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If we are still going down the trade-offs route, which I assume Anet wants to do than taking stab away from a high mobility Guardian does sound like a fair trade off. I still think the WB should have been the "aegisless" Guardian spec and have its virtues self strip aegis in favor of it's mobility and adding in some unblockables to it's kit.

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Willbender gets a lot that Revenant used to have but was deemed too much for the profession, thus nerfed.

 

Stuff like ammo on F2 or slow/immob on sword 5 is what power creeps the elite so badly. It should be no exception if one cannot have it, the other shouldn't either, Anet is really bad at being consistent.

 

Clearing specific conditions on top of other 3 is 6 conditions possibly cleared per skill as an evade, too much for an ammo skill. 1 use is enough

 

I do not disagree with Crashing Courage being power crept af either, you look at it in comparison of any Courage on the profession and it has 0 compromises whatsoever, it in fact has more.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, JunkJunk.8971 said:

Fixed them but hard nerfs to f1 ~ f3.   Double the ⏱ 

While i really appreciate the time it took you to type this wouldnt that sent back wb back to where he comes from? Wouldnt it be a great idea to try something different? Like lets say 50% increase cd on f3 or no ammunition on f2?

Edited by Bale.3851
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Willbender only needs some damage nerfs and thats it. Core DPS guard can eat some of those nerfs too, guardian all around is in a very great spot.

If you remove its only source of stab, increase cooldowns etc, you just turn it back into the unplayable thing it was on release.

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12 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Willbender only needs some damage nerfs and thats it. Core DPS guard can eat some of those nerfs too, guardian all around is in a very great spot.

If you remove its only source of stab, increase cooldowns etc, you just turn it back into the unplayable thing it was on release.

 

Stab needs to go, the other stuff, meh.

They can slot a stab utility, 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Bazsi.2734 said:

Willbender only needs some damage nerfs and thats it. Core DPS guard can eat some of those nerfs too, guardian all around is in a very great spot.

If you remove its only source of stab, increase cooldowns etc, you just turn it back into the unplayable thing it was on release.

I'd argue Stability doesn't need to be removed but the CD needs to be looked at if they want to keep it. Core Guard has so much less and the CD is also much higher for a plain single Aegis on active. Even if core has the passive, Willbender gets a shadowstep which is a big deal.

Edited by Shao.7236
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2 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I'd argue Stability doesn't need to be removed but the CD needs to be looked at if they want to keep it. Core Guard has so much less and the CD is also much higher for a plain single Aegis on active. Even if core has the passive, Willbender gets a shadowstep which is a big deal.

Stab on core guard f3 is instant and has no requirements. Stab on willbender f3 is every 5 hits after f3 is actived and lasts 6 seconds.  There are trade-offs. 

 

I feel like most of these willbender complaints aren't understanding where the boons are actually coming from. 

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24 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Stab on core guard f3 is instant and has no requirements. Stab on willbender f3 is every 5 hits after f3 is actived and lasts 6 seconds.  There are trade-offs. 

 

I feel like most of these willbender complaints aren't understanding where the boons are actually coming from. 

But the stab from the trait is on activation, just like any other guard when you use it, the other stab comes from active attacks.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Indomitable_Courage

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

But the stab from the trait is on activation, just like any other guard when you use it, the other stab comes from active attacks.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Indomitable_Courage

Yea and that's exactly my point. People complain about things that aren't even from the willbender traitline. It's from virtues line but most comments rarely ever bring that up.

 

There's been like 3 posts at most who have suggested modifying how virtues traitline interacts with willbender (I'm one of the people who suggested making it so it doesn't give the boons to allies when using willbender).

Edited by Kuya.6495
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4 hours ago, Kuya.6495 said:

Stab on core guard f3 is instant and has no requirements. Stab on willbender f3 is every 5 hits after f3 is actived and lasts 6 seconds.  There are trade-offs. 

 

I feel like most of these willbender complaints aren't understanding where the boons are actually coming from. 

Core Guard has no stability at all by default, should you know that. Willbender gets possible Stability on top of Aegis and Shadowstep for a low CD that can be even lower. Hardly a trade off.

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10 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

Core Guard has no stability at all by default, should you know that. Willbender gets possible Stability on top of Aegis and Shadowstep for a low CD that can be even lower. Hardly a trade off.

Uh huh

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

45 seconds for Aegis with a passive every 20 seconds Vs 30 seconds for a shadowstep with "possible" Aegis and Stability. Uh huh.

Crashing courage does damage on top, isnt it?  Getting casually slapped by 3.5k on light armor.

Cant find on the wiki any info about it actually doing damage 🙈

Also the guy talking about "tradeoffs" when you get brand new powercrept virtues... does what previous but much better than previous ones. Talking about tradeoffs is ridiculous nonsense at this point. 

Most of specs dont even have one and espec are creating a core+++ but have an additional weapon avail/set of traits, heal, elite. People can stop pretending concept* of a tradeoff is actually exists. It was a weak excuse to overnuke certain specs, so people shut up about unfair/absurd treatment they have got.

Edited by semak.7481
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Posted (edited)
55 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

45 seconds for Aegis with a passive every 20 seconds Vs 30 seconds for a shadowstep with "possible" Aegis and Stability. Uh huh.

This is what's crazy to me.

 

The aegis and stability from f3 on willbender? It's been there from the start. Nobody cared before because willbenders weren't doing any damage and they couldn't stay on their targets until they got buffed this March. Even a cd reduction wouldn't have fixed the class without a damage buff. When willbender was revealed people were impressed with how much stab and aegis you could get when you cleaved multiple targets until most viewers understood that in spvp, you likely won't get the chance to cleave multiple targets like a dps golem.

In hindsight though, I guess a lot of players in pvp do act like dps golems. 

And you keep bringing up the shadowstep. The animation for the shadowstep couldn't be more telegraphed.  The telegraph on it is only beaten by heaven's palm which has you floating in the air even longer. 

Anyway the reason why I bolded "possible" is because you want to pretend that isn't a trade-off. Yes, not getting the boons from the f3 unless you hit something multiple times is a trade off vs getting the boons instantly regardless of whether you hit something or not. The only flaw here is that taking virtues negates this trade off by letting you get the boons without the need to go aggressive. That's where I would make the change.

This however would not stop the regular pvp forum dweller from getting blasted by a valor willbender, looking at its boon bar, noticing it has 5 stacks of stability, and then coming unto the forums to complain about the willbender being awash in boons because they ate the entire whirling wrath by backpeddling away from it after the wb had casted f3.

 

 

Edited by Kuya.6495
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35 minutes ago, Kuya.6495 said:

This is what's crazy to me.

 

The aegis and stability from f3 on willbender? It's been there from the start. Nobody cared before because willbenders weren't doing any damage and they couldn't stay on their targets until they got buffed this March. Even a cd reduction wouldn't have fixed the class without a damage buff. When willbender was revealed people were impressed with how much stab and aegis you could get when you cleaved multiple targets until most viewers understood that in spvp, you likely won't get the chance to cleave multiple targets like a dps golem.

In hindsight though, I guess a lot of players in pvp do act like dps golems. 

And you keep bringing up the shadowstep. The animation for the shadowstep couldn't be more telegraphed.  The telegraph on it is only beaten by heaven's palm which has you floating in the air even longer. 

Anyway the reason why I bolded "possible" is because you want to pretend that isn't a trade-off. Yes, not getting the boons from the f3 unless you hit something multiple times is a trade off vs getting the boons instantly regardless of whether you hit something or not. The only flaw here is that taking virtues negates this trade off by letting you get the boons without the need to go aggressive. That's where I would make the change.

This however would not stop the regular pvp forum dweller from getting blasted by a valor willbender, looking at its boon bar, noticing it has 5 stacks of stability, and then coming unto the forums to complain about the willbender being awash in boons because they ate the entire whirling wrath by backpeddling away from it after the wb had casted f3.

 

 

 

When I read the patch notes, it says that the devs wanted the willbender to be a very mobile dps spec, with ability to stay on targets 

Mission accomplished.

Now, without undoing the mobility buffs, they should remove the ability to inherit the stab, and possibly consider removing the stab altogether.

Mobility, teleports, blinds....sounds a hell of a lot like thief, possibly rev.

Niether one of those get free stab, and it makes sense then to remove their stab.

They can say mobile, but it opens up a lane for punishment without undoing the vision of mobile dps.

STAB from the trait and attack stab from the skill is what separates this from revaroos and thiefypoos 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Kuya.6495 said:

This is what's crazy to me.

 

The aegis and stability from f3 on willbender? It's been there from the start. Nobody cared before because willbenders weren't doing any damage and they couldn't stay on their targets until they got buffed this March. Even a cd reduction wouldn't have fixed the class without a damage buff. When willbender was revealed people were impressed with how much stab and aegis you could get when you cleaved multiple targets until most viewers understood that in spvp, you likely won't get the chance to cleave multiple targets like a dps golem.

In hindsight though, I guess a lot of players in pvp do act like dps golems. 

And you keep bringing up the shadowstep. The animation for the shadowstep couldn't be more telegraphed.  The telegraph on it is only beaten by heaven's palm which has you floating in the air even longer. 

Anyway the reason why I bolded "possible" is because you want to pretend that isn't a trade-off. Yes, not getting the boons from the f3 unless you hit something multiple times is a trade off vs getting the boons instantly regardless of whether you hit something or not. The only flaw here is that taking virtues negates this trade off by letting you get the boons without the need to go aggressive. That's where I would make the change.

This however would not stop the regular pvp forum dweller from getting blasted by a valor willbender, looking at its boon bar, noticing it has 5 stacks of stability, and then coming unto the forums to complain about the willbender being awash in boons because they ate the entire whirling wrath by backpeddling away from it after the wb had casted f3.

 

 

Just gonna say this, being telegraphed hardly matters. Players still find Phase Traversal overpowered even when the current nerfs though it's super telegraphed/easily countered and does not provide anything that could keep it from going without revs having to invest into other tactics to make it worthwhile. 

 

Core was already strong and still will be once all the power creep is gone and they haven't had the need to make anything so incredibly buffed to work. Sword 2 on Guard is already a powerful tool to kite around or chase with by default, adding up on WB newer utilities and traits to be a better Bruiser/+1 shouldn't be exempt of criticism. DH virtue CD's are incredibly high and still makes up for it, what stops WB from being the same after all the buffs? Nothing, it's overperforming by a large margin and carries a lot of mistakes users can do.

 

Virtues is always picked up no matter what because there's no reason to not improve built in utility in 99% of cases unless there's other niche synergy. Safe to assume that because of this, all WB's will have a Stunbreak Shadowstep with guaranteed Stability regardless and a evade that can possibly clear 6 conditions twice within 34 seconds with the rest of the already powerful core utility.

 

Personally after being hit for 7k x2 while immobilized therefore unable to evade, WB can do with some balancing for all the mentioned utilities. Esp when they can keep up twice as better than Revenant can right now, for mention Revenant used to be the standard for chasing and considered OP, to think that we have something that can do way better is a joke in plain sight.

Edited by Shao.7236
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Posted (edited)

Its incredible to me people still think willbender is the most busted spec in pvp, it needs nerfs i grant you that but Harbinger is without a doubt the most busted spec in pvp at the moment no question.

I am glad Anet ignores a lot of these suggestions for willbender nerfs since the majority of people want it butchered to the ground.

Edited by Poledra Val.1490
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

Its incredible to me people still think willbender is the most busted spec in pvp, it needs nerfs i grant you that but Harbinger is without a doubt the most busted spec in pvp at the moment no question.

I am glad Anet ignores a lot of these suggestions for willbender nerfs since the majority of people want it butchered to the ground.

Reads in mesmer voice: First time?

Edited by semak.7481
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3 hours ago, Poledra Val.1490 said:

Its incredible to me people still think willbender is the most busted spec in pvp, it needs nerfs i grant you that but Harbinger is without a doubt the most busted spec in pvp at the moment no question.

I am glad Anet ignores a lot of these suggestions for willbender nerfs since the majority of people want it butchered to the ground.

I don't think it is the most busted, I saw what obviously needs to go to keep it relatively how Anet intended: mobile dps.

They didn't want and unstoppable death machine, and be more susceptible to CC will curb the fotm players.

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Posted (edited)
43 minutes ago, Crab Fear.8623 said:

I don't think it is the most busted, I saw what obviously needs to go to keep it relatively how Anet intended: mobile dps.

They didn't want and unstoppable death machine, and be more susceptible to CC will curb the fotm players.

Im sorry but when a light armor class can face tank obscene amount of damage and dish out dps+condies+mass boons party wide and CC (which has no tell) then yeah the spec is broken in my opinion. Oh did i forget to mention the practicaly infinite amount of quickness?:) I am referring to Harbinger.

Yes Willy needs nerfs to.

Edited by Poledra Val.1490
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