In a world at war, main characters need to die.

[Aodlop.1907]

Or else the threat that your world ending vilain is supposed to pose doesn't feel real.

 

You can't just kill faceless soldiers and expect us to feel like it's a big deal and we should be concerned. Characters we care about need to die.

Here's a simple truth: nothing makes war stories less engaging than plot armor.

Back when it was still a thing, Game of Thrones did just that by making you feel like the entire world was dangerous and every character could truly die at any moment, no matter how relevant and important to the story they currently appeared to be.

Heart of Thorns did things better in that regard, not just with the killing of important friendly characters, but also by doing disturbing stuff such as Faolain being turned into a monster.

 

Needless to say, from a story standpoing, "A Star to Guide Us" and "All or Nothing" were my favourite GW2 lore episodes that truly contributed to portray Kralkatorrik into a threatening and powerful vilain, and I was extremely disappointed with how cheap it felt when War Eternal undid the events of All or Nothing literally 3 minutes into the episode. If you can bring back dead main characters with the Dragon Balls, no death will ever have any impact anymore.

 

Don't be like World of Warcraft, where a massive dragon literally lands on the gates of Stormwind and yet nobody dies for the whole expansion.  

Edited June 13, 2022 by Aodlop.1907

[SinisterSlay.6973]

The commander did die.

That didn't stop us. Pretty sure as a group we have literally defeated death now.

[Danikat.8537]

I agree the developers should be willing to kill off any character if it's what would be best for the story. I don't agree that means major characters need to die on a regular basis for it to be a good story. If seemingly important characters die too often  it has the opposite effect and puts players off getting attached to anyone, it can even come full circle and get predictable if it's too frequent.

That was one of the main objections to the personal story - several characters who seemed like they were going to be a regular part of the story from that point on were killed off or otherwise disappeared not long after being introduced and it made it seem pointless for your character to build up a relationship with anyone, or for players to get attached to them, because they'll be gone before you know it.

Game of Thrones made it work (depending on who you ask) because they had a big cast, although it's a lot smaller than in the books, and as a TV show focused exclusively on story telling, so even characters who were killed off relatively early on got time for a story arc first. Even then they didn't actually kill major characters off that frequently, and certainly not all the ones some fans wanted them to get rid of.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Danikat.8537

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, SinisterSlay.6973 said:

The commander did die.

That didn't stop us. Pretty sure as a group we have literally defeated death now.

Yes. It's the last boss of raid wing 5.

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

No matter how many threads you start, they will not kill Taimi for you.

While we are at this topic again ... Guildwars 2 is officially rated PEGI 12. PEGI stands for Pan-European-Game-Information. It is a system to classify video-games for different age-groups. The PEGI has 5 age levels: 3, 7, 12, 16 and 18. Wikipedia:PEGI for more information, especially what you can expect in which level.

Taimi is very annoying for an adult-audience but fits perfectly into the early teenager idea of a cool character. Remember the TV shows when you grew up. She is quite the stereotype of the smart-person in a hero team. She is so well embedded into the story and plot, there is no way to make your wish come true. Get used to it ^^. 

[Taclism.2406]

Honestly I feel like gw2 is doing okay-ish on that side. Primordius and zhaitan defo are underwhelming compared to the other 3 (especially krak) ; but we also lost Tybalt, Belinda, Eir, Trahearne and Blish (at least he lives on as the best addon).

I wish either Rhyland survived or Braham died aswell because dragonstorms end feels VERY CONVENIENT / Its about time Taimi kittening dies of her illness ; other than that nothing stands out like plot armor imo

Edited June 13, 2022 by Taclism.2406

[Ariurotl.3718]

14 minutes ago, HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:

Taimi is very annoying for an adult-audience

No, Taimi is very annoying for a very specific portion of the audience irrespective of age. I'd wager that edgy and DARK teens want her to die more than well-adjusted adults do.

[Telgum.6071]

You just want to get rid of Taimi.

[Farohna.6247]

8 minutes ago, Ariurotl.3718 said:

No, Taimi is very annoying for a very specific portion of the audience irrespective of age. I'd wager that edgy and DARK teens want her to die more than well-adjusted adults do.

I feel like she's the little sister that annoys the snot out of the dark edgy teens, who wonder why mom likes her so much, while they roll their eyes.  Taimi isn't dying, move on people nothing to see here.  She can still go to her lab and hide out for a while, go bug Joon.

Also doesn't it become a bit of a predictable bore or lazy writing to constantly kill off characters, as much as not killing them does.  Oop another crisis, who's going to die today.  *Yawn*

[Aodlop.1907]

10 minutes ago, Telgum.6071 said:

You just want to get rid of Taimi.

True but for completely different reasons. I want Taimi dead because they introduced a terminal illness as something we must know about her, and this needs to pay off.

 

Any other major character can die and it'll be fine too. 

[KerryTT.4792]

Do I as the commander count in the Main Character death pool.  I tend to die a lot.... Just saying.

[Khisanth.2948]

I've had my knife ready for years.

[Belisaria.8136]

As mentioned by some here, plenty of important and long-standing characters have been killed, from early on in personal story up to no less recently than mid-IBS. The argument is not in good faith. A portion of the community's neverending hate obsession with Taimi is like an embarrassing pimple that will never go away, always betraying their immaturity.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

True but for completely different reasons. I want Taimi dead because they introduced a terminal illness as something we must know about her, and this needs to pay off.

 

Any other major character can die and it'll be fine too. 

On the other hand none of them needs to die and it'll still be fine. 🤷‍♂️ At this point you're clearly expecting it, so it's not like it will be some major surprise that'll somehow elevate the story.

Edited June 13, 2022 by Sobx.1758

[Super Hayes.6890]

I think Braham surviving his ordeal was not well received. Not because of liking or not liking his character, but because it's weird that he "walked away" from that. If not dead, I certainly didn't expect to find him concious after the whole Primordis's champion thing. I don't think the issue is them not killing off mains. It's them not putting real consequences on physically  and mentally traumatic stuff our allies go through.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Ariurotl.3718 said:

No, Taimi is very annoying for a very specific portion of the audience irrespective of age. I'd wager that edgy and DARK teens want her to die more than well-adjusted adults do.

That's because edgy and dark teens generally are more likely to want to see some character death. It's not taimi-specific, i bet the percentages of "i want X to die" for that group would be higher for any npc. Except maybe for dark and edgy ones, but we don't have many of those.

[Ray Koopa.2354]

3 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

I was extremely disappointed with how cheap it felt when War Eternal undid the events of All or Nothing literally 3 minutes into the episode.

That! How dare you remind me of this. Made me quit the game for 1 1/2 years and only SAB brought me back, though not regularly.

The story of EoD is just happy endings with weird (floppy-eared) plot twists. The killing of a totally unimportant character just (re)introduced for the story doesn't impress me - on top of this card having been played multiple times before. I expected someone to suffer from having read the storybook and knowing everything in advance her condition. Or a grumpy charr dieing of boredom due to staying home. Or a Queen-loving human for being long overdue since the second book. Or a norn insecure about his hairstyle for just being unlikable in general. Or a casino owning salad from betting his soul in a Moa race. Or some badly voiced dragon for just fulfilling the expansion pack's title's promise.

 Man. Instead I died over and over in the final meta. You're so mean, Anet. 😕

Okay, maybe not being fully serious on every death wish above. But can we get a story again that doesn't go full expected all the time from the beginning?

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Ray Koopa.2354

[Randulf.7614]

Game of Thrones took away any desire to invest in a character knowing anyone could be killed off on a whim of the writer. I’ve never been a fan of GoT and esp not killing off characters just to make a world believable. These are meant to be heroes in an over the top fantasy world. It’s quite ok for main characters to survive ridiculous odds.

Except Aurene. They can go full on red wedding on that one

[Khisanth.2948]

45 minutes ago, Belisaria.8136 said:

As mentioned by some here, plenty of important and long-standing characters have been killed, from early on in personal story up to no less recently than mid-IBS. The argument is not in good faith. A portion of the community's neverending hate obsession with Taimi is like an embarrassing pimple that will never go away, always betraying their immaturity.

I am not picky. A Braham is acceptable as well.

[Kalavier.1097]

2 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

True but for completely different reasons. I want Taimi dead because they introduced a terminal illness as something we must know about her, and this needs to pay off.

 

Any other major character can die and it'll be fine too. 

Besides that we've had people IRL get given 2 years to live and then they went and lived for 40+ years beyond that?

2 hours ago, Super Hayes.6890 said:

I think Braham surviving his ordeal was not well received. Not because of liking or not liking his character, but because it's weird that he "walked away" from that. If not dead, I certainly didn't expect to find him concious after the whole Primordis's champion thing. I don't think the issue is them not killing off mains. It's them not putting real consequences on physically  and mentally traumatic stuff our allies go through.

To be fair, Braham has basically been retired since that point recovering in Hoelbrek and processing everything that's happened. He may have physically walked it off (sorta) but hasn't been leaping back into action and heroism since.

2 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Game of Thrones took away any desire to invest in a character knowing anyone could be killed off on a whim of the writer. I’ve never been a fan of GoT and esp not killing off characters just to make a world believable. These are meant to be heroes in an over the top fantasy world. It’s quite ok for main characters to survive ridiculous odds.

 

GoT did many things decently from what I've heard, but the character death stuff has also been described as "Overdone"

Sure, it does relate to characters choices and actions, but what was the joke?

"I like this character, he seems interesting! Oh he's dead."

"This lady seems nice, I'm starting to enjoy her arc! Oh she just got murdered."

[Labjax.2465]

I disagree. I think that's a specific style/tone of storytelling, to be gritty and have main characters deaths, but it's not strictly necessary at all. In fact, I think it can sometimes be gratuitous and played out, to the point you're going, "Was this main cast of characters death really necessary or did they just want to pull your heartstrings and/or shock you?" (I've felt this way with at least one death in GW2)

And with a game of this kind, it's also just a logistical problem. The game is designed so it can go on as long as it's profitable. Too much killing off of main characters can lose interest of people invested in them, and add difficulties in replacing the lost characters (voice acting, writing, etc.).

You can show stakes just by introducing a normal person thoroughly enough and then having them die at the hand of the monster of the day. This game tends to use normal people as set pieces you rescue for karma though.

[mythical.6315]

They could always bring back Zojja during LS6 when it starts up next year and then kill her off.

[Astralporing.1957]

8 hours ago, Randulf.7614 said:

Game of Thrones took away any desire to invest in a character knowing anyone could be killed off on a whim of the writer.

To be fair, GoT was initially not made to be interesting and engaging, but for its author to make a point and counter a trope. That it actully succeeded was probably unintended (esp. looking at the author's increasing unwillingness to write each subsequent book in that series).

[mercury ranique.2170]

11 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

True but for completely different reasons. I want Taimi dead because they introduced a terminal illness as something we must know about her, and this needs to pay off.

 

Any other major character can die and it'll be fine too. 

And as quoted in your previous post, this point of view is rather sickening. Then you where unknowing, now it is just plain wrong to repeat it.

A terminal progressive illness does not mean someone has to die in a specific amount of time.
It is an illness cause it is makes her disabled and in pain.
It is terminal as it will once kill her (undetermined timeframe).

There is no correlation whatsoever that it has to happen in the time she is a heroin in the stories we are seeing.

As explained in the other thread. My mom has a terminal progressive illness for over 40 years. She will die one day cause of it and it cause her a lot of pain. I'm am very proud of how she stands and lives her life and I'm also proud for arenanet to show this side of illness. The way you keep putting it makes me sick.

As for the rest. There has been several major characters been killed both in GW1 and in GW2. Doing it too often also works counter-productive. It should come as a shock. otherwise we would expect it to happen.

Edited June 14, 2022 by mercury ranique.2170

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

19 hours ago, Aodlop.1907 said:

Needless to say, from a story standpoing, "A Star to Guide Us" and "All or Nothing" were my favourite GW2 lore episodes that truly contributed to portray Kralkatorrik into a threatening and powerful vilain, and I was extremely disappointed with how cheap it felt when War Eternal undid the events of All or Nothing literally 3 minutes into the episode.

I remember creating a dissapointment thread about all (f)or nothing with a bunch of people telling me to shut up because "muh mature writing"

All (f)or nothing and War Eternal are perfect example of AN writing themselves into corner - if you are doing 6 episode seasons, you simply do not try to pull "all hope for matter of reality to nt get devoured dies whatwedo" in episode 5.

And when this episode turned up and I played it I did say on these forums, that episode 6 will either revive aurene or we will have huge deus ex machina situation (both of them bad) due to how stakes went through the roof, urgency went through the roof, and how neither of these two got actually addressed through the fight of "let's steal the player success with a cutscene".

LWS4E5, was a badly written episode, and in my opinion, War Eternal didn't have much to work with to do any better than it did, and still fit into the 6 episode frame, but it could go much worse.

Also as for GoT reference - I would not call it "great" either - primarily due to the fact that Martin seems to love killing characters just for the "shock" of characters dying, and that is bad writing on it's own accord for multiple of reasons, which I will not quote in here due to sheer volume this post already has.

As for my position on the general sentiment of the OP - no, I do not agree that "in a world a war main characters have to die", killing off of main cast should be a writing tool reserved for rare and valuable moments when it serves the story best (A Star to Guide us, did it actually very well), and powerfull villains can be established in multiple ways, not just massacre of main cast characters.