an answer, so maybe we'll say "besides this one".

10 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Well. You brought up the centaurs, not me.

Hating Kournan slavers isn't the same as hating an entire race.

Let's not forget that it was Zhed that sought  human alliance. 

The "Two legs" term isn't also necessarily a hate speech term.

Zhed did apologise. Even though he whispered it again.

He could have just told you to grow up or toughen up.

Yes, I brought up centaurs, because you claimed that only the charr hate and choose to war with humans. This is blatantly false, as I've pointed out.

Charr don't hate the entire human race, they hate Ascalonians. They only launched an assault on Orr and Kryta because the titans - directed by Abaddon - told them to.

And let's not forget that it was Pyre that sought human alliance. Both did so because of necessity. Or as Pyre says: only a fool abandons his best weapons.

The two-legs is completely a hate speech and condescending term. Just like "meat" used by charr.

Zhed "apologized" and then straight up called the PC two-legs behind their back 5 seconds later. That's not actually apologizing, and he didn't further insult the Nightfall PC because he needed the Sunspears to free his people and keep them safe from Kournans.

 

And this all completely ignores the rest of centaurs, just as you ignore Pyre in favor of the worst of the charr - the complete inverse of what you're doing for centaurs.

10 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You can put up all the context you like, it still doesn't change the fact that charr hate humans for once upon a time have taken Ascalon from them.

You know that.

The only reason they have become "friendlier", in my understanding, was because of the dragon's threat.

And that doesn't change the fact that centaurs hate humans for once upon a time having taken Kourna and Kryta away from them. And it doesn't change the fact that tengu hate humans for once upon a time having taken Shing Jea and Kryta from them, and nearly wiping them out in Cantha. Twice. Even in Echovald, there's some serious anti-human commentary going on.

 

And actually, per the novel Sea of Sorrows, charr attempted peace before Zhaitan rose - before the Elder Dragons were a threat to anyone other than the norn. So no, it wasn't just peace solely because of the dragon's threat.

10 minutes ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Charr ate humans. 

They even called them meat; even as an ally, they still speak down to humans as weak, and a lower class than them.

I never heard of centaurs eating humans, just because they could.

But charr did.

"Most feared among the desert Centaurs are man-eating Orshad Raiders who make their home in the Scar."

They certainly don't eat humans out of survival - plenty of other wildlife to eat.

 

And humans skinned charr and wore their hides as trophies, and refer to the charr as animals, talking down to them as a lower class. Ascalonians aren't exactly innocent here.

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19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Yes, I brought up centaurs, because you claimed that only the charr hate and choose to war with humans.

This is blatantly false, as I've pointed out.

Seriously, you keep taking things out of context from my first reply to OP.

You can throw everything you want; it wont change the fact that my own personal oppinion, in reply to OP, humans should have not lost the war in Ascalon.

That's my own choice.

You cannot change that no matter what you bring up.

It's not going to change anything in the game, anyways;  so why do you care so much?

 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Charr don't hate the entire human race, they hate Ascalonians.

 

False.

Wrong and you know it.

They might not do now, but they did for many centuries.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

They only launched an assault on Orr and Kryta because the titans - directed by Abaddon - told them to.

They still did... and I'm sure it wouldn't take a lot of persuasion anyways.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And let's not forget that it was Pyre that sought human alliance.

Wrong again.

Humans found him in a charr prison.

Gwen was about tonkill him when he mentioned that he knew where the ebon vanguard were being held for sacrifices to the destroyers.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Both did so because of necessity.

Well. Yes. But mostly out of desperation. 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Or as Pyre says: only a fool abandons his best weapons.

Yeah. 

"Honour be darned"

Exactly! Enough said.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

The two-legs is completely a hate speech and condescending term.

No it isn't. 

He was even kinda joking about it.

It wasn't said in an aggressive manner. 

Disrespectful maybe, but not discriminatory. 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

Just like "meat" used by charr.

Because charr ate humans.

So this is racism at its worse.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Zhed "apologized" and then straight up called the PC two-legs behind their back 5 seconds later.

Humorously. 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

That's not actually apologizing, and he didn't further insult the Nightfall PC because he needed the Sunspears to free his people and keep them safe from Kournans.

They both needed eachother.

Common interest.

If there were no humans in the camp, he would have not sought out the humans. 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

 

And this all completely ignores the rest of centaurs, just as you ignore Pyre in favor of the worst of the charr - the complete inverse of what you're doing for centaurs.

Am not a fan of centaurs.

I quite despise them myself.

So much so, that I would much rather humans continuing a war with a worthy opponent. The charr; in Ascalon, as I mentioned on my first reply.

 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And that doesn't change the fact that centaurs hate humans for once upon a time having taken Kourna and Kryta away from them.

Can't comment here.

I don't know this part of the story, so can't say if it's false info.

I'll take your word for it.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And it doesn't change the fact that tengu hate humans for once upon a time having taken Shing Jea and Kryta from them, and nearly wiping them out in Cantha. Twice. Even in Echovald, there's some serious anti-human commentary going on.

This is true.

But has nothing to do with my initial point.

 

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

And actually, per the novel Sea of Sorrows, charr attempted peace before Zhaitan rose - before the Elder Dragons were a threat to anyone other than the norn. So no, it wasn't just peace solely because of the dragon's threat.

That's not what Ghosts of Ascalon Novel says. 

Charr actually hunt down humans.

They breached Lion's Arch through the sewers only to try kill as many humans as they possibly could.

Read it.

19 minutes ago, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

"Most feared among the desert Centaurs are man-eating Orshad Raiders who make their home in the Scar."

They certainly don't eat humans out of survival - plenty of other wildlife to eat.

 

And humans skinned charr and wore their hides as trophies, and refer to the charr as animals, talking down to them as a lower class. Ascalonians aren't exactly innocent here.

Well. Fight fire with fire.

Charr ate humans; humans wore their skin.

 

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3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Seriously, you keep taking things out of context from my first reply to OP.

Subsequent replies are relevant context to respond to... I was never disagreeing with your personal opinion. I was disagreeing with the "facts" you were using to back your opinion up.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

You can throw everything you want; it wont change the fact that my own personal oppinion, in reply to OP, humans should have not lost the war in Ascalon.

That's my own choice.

You cannot change that no matter what you bring up.

That's one thing.

But saying that "humans ran away" isn't a subjective opinion, you're proclaiming a fact. Saying "charr hate all humans and no other race did" isn't a subjective opinion, you're proclaiming fact.

That is what I have been replying to, from the beginning.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

False.

Wrong and you know it.

They might not do now, but they did for many centuries.

They hated Ascalonians. There's a difference.

Khilbron destroyed Orr because it was losing to the charr. And the charr respect his actions.

Adelbern cursed Ascalon because it was losing to the charr. And the charr detest his actions.

Similar reasons and outcomes, but different views. Why? Because one is related to Ascalon, and the other isn't, despite both being humans.

This is but one example.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Wrong again.

Humans found him in a charr prison.

Gwen was about tonkill him when he mentioned that he knew where the ebon vanguard were being held for sacrifices to the destroyers.

I suggest you re-read the dialogue. Pyre was the one to initiate bargaining, and he was the one to have the upper hand in the bargaining despite being in the prison cell.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Yeah. 

"Honour be darned"

Exactly! Enough said.

And here you once more take a tiny portion of dialogue out of context. Language and human emotions are nuanced things where taking a soundbite out of context greatly changes the interpretation rather drastically. You're proving a fallicious argument by doing just that.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Because charr ate humans.

So this is racism at its worse.

There is actually no proof that charr ever ate humans. The closest thing we get is this line from Vael:

"I spied some Charr a few days ago dragging a sack into their cooking tent. A wriggling, talking sack. What do you make of that?"

But that's not proof in the least. He doesn't specify who or what was in it, coulda been a grawl for all we know, nor what they did with it in the cooking tent. You're proclaiming a fact with zero actual evidence backing it. Again.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

That's not what Ghosts of Ascalon Novel says. 

Charr actually hunt down humans.

They breached Lion's Arch through the sewers only to try kill as many humans as they possibly could.

Read it.

Well. Fight fire with fire.

Charr ate humans; humans wore their skin.

Ghosts of Ascalon novel takes 100 years after the attempt at peace failed because some pirates stole the peace offerings from Iron Legion to Kryta. The charr do not "actually hunt down humans", they are at war with Ascalonians - there's quite a huge difference. Namely the difference between acts of war and acts of sport.

And they did not breach the Lion's Arch sewers. 1) You're thinking of Ebonhawke, 2) that is what they wanted to try, but the sewers were trapped and out of reach, so they simply stationed a warband at its exit to monitor. The squad that Dougal and co. encountered in the sewers were Ebon Vanguard, not charr. No charr stepped foot in Ebonhawke (aside from Ember) in the novel, and the only fights in Lion's Arch were against Glagg and later Gullik.

I have read the novel, and though it was many years ago, I apparently remember it better than you.

3 hours ago, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Well. Fight fire with fire.

Charr ate humans; humans wore their skin.

Gotta wonder which was first though, and that only proves that Ascalonians were just as bad as the charr.

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8 hours ago, Eekasqueak.7850 said:

I'll never understand people who want Charr to be just generic evil bad guys. 

That's not it at all.

I actually like the charr over norn, and Sylvari... equally as much as asura.

I just think imo the story should have gone a different way in pre-searing.

Is it not apparent that I do have a huge issue with losing the beautiful, peaceful land of ascalon... to become an ugly, warzone, totally desyroyed wasteland because of Charr?

I thought you had figured it out by now.

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On 8/3/2022 at 5:04 AM, Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

Subsequent replies are relevant context to respond to... I was never disagreeing with your personal opinion. I was disagreeing with the "facts" you were using to back your opinion up.

That's one thing.

Nope. You just cunningly conveyed the conversation to your side of the field to try prove me wrong.

You're half smart. I'll give you that.

 

You still aren't going to change my oppinion. 

Because trying to divert the attention from my op isn't as smart as you think.

You're just derailing the post in order to cause a pointless argument.

You just keep hitting a steel wall.

So this all argument is null and void.

Quote

But saying that "humans ran away" isn't a subjective opinion, you're proclaiming a fact. Saying "charr hate all humans and no other race did" isn't a subjective opinion, you're proclaiming fact.

I never said that. You did.

I was refering to the other main 3 races, and you know it. Don't twist my words in order to rewrite what I wrote.

You know I meant Norn, Asura, and now Sylvari. 

Quote

That is what I have been replying to, from the beginning.

They hated Ascalonians. There's a difference.

You are in denial my friend.

You just keep quoting bits of history that is most convenient for you.

Still pointless. 

Quote

Khilbron destroyed Orr because it was losing to the charr. And the charr respect his actions.

More hate towards humans.

Care to rethink your position in this?

You are involuntarily agreeing with me.

Quote

Adelbern cursed Ascalon because it was losing to the charr. And the charr detest his actions.

Yes. Offcourse. What's your point?

Again. Another proof how much charr hated humans.

Quote

Similar reasons and outcomes, but different views. Why? Because one is related to Ascalon, and the other isn't, despite both being humans.

This is but one example.

So why charr kept human hostages for so many years?

It's not like they need bargain chips.

They were merely soldiers and peasants. Not someone worth keeping prisioner.

It shows charr nature.

Quote

I suggest you re-read the dialogue. Pyre was the one to initiate bargaining, and he was the one to have the upper hand in the bargaining despite being in the prison cell.

He only just met gwen.

How could he possibly know how much gwen wants to find the ebon vanguard! ?

It was the Hero he negotiates with, not gwen.

I don't need to re-read. I played through this over 30 times +.

Pyre is really smart. True! 

That's why I'm a huge fan of his.

Hence why he's the leader of the Fierce Warband.

He did detect the desperation in gwen.

But she wasn't in control of the situation.

The Hero is.

 

Then this:

"Fear rots her heart"

"Can you blame her?"

"No... She was a prisioner of the charr..."

I won't say no more.

Quote

And here you once more take a tiny portion of dialogue out of context.

So yours is always in context but mine isn't? 

You're the one who intruded in a simple "own oppinion post.

Quote

 

Language and human emotions are nuanced things where taking a soundbite out of context greatly changes the interpretation rather drastically. You're proving a fallicious argument by doing just that.

There is actually no proof that charr ever ate humans. The closest thing we get is this line from Vael:

"I spied some Charr a few days ago dragging a sack into their cooking tent. A wriggling, talking sack. What do you make of that?"

 

This is a 12 rated game.

You don't need visual proof.

The mere fact that charr call humans meat and weaklings is proof enough.

Quote

But that's not proof in the least. He doesn't specify who or what was in it, coulda been a grawl for all we know, nor what they did with it in the cooking tent. You're proclaiming a fact with zero actual evidence backing it. Again.

Ok. Again. Let's ask Anet to put up graphical evidence to a 12 rated game of charr eating humans after killing them in battle.

Quote

Ghosts of Ascalon novel takes 100 years after the attempt at peace failed because some pirates stole the peace offerings from Iron Legion to Kryta. The charr do not "actually hunt down humans", they are at war with Ascalonians - there's quite a huge difference. Namely the difference between acts of war and acts of sport.

And they did not breach the Lion's Arch sewers. 1) You're thinking of Ebonhawke, 2) that is what they wanted to try, but the sewers were trapped and out of reach, so they simply stationed a warband at its exit to monitor. The squad that Dougal and co. encountered in the sewers were Ebon Vanguard, not charr. No charr stepped foot in Ebonhawke (aside from Ember) in the novel, and the only fights in Lion's Arch were against Glagg and later Gullik.

I have read the novel, and though it was many years ago, I apparently remember it better than you.

Gotta wonder which was first though, and that only proves that Ascalonians were just as bad as the charr.

That maybe so. But it's not human nature to be that bad.

It is a necessary evil in order to protect the masses and for the greater good.

I may have forgotten exact details about the book, but still does not change anything, when there are other people who also are of the same oppinion that charr and humans should not be 'friends' but allies at best... because... dragons.

 

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On 5/11/2022 at 9:09 PM, Diovid.9506 said:

The lack of interesting Norn story and respect for Norn culture maybe? All races other than Humans suffer from that to some extent but none as much as the Norn. And I say that as a non-Norn main.

 

But that also ties into your remark about IBS. Jormag was the Norn dragon but the story dealt more with the Charr than anything else. The whole tooth prophecy didn't seem to matter much either. 

Also Drakkar...

It is a sort of hammerhead dinosaur, when you see it beneath the ice.

In gw2 is a totally different creature altogether. 

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On 5/12/2022 at 10:04 AM, Dadnir.5038 said:

Druids... Druids (as the ranger's e-spec) are for me the biggest lore mistake of GW2.

If they were going to make them so different from what GW's druid were supposed to be then they should have called them differently. From my point of view GW2 druids are closer to the concept of "Oracle" that we find in GW: Faction.

They are a complete failure imho.

Celestial mode has nothing to do with real Druids who actually draw healing power and other abilities from nature and use it in pets.

 

Untamed is more of a druid than druid is.

 

The staff is the correct weapon for druid, but its blue laser beam that fails to fire more often than not is a disaster. 

 

This Elite Spec needs a major rework.

Celestial mode removed or changed to a toggled  permanent stance, and a similar effect to that of untamed and soulbeast.

 

Abilities are drawn from the type of terrain you're in.

Eg, Plant life, water, earth, ice.

That's a real druid.

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1 hour ago, Gibson.4036 said:

Biggest lore mistake was making techno magic essentially limitless in its potential. Too many problems are solved by, “if we can just give enough time to figure out this techno magic solution.”

Kinda like Star Trek, though classic Trek did at least put some very soft limitations on their technology.  

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The Dragon Cycle, the whole of it as it meant that every narrative at some point had to be about the dragons. PoF was ultimately about the Elder Dragons even though Balthazar was the antagonist. Kralk was the McGuffin the plot revolved around.

The existence of the Dragon Cycle has also been responsible for making several major factions jokes within the lore.

LW s3 ruined The White Mantle because they had to be carted out of the way to make room for more Elder Dragons.

PoF ruined what could had been an interesting story about Balthazar to be about an Elder Dragon McGuffin.

LW s4 ruined Joko and made him a joke villain in order to focus on an Elder Dragon

IBS, the Charr Civil War was interesting and if it had been about the madness of a charismatic leader who felt that the world was passing him by it could had been interesting. It was about that and it was interesting, and then Jormag was introduced and the Charr Civil War was sidelined to make room for the Elder Dragons. Even if IBS had been longer it would ultimately just had been a prolonged dissapointment instead of a short one.

EoD had a pretty interesting story with twists and turns, until Soo-Won became a part of it and then it could only go one way. After her defeat in the story a conversation in the command room of Arborstone between the Speakers and the Brotherhood sums up everything wrong with The Dragon Cycle from a narrative standpoint. "The moment we leave this room we're back to being enemies; we only worked with you because the world was at stake."

And that was the base issue with The Dragon Cycle, it was so all-encompassing that either people were on board to stop it or they were inconsequential. There was no room for personal coflict.

Without The Dragon Cycle being a giant weight on ANet I hope the company can go back to making interesting stories and use it as a chance to salvage soome of the things they have ruined.

Whatever LW s6 is called it should obviously focus on Cantha. A good point would be the ressurgence of the Ministry of Purity. The leader of it is still out there and alive after 250 years, which is a mystery in itself.

LW s7 should take us back to Kryta.

Chapter 1: The White Mantle is oddly enough back and we're asked by Anise to find out what's going on since The Mantle was supposed to had been destroyed with the death of Lazerus. In our investigation we learn that The White Mantle is now using cultists from all races instead of being a human only organisation.

Chapter 2: We go around to the various races, do some work for them to get them to listen to us, and warns them off the danger that the ressurected White Mantle poses to everyone. During this chapter we find out that The White Mantle is no longer focused on the human kingdom and instead wants all of Kryta (the inhabited areas).

Chapter 3: The White Mantle we fight now is also far better organised than it was in the past, instead of mere disorganised cultists they're more like an army now. We go into battle with them as they push down from the north. It's no longer a battle fought in the shadow, this is all-out war and The Shining Blade is woefully inadequate to handle that so we go back to the other races and ask them for legit military aid.

Chapter 4: Facing stiff resistance in our fight against The White Mantle we decide to go covert and take out some of their leaders. However, we find that taking some of them out does nothing to the army's overal command structure or ability to fight as the commanders are easily replaced. We decide to do one final strike against a major White Mantle leader that will be impossible to replace. During our infiltration we learn that The Mantle now has smaller Jade Constructs, meaner, and more autonomous than the ones we fought in Ember Bay. These are newly made constructs instead of the old remants we've fought before.

Chapter 5: The appearence of the Jade Constructs makes us realise that we need better intel than what we have and the result of our digging unearths a shattering revalation; the Mursaat are back, or rather a new faction than the old White Mantle Mursaat. They went into seperate hiding in a Mist Realm during the last active period of the Elder Dragons. Something went wrong though and their way out only opened after Soon-Won's death. They've been using the time between then and now to reconquer the Janthir Isles and get acquainted with this new reality. They found a ready-made force they could tap into in the form of The White Mantle and expanded it as well as beginning construction of better Jade Constructs. We now have a target, the Janthir Isles.

Chapter 6: We enter an area to use as a staging ground in our war against The White Mantle and the Mursaat and prepare to push with the Janthir Isles to end the Mursaat threat once and for all. This battle ends in a slaugter  on us as the Mursaat are prepared for this and their White Mantle armies are backed up by far more constructs than we anticipated. As we lick our wounds and decide on a new strategy the trailer for the 4th expansion playes and shows that we'll infiltrate into the Janthir Isles and free the residents there, who're none-too-happy being under Mursaat rule, to bolster our forces.

Doing it like this would rehabilitate both the Mursaat and The White Mantle. The latter was a joke in LW s3 with either a leader who in his narcissism was staggeringly incompetent or a leader who was staggeringly fake. The Lazerus of the last chapter was just an afterthought that had no place in the main story. The Mursaat should go out with a bang instead of a whimper and that Lazerus went out with a decided whimper. Xera's White Mantle of the HoT raids was far more intimidating than Caudacus' White Mantle who was just a joke to tide us over into something related to the Elder Dragons.

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On 8/4/2022 at 10:21 AM, SoulGuardian.6203 said:

Celestial mode has nothing to do with real Druids who actually draw healing power and other abilities from nature and use it in pets.

-_- Real Druids were Celtic priests who, amongst other things, handled the blood sacrifices.

What you see as "real Druids" are the D&D fantasy Druids.

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2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

LWS7 idea

Gonna have to hard disagree here.

The White Mantle was never a particularly large organization since their fall at the end of GW1(hence having to hide out in the jungle, and operate via proxies like bandits, and a handful of Ministry agents in GW2) They were never some large mega-army who could've posed a real threat to Kryta outside of internal espionage, and a surprise attack while hyped up on bloodstone dust.

  1. Having them come back just invalidates everything we did in LWS3. Even if you don't like LWS3, good writing builds upon past writing, it doesn't just ignore it.("Somehow Palpatine returned" isn't good writing.)
  2. Having them now be multi-species defeats the entire point of the Mantle's racist human-centrism. These sorts of organizations don't just become open to everyone at the tip of a hat like that(look at any number of real world racist hate groups)
  3. Even if they tried to become more open.... why would anyone WANT to join them given their past history?
  4. Even if a handful of others did join them for some reason they wouldn't pose a threat to the forces of the five major races which are now more unified then ever.
  5. Any Mursaat that have been stuck in the outer realms since the last dragon rise would be so disconnected from the Mursaat that started the Mantle back in GW1 that it doesn't make sense they would be as evil as the Mursaat from GW1.
  6. We already discovered the magics to resist Jade constructs in both GW1 and in GW2. That power is already long negated.
2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The Mursaat should go out with a bang instead of a whimper and that Lazerus went out with a decided whimper.

The Mursaat did go out with a bang.

They made one last giant assault on Kryta at the end of the "War in Kryta" story arc in GW1 Beyond, which resulted in the near genocide of what remained of their race at the hands of the Krytans and allies. Lazarus was the sole survivor of a dead race, desperately trying to seek revenge on a world that had already moved so far past him, and the ground his race founded, that they couldn't even see him in the rear view anymore.

He shouldn't be a big deal, the Mursaat stopped being a big deal back in GW1.

Edited by Sajuuk Khar.1509
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2 hours ago, Malus.2184 said:

The Dragon Cycle, the whole of it as it meant that every narrative at some point had to be about the dragons. PoF was ultimately about the Elder Dragons even though Balthazar was the antagonist. Kralk was the McGuffin the plot revolved around.

The existence of the Dragon Cycle has also been responsible for making several major factions jokes within the lore.

 

Honestly yeah. The dragon cycle wasn't a bad idea at first, and while it was done better than Trehearne hijacking the Core story to some degree, i did feel like coming from the perspective of a newcomer, that it seemed to kinda hijack the story as it went from a traveler building up their own story as they adventured into the world. Into a confused wanderer, is suddenly given a dragon they are told that they raised (DLC), that they don't know why they're supposed to be attached to yet (DLC), who then wanders into a forest and watches 1-2 dragons they're told to be hunting suddenly commit suicide when they thought they were hunting. (Something like pof Rytlock: "There's no good dragon but a DEAD dragon.." "It looks like it's been learning to defend itself from the branded." "Great, Now it's a dangerous and CLEVER living dragon." 

 

I may easily have remembered the story wrong, but even as someone who usually gets into story lore like WOTLK and the rise of Arthas, Loved the mission storytelling of sc1 as you saw Mengsk, decay from a abandoned border squad left to die and be infested by the zerg, fall apart as he came to save you, only to find out he wanted to USE you, fighting the people he made you SAVE who were previously leaving you to die. How Pre infestation kerrigan had moments of hesistance, but believed that Mengsk would turn around, and become a better person. Only to be betrayed and left for dead as she realized too late in this universe, putting your faith in the intentionally deceitful could have deadly consequences. 

 

Even in L4d2, a game that doesn't have much of a written story, i loved reading the writings on the walls of people describing their family turning into monsters in front of them. The empty quarantine zones, the halls of BODIES where nothing is left said other than a note they were shooting the living out of fear of "carriers", those who were immune to the disease but able to spread it. Even within the game, which is a zombie mowing shooter, you have moments where the characters act like the characters instead of people reading lines of a sheet of paper emotionlessly with a slight hint of impatient/irritation to get it over with. 

It's easy to bond with the characters, because they're human, spend time with you, and are fun and even if it's just coop when you hear their death or downed lines you feel bad when one dies. Even if the player playing them was a total tool. XD 

But Gw2? Honestly i know the feeling i'm supposed to feel on character death ISN'T supposed to be Apathy / Uncaring. But people make points about how after level 30, the race you picked stops starting to feel like the race you started as. Your Charr becomes the same as any generic human, even during the IBS missions if there was unique dialog, it all felt the same if there were any spots that targeted you being one.

Many characters are flat or super one dimensional. With motivations like "I just started a world threatening apocalypse of the week because i SAW the future!" -> "The future was that i was just bored, Bleargh *dies*" 

 

You have deaths (spoilers ofc), Teased that are built up, but often end up like dead or devoid of emotional impact, and it does kinda feel like the whole world becomes a side mission. Lots of people also point out their favorite time in WoW as wotlk where you felt like a common soldier in a big world. The world was immersive, your story felt like yours, with a big imposing presence as you could level fighting corruption in the Fjords and saving a common dragon.

Fighting against the dragonflight's corruption while the Lich king watched silently, raising the very dead to fight you as you went to icecrown in millitary camps sent to fight. Before it became all about the "CHAM'YUN!! YE NEED TO SAVE azzyroth's wounds! Go gather yer 5000 azerite and pick flowers to save the world cham'yun!" "Champ'yun! ONLY you can save us! Jaina broke her nails, Ye have to obtain 47 wolf ichors and 5 vile spider venom to help her fix her wounds!". In some ways, being the "CHOSEN ONE TM" kinda detracts from the story, it highlights how silly some of the tasks are when the world is supposedly constantly at stake yet you go around fixing leather bags, teleporting away from the apocalypse to pick winter berries. And so much of the potential stories, the tension, the race/class conflict. The enemy races.

 

All of that just becomes secondary to a story that feels like it becomes. "Aurene! Aurene! Aurene absorb the magic! yay, The world is about to end. Use Aurene to absorb the bad maguffin magic! Oh no! the other dragon #5 is becoming evil after Dragon #1, Dragon #2, dragon number 3 all became evil and Dragon #4 yeeted themselves. But aurene is immune, because she's also a dragon, but a magic dragon that is immune to magic with the powers of 10 MM Sure why not plot armor!! Oh no! Aurene is dead Because she ate too much magic. Oh wait, nevermind. She resurrected herself 20 minutes later because Joko was in her tummy.[Actual plot point] That's totally how magic works in this universe!!" 

I mean, i don't think there aren't mmorpgs with worse stories and the voice acting is still nice, and entire continents for like 2$ a map aren't bad. It's just that like. for the mostly middling story parts. It does kinda feel like the whole dragon plot takes over the whole game in a very shallow, unfulfilling way. And if you unlock dlc in the order that gives rewards (ls4 for skyscale, ls3:3 for winter berries). it seems like pretty much the Whole(?) story is about aurene(Ls3/4/ Post POF) or Aurene's egg.(LS2/HoT).

And it does kinda feel like so many plots devolve away from the character solving plots and a personal story. But to the story of Aurene and Aurene's caretaker who could very easily be a very confused players who skipped or couldn't know they were expected to spend 10-50$ + 15-50$ on the Childcaring and bonding with baby aurene childcare dlcs.

I know you were supposed to bond with her in DLC in Ls3, but it just came too late before every story did seem like it was a repeat 3x of "Oh noes, the last good elder dragon turned into a EVIL elder dragon number 1, 2, and 3, and 5! Use the good elder dragon to absorb magic, self resurrect, and then live happily ever after!". 

I'm not saying the writing isn't uh. A different take than the usual. "Good guy, stab the bad guy! YAY! the world is saved!" But i mean. The characters do move like it's very evident they're voice actors who are told to read a line and move on. They don't really have drama, they don't really live out their characters. Factions like the speakers and brotherhood and the flame legion and normal charr are deadly enemies who poison and kidnap one moment, and Big best friends for 5 minutes the next, and then back to enemies, etc.

Even the more simpler depth moments of sc2 that get lauded for instance, still shows character complexity as Raynor struggles upon meeting Kerrigan, reinfest herself (completely undoing ALL the work he did, as well as a symbol of returning into the genocicial monster she once was after he tried to work to save her and killed his closest allies as well as murdered General Warfield. A commander just trying to save his men, simply for serving her enemy mengsk). The characters may be flatter than sc1, but they still have depth, moments of conflict. Frusteration, betrayal, sadness and remorse. Gw2, all you get is Braham moping around his mother for a while and then his mother comes back as a ghost and says He's a dissapointment to her while he runs around screaming from spiders. (The maps added with each LS are pretty well done though. ) 

 

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18 hours ago, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Gonna have to hard disagree here.

The White Mantle was never a particularly large organization since their fall at the end of GW1(hence having to hide out in the jungle, and operate via proxies like bandits, and a handful of Ministry agents in GW2) They were never some large mega-army who could've posed a real threat to Kryta outside of internal espionage, and a surprise attack while hyped up on bloodstone dust.

  1. Having them come back just invalidates everything we did in LWS3. Even if you don't like LWS3, good writing builds upon past writing, it doesn't just ignore it.("Somehow Palpatine returned" isn't good writing.)

 

And the "chapter 1" suggestion literally they post is "Oddly enough, the mantle are back" which is exactly the problem of the very line you quote lol.

 

S3 ended with the Mantle destroyed, utterly, unlike in War in Kryta.

Their finances and resources were stolen by Balthazar posing as Lazarus. The faction split in two, the religious, and the power hungry/not as zealous. The former were weakened/leadership destroyed by the raid team. The rest were tricked and if they didn't join Balthazar, they got robbed, killed, or imprisoned (you can IIRC find them in cells in Draconis Mons)

The rest, which weren't as religious but desired power over Kryta rallied under Caudecus for one final charge against DR, hoping the Minister meeting would kill Jennah and they'd sweep aside any resistance. Then Blood Legion showed up to help, the Queen wasn't killed and the city was protected. The last remnants we see are the remote outposts where leaders are getting desperate to hold onto any control, consuming bloodstone.

The resources are gone. The armies shattered and the leaders dead. There was no escape plan to regroup like in War in Kryta. There was no more backups.

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2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

The resources are gone. The armies shattered and the leaders dead. There was no escape plan to regroup like in War in Kryta. There was no more backups.

Yeah, having the Mantle comes back would be like having the Svanir or Flame Legion come back in force

  • We demolished the Svanir throughout the core maps, Bitterfrost, Bjora, Drizzlewood, and the DRMs. We killed the Fraenir, the highest ranking Svanir hand pick by Jormag. And we killed Jormag itself, the very thing the Svanir worshiped and were "led" by.
  • We likewise did the same for the Flame Legion, with much of the remnants coming back under the fold while being led by Efram. And we were able to establish some sort of peaceful dialogue with the remaining hostile ones after the DRM at the Flame Citadel.
  • The Nightmare court I could see coming back in a small fashion if Anet ever gets around to doing a release or two on the Malyck plot.
  • But the Inquest just needs to go IMO. We've destroyed so many bases, and killed so many personnel, its gone beyond stretching belief that they still operate straight into Saturday morning cartoon villain tropes. Maybe ONE more big base in Cantha, where they finished their dragon hybrid monster research, but that really should be it for them. They're so overplayed.
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On 8/13/2022 at 5:43 PM, Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

Yeah, having the Mantle comes back would be like having the Svanir or Flame Legion come back in force

  • The Nightmare court I could see coming back in a small fashion if Anet ever gets around to doing a release or two on the Malyck plot.
  • But the Inquest just needs to go IMO. We've destroyed so many bases, and killed so many personnel, its gone beyond stretching belief that they still operate straight into Saturday morning cartoon villain tropes. Maybe ONE more big base in Cantha, where they finished their dragon hybrid monster research, but that really should be it for them. They're so overplayed.

TBH I think the nightmare court shouldn't come back, or if they do it HAS to be in a small scale manner. IMO, they survived because they are so focused on the pale tree (and literally driven subconsciously to spread nightmare) so they barely interacted with the other nations/groups, and thus never were a major threat.

If they came back as a major foe for an arc, I can't see the faction surviving any sort of military campaign. But if we did an isolated arc with some nightmare (like the toxic alliance stuff) that didn't really get huge? could be interesting.

 

Inquest I just don't want in Cantha at all. They've been everywhere and lost a lot. They survive because of politics in Rata sum and the Arcane council being stubborn and arrogant.

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2 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

TBH I think the nightmare court shouldn't come back, or if they do it HAS to be in a small scale manner. IMO, they survived because they are so focused on the pale tree (and literally driven subconsciously to spread nightmare) so they barely interacted with the other nations/groups, and thus never were a major threat.

If they came back as a major foe for an arc, I can't see the faction surviving any sort of military campaign. But if we did an isolated arc with some nightmare (like the toxic alliance stuff) that didn't really get huge? could be interesting.

This is pretty much how I imagined it.

There's a number of side stories in Tyria proper that haven't been wrapped up, but are also not full LW season sized stories. I could easily see, after LWS6, after Xpack 4, and after maybe a LS7? for the Xpack 4 region, Anet wraps up these smaller plots in a last LW season.

The Ghosts of Ascalon, making peace with the centaurs, Malyck and the Nightmare Court, taking down the Inquest, could all be done in Icebrood Saga style two parters like Bjora/Drizzlewood were. The Malyck plot would be a good place to do the Nightmare court in a way that makes sense, but isn't unrealistically large for their position.

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14 hours ago, Kalavier.1097 said:

TBH I think the nightmare court shouldn't come back, or if they do it HAS to be in a small scale manner. IMO, they survived because they are so focused on the pale tree (and literally driven subconsciously to spread nightmare) so they barely interacted with the other nations/groups, and thus never were a major threat.

If they came back as a major foe for an arc, I can't see the faction surviving any sort of military campaign. But if we did an isolated arc with some nightmare (like the toxic alliance stuff) that didn't really get huge? could be interesting.

A plot arc doesn't need to involve nations and major groups. Hearts of the North from GW1 is a good example, or Kiels' arcs in Season 1, smaller focus without major nation involvement. Could be a plot just focused on the sylvari alone, without the other nations' involvement.

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