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Harbinger is more braindead than WB..


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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, Crozame.4098 said:

Wonder why WB got more attention than Harbinger here. Its clearly more braindead than WB, with the sustain, mobility, dmg output and the quickness uptime..

all of the things you mentioned are actually fine. Well the quickness is kind of over the top....

The main problem with Harbinger is, that it applys ALL the nondamaging conditions (cripple,slow,chill,vuln) ontop of ALL the damaging conditions with the sole purpose of making it borderline impossible to cleanse. Its just bad design. They should clear the Conditions a tiny bit so you have more chances of actually cleansing the burst, instead of just cleansing the 4 covercondis.

The Damage itself is fine, and so is the rest. Only thing that is annoying is, that it has very little counterplay when it comes to acutally cleansing.

 

Edited by Sahne.6950
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14 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

all of the things you mentioned are actually fine. Well the quickness is kind of over the top....

The main problem with Harbinger is, that it applys ALL the nondamaging conditions (cripple,slow,chill,vuln) ontop of ALL the damaging conditions with the sole purpose of making it borderline impossible to cleanse. Its just bad design. They should clear the Conditions a tiny bit so you have more chances of actually cleansing the burst, instead of just cleansing the 4 covercondis.

The Damage itself is fine, and so is the rest. Only thing that is annoying is, that it has very little counterplay when it comes to acutally cleansing.

 

Each individual of them is fine, but combined together? You get all the kittening conditions in the game almost instantly, and follow up conditions, and the quickness spam. condition dmg is also dmg.

Also, you get all the boons on cast of the elite, thats also a joke.

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1 hour ago, Sahne.6950 said:

all of the things you mentioned are actually fine. Well the quickness is kind of over the top....

The main problem with Harbinger is, that it applys ALL the nondamaging conditions (cripple,slow,chill,vuln) ontop of ALL the damaging conditions with the sole purpose of making it borderline impossible to cleanse. Its just bad design. They should clear the Conditions a tiny bit so you have more chances of actually cleansing the burst, instead of just cleansing the 4 covercondis.

The Damage itself is fine, and so is the rest. Only thing that is annoying is, that it has very little counterplay when it comes to acutally cleansing.

 

This isn't harbinger but any necro build running the curses traitline. It has been critisized over and over again since the game exists, because each necro spec had a problematic build in the history of the game due to unique condi application.

Harbinger currently has an insane amount of hybrid damage while necro traditionally is designed around lots of different condis (application an corruption) but only few stacks of damaging conditions. When reaper applied 3 bleeds on each chill and scourge a ton of torment and burn, curses was equally problematic.

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Just now, KrHome.1920 said:

This isn't harbinger but any necro build running the curses traitline. It has been critisized over and over again since the game exists, because each necro spec had a problematic build in the history of the game due to unique condi application.

Harbinger currently has an insane amount of hybrid damage while necro traditionally is designed around lots of different condis (application an corruption) but only few stacks of damaging conditions. When reaper applied 3 bleeds on each chill and scourge a ton of torment and burn, curses was equally problematic.

agreed. But it is way more obvious with Harbinger, as it requires you to cleanse in 3 seconds or your toast.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Sahne.6950 said:

agreed. But it is way more obvious with Harbinger, as it requires you to cleanse in 3 seconds or your toast.

ANet went the wrong way when the nerfed mobility but increased the damage. To synergize in a balanced amount with the general necro mechanics the harbinger spec shoud hit like a wet noodle but apply a ton of hard and soft cc and debuffs while being very mobile to be able to sustain counterbursts. Now it's a debuff/damage/overwhelm god that scales extremely well as a duo with a support build.

Edited by KrHome.1920
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Posted (edited)

I think it's actually Harb's ability to get max value from the Death Magic trait line that is the real problem. Shrouded Removal (plus spectral walk, usually) gives them a ton of cleansing making them very resilient vs condi. And their incredible condi output makes it easy for them to get the 25 carapace needed to get pulsing protection from Corrupters fervor (in addition to the added toughness from the carapace itself). So if they're running Carrion amulet, they have 30k HP...with high protection up time and loads of cleansing.

 

Harbinger is supposed to be a glass cannon, but there is nothing glassy about it when it's able to max out Death Magic to this degree.

 

To be sure, I think it's offense could stand to be tuned down, too, but it would be less of an issue if Harb could be more easily bursted down.

Edited by CalmTheStorm.2364
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1 hour ago, CalmTheStorm.2364 said:

I think it's actually Harb's ability to get max value from the Death Magic trait line that is the real problem. Shrouded Removal (plus spectral walk, usually) gives them a ton of cleansing making them very resilient vs condi. And their incredible condi output makes it easy for them to get the 25 carapace needed to get pulsing protection from Corrupters fervor (in addition to the added toughness from the carapace itself). So if they're running Carrion amulet, they have 30k HP...with high protection up time and loads of cleansing.

 

Harbinger is supposed to be a glass cannon, but there is nothing glassy about it when it's able to max out Death Magic to this degree.

 

To be sure, I think it's offense could stand to be tuned down, too, but it would be less of an issue if Harb could be more easily bursted down.

This.

 

But tbh I'm not happy with nerfing core trait lines. It leads to a lot of unintended side effects. Problem is that harb's sustain is almost entirely predicated on death magic.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

Harbinger still has the problem of absolutely crushing low skilled players while lagging towards the bottom of EOD specs in high end pvp. Much of its viability comes from hugging support as is tradition with necromancer.

Willbender has the same problem tbh. Absolutely obliterates low skilled players. I think that's just a inherent problem with all high burst dps classes in pvp. They hard counter bunkers which makes for more enjoyable fast paced gameplay for the viewer, but is a frustrating experience for those fighting against it in a non competitive environment.

Edited by Kuya.6495
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Posted (edited)

Anybody who thinks Harbinger is "fine" is rather deluded. No class with light armor first of all should be able to tank that much damage, regardless of the trait lines being picked.

I wont even bother with what it can do offensively because its its pretty self explanatory but suffice it to say both Willbender and Harbinger need nerfs with Harbinger being just a little less broken then Willbender.

Edited by Poledra Val.1490
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1 hour ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

Anybody who thinks Harbinger is "fine" is rather deluded. No class with light armor first of all should be able to tank that much damage, regardless of the trait lines being picked.

I wont even bother with what it can do offensively because its its pretty self explanatory but suffice it to say both Willbender and Harbinger need nerfs with Harbinger being just a little less broken then Willbender.

OR how about we buff the rest to make the game faster and more interesting. Buff their counter idk. Warriors of this forum aid me! To my side!

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Imo harbringer issues come down to a few things:

 

- Quickness (which is...fine, ish, I guess)

- Tells on high impact skills

- Terrible UI decisions

 

Fixing the quickness issue would probably require reworking too much for anet to consider it worth it. Personally, I'd rather quickness-granting traits impact 5 people and NOT grant the boon to the caster, but that's require refenangling balance and how boons are granted in group scenarios since the two quickness supports in a raid will be in different sub groups.

 

So - tells on high impact skills. In part due to quickness, the casts of shroud5 and sometimes the elite elixir are quite fast. They also have, insofar as I'm aware, a visual tell (or lack thereof) totally disproportionate to their impact. Core necro's shroud3 was given a big 'ol floaty thing over the caster and a delay - why does harbringer shroud 5 have such a bad tell? Why does the elite elixir have such a bad tell - why can't it flashily sail upwards, then come down so that people don't get slammed with every condi in the game plus a half-decent chunk of power damage (depending on blight stacks)?

 

And, if I recall correctly, shroud LF still covers their health bar. Ofc you can click on them and look up, but it's still a pain. 

 

Would be really curious to see anet's reasoning on this - on why shroud5 seems to have a minimal tell, is a pulsing CC (instead of like, immob + fear or something to be in-line with necro's theme and to work with other traits), and why in the heck the elite elixir has effectively zero tell (am I missing something here? If thrown at your feet it looks like it has zero tell, and even at range it's like a tiny lil speck that has a brief green explosion when landing, iirc).

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1 hour ago, Bale.3851 said:

OR how about we buff the rest to make the game faster and more interesting. Buff their counter idk. Warriors of this forum aid me! To my side!

If ANet will give me a trait line that cleanses a condi every 3s, gives bonus toughness, and pulsing protection, I'll be there for ya, my dude!

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8 hours ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

Anybody who thinks Harbinger is "fine" is rather deluded. No class with light armor first of all should be able to tank that much damage, regardless of the trait lines being picked.

I wont even bother with what it can do offensively because its its pretty self explanatory but suffice it to say both Willbender and Harbinger need nerfs with Harbinger being just a little less broken then Willbender.

Work your way up to some plat 3 games and oh boy will your perception change.

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The problem with harbour ain't it's defense as with the toughness it adds to the value of having a ds helf bar. It's the value it gets out of traits that's the issue. But I also don't want the nurfs as anet don't nurf builds they delete builds

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2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Lol, become one of those 50 players and its fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.

Yeah, when I started out guild wars 2 pvp I was in the same boat of looking at certain builds and thinking "wow this is severely overpowered, I don't know why arenanet even allows this". Nowadays since I've became a lot better and learned how to properly play I see people going through the same issues with builds that are of no concern once you know what you're doing and worse yet knowing there is far worse they haven't seen yet because they're gated away from the players that have the skill to utilize the builds that are far more powerful than what they're complaining about.

 

The patch comes, the majority of the players are perplexed that the thing they're complaining about isn't touched while some other obscure thing is. Meanwhile, those 50 players are relieved that the actual problem was taken care of. At the end, what is a problem in competitive play can be dealt with far more easily than addressing the lack of desire for self-reflection and self-improvement among the masses. 

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6 minutes ago, Metaologist.2487 said:

At the end, what is a problem in competitive play can be dealt with far more easily than addressing the lack of desire for self-reflection and self-improvement among the masses. 

Enjoy playing with those 50 players, when they are online.

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2 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Enjoy playing with those 50 players, when they are online.

 

Dunno mate im playing for fun from gold 3 to plat 2 with untamed, harbinger and specter mainly. Sometimes Bladesworn. But i personally see quite different builds. I mean its just my personal experience and i dont have any data backing up the whole match making (is there a site to provide data?).

 

Im just curious if you really run into 4 harbinger and 6 wb per match or is this a hyperbole. I get that they are very strong compared to the lacking meta but everytime im reading a thread it sounds like the whole playerbase is 50% guard 30% necro and the 20% of the rest.

 

Personally i also kill harbinger quite easily with my untamed. Maybe cause i know their kit but i dont get this hate when there is clearly a counter and room for improvement. Could be cause Anet keeps nerfing things that arent broken or idk. All i wanna say is maybe some buffs to counter classes who got the end of the stick will help with build diversity but there is always room for personal improvment and better teamplay.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Bale.3851 said:

Im just curious if you really run into 4 harbinger and 6 wb per match or is this a hyperbole. I get that they are very strong compared to the lacking meta but everytime im reading a thread it sounds like the whole playerbase is 50% guard 30% necro and the 20% of the rest.

I've not played ranked since eod drop and how vindicator was released. In my unranked games (I do about 1 a day) I usually see a harbringer and a willbender, sometimes one on each team.

For wvw cele harbringer is just kitten, I've stopped roaming due to it.

I don't really care about harbringer in spvp, its whatever (IMO after fixing the spam-jump-for-dmg its fine). The topic is about it being braindead, to which I agree. But telling someone "well get to p3" (essentially be either very gifted at the game, or spend a thousand hours in the mode) is just hilarious to me.

Edited by Hotride.2187
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4 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I don't really care about harbringer in spvp, its whatever (IMO after fixing the spam-jump-for-dmg its fine). The topic is about it being braindead, to which I agree. But telling someone "well get to p3" (essentially be either very gifted at the game, or spend a thousand hours in the mode) is just hilarious to me.

Isnt that a little bit to simple? I mean GW2 isnt rocket science. Most dps rotations are 3-5 buttons sometimes less. Skill in spvp is about how you position, rotate, teamplay and use your cds to counter your opponent. In this regard there are either a bunch of braindead speccs or none. So can you easily do dmg as a harbinger? Sure. Can you kitten up when positioned wrong? Also true. I guess its all about your definition of skill and your expectation of the game.

 

9 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

For wvw cele harbringer is just kitten, I've stopped roaming due to it.

In roaming thats true. Only Deadeye and WB is more toxic. But thats mostly because of cele gear. Harbinger on cele is nearly immortal 1v1.

 

11 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

I've not played ranked since eod drop and how vindicator was released. In my unranked games (I do about 1 a day) I usually see a harbringer and a willbender, sometimes one on each team.

Harbinger and WB are undoubtly 2 very strong classes right now. But if the meta is flodded with them i dont know. If you meet 1 of them every game thats still 8 other speccs. I also just saw 1 of them per team on MAT. But thats also hardly a valid argument. Lastly anet has the data and they will act accordingly (im not so sure about that but i keep lying to myself).

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