Allow Soulbeasts to swap Pets in combat again

[elo.9860]

I don't even understand why this change was made in the first place. Do we really have to dumb down a spec bc the bottom 1% of the playerbase is unable to press more than 2 buttons and GOD FORBID they have a negative experience. 

Imagine if an Elementalist had the pick an attunement pre fight and then be forced to stick with it for the entire duration of the fight. How ridiculous is that. Circumstances change during a fight and you might need a defensive pet insead of an offensive one and vice versa. 

Also, you need to leave Beasmode if you want to swap pets. There's a 10s CD on Beastmode, which means that there already IS a mechanic that prevents you from just perma swapping Beastmode skills.

Revert.

Thx.

Bye.

 

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

Sounds like your misunderstanding the reason for removing pet swap.

Intent for elite specs is that you have some kind of trade off for taking an elite compared to playing the base class. This is to prevent the elite spec from being just a Base Class Plus, where it can do everything the base class does plus more.

Soulbeast lost pet swap because otherwise it would just be base Ranger but even better with access to two pets on top of two different Beastmode forms. *Not* to dumb the spec down so more people can play it like you’re implying.

Same thing can apply to Druid. Yes the 20% pet nerf sucks for Druid, but otherwise it would just be Base Ranger in addition to Celestial Avatar (again, Base Class Plus).

[lysico.1297]

No.  If you need it explained as to why then you don’t play a ranger

[shadowpass.4236]

1 hour ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Sounds like your misunderstanding the reason for removing pet swap.

Intent for elite specs is that you have some kind of trade off for taking an elite compared to playing the base class. This is to prevent the elite spec from being just a Base Class Plus, where it can do everything the base class does plus more.

Soulbeast lost pet swap because otherwise it would just be base Ranger but even better with access to two pets on top of two different Beastmode forms. *Not* to dumb the spec down so more people can play it like you’re implying.

Same thing can apply to Druid. Yes the 20% pet nerf sucks for Druid, but otherwise it would just be Base Ranger in addition to Celestial Avatar (again, Base Class Plus).

 

Soulbeast was / is weaker than core ranger unless you merge with your pet.  When you merge to get beastmode skills and stats, you lose your pet's damage and skills.  The tradeoff was already there.  Currently, soulbeast has more than one tradeoff with the removal of in-combat pet swap.

[elo.9860]

1 hour ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Intent for elite specs is that you have some kind of trade off for taking an elite compared to playing the base class. This is to prevent the elite spec from being just a Base Class Plus, where it can do everything the base class does plus more.

Soulbeast lost pet swap because otherwise it would just be base Ranger but even better with access to two pets on top of two different Beastmode forms.

That kinda makes sense, but who even plays core ranger these days? Where is it viable? Does it outperform Elite Specs? Probably no, so you're already at a disadvantage if you don't have an Elite Spec unlocked regardless of this change. Sounds like a solution to a non existing problem. 

The only core specs that are still somewhat viable are Guard, Necro and Thief. That's 1/3 of all classes. 

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

While I understand the reasoning for the trade off, it's also a stupid trade off.

 

An easier trade off (that would also keep the complexity of soulbeast) would be 1. No pet heal on merge, 2. Revert pet swap changes, and 3. Increase the cooldown for pet swap (and maybe pet skill cooldowns). 30s switch, 75s revive, 10% increase to pet cooldowns, with fine tuning for the spec to keep it from being too OP. There's already separate skills for pet and soulbeast skills, too- soulbeast tail swipe is half as strong as an unmerged drake's, so this wouldn't have to affect the f1-f3 when merged.

 

I can't see this really affecting PvE that much- maybe some kind of boonbeast build might actually be viable (switching between a support pet for spiritual reprieve and a different pet for some utility, maybe versatile, or actually being able to use pet F2s that give boons without being terrible). PvP might get affected a bit, just because you could run, say, bird and gazelle for insane mobility, but willbender already had better mobility than a bird merged soulbeast so I doubt it's a problem for anet. WvW I don't see many issues with either, you only tend to use smokescale for damage/shadowstep and a bird for mobility, maybe it'd make getting away or chasing down easier but if a soulbeast REALLY wants to chase someone down they can with birds, so no real big changes there either.

[voltaicbore.8012]

24 minutes ago, Aqorex.3018 said:

but who even plays core ranger these days?

I do, in spvp. Valkyrie amulet core ranger on greatsword is a solid sidenoder, can easily reach the middle of plat1 with it. Of course 1550-1600 mmr means much less than it used to, but it's certainly a sign of viability imo.

If your standard for "viable" is closer to "meta pick" or "shows up in MATs,", then no, nobody plays core.

[enkeny.6937]

long time ago, there was a time when soulbeast could swat pets. 
I like the actual version better.

I didn't like the F3 -> F5 -> F2 -> F4 -> F2 -> F5 -> F3 rotation. 
the secound reason was: it made soulbeast very versatile. We had 2 weapon sets, 2 pets, 2 merged stance. lots of combinations. (and by the way I don't remember any build that really switched merged stances)

I don't play many PvP, but this problem is more relevant there. Sometimes, think as your opponents. 

And now soulbeast is balanced. (balance mean not over the rest, not below the rest, playable, useful, not getting kick before saying 'Hi!'....)
 

8 hours ago, shadowpass.4236 said:

 

Soulbeast was / is weaker than core ranger unless you merge with your pet.  When you merge to get beastmode skills and stats, you lose your pet's damage and skills.  The tradeoff was already there.  Currently, soulbeast has more than one tradeoff with the removal of in-combat pet swap.

1st while do you think it is weaker? 
2ns there was no trade-off. I think you missing a point. the trade off is not the loosing the pet for extra stats/skills. It is loosing pet swap to get an ability, that let you change your pet to stats/skills.
So that means, it is also a solution to trade your pets to stats/skills, you can keep the pet swap option, but you will merged permanently as long as you are soulbeast. I think there are many, who like this version, I'm not.

[shadowpass.4236]

54 minutes ago, enkeny.6937 said:

long time ago, there was a time when soulbeast could swat pets. 
I like the actual version better.

I didn't like the F3 -> F5 -> F2 -> F4 -> F2 -> F5 -> F3 rotation. 
the secound reason was: it made soulbeast very versatile. We had 2 weapon sets, 2 pets, 2 merged stance. lots of combinations. (and by the way I don't remember any build that really switched merged stances)

I don't play many PvP, but this problem is more relevant there. Sometimes, think as your opponents. 

And now soulbeast is balanced. (balance mean not over the rest, not below the rest, playable, useful, not getting kick before saying 'Hi!'....)
 

1st while do you think it is weaker? 
2ns there was no trade-off. I think you missing a point. the trade off is not the loosing the pet for extra stats/skills. It is loosing pet swap to get an ability, that let you change your pet to stats/skills.
So that means, it is also a solution to trade your pets to stats/skills, you can keep the pet swap option, but you will merged permanently as long as you are soulbeast. I think there are many, who like this version, I'm not.

If you never merged, soulbeast was (and is still) just a weaker version of core ranger for pvp.

There was already a tradeoff.  Soulbeast does not have ANY additional bonuses unless you merge with your pet.  You get the beastmode abilities and stats, in return, you lose the pet skills and pet damage.  That's a tradeoff right there.

You're saying losing pet swap to gain the ability to merge with your pet is the tradeoff but in reality all Anet did was remove 7 skills from a soulbeast's kit (3 beastmode skills, 4 pet skills).  Merging does not make up for that.

Edited May 22, 2022 by shadowpass.4236

[enkeny.6937]

4 hours ago, shadowpass.4236 said:

If you never merged, soulbeast was (and is still) just a weaker version of core ranger for pvp.

There was already a tradeoff.  Soulbeast does not have ANY additional bonuses unless you merge with your pet.  You get the beastmode abilities and stats, in return, you lose the pet skills and pet damage.  That's a tradeoff right there.

You're saying losing pet swap to gain the ability to merge with your pet is the tradeoff but in reality all Anet did was remove 7 skills from a soulbeast's kit (3 beastmode skills, 4 pet skills).  Merging does not make up for that.

Nice, you repeat yourself, but not answer why?

why is it weaker? 
Do soulbeast loose skills? increase cd? longer pet revive? loosing stats? your traits only work why merged? 

Getting dagger (mh), stanves already aditional bonuses. And I said having a choice is better, then not have it, or forced to choose it. 

"remove 7 skills from a soulbeast's kit" is not correct. change your view point from old soulbest - corrent soulbest to soulbest -core ranger. core ranger has 2x4 pet skill (Ai controlled) vs soulbeast has 7 skill.
or we can say 2x4 VS 2x7 

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 hours ago, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Sounds like your misunderstanding the reason for removing pet swap.

Intent for elite specs is that you have some kind of trade off for taking an elite compared to playing the base class. This is to prevent the elite spec from being just a Base Class Plus, where it can do everything the base class does plus more.

Soulbeast lost pet swap because otherwise it would just be base Ranger but even better with access to two pets on top of two different Beastmode forms. *Not* to dumb the spec down so more people can play it like you’re implying.

Same thing can apply to Druid. Yes the 20% pet nerf sucks for Druid, but otherwise it would just be Base Ranger in addition to Celestial Avatar (again, Base Class Plus).

 

So...Untamed? Untamed literally is Core+, but better because you can control all your pet skills, have much better defenses, have a whole new AoE CC weapon, and have a state switch on top of it.  

Only thing Core may have over it is a slight DPS increase from the third traitline, but by and large that won't matter.  

So, I agree with OP that the tradeoff thing is dumb.  Just make better roles; Core for Ranger will always be flawed as long as pets are, but you can easily make the elites into different roles: Druid more CC/Support, Soulbeast Power DPS, and Untamed Boon Rip / CC bruiser.

I believe OP is correct in that Soulbeast flexibility was ruined with the one pet only change.  90% of the time in any mode you are better off staying merged, so would be nice to have swap back then and no pet.  As only reason you are unmerging is to attempt to get an extra CC off or use smoke field for stealth.  It's just hokey, especially since there are three other specs that use the pet in some form.

  

[shadowpass.4236]

9 hours ago, enkeny.6937 said:

Nice, you repeat yourself, but not answer why?

why is it weaker? 
Do soulbeast loose skills? increase cd? longer pet revive? loosing stats? your traits only work why merged? 

Getting dagger (mh), stanves already aditional bonuses. And I said having a choice is better, then not have it, or forced to choose it. 

"remove 7 skills from a soulbeast's kit" is not correct. change your view point from old soulbest - corrent soulbest to soulbest -core ranger. core ranger has 2x4 pet skill (Ai controlled) vs soulbeast has 7 skill.
or we can say 2x4 VS 2x7 

Core ranger had a stronger and faster melee burst than soulbeast.  Even if the soulbeast merged with their pet, the burst was still lower, but the benefit was the added survivability of the beastmode skills.

Dagger mainhand is pretty mediocre in PvP.  There are better weapon options.

Why did you quote "remove 7 skills from a soulbeast's kit" then proceed to count how many skills a core ranger has in comparison to soulbeast??

Old soulbeast had 2x (4 pet skills + 3 beastmode skills) = 14 skills.

Current soulbeast has 1x (4 pet skills + 3 beastmode skills) = 7 skills.

14 - 7 = 7 skills lost from soulbeast's kit, exactly what I said.

You can't say "soulbeast-core ranger" because they will always have a different number of abilities.

Edited May 22, 2022 by shadowpass.4236

[Abyssisis.3971]

Yes, it would be nice if we got pet swap back, but it won’t happen, other classes spent many years whinging about soulbeasts not having a trade off coughholosmithcoughfirebrandcough And when anet pet classes start complaining, anet starts listening.

[enkeny.6937]

4 hours ago, shadowpass.4236 said:

Core ranger had a stronger and faster melee burst than soulbeast.  Even if the soulbeast merged with their pet, the burst was still lower, but the benefit was the added survivability of the beastmode skills.

Dagger mainhand is pretty mediocre in PvP.  There are better weapon options.

Why did you quote "remove 7 skills from a soulbeast's kit" then proceed to count how many skills a core ranger has in comparison to soulbeast??

Old soulbeast had 2x (4 pet skills + 3 beastmode skills) = 14 skills.

Current soulbeast has 1x (4 pet skills + 3 beastmode skills) = 7 skills.

14 - 7 = 7 skills lost from soulbeast's kit, exactly what I said.

You can't say "soulbeast-core ranger" because they will always have a different number of abilities.

Ok, I guess in PvP maybe has stronger and faster burst damage. I don't know why, based on numbers, it shouldn't be the case. not knowing pvp numbers, in pve I'm sure soul beast has higher burst damage. you have sic'em, Twice as Vicious, Furious Strength, Oppressive Superiority, Worldly Impact.
(the numbers are different in pvp so maybe there is what I missing. but what core trait line do you switch? )

But It may be more accurate if we compare this trait-line to another (core) trait-line. (again changing the point of view.)

I quoted the skill remove section, because Anet said: we remove pet-swap, because we felt soulbeast has no trad-off.
They felt the gap between a core trait-line and soulbeast trait line was too big =>need some kind of traid off (nerf in mechanics) 
Compering the old soulbest, that was for sure to be changed, to the new one has no reason. If the problem is the gap measure the gap between the new one and the goal.

The maths was correct, my problem was the point of view.

[enkeny.6937]

On 5/21/2022 at 4:45 PM, Aqorex.3018 said:

Imagine if an Elementalist had the pick an attunement pre fight and then be forced to stick with it for the entire duration of the fight. How ridiculous is that. Circumstances change during a fight and you might need a defensive pet insead of an offensive one and vice versa. 

Image it if they need to pick 2 attunements, but they get the weapon swap option. You forget the half of it 😉 

On 5/21/2022 at 4:45 PM, Aqorex.3018 said:

Also, you need to leave Beasmode if you want to swap pets. There's a 10s CD on Beastmode, which means that there already IS a mechanic that prevents you from just perma swapping Beastmode skills.

 yes, 10 sec.. Alive or dead. Pet swap has 20 sec or 60 sec cd. And there are many pets you can't mirror, so if it is died, wait 60 sec for using again. for SLB it is 5 sec.... (merge, unmerge)
I sense the perfect balance here.

[Levetty.1279]

On 5/21/2022 at 3:52 PM, AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

Sounds like your misunderstanding the reason for removing pet swap.

Intent for elite specs is that you have some kind of trade off for taking an elite compared to playing the base class. This is to prevent the elite spec from being just a Base Class Plus, where it can do everything the base class does plus more.

Soulbeast lost pet swap because otherwise it would just be base Ranger but even better with access to two pets on top of two different Beastmode forms. *Not* to dumb the spec down so more people can play it like you’re implying.

Same thing can apply to Druid. Yes the 20% pet nerf sucks for Druid, but otherwise it would just be Base Ranger in addition to Celestial Avatar (again, Base Class Plus).

What is Firebrand's trade off?

[enkeny.6937]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:19 AM, Levetty.1279 said:

What is Firebrand's trade off?

50+ % on virtue cd

[enkeny.6937]

On 5/22/2022 at 10:16 AM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

So...Untamed? Untamed literally is Core+, but better because you can control all your pet skills, have much better defenses, have a whole new AoE CC weapon, and have a state switch on top of it.  

Only thing Core may have over it is a slight DPS increase from the third traitline, but by and large that won't matter.  

So, I agree with OP that the tradeoff thing is dumb.  Just make better roles; Core for Ranger will always be flawed as long as pets are, but you can easily make the elites into different roles: Druid more CC/Support, Soulbeast Power DPS, and Untamed Boon Rip / CC bruiser.

I believe OP is correct in that Soulbeast flexibility was ruined with the one pet only change.  90% of the time in any mode you are better off staying merged, so would be nice to have swap back then and no pet.  As only reason you are unmerging is to attempt to get an extra CC off or use smoke field for stealth.  It's just hokey, especially since there are three other specs that use the pet in some form.

  

Because untamed pets don't auto casts, expect auto attack, it needs more apm to do the same thing. Sometimes it is better, sometimes not.

Ruining the flexibility of the soulbeast was better, then ruining the efficiency. And I think it is still the best ranger specialisation. Even if you have to trade your second pet for the merge form.

[Levetty.1279]

On 5/25/2022 at 11:45 AM, enkeny.6937 said:

50+ % on virtue cd

Imagine thinking this is an acceptable trade off for having 3 skills replaced with 15 better skills and access to a trait that keeps the passives when on CD. 

 

Its like some people want Guardian to dominate every mode.

[Popel.1468]

I guess best solution would be to allow SB swap pets, but their skills would have to share CD both: unmerged and merged 

Edited May 26, 2022 by Zerthi.5493
BS I mean SB

[RainbowTurtle.3542]

11 minutes ago, Zerthi.5493 said:

I guess best solution would be to allow SB swap pets, but their skills would have to share CD both: unmerged and merged 

The issue isn't the extra skills, it's that in pvp modes soulbeast could have infinite pets since merging both revives the pet and keeps the swap cooldown from becoming the 60 second cooldown.

 

Honestly just a longer set of cooldowns for the pets themselves (both swap and F2 skills) could be super helpful.

[Popel.1468]

ah my wrong... Obviously they couldn't have revive mechanic in exchange having swap. 

[AlexndrTheGreat.8310]

6 hours ago, Levetty.1279 said:

Imagine thinking this is an acceptable trade off for having 3 skills replaced with 15 better skills and access to a trait that keeps the passives when on CD. 

 

Its like some people want Guardian to dominate every mode

Sorry late on reply but yea, FB virtues are longer CD and you cannot access the base Guardian Virtues anymore because they are replaced with something else.

Really the end goal of a trade off that Anet is trying to implement is that you literally can’t do something that the base class can’t. Another distinct example is Engineer specs losing their Elite utility skill in place of either the Scrapper Gyro or Holosmith Holo mode. It just highlights that some trade offs are better / less costly than others which has been a major criticism for some classes such as Guardian and Engineer.

It was also pointed out early in Untamed’s reveal that they don’t *really* have a trade off. Only thing different is that your pet won’t auto cast some of their abilities, but to manually cast them yourself isnt really considered a trade off. Untamed is an elite that simply stacked more mechanics on top of the Base Ranger and nothing was actually taken away. I remember other people on the forums criticizing the Untamed design because of that.

Edited May 26, 2022 by AlexndrTheGreat.8310

[MedievalThings.5417]

One dodge mirage would like a word.

[Project exa.3204]

Honestly it was for the best. As much as I loved being able to completely change the way my build worked mid-combat, it was not necessary (as evidenced by SB still being strong). For PvP at least, the ability to basically change your build mid combat depending on what you're fighting was a huge advantage over core / druid, and many other classes.

-Eros of Ascalon