I don't get it explain it to me

[God.2708]

Topic creator makes post about why two large groups won't engage each other.

Topic creator gets an accurate and meaningful response summed as: "Large forces have no incentive to engage each other except in certain circumstances"

Topic creator rants about boonballs and ignores people.

Frankly this just seems like trolling.

Edited May 29, 2022 by God.2708

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, God.2708 said:

Topic creator makes post about why two large groups won't engage each other.

Topic creator gets an accurate and meaningful response summed as: "Large forces have no incentive to engage each other except in certain circumstances"

Topic creator rants about boonballs and ignores people.

Frankly this just seems like trolling.

Topic creator also stated that their should be a mechanic in place to promote better 2v1, but I'm sure you just glossed over that God.

Topic creator also states that the stats are not important to their discussion which this other person was trying to take the rant into, so they got on the list.

It's ok God I know you're a boon ball supporter, you're also on my list.

I totally created a topic to troll and bait people into my ignore list, yeah totally, not because I'm ranting about the game mode and the problems I see, nope.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Xenesis.6389

[ArchonWing.9480]

50 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

ignore list

You know, I never realized there's an ignore list here. That's going to come in handy.

And no,  not you folks, dw.  xD

Edited May 29, 2022 by ArchonWing.9480

[God.2708]

50 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Topic creator also stated that their should be a mechanic in place to promote better 2v1, but I'm sure you just glossed over that God.

I mean, you answered your own question in the original post.

People play for rewards, the easiest rewards are going for the lowest hanging fruit, there's no incentive to win so ganging up on the leader is pointless.

What I don't understand is why all of peoples solutions to this involve things like 'Nuke players cooperating with each other out of existence by completely deleting boons so no one ever leaves spawn ever again (You don't make topics about not understanding why that is so...)' when you said the exact problem yourself: winning doesn't matter.

So you do understand. You just wanted to make a post ranting about blobs and providing solutions totally irrelevant to the problem you are stating.

Edited May 29, 2022 by God.2708

[subversiontwo.7501]

21 hours ago, Strider Pj.2193 said:

But incentivizing attacking the leader would make a lot of sense.

I'm just qouting this to chime in with @God.8649 here.

What I think goes amiss for people is that the system does have a built in incentive to attack the "winner".

The problems mostly stem from either inaccurately surmising who the winner is. The example given could be two strong squads bullying a weak squad at one time, but the weak squad is on a server that has PPT'ed all weekend, is ahead in score and is effectively "winning" whatever pointless win. They bully that server then and there to affect the 1-up, 1-down outcome. It may seem unfair but it is working as intended.

The other side of it is what isn't working as intended. If there is a system in which that very thing (winning, appealing to attack the would be winner) is the broken factor in the larger system, you don't solve the problem by ignoring the very problem and trying to build something else on the side (that could potentially be another problem). You solve it by accurately addressing the problem.

That is essentially what God is saying, the ladder is the intention, if the ladder worked as intended then the incentive to attack the climber would work as intended. If that is broken, people farm bags or just farm content. That has been described countless of times to people here. It usually works in the way where the strongest server attacks the second strongest server and the weakest server vulture them. Not exactly what the OP describes, but similar enough to add an objective dimension to a subjective rant about who the weakest is.

This, along with complaints about squads in general, has been explained countless of times but some people are just too close-minded to let it sink in and threads like this keep appearing complaining about the same things debunked and asking the same rhetorical questions answered. Such is the endless maelstrom of the Anet forums.

Edited May 29, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Hotride.2187]

What I've seen is 2 worlds coordinate to keep the remaining world down on the score, to ensure that world drops down a tier. So that the 2 worlds don't have to be matched up again with that world (e.g. cause they are bored, or cause that world doesn't do blob fights, etc.).

Probably not what happened in your case but who knows.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Hotride.2187

[Knighthonor.4061]

It happens because of the way the reward system works. Talking about participation system.  You need to stay active attacking constantly to keep tier 6 up. So easy targets allow that. Other forms of gameplay that contribute to the war, such as defensive building or scouting aren't rewarded participation,  which leads to people staying with the zerg

[Xenesis.6389]

1 hour ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

It happens because of the way the reward system works. Talking about participation system.  You need to stay active attacking constantly to keep tier 6 up. So easy targets allow that. Other forms of gameplay that contribute to the war, such as defensive building or scouting aren't rewarded participation,  which leads to people staying with the zerg

So two zergs stare at each other, attack roamers for participation instead of each other, where the participation would be way more bountiful? does that make sense?

 

4 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

What I've seen is 2 worlds coordinate to keep the remaining world down on the score, to ensure that world drops down a tier. So that the 2 worlds don't have to be matched up again with that world (e.g. cause they are bored, or cause that world doesn't do blob fights, etc.).

Probably not what happened in your case but who knows.

That only applies to T1.

 

9 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

You know, I never realized there's an ignore list here. That's going to come in handy.

And no,  not you folks, dw.  xD

It's the best feature of the new forums, have a dozen people on there by now.

 

[Loke.1429]

Offering possible reasons
1) Path of least resistance for better ppt
2) Path of least resistance for better karma / easy pips
3) One side of the two lost repeatedly and is avoiding the other
4) They both have a grudge against your server
5) Your server is strong in general, just not the time of day that you play
6) They both agreed to cooperate

etc.

Especially 1, 2, 4 and 5 are not problematic. If it is 3 this is unfortunate and showing incentives are not that great, and the underdog doesnt get any buff to bite back. 4 and 5 may be because your server is differently populated, more active during night than others and so on, which alliances hopefully will fix / make less different. 6) is not usually happening often, and lasting quite short - and starts for reasons like 1,2,3,4,5.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Loke.1429

[Aeolus.3615]

2 hours ago, Loke.1429 said:

Offering possible reasons
1) Path of least resistance for better ppt
2) Path of least resistance for better karma / easy pips
3) One side of the two lost repeatedly and is avoiding the other
4) They both have a grudge against your server
5) Your server is strong in general, just not the time of day that you play
6) They both agreed to cooperate

etc.

Especially 1, 2, 4 and 5 are not problematic. If it is 3 this is unfortunate and showing incentives are not that great, and the underdog doesnt get any buff to bite back. 4 and 5 may be because your server is differently populated, more active during night than others and so on, which alliances hopefully will fix / make less different. 6) is not usually happening often, and lasting quite short - and starts for reasons like 1,2,3,4,5.

in 1st place if  the game promotes ktrains vs empty server timezones, game is already  flawed at its core, its extremelly tricky to resolve due the lack of atention from dev's but 10 years have passed and links have made no better to the game at  the long run.

If the game cared about anything  else besides give the slowpokes brain players the EOTM to ktrain in the wvw maps and keep  them "active in game" point 1 and 2 should not even exist.

If groups want to take stuff they should need to put effort into it, theres no risk reward effect in game cause all u have to play is in a server that ktrains in your hour of interest, theres even groups changing servers to play in dead time of other servers to feel rewarded VS PvD, and thus will kinda stress up the players that will be constantly zerged just for the sake of the pvd.

Still the worst issue  of WvW is that was abandoned by developers long time ago, they might try to catch up but lamerwars is already the player mentality which is the hardest condition to cleanse.

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Aeolus.3615

[ASP.8093]

14 hours ago, Hotride.2187 said:

What I've seen is 2 worlds coordinate to keep the remaining world down on the score, to ensure that world drops down a tier. So that the 2 worlds don't have to be matched up again with that world (e.g. cause they are bored, or cause that world doesn't do blob fights, etc.).

Probably not what happened in your case but who knows.

People tried this back in the olden days of the Tournament, during the era of 24/7 PPT tryharding and "war councils" and stuff, and it really doesn't work very well. One or two commanders might keep it up but everyone else just ignores it, because it makes the game boring and prevents you from both seeking out fights and going after targets of opportunity.

[Mabi black.1824]

On 5/29/2022 at 3:28 AM, Xenesis.6389 said:

There needs to be bigger incentives to go after the winning side, the #2 of the match can't be going along with the #1 just because hey it doesn't matter we're playing for second so long as we don't kitten off the #1's to take out stuff!

EVERY SIDE SHOULD PLAY FOR FIRST PLACE AT ALL TIMES.

The winning side could be worth more points.

Their side could have no down state.

There could be a timer before release.

The bloodlust are worth nothing to them, or worth double to the 2nd and 3rd place teams. It would be 0 stats for them but they would hold it still so the other two don't get the bonuses.

Something, anything, and not more rewards to promote yet even more ktrain attitudes, otherwise we might as well skip world restructuring and just go back to eotm.

This company is so frustrating.

this is a good suggestion ; the problem is that you would have to fix a few pieces to make sure that the teams that clash are somehow similar so as to really compete with each other.

someone has suggested using a roadmap and I am beginning to believe that this is the only way out of this strange situation.

where the real problem is to create again the conditions for healthy competition.

we need a new day 1 a new beginning, delete the medal table cancel the ranking and let's start from scratch, second season ready to go.

someone should say ''I predict that alliance are ready for this day'' after which '' I plan to update these other 3 things by this other day '' and finally say '' we have decided that the new season will start with this date''

[Mike.3196]

On 5/28/2022 at 3:13 PM, Xenesis.6389 said:

Why does the two biggest forces on the map actively avoid each other, especially map q boon blobs, and then pick on the weakest side that obviously has no forces to even defend?

Do you do it to demoralize them? well congratulations you took out the side that had nothing to begin with, and will now will not even give you content for hours!

Are you really afraid to fight groups your own size?

Do you just enjoy beating up on pugs for scrap rewards? half of which are afk at spawn.

I don't get it, it's like no one likes a challenge anymore and everything is go for the easiest ktrain.

It's baffling to me how players play the game this way when "winning" is quite meaningless, running content off maps instead of waiting to get them on the map.

This game badly needs a mechanic to always pursue the winning side of the match, not the losing one.

Like seriously why even have a 3rd side for matches if you're just encouraging the winners/stackers/blobbers to use them as punching bags? 

Why is a game mode based on points to win encourages no competition, just pick on the weak, or even actively tank to avoid, what a terribad system.

No amount of population balance, or rewards, is going to break from that mentality, the mechanics of the game need to change, just like skirmish mode had to be put in to stop runaway scores.

We obviously need more boons for their precious "gvgers" and their map q boon balls.

It's cause people don't like hitting walls they like easy wins and gw2 changed to casual so that's why it's like that players just want easy bags they don't wanna learn or improve there self they wanna just w key and current meta enables and gives players cruches and more cruches

[Knighthonor.4061]

18 hours ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

So two zergs stare at each other, attack roamers for participation instead of each other, where the participation would be way more bountiful? does that make sense?

 

That only applies to T1.

 

It's the best feature of the new forums, have a dozen people on there by now.

 

Yes it makes lots of sense,  when you consider that you don't get participation for FIGHTING, but for Defeating enemies. So if your zero loses, you get little to nothing. Easy targets are guaranteed participation,  which is rewarded progression. 

[Xenesis.6389]

2 hours ago, Knighthonor.4061 said:

Yes it makes lots of sense,  when you consider that you don't get participation for FIGHTING, but for Defeating enemies. So if your zero loses, you get little to nothing. Easy targets are guaranteed participation,  which is rewarded progression. 

PPT is also easy participation, killing isn't the only thing to get it from, and groups that can't handle those bigger or more meta  filled groups, they already either shy away and do the ppt or leave the map, but this topic isn't about those groups.

The base of this topic is two "near equal" "organized" "meta" "groups" as in mostly a boon ball guild, staring at each other, both of which are capable of killing each other, but going after scraps, as in actively double teaming the weakest side at the moment, that are obviously smaller and unorganized and unable to put up a proper fight. 

The main problem I'm pointing out with this topic is the problem/motivation of the system of going after the weakest, pressure should always be placed on the ones in first place. Here's an example of where you see this working, but it's rare and should be for the entire match. When one side holds SMC until tier 3, you will see the other two sides work on breaking in, and eventually in some small way help hamper the holder from defending, whether that's camping out returning defenders so the other team caps SMC, or going after a meaty target on the holders side to draw players to defend there instead, so they have to choose between T3 tower/keep, or SMC. This type of focus is what should always be present in matches, not just SMC.

I don't believe the reason is participation which is quite easy for any zerg to maintain, or stats which play a part in fights sure but doesn't make 20 players be able to take on 40 players, not with the current state of zerg support, one rune set worth of stats doesn't make you 2x better/tougher than any enemy player, and we still have boon balls that easily break into t3 keeps and sit in them for 10-20mins farming, the stats and tactivators don't bother them.

Bottom line is I know the simple answer is it's just easier to do. There's a problem with the system, and once again people want to ignore it, and that's fine, not like anything would be changed anyways, it is what it is.

[Kozumi.5816]

On 5/29/2022 at 4:18 AM, hugeboss.5432 said:

It's good to see people still care about WvW, we just need anet to climb aboard and start focus caring for the best interest of the actual gamemode health again (and not economy reports). Build a fantastic game, focus developing great stuffs & keep it healthy for the communities, and the economy has a tendency to follow (not vice versa).

 

Easier to sit in your private Discord echochamber and design the game for your 5 gvg guilds.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Kozumi.5816