Is it condi spam that's too good or boons that are useless?

[Shao.7236]

6 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

I agree that there is more sources of protection, there is also a lot more power damage going around.
Whatever the 3 seconds of protection does more then the 3 seconds of resolution really depends on the given situation?
Condition damage does not need to worry about crits, but we need to worry about cleanses. Power does not have to worry about ALL of their dmg being removed from one skill. Like you keep negating how big an impact condition cleanse is.
I can play 100% flawless, set up the best condition burst on a player and one click negates everything. If I did the same on a power build that player would be dead. 

 

I'm on repeat but surely you can understand I have no issue fighting condition damage, to me the issue stems from how largely stalled or even stale mated fights can be EVEN if I have the means to counter Soft-CCs or perfectly play because whether it's expected or not, many have such "large output" that they don't have to worry about using it in a correct manner like Hard-CC has to be.

 

Perhaps you haven't considered but there's several ways to instantly mitigate large amount of power damage, it doesn't get the exception.

 

6 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

5 condition is a lot, even 3 condition is a lot. And those 3 condition it remove now is also still AoE.  3 condition removed every 8 second can shut down pretty much any condition pressure when you combo it with evades, blocks ect.

 

Like wise Ventari would be Bunker if it was that good, it's not. You get 2 evades and the healing is superior, options are the same. What makes Vindicator any good is something else entirely and you'd be hoping Anet knew but they don't, that's why the nerfs are so broad and clueless.

 

7 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

I mean this is so rich, revenant have been meta since HoT. 

 

This is a funny statement but because it's meta for specifically +1 doesn't mean it's any good anywhere else. It's hardly the same since HoT and Herald has always been a lower floor to actual Revenant, but they're nerfing Core anyway. Other than being able to rotate quickly, it's nothing special and would be easily replaced by anything that can port around just as much on targets.

 

7 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Again this is just... Wrong. Like it's a false narrative.
When I play my condition damage ranger I have few key abilities I use to deliver my condition with and the rest of the fight is about trying to setup these key skills. It's not different then power. Like I rely on my hard CC and soft CC as much as the power build to deliver it. 
Your right that condition damage build over time, they are DoT after all. But they are still delivered by key skills. Take shortbow again; You have auto attack that does bleeding, you have #2 which is your dmg skill, #3 is a defensive skill, skill #4 is a soft CC and #5 is a hard CC. There is not "spitting out conditions" here. You try to land #4 or #5 to close up shotgun with #2.

 

I find condition damage very intuitive to both fight against and as, and I have played it since the game released. Core condition Engineer which I played the most out of everything being no different. 
As I said earlier; Condition damage is a much about setting up combos as power is. 

Stability is a much as an issue for condi as power, you need to land your hard CC aswell. Resistance while active negates soft CC completely (beside blind and weakness), soft CC can be easy removed by the abundance of condition cleanse that by far out number stun breaks and on top of that there is plenty of traits that reduce their duration or complelty negate specific ones like immobilize.
On top of that you can still take action while under soft CC and use abilities, which gives you room to do counter play. Far more options then hard CC. 

 

What's so false about the fact that Soft-CC naturally synergize better with conditions? The delivery doesn't matter, nobody says that conditions magically apply, the "real" narrative is the fact that Power relies on Hard-CC more than Soft-CC because of the derivative effect, it does everything that 5 key presses conditions would need at the cost of not covering them, but you're not covering conditions with that.

 

If most utility is instant, why bother right? It's not particularly difficult to go for an important skill after an evade. It obviously can help to Hard-CC for any kind of situation, but you're not getting the same value as you'd be using Soft-CC still.

 

Do I need to repeat that if people have reasons to invest into something else than clears it would be better for anyone? There's no reason to go for Resistance or Resolution because they suck compared clears, they're all at best the side effect of having other buff coming along them.

 

Do you really think that Mallyx would just randomly be immortal if Resolution was any better or that Resistance prevented soft-cc application? No, adding such effect has just as many consequences as there is benefits but at least there are different options to make up around with it rather than the old resistance completely removing damage. I'm using Mallyx as an example because it's dead content suffering from poor mechanic changes that nobody wants to acknowledge.

 

It's not intuitive that most buffs are useless and clearing is 90% random because 90% of the time nobody apply conditions in a specific order, in most cases Entangle gets people killed because it's just like Spear of Justice can because it pulses 2 dominant conditions that will be persistently removed over another that could be much more damaging, much of which Core Engineer relies on Box Of Nails to perform condi bursts.

 

8 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Power is also dominant cause its simply stronger and far easier to play. When I face a Willbender he can literally just ignore what I do and pressure me to the max. Cause he can manage any Soft CC with F3 and ignore conditions with F2 (being hyperbolic here). 
The damage you take from power is instant, you don't get a "ahh kitten I missplayed, guess I just press this button to fix my mistakes". You get that vs conditions. With most condition removal being instant you don't even have to stop up, you can keep applying your pressure and just remove what gets tossed back at you.

And yes conditions can kill you, you know what also always can kill you and you can't take a counter for? Power. Like what is it with people and being to annoyed about they can actually can die to Dots?
You don't get hit by conditions randomly, they don't just spawn out of no where. Just like power skill you. have. to. land. your. skills

 

No be linear here, don't need complex examples. Take Ranger Longbow Vs Shortbow with AA only, see who dies first. Unlucky? Condition wins. Lucky to hit most crits? Power wins. Don't have precision? Condi wins, Don't have ferocity? Condi likely wins. Having guaranteed damage is why it's DoT, clears should exist and are not overpowered in the slightest, saying that Power is easier to play contradicts your statement about having to setup hence why it makes no sense to compare them that way, there are just as many things to watch out for it if not more because damage is also based on chance.

 

Like said before Damage is not magically applied in any ways that can be played. If you had the means to Weakness that Willbender he'd do nothing to you, that's why pressuring him with your damage first is key to waste the clears, following afterward with Soft-CC is a guaranteed win because of merely re-pressuring it afterwards they'll have nothing. You ever tried Frost Trap? It's good to bait people in, definitely better than Spike Trap which leads back to the idea that hard-CC is a loss if playing conditions unless it has a great synergy that compliment conditions, mostly because why use something that has no AoE for your Shortbow? You have 3 different 100% projectile finishers that can hurt further into it.

 

8 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

What are you even on about here with stability? Stability is not a power counter. It's a counter vs hard CC which apply to any hard CC.
And why is there no weakness for condition damage? I don't know, why is there no condition cleanse for power? Why can't I just you know press a button to complete negate the last 2 seconds of power damage I should have taken?
Power is already by far the more dominant damage type, even with weakness in the game.
Heck condition damage suffers far more in meta where there is plenty of support, because they can both negate our damage with cleanse AND recover the damage dealt with healing. Where they only get to heal damage done by power.

 

Already went on about this. Hard-CC can be played but is wasteful when playing conditions, pressure is continuous after application. DoT is guaranteed, Direct is chance based. There's a greater deal buffs/debuffs exist for Power while Condition has less in the same way that could make people want to use other than just clears, Soft-CC is exempt of having similar counters, even Poison is completely ignored since the re-work.

 

By the way I did say Fury could use a multiplier to make conditions last longer rather than being exclusive to Power.

 

The way I'm approaching this isn't about balancing pros vs cons in numbers, especially because in practice even if one style has more downs doesn't mean it's benefit aren't greater still. Weakness alone completely makes a Power user useless, much of the rest is obvious, should you still disagree that having the means to prevent application because of negligence, I don't know what else to tell you, because Condition is DoT doesn't mean they shouldn't be wary of anything they have to setup, not saying they already don't but there's similar less incentive to. You don't see people rely on Soft-CC much as Power but some do therefor the criticism still applies at the benefit of Power, not just conditions.

 

If Resolution was changed to be any better or Resistance to be more protective against Soft-CC what would happen? Hardly anything in the balance of things, in most cases you'd have to give up on clears to get more of either and that's where the game ends up more healthy.

 

8 hours ago, Amadeus.5687 said:

Also just to finish this; Shadow Shot is an example of the core design of Thief and initiative. They get to spam the same skill over cause they don't have CD's. That's a specific design issue on Thief, not a general argument that be used for blinds in the game.
Also you know that you can remove blind... by just doing a auto attack right?


I start to feel like this entire topic is just you that have Issue with some specific elements cause of how they impact your preferred profession and try to make it a general problem. Which it ain't.

I don't disagree with you that buffing stuff instead of always nerfing stuff can be the better options. But there is plenty of tools counters to condition already in the game.

 

No the situation is that long lasting blinds are often used to carry because it's quite easy to nullify all large attacks as they are predictable, 3 seconds is already a lot to go on about and is a risky take to wait out, 5 seconds is just asking to die if waiting it out. You could auto attack and just get blinded again if that does it with you. You ask any Warrior main and they'd tell you why Blind is problematic when durations are too high for a super telegraphed profession.

 

If blinds were shorter there would be actual counter play to wait them out and time attacks rightfully so against the offender, much of the same for the opposite party to reblind if they have to, putting incentive in not randomly blinding because the first is wasteful.

 

For the way I play Revenant it's irrelevant, I just think it's still a problem overall and why Thief is only seen using D/P. Why using anything else when the initiative is cheaper and the effects are better?