I'm fine with every OP spec, but I never enjoy playing against Deadeye

[Aodlop.1907]

Because I'm not playing against it. There's no fight.

The Deadeye will appear, attack one or twice from max range, then vanish into nothingness. Repeat, until I die. 

If I don't delete the Deadeye instantly when and if I do catch him, then he'll vanish again and reset.

 

It's not about damage or balance, it's just about the core design philosophy around this spec that will always make it awful to play against.

[FarmBotXD.1430]

you know a spec is kitten design where one of its skills is a counter to a counter.
who thought stealth that removes revealed is a good idea lol

[Terrorhuz.4695]

4 minutes ago, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

you know a spec is kitten design where one of its skills is a counter to a counter.
who thought stealth that removes revealed is a good idea lol

It's necessary in PvE, since your main source of damage is DJ spammed over and over and over.
As toxic as it may be -and it is- it's a mechanical necessity for DE to exist outside PvP. I'd change some other things

1) Mercy has 0 reason to be a stunbreak. 0 reason.
2) Deadeye is meant to be a slow moving spec. For this reason DE was given... the best movement skills in the game, with rifle4? This thing needs a fat nuke.
3) The big damage is on skirmisher shot, which is a skill with low cast time, no aftercast, low ini cost, 1200 range, projectile moves super fast and it doesn't require kneeling. It's literally a "now you die" button with no risk nor preparation, you just press stuff and force people to waste way too many things to get out of range; in which case you can just malicious backstab or DJ.
4) Malicious backstab has enough power damage to oneshot people with 0 tell; would be acceptable from a class with low access to stealth, but a DE can perma stealth. You can't just "see it coming".
5) Kneeling is also quite strong, even though people usually see no reason to do it; with the smoke screen on rifle they are protected against projectiles (so about half of ranged damage doesn't work), which can also combo with skirmisher shot to blind people from range to further prevent any kind of counterattack. Whenever you reach the range of the DE, they can just rifle leap on their smoke field and they're gone
6) Shadow rejuvenation needs to go, and the 3 condies cleansed on shadowstep return need to go.

Everything else is questionable stuff which -as bad as it may be on PvP- has a reason to be due to PvE.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

De and ranger with there 1200-1500 pew pews just make the game unfair sometimes.

[Zekent.3652]

You know it's something unhealthy for the game when the answers to counter it are; "just predict"

The stealth spam is unfun, unhealthy for the game, uninteractive, way too passive and the only person thinking it's ""interactive"", is the stealth spammer.

 

[Curennos.9307]

47 minutes ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

It's necessary in PvE, since your main source of damage is DJ spammed over and over and over.
As toxic as it may be -and it is- it's a mechanical necessity for DE to exist outside PvP. I'd change some other things

1) Mercy has 0 reason to be a stunbreak. 0 reason.
2) Deadeye is meant to be a slow moving spec. For this reason DE was given... the best movement skills in the game, with rifle4? This thing needs a fat nuke.
3) The big damage is on skirmisher shot, which is a skill with low cast time, no aftercast, low ini cost, 1200 range, projectile moves super fast and it doesn't require kneeling. It's literally a "now you die" button with no risk nor preparation, you just press stuff and force people to waste way too many things to get out of range; in which case you can just malicious backstab or DJ.
4) Malicious backstab has enough power damage to oneshot people with 0 tell; would be acceptable from a class with low access to stealth, but a DE can perma stealth. You can't just "see it coming".
5) Kneeling is also quite strong, even though people usually see no reason to do it; with the smoke screen on rifle they are protected against projectiles (so about half of ranged damage doesn't work), which can also combo with skirmisher shot to blind people from range to further prevent any kind of counterattack. Whenever you reach the range of the DE, they can just rifle leap on their smoke field and they're gone
6) Shadow rejuvenation needs to go, and the 3 condies cleansed on shadowstep return need to go.

Everything else is questionable stuff which -as bad as it may be on PvP- has a reason to be due to PvE.

The raid build, at least, takes premediation and is fine. Not sure how well it works in open world PvE They could easily just make it so dodge rolling gives access to DJ without stealth.

[Hotride.2187]

16 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

You know it's something unhealthy for the game when the answers to counter it are; "just predict"

Well personally I enjoy the prediction part, trying to guess where the deadeye will appear from.

[Luna.6203]

11 minutes ago, Hotride.2187 said:

Well personally I enjoy the prediction part, trying to guess where the deadeye will appear from.

 

That he just disappear again.

[Bazsi.2734]

 

  

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

It's necessary in PvE, since your main source of damage is DJ spammed over and over and over.
As toxic as it may be -and it is- it's a mechanical necessity for DE to exist outside PvP. I'd change some other things

Man you really hate DE. 😄
 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

1) Mercy has 0 reason to be a stunbreak. 0 reason.

Every support skill type has at least one stunbreak. Which other cantrip would you make into the stunbreak? Or deadeye just doesn't get to have one because memes? 

 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

2) Deadeye is meant to be a slow moving spec. For this reason DE was given... the best movement skills in the game, with rifle4? This thing needs a fat nuke.

6 initiative for a clunky 600 range teleport, that gets defeated by a random blade of grass in an open plane(if you aimed at an invisible hitbox of something, you'll get stuck on it)... what would the nuked version look like?
Also deadeye was never meant to be slow. It was meant to be switching between kneeling+damage and standing+mobility modes. Someone who I'm sure is really smart decided to nerf kneeling so now it's not worth using it. They literally nerfed the tradeoff out of rifle. 

 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

3) The big damage is on skirmisher shot, which is a skill with low cast time, no aftercast, low ini cost, 1200 range, projectile moves super fast and it doesn't require kneeling. It's literally a "now you die" button with no risk nor preparation, you just press stuff and force people to waste way too many things to get out of range; in which case you can just malicious backstab or DJ.

This is what I mean by nerfing the tradeoff out of rifle... skirmisher's shot was almost left untouched, and every other offensive skill on rifle is overnerfed... so now just spamming 2-2-2-2 is the most optimal thing to do.
On one side I hate it,  if you were to implement a sniper to your game, at least give it some depth... on the other hand beating people spamming 1 button and watching them rage is just the best thursday afternoon I could ask for sometimes. 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

4) Malicious backstab has enough power damage to oneshot people with 0 tell; would be acceptable from a class with low access to stealth, but a DE can perma stealth. You can't just "see it coming".

Malicious attacks scale with malice. Most of them are useless because they scale other stuff(mainhand sword lol), Malcious Backstab can only scale its damage. What would you change about this?

 

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

5) Kneeling is also quite strong, even though people usually see no reason to do it; with the smoke screen on rifle they are protected against projectiles (so about half of ranged damage doesn't work), which can also combo with skirmisher shot to blind people from range to further prevent any kind of counterattack. Whenever you reach the range of the DE, they can just rifle leap on their smoke field and they're gone

This seems like description of actual gameplay we should promote over the braindead 2-2-2-2 spam though... how is this a problem? If this is how DE-s fought this would be an improvement. Actual counterplays, comboing skills... whats wrong with this?

1 hour ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

6) Shadow rejuvenation needs to go, and the 3 condies cleansed on shadowstep return need to go.

Everything else is questionable stuff which -as bad as it may be on PvP- has a reason to be due to PvE.

These aren't even deadeye things though. And I don't think core thief would need to take these hits. Not to mention Shadow Rejuvenation is like... alacrity for chrono. If you remove it from the traitline, then what's the point/the flavor of the traitline anymore? 
Mesmer has the same in the form of PU. You give up your ability to contest any node ever, you even give up a grandmaster to enchance your stealth... shouldn't you actually get something useful in return?

If you really want to nerf something, go play a few dozen matches with it. You'll get better ideas on what to tweak on them.

[Bazsi.2734]

2 hours ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

You know it's something unhealthy for the game when the answers to counter it are; "just predict"

The stealth spam is unfun, unhealthy for the game, uninteractive, way too passive and the only person thinking it's ""interactive"", is the stealth spammer.

 

"Just predict" goes for the entire game though. On every level.

One example, at the start when deciding who to send close, if the enemy has a fast bruiser that can push, sending your daredevil thief for close is a waste. But will they push though? Who knows, all you can do to counter is "just predict". Are rotations unhealth and toxic now?
You can have the same mindgame when you spot a necro on the enemy team, is he power or condi? Should you swap that utility or not? You can't have both, you have to "just predict". Etc... the match haven't even staredt and we're already guessing, anticipating, predicting things.
 

Edited May 16, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[ASP.8093]

You're talking about the worst thief spec in SPvP. Like, you will literally see more P/D Core Thieves than Deadeyes.

• Least mobile thief spec.

• Lacks inherent free survivability buffs that you get for playing Specter or Daredevil.

• Stealth-focused but SPvP has a longer Revealed duration.

 

Most of the stuff that makes Deadeye powerful in WvW — big maps, slow timers, dodge food, Sigil of Cleansing, Sigil of Celerity, Warclaw — is unavailable in SPvP.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

The problem is something many have pointed out many times - Stealth in GW2 is not well designed because it has no soft counter. You either have the hard counter to stealth ( Revealed ) or you have no counter. There is no counter play against the stealth mechanic, only counter building. And build wars is not good game design.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

This meta could be described as "Anti-projectile reveal spam teleport gap closing burst madness"

If you guys can't handle DEs in today's meta, you're doing something very very wrong.

Let's take a look at this:

1. DH - reveals & pulls into 1shot trap stack - or land 1x true shot on DE and you win
2. Guard Support - bubbles bubbles bubbles bubbles bubbles aegis aegis aegis aegis aegis
3. Willbender - teleporting burst god - hit the DE once with sword offhand and you win
4. Bladesworn - infinitely cycles reveals - kill a DE easily by spamming only artillery slash and cyclone trigger - or alternatively land a single dragon trigger burst and kill the DE
5. Herald - teleporting burst god with reveal and massive AoE CC that requires no target to hit
6. Mechanist - stand behind your Mech and use it to LOS - eon't even need to push skills to do this and the DE can't kill you
7. Holosmith - get a hold of the DE once and automatically win
8. Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast/Untame - if you died to any Thief spec while running any Ranger spec, you're doing something very wrong or you're just plainly getting out-skilled by the Thief
9. Thief/Daredevil/Specter - If you can't figure out how to teleport at the DE to kill, then just teleport away from the DE so it can't kill you.
10. Harbinger - necros no longer have room to complain about ranged attacks - use your ranged attacks - learn to LOS like everyone else
11. Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage/Virtuoso - gfg man block block block projectile reflect reflect reflect invuln invuln invuln evade evade evade - you can kill a DE by LOSing and letting your clones auto attack it - you don't even need to actually know what you're doing to kill a DE as a Mesmer
12. Ele/Temp/Weav/CATA - dudes, the projectile nullification on modern Ele specs is very seriously upwards of 90% especially on Cata - if you cannot figure out how to at least survive and not die vs. DE, you're doing something very wrong

I mean what the hell boys? What is your technique when you see a DE? Do you AFK or something? ^^

Sorry, I just don't see how anyone is possibly having enough legit problems with DE that it would warrant a complaint thread.

[Kuya.6495]

People are misunderstanding (perhaps on purpose?) what the OP is saying. He's not saying deadeye is overpowered. He's saying that he finds deadeye the most annoying and frustrating thing to fight in pvp. This is the same reason people hated fighting DH with trap runes even after dh stopped being meta. 

[Zekent.3652]

6 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

People are misunderstanding (perhaps on purpose?) what the OP is saying. He's not saying deadeye is overpowered. He's saying that he finds deadeye the most annoying and frustrating thing to fight in pvp. This is the same reason people hated fighting DH with trap runes even after dh stopped being meta. 

This and only this, it's very delusional thinking that people is complaining "because it's "broken" at this point.

[Khalisto.5780]

They're not fun to play against but the good ones are also very rare, at least in NA. 

[Gundam Style.8495]

40 minutes ago, Zizekent.2398 said:

This and only this, it's very delusional thinking that people is complaining "because it's "broken" at this point.

They should really stop crying about everything they don't like if it is not OP then. Really just confuses the devs and boils the game down to stick fights.

[felix.2386]

daredevil/dead eye, both toxic specs for the game.

like daredevil is, if your build can pressure it, you will pressure it, if your build can't, all you can do is kneel and pray god.

and it's not like there's strategy or even tells, because all it does are the same thing just over and over.

shortbow pew pew, shortbow 2, when ever enemy get a tiny bit close, dash away, keep shortbow 2ing.

then steal stealth backstab combo that is basically unable to react to, then spam heartseeker, dagger pressure, or maybe spam stealth and back to SB again and repeat..like it's simple gameplay it's bullcrap.

Edited May 17, 2022 by felix.2386

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Man every thing has its own nemesis, nemesis for deadeye is tempest with magnetic aura durations/spam. And what counters tempest is necro for example as it can remove its boons and put endless chill 😄 then somehow deadeye counters necro....guess what this is team game not 1v1 and if you are harassed by deadeye kiss dem wall and you will be fine, you can't kill it fine...it can't kill you...fine 🙂 Play around your objective, leave fights you can't win and try to not die...

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

So again...if you are having traumatic experiences with deadeye, swap to tempest and clap it down.

[greedywholesome.9081]

2 hours ago, Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

So again...if you are having traumatic experiences with deadeye, swap to tempest and clap it down.

 

Oh wow it's Svez, a permanent fixture at the FFA arena in EU (at least before EoD launch but havent seen him since). Interesting Mesmer avatar because you're deadly AF on your Tempest. One of the best tempests in EU, Svez. Currently learning tempest but play still play weaver in PvP and staff cata in WvW. 

 

Numerous times I've seen 2-3 ppl jump him at the FFA and survive but when he does die, all 5 of them get all giddy and jump on his body like 3yr olds. NVM, 3yr olds more mature. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by greedywholesome.9081

[myun.6395]

In spvp you find very few decent deadeyes, and also right now there is a lot of projectile mitigation that almost everyclass can reflect or block projectiles.

It all depends who is in your team, yesterday happened to have a deadeye against, a pretty decent one using no port spots to snipe in safety, I was on shiro herald and asked a willbender teammate to group with me to chase down the deadeye everytime he appeared.

No port spots are insane, but also can get you killed pretty easily, he wasn't able to port either and we could oneshot him in stealth sever times and move on, he was pretty much useless in that game, also one guy rerolled tempest on purpose.

 

It is unfun to play against that's true, and if your team is pve or silver like happens very often lately, deadeye will carry games so easily because will freecast without caring, same thing that happens with fa eles, but an hard focus makes them a 4v5.

 

The only broken thing it's the not interruptable stealth on dodge and the elite should be something else to have counterplay, but yeah, not many DEs around, so whatever.

 

They are much of a problem in wvw roaming.

Edited May 17, 2022 by myun.6395

[Hotride.2187]

6 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

This meta could be described as "Anti-projectile reveal spam teleport gap closing burst madness"

Not everyone plays meta though.

DE objectively is one of the most BS types of gameplays you can fight 1v1. Irrelevant for conquest, yes, but go in wvw and try to get a DE dedicated to harass you off your back. Its burst down or pulse reveal or go home. If your build has none of that, go hide in an objective / los for 10 years (until the DE decides to do something else) / switch border (and hope the DE didn't add you and doesn't follow).

Sure its not OP, DE is IMO pretty balanced even with the stealth spam and remove reveal... But it can still feel like a ton of BS to fight. Which is also the point of the topic, that they'd rather fight an OP build than DE.

[Avatar.3568]

The Game is Close to 10 years Out and people still can't See when a Skill is comming Out of invisibilty.

There are visual and audio tells that Something is Happening, especially deadeyes Mark their target, BE PREPARED TO DODGE GUYS.

Btw you can even See shadowsteps when the Thief is stealthed

7 hours ago, ASP.8093 said:

You're talking about the worst thief spec in SPvP. 

No

 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

6 hours ago, Gundam Style.8495 said:

They should really stop crying about everything they don't like if it is not OP then. Really just confuses the devs and boils the game down to stick fights.

No one crying here though, OP just stated that DE is toxic to play against. He just wrote a fact and nothing beyond that.