I'm fine with every OP spec, but I never enjoy playing against Deadeye

[Aodlop.1907]

4 hours ago, Avatar.3568 said:

The Game is Close to 10 years Out and people still can't See when a Skill is comming Out of invisibilty.

 

You don't get it. The issue isn't getting hit or killed by Deadeye, it's that you can't fight against it.

Once they appear and you run toward them, either they gain the upper hand and kill you (as any other class would, that's fine) or they just run away, stealth for ages, and come back once they're full HP again. Rince & repeat: they may fail to kill you 9 times, get absolutely rekt, but they'll die 0 time and you will, eventually.

If they can't get you in 1v1, they'll join a team fight and destroy someone who's in a middle of a fight from the other side of the map and 0 counterplay.

Who enjoys that?

 

No, for real, do YOU enjoy fighting against a team with a Deadeye in it?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

12 hours ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

 

1. Mesmer/Chrono/Mirage/Virtuoso - gfg man block block block projectile reflect reflect reflect invuln invuln invuln evade evade evade - you can kill a DE by LOSing and letting your clones auto attack it - you don't even need to actually know what you're doing to kill a DE as a Mesmer

Teach me how to block block block reflect reflect reflect reflex invuln invuln invuln evade evade evade please. 

And yeah let them clones attack, pretty sure DE will die when clones burst them for 20 damage. 

No saying DE needs to get nerfed or anything but your fighting tips everywhere are so BS it's amusing. 

[Gundam Style.8495]

5 hours ago, TrollingDemigod.3041 said:

No one crying here though, OP just stated that DE is toxic to play against. He just wrote a fact and nothing beyond that.

Thats literally crying, or complaining, or whining, whatver you want to call it. Doesnt appear to be concerned about balance, but it does seem to be inititating a balance mob.

 

What he wrote is not a "fact", it is an opinion. Just because you may agree with an opinion, it still doesn't strengthen its position into a "fact".

 

1 hour ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

You don't get it. The issue isn't getting hit or killed by Deadeye, it's that you can't fight against it.

Once they appear and you run toward them, either they gain the upper hand and kill you (as any other class would, that's fine) or they just run away, stealth for ages, and come back once they're full HP again. Rince & repeat: they may fail to kill you 9 times, get absolutely rekt, but they'll die 0 time and you will, eventually.

If they can't get you in 1v1, they'll join a team fight and destroy someone who's in a middle of a fight from the other side of the map and 0 counterplay.

Who enjoys that?

 

No, for real, do YOU enjoy fighting against a team with a Deadeye in it?

Fights don't last that long in SPvP. This sounds like you need practice at side nodding, or took a fight outside your role. If the DE is going stealth all the time, you should uave node control. Every point has Los, DJ has massive tells, and it can be avoided You don't need to waste dodges when you can hide behind a poll or block.

 

Stop taking duels or side noding against DE if you don't have the build or don't understand terrain defense.

[Avatar.3568]

1 hour ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

You don't get it. The issue isn't getting hit or killed by Deadeye, it's that you can't fight against it.

Once they appear and you run toward them, either they gain the upper hand and kill you (as any other class would, that's fine) or they just run away, stealth for ages, and come back once they're full HP again. Rince & repeat: they may fail to kill you 9 times, get absolutely rekt, but they'll die 0 time and you will, eventually.

If they can't get you in 1v1, they'll join a team fight and destroy someone who's in a middle of a fight from the other side of the map and 0 counterplay.

Who enjoys that?

 

No, for real, do YOU enjoy fighting against a team with a Deadeye in it?

Yes i enjoy it to Fight deadeyes, its an Fight where reaction counts and the better Player wins.

[Curennos.9307]

Fix Shadow Arts to be less stealth campy but more rewarding in other areas.

 

Remove stealth on dodge, fix the elite to not remove reveal. Fill in the gap as needed but stealth on dodge is atrocious. Part of the issue here is compounded by the elite which gives good stealth access combined with shadow arts, which adds a flat second to the 1 sec on dodge stealth duration. Won't be as much of an issue if SA is addressed.

 

Adjust rifle so  that rifle3 isn't nerfed so hard spamming 2 is just better. Possibly adjust the kneeling rifle 2, as such an easily accessible immob on such a long range weapon may be a smidge much.

 

I like DE as a spec and want it to have more players, but its current design is just unpleasant. It's a bigger issue in WvW, or so I've heard, so ideally any changes will help alleviate WvW pain while making it more useful in sPvP. I used to never see DEs in ranked, but with the decreasing relevance of DrD it seems to be making a resurgence. Adjusting the spec to not get hard countered so easily while decreasing the unpleasant lack of interactivity of the spec would go a long way, imo, to fixing both WvW and sPvP issues.

 

 

[JunkJunk.8971]

Lol. Deadeyes are an issue???  In ranked??   Cause I never see them.    

[semak.7481]

2 hours ago, Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Teach me how to block block block reflect reflect reflect reflex invuln invuln invuln evade evade evade please. 

And yeah let them clones attack, pretty sure DE will die when clones burst them for 20 damage. 

No saying DE needs to get nerfed or anything but your fighting tips everywhere are so BS it's amusing. 

He plays his own gw2 in his head, avoid him and his posts at all costs. 

I'd argue he is a prime example of Dunning-Kruger effect, his made up list and his posts says it all, especially his guide about turtle in ffa.

 

[Fueki.4753]

28 minutes ago, JunkJunk.8971 said:

Deadeyes are an issue?  In ranked? Cause I never see them.    

That one never sees them is the issue with Deadeyes and other Stealth humpers.

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Fueki.4753

[JunkJunk.8971]

I just blow them up with one dps rotation.  Play a Condi virtuoso.  Problems solved

[Terrorhuz.4695]

On 5/17/2022 at 12:05 AM, Bazsi.2734 said:

Every support skill type has at least one stunbreak. Which other cantrip would you make into the stunbreak? Or deadeye just doesn't get to have one because memes? 

IDK. 30s cd on a stunbreak with no cast time which also refreshes a kitten ton of initiative is way more than it should, that I can say for sure.

Quote

6 initiative for a clunky 600 range teleport, that gets defeated by a random blade of grass in an open plane(if you aimed at an invisible hitbox of something, you'll get stuck on it)... what would the nuked version look like?

Miss me with that bs. This can be said for any teleport in game, it doesn't make them "weak".

The nuked version would not have a leap finisher, would have a higher cast time or would deal 1 tick of damage after the leap, so if you use it to stealth at point blank range you get revealed.

Ideally, all 3 of those. And lose the condi cleanse too; it's a movement skill. That's what it should do. How many things do you think my blink does, buddy?

Quote

Malicious attacks scale with malice. Most of them are useless because they scale other stuff(mainhand sword lol), Malcious Backstab can only scale its damage. What would you change about this?

Just as JD, you get revealed as soon as you start casting it.
This thing scales OBSCENELY with malice, and having a oneshot button with 0 tell from a class which can stealth potentially forever with no investment is just wrong (you can also use signet of assassin for the equivalent of unremovable 18 stacks of might?!?!?)

Quote

This seems like description of actual gameplay we should promote over the braindead 2-2-2-2 spam though... how is this a problem?

Someone dropping memes from 1500 range, you can't retaliate because there's distance, but then there's also projectile block and then you're also permablinded from the combo field and then you're also permacrippled\permaimmob so you can't close the gap, and if you close the gap a DE can just dodge back into stealth with 0 counterplay -since we CAN'T interrupt a dodge-.

You think that's what we should promote, I think you need to use your brain for this one. DE must have killing potential (and that it does have), but it also have to get some way to get killed by people who ARE NOT heralds with bugged 900 range AoE reveal.

Quote

These aren't even deadeye things though. And I don't think core thief would need to take these hits. Not to mention Shadow Rejuvenation is like... alacrity for chrono. If you remove it from the traitline, then what's the point/the flavor of the traitline anymore?

Since you mention PU, let's take a moment to compare what happens with a stealthing mesmer vs a stealthing DE

THE STEALTHING DE VS THE STEALTHING MESMER
The gameplay on DE: use your opener (DJ). If it fails you're fine, you can follow up skirmisher shot because it basically costs no initiative and you're from range. If someone closes the gap, you can just use one of the (several) tools to get back in stealth; from there you can reposition (stealth on SA thieves will grant 50% movement speed, remember) aaaaaand you're back at the beginning. You failed your burst, but nothing is lost; you didn't waste anything really valuable anyway. kitten, you even got malice!

The gameplay on mesmer: use your opener (gs combo). Assuming GS2 didn't send itself on full cd without casting, this alone already removes 3 skills from your pool of cooldowns. Failing will put you in immediate danger; you're at melee range, you're revealed and you have already burned your 3 damaging cooldowns.
If you manage to get back into stealth, you have already burned quite a bit of cooldowns; repositioning isn't as easy (no increased movement speed from stealth) and you feel you can't really keep this up forever. To be precise, you have around 3 bursts to get the kill; if the target survives those 3 bursts, you run out of things to cast.

The options as a DE:
- If you get revealed, you can just shadow meld.
- If you get condi bombed, you can cleanse the bulk of condies with healing skill\shadowstep and wait out the rest (while shadow rejuvenation ticks).
- If the engagement drags on, you get even more advantage, as you build enough malice for the 12k (at least) malicious backstab. Stealthing is... not free, but as close to free as it can be.
- If you miss the DJ, you're still safely away at 1200 range spamming skirmisher shots. No immediate threat.
- If you're pressured, you can just sit in stealth for as long as you need, while rejuvenating shadows does the trick.

The options as a mesmer:
- If you get revealed, you have to live with it
- If you get condi bombed, you CAN'T cleanse. There is 1 cleanse on torch4, 30s cd, and that's literally it. Everything else goes directly to your HP bar.
- If the engagement drags on, you will lose by default; every time you stealth, your utility bar gets thinner, and those cooldowns are fairly long.
- If you miss the burst, you're on melee range with revealed and without offensive pressure for the 10s. You're very much kittened.
- If you're pressured you mostly have to live with that. Stealthing will not give resources for free.

It's not the same thing, not even close.
And you know it's not the same thing, because you play stealthing DE but you DON'T play stealthing mesmer.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Terrorhuz.4695

[Jumpel.3972]

21 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

IDK. 30s cd on a stunbreak with no cast time which also refreshes a kitten ton of initiative is way more than it should, that I can say for sure.

If you use Mercy as a stunbreak you mostly waste the skill.

 

21 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

The nuked version would not have a leap finisher, would have a higher cast time or would deal 1 tick of damage after the leap, so if you use it to stealth at point blank range you get revealed.

I wonder if you ever play deadeye rifle with this one...

 

21 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

This thing scales OBSCENELY with malice, and having a oneshot button with 0 tell from a class which can stealth potentially forever with no investment is just wrong

Yea the mark on your head, the 7 malice stack that the DE need to generate and then the need to go to stealth .... definitely 0 tell on what's going to happen...

 

21 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Someone dropping memes from 1500 range, you can't retaliate because there's distance, but then there's also projectile block and then you're also permablinded from the combo field and then you're also

I wonder how do you deal against LB Soulbeast and projectile in general 

Edited May 18, 2022 by Jumpel.3972

[Kuma.1503]

Deadeye falls into the zoner archetype. 

Which is possibly the most hated PvP archetype. They don't have to be OP to infuriate you. 

See:

Teemo - League of Legends

Simon/Richtor - Smash Bros

Peacock - Skullgirls

Dhalism - Street Fighter

 

All hated for similar reasons. 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Kuma.1503

[solemn.9608]

23 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Because I'm not playing against it. There's no fight.

The Deadeye will appear, attack one or twice from max range, then vanish into nothingness. Repeat, until I die. 

If I don't delete the Deadeye instantly when and if I do catch him, then he'll vanish again and reset.

 

It's not about damage or balance, it's just about the core design philosophy around this spec that will always make it awful to play against.

 

It's the same in WvW and idk how it's taken so long for anything meaningful to be done about it. Nerfing duration just makes it less fun to use and equally/no less frustrating to fight against bc it's inherently broken to begin with.

I think an ok solution might be to make stealth very difficult to see but not impossible. Think halo invisibility. That'd be much better..then it would actually be a fun and balanced mechanic. As it stands it's just annoying and op - don't even need to tank up if you can just mobilize away 6 times, stealth for however long you feel like, mobilize back...

Edit: and don't even get me started on dagger mainhand and rifle damage in wvw. A monkey could be good at roamer thief.

Edited May 17, 2022 by solemn.9608

[Bazsi.2734]

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

Since you mention PU, let's take a moment to compare what happens with a stealthing mesmer vs a stealthing DE

THE STEALTHING DE VS THE STEALTHING MESMER
The gameplay on DE: use your opener (DJ). If it fails you're fine, you can follow up skirmisher shot because it basically costs no initiative and you're from range

DJ is not an opener, it's a finisher. If you fail to dodge a DJ that's used as an opener, it's just like taking a normal autoattack from the rifle. If anything, that's how you bait dodges, to make sure the enemy has none left by the time you procced your M7 and ready to land a 10K+ finisher.
Also in the current meta 1200-ish range to spam skirmishers shot is not a safe distance. It just isn't. Heralds, Willbenders, Sic'em snipers, shatter mesmers with blink etc... if you get an enemy team that cannot delete you in a second from 1200 away, you've won the jackpot.
And by this I do not mean you cannot poke at the teamfight at 1200 range, you just have to be ready to dodge incoming bursts nonstop. There is a reason why most people do not play deadeye. They get blow up one too many times, they decide the spec is bad, and play something tankier instead, as with DE your defense is mostly your personal skill, especially if played without SA (which is the way I mostly meme it nowadays)

3 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

- Comparison of PU mesmer vs SA thief that I cut out - 

It's not the same thing, not even close, because you play stealthing DE but you DON'T play stealthing mesmer.

In general your analysis seems to miss this big difference between power shatter mesmer and DE: power mesmer intends to down the enemy with the opener (or at least force it on the defensive, by leaving it at very low health), while DE ramps up to a burst.
DE has to stick around for a while before bursting an enemy, a mesmer can straight up open with the burst.
PU condi virtuoso is a really nice example of this. Your main burst is ONE BUTTON, and if stealthed, the animation is only visible to your target as the projectiles are about to impact. Meanwhile DJ reveals at the start of the cast, so you have significantly more time to dodge that. 

So basicly is mesmer burst comes from "nothing", DE burst ramps up, so DE having more tools to stick around makes sense. 

Also your idea about the nuked Death's Retreat is way overkill. A slow casting, high initiative cost leap that doesn't leap. I mean come on, seriously?

Also I do play condi PU virtuoso. It's pretty viable, has a 2 buttons condi oneshot on top of decent pressure and survivability. If the enemy panics and starts spamming skills, 25 stacks of confusion really goes BRRRRRR. And I can just go back to stealth if the burst fails, stack blades and try again, the cooldowns are pretty failure friendly.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Bazsi.2734

[Terrorhuz.4695]

1 hour ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

I wonder how do you deal against LB Soulbeast and projectile in general 

I kill them. It's surprisingly simple when your target can't kitten around in stealth for 6 days straight and is actually weak to condies (not the fake "condi weakness" of a deadeye; a soulbeast REALLY has no condi cleanse).

[Caedmon.6798]

On 5/16/2022 at 9:32 PM, FarmBotXD.1430 said:

you know a spec is kitten design where one of its skills is a counter to a counter.
who thought stealth that removes revealed is a good idea lol

Who thought that tanky classes popping out every boon ingame while able to constantly heal and cleanse condis and doing proper damage ontop is a good idea.... LoL

Edited May 17, 2022 by Caedmon.6798

[Jumpel.3972]

17 hours ago, Terrorhuz.4695 said:

I kill them. It's surprisingly simple when your target can't kitten around in stealth for 6 days straight and is actually weak to condies (not the fake "condi weakness" of a deadeye; a soulbeast REALLY has no condi cleanse).

Ranger can kite better than DE and can stealth a litlte too but not as much as DE for sure but they don't need to "work on" to unleash their burst.

 

DE is for sure weak to condi. You take one condi bomb and you're dead if shadowstep is on CD or if it doesn't remove the damage condi.

I can't say for Soulbeast because I don't play it or play condi against them

[Curennos.9307]

34 minutes ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

Ranger can kite better than DE and can stealth a litlte too but not as much as DE for sure but they don't need to "work on" to unleash their burst.

 

DE is for sure weak to condi. You take one condi bomb and you're dead if shadowstep is on CD or if it doesn't remove the damage condi.

I can't say for Soulbeast because I don't play it or play condi against them

DE has a cleanse on Death's Retreat, Infiltrator's Strike return (admittedly most don't seem to run sword these days, but it has been a thing), and Hide in Shadows clears some condis. 

 

Sure, they're not a condi cleansing monster, and their cleanse does have some gaps (Hide in Shadows clears some damaging condis but not others, shadowstep only clears on the return step so if you need the cleanse you give up any distance gained), but I never felt 'weak' against condis when playing DE.

 

IIRC, Mercy was also primarily used to reset steal to get the interrupt, boonrip, boons, and (debatably, I guess) most importantly the quickness from Be quick or be killed. It isn't required tho and can feasibly be substituted out for cleanse signet.

 

Overall though, infiltrator's strike return into weapon swap w/cleanse sigil into retreat or whatever other cleanse buttons the DE would like to press goes further than one might think. Or just d/p stealthing up in general, as DE has decent regen in stealth. Being able to dodge, go into stealth immediately after a condi bomb and having a heal that provides a good base heal + regen + cleanse + stealth benefits (an extra layer of regen on top) means DE has a much easier time actually just waiting out condis, even if it can be considered somewhat lacking in cleanse compared to others.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Curennos.9307

[Jumpel.3972]

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

DE has a cleanse on Death's Retreat,

You shouldn't use DR as a condi cleanse. It's better to do 2 skirmmish shot to kill the target

 

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

IIRC, Mercy was also primarily used to reset steal to get the interrupt, boonrip, boons, and (debatably, I guess) most importantly the quickness from Be quick or be killed. It isn't required tho and can feasibly be substituted out for cleanse signet.

!!!!!!! a "free" steal to interupt/boonrip stab is a must have + to be able to switch target + int back. DON'T give up Mercy for signet of agility (condi clean) 

 

2 hours ago, Curennos.9307 said:

means DE has a much easier time actually just waiting out condis

That's the problem, if you get condi bomb your best chance is to stealth and go out of combat but at this point you are basically a deadweight for the team

[Curennos.9307]

29 minutes ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

You shouldn't use DR as a condi cleanse. It's better to do 2 skirmmish shot to kill the target

Yeah. You use it to run away after getting bombed and it happens to have a helpful cleanse on it. Skills do multiple things.

 

31 minutes ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

!!!!!!! a "free" steal to interupt/boonrip stab is a must have + to be able to switch target + int back. DON'T give up Mercy for signet of agility (condi clean)

I mean, yeah. But you can do it.

 

31 minutes ago, Jumpel.3972 said:

That's the problem, if you get condi bomb your best chance is to stealth and go out of combat but at this point you are basically a deadweight for the team

That's not in contention.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

DE's high ranged damage with high mobility and stealth spam is the worst design decision anet has made in the game.

Edited May 18, 2022 by Stand The Wall.6987

[ShionKreth.1542]

The GW2 pvp community thinks everything is toxic, and there is talk about how builds and entire approaches shouldn't be in the game every time I check this forum. People will not be satisfied until there's only a single archetype everyone plays, because anything that's not it is somehow detrimental to the game.

Edited May 19, 2022 by ShionKreth.1542

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

People tend to think Deadeye, stealth, and thief in general are stronger than they are--until they play it themselves and realize it's not all it's cracked up to be. They won't be used to how easy it is to be blown up coming from their tanky guardians and necros, the lack of passive defenses like periodic aegis, and lack of actual invulns like mesmers and eles. They'll be surprised how much they still get hit in stealth and how skilled opponents almost seem to have thermal vision as they chase, cleave, and throw AOEs that make them question whether they're actually invisible. They'll have a rude awakening when channeled skills like Rapid Fire follow them into stealth.

 

Coming from specs that have passive defenses, actual invulns, and the luxury of face tanking some damage, they'll quickly realize how thieves have only active defenses and reaction time to count on. That stealth is overrated and mainly only good for avoiding fights. Eventually, most will decide it's too much effort and go back to lower intensity things to play. And that's why thieves, especially Deadeyes, aren't especially common outside WvW roaming. Cracking the stealth code is pretty much a right of passage in competitive modes. Right there with learning how to pick out the real mesmer. It can feel miserable/broken/toxic at first. But once the learning curve is passed, it isn't so bad.

[Aodlop.1907]

On 5/19/2022 at 2:29 PM, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

People tend to think Deadeye, stealth, and thief in general are stronger than they are-

I didn't read your post past this point because, like many Deadeye advocates in this thread, you're assuming I complain about them being strong, when I'm complaining about the core design philosophy of the spec simply causing them to be frustrating and irritating to play against, regardless of their actual power level. 

[TrollingDemigod.3041]

9 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

I didn't read your post past this point because, like many Deadeye advocates in this thread, you're assuming I complain about them being strong, when I'm complaining about the core design philosophy of the spec simply causing them to be frustrating and irritating to play against, regardless of their actual power level. 

You may not be aware, but on these forums it doesn't matter if design is kitten toxic garbage like Mirage or Deadeye, what matters the most to these people is: "bUt HoW mAnY 'x' HaVe YoU sEeN iN mAtS?!?1?!?!?1/1?1/1?11?!?!1?!".