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This just in: Vindicator still unkillable


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Bunk vindi doesn't die 1v1 but it doesn't kill anything at best it is just a neutral asset to a team that can only maintain a status quo as any moderate sustain build neutralizes it in a stalemates but at least it isn't a liability to randomly being killed though decapper builds will steal its node eventually. More offensive variants can get kills but also can be killed 1v1 so that balances out. Notice how bunk vindi was heavily used in the hardstuck conquest league tourney yet wasn't used much in the MAT a week later. The difference was hardstuck didn't allow spec stacking so a low risk low reward build like bunk vindi was a better option than running a build that had more potential reward but more risk of being obliterated by a harbinger that could afford the time go plus a sidenode. In mat spec stacking is allowed so you see double harb which allows them to be slightly higher risk but way higher impact as a sidenoder. Should harb/wb be nerfed completely out of the meta bunk vindi loses a lot of relevance as why would you run pure tank build that can't even force thieves off a node when you can run something like bladesworn/mechanist/various duelist ele builds/duelist ranger/more offensive vindi builds, etc. none of which really die 1v1 to anything but harb yet have much more impact via more damage, or at least decap potential. I predict bunk vindi would die off on its own because its so passive and generally low impact.

Edited by ArthurDent.9538
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1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Bunk vindi doesn't die 1v1 but it doesn't kill anything at best it is just a neutral asset to a team that can only maintain a status quo as any moderate sustain build neutralizes it in a stalemates but at least it isn't a liability to randomly being killed though decapper builds will steal its node eventually. More offensive variants can get kills but also can be killed 1v1 so that balances out. Notice how bunk vindi was heavily used in the hardstuck conquest league tourney yet wasn't used much in the MAT a week later. The difference was hardstuck didn't allow spec stacking so a low risk low reward build like bunk vindi was a better option than running a build that had more potential reward but more risk of being obliterated by a harbinger that could afford the time go plus a sidenode. In mat spec stacking is allowed so you see double harb which allows them to be slightly higher risk but way higher impact as a sidenoder. Should harb/wb be nerfed completely out of the meta bunk vindi loses a lot of relevance as why would you run pure tank build that can't even force thieves off a node when you can run something like bladesworn/mechanist/various duelist ele builds/duelist ranger/more offensive vindi builds, etc. none of which really die 1v1 to anything but harb yet have much more impact via more damage, or at least decap potential. I predict bunk vindi would die off on its own because its so passive and generally low impact.

Maybe but what about the "fun" factor? This is a game after all. It's not: one person has fun while other watches, kinda game

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Just now, Ovark.2514 said:

Maybe but what about the "fun" factor? This is a game after all. It's not: one person has fun while other watches, kinda game

Offensive vindi variants are subjectively extremely fun and reasonably balanced and killing off the bunker build (because lets be real that build is completely useless if it can't even survive 1v1) will inevitably hurt the dps/bruiser variants. And what is the point? Stalemate 1v1's have been the sidenode standard for a long time and basically no one plays bunk vindi outside of very specific situations at least on NA because it is just such low impact.

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7 minutes ago, Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

I don't know about that. It's actually incredibly oppressive to glass cannon specs.

Not the bunker build, only way you can die to that is if you have extremely low self healing and refuse to kite off node. And by that criteria, every single 1v1 build ever was oppressive to glass specs.

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3 hours ago, Ovark.2514 said:

Please remove all the stab and stunbreaks thanks

   I think that is a garbage spec and stopped playing it entirely two months ago at every game mode. But I'm not opposed to nerfing it further, specially the evade (should cost more endurance), the hammer (should have longer cast times and telegraphed animations) and Jalis (still has some uses with Renegade). In exchange Anet should also nerf again core Engie, jut for balance.

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I played several variants of Bunker Vindi in HS, your concerns are overly exaggerated. The build has no escape potential and is cemented into committing whatever it is involved with, just rotate. Fun factor is irrelevant when node bunking is literally a viable strategy for the gamemode.

 

It also dies to any "proper" condi pressure the moment you're 1vX ever since they nerfed Treesong, because Revenant as it is designed cannot multi-task instantly like other professions can because it's telegraphed, Vindicator is even more telegraphed at the cost of having more skills available.

Edited by Shao.7236
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no reason to play bunker vindi with gs buffs so idk why people r talking about bunker vindi, invo retri prot dodge is one of the best specs in the game rn, its versatility is crazy

it kills plenty of things, dies to nothing basically, and has insane value in 2v2s or outnumbered situations 

nerfing red side stunbreak would make it alot more killable, should prolly buff blue side stunbreak tho as thats such a bad skill somehow rn among other changes too

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16 hours ago, Shao.7236 said:

I played several variants of Bunker Vindi in HS, your concerns are overly exaggerated. The build has no escape potential and is cemented into committing whatever it is involved with, just rotate. Fun factor is irrelevant when node bunking is literally a viable strategy for the gamemode.

 

It also dies to any "proper" condi pressure the moment you're 1vX ever since they nerfed Treesong, because Revenant as it is designed cannot multi-task instantly like other professions can because it's telegraphed, Vindicator is even more telegraphed at the cost of having more skills available.

Most recent tournament showed harbinger consistently lose to vindicator. Perhaps condi virtuoso wins vs it but not sure virtuoso is worth taking just to

kill a more versatile bunker over and over.

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2 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

are there any other bunker side node build able to do what vindi does?

plenty do what it does in 1v1s, but nothing is as versatile as vindi, nothing as tanky does as much damage or is as good in tfs. the best comparison is vindi is very similar to a crossbetween harb and wb, its 2v2s are very harb esque with great nodeholding, kill potential, and survivability, and when it gets put in a tf its really just gonna run you down until you're dead like a wb would

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4 hours ago, Poelala.2830 said:

Most recent tournament showed harbinger consistently lose to vindicator. Perhaps condi virtuoso wins vs it but not sure virtuoso is worth taking just to

kill a more versatile bunker over and over.

In a 1v1 Bunker Vindi will always win and keep the node, in 1v2 it depends on coordination and what is being brought on the 1vX but it will not hold the node forever regardless, eventually forced to rotate if both camp the node until capped, which in retrospect this lost 1v2 is the best value Bunker Vindi can bring since it cannot rotate fast enough or want to escape without being chased and lose a lot of utility in the process, peak gameplay.

 

The "Assassin" equivalent of Vindi as Shiro/Alliance can beat anything given enough time but it will NOT hold a node against Harbinger without high risk of dying simply because of all the weakness pumped out and surely not easily go around 1v2'ing unless the duo that's fighting it is in favor of power only as damage on top of being negligent. Vindi got a lot of damage but it's extremely slow compared the output of playing S/S Shiro/Anything else.

 

I'm not gonna say that Alliances isn't overtuned, Luxon skills definitely didn't need to be buffed but I don't think the spec has that much tweaking left in it. Battle Dance was properly tweaked, I do believe Treesong needs to remove more conditions but do less healing while it's CD is appropriate. Definitely have to remove damage on Reaver's Rage but not touch the rest, that skill is really essential and it would castrate the spec hardcore like Jalis nerfs made Core Rev unnecessarily janky to play based on pixel precise angles and millisecond precise punishment on IR that is 90% RNG.

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1 hour ago, Shao.7236 said:

In a 1v1 Bunker Vindi will always win and keep the node, in 1v2 it depends on coordination and what is being brought on the 1vX but it will not hold the node forever regardless, eventually forced to rotate if both camp the node until capped, which in retrospect this lost 1v2 is the best value Bunker Vindi can bring since it cannot rotate fast enough or want to escape without being chased and lose a lot of utility in the process, peak gameplay.

 

The "Assassin" equivalent of Vindi as Shiro/Alliance can beat anything given enough time but it will NOT hold a node against Harbinger without high risk of dying simply because of all the weakness pumped out and surely not easily go around 1v2'ing unless the duo that's fighting it is in favor of power only as damage on top of being negligent. Vindi got a lot of damage but it's extremely slow compared the output of playing S/S Shiro/Anything else.

 

I'm not gonna say that Alliances isn't overtuned, Luxon skills definitely didn't need to be buffed but I don't think the spec has that much tweaking left in it. Battle Dance was properly tweaked, I do believe Treesong needs to remove more conditions but do less healing while it's CD is appropriate. Definitely have to remove damage on Reaver's Rage but not touch the rest, that skill is really essential and it would castrate the spec hardcore like Jalis nerfs made Core Rev unnecessarily janky to play based on pixel precise angles and millisecond precise punishment on IR that is 90% RNG.

Idk how this is a response to anything I said but yes I agree with you that vindicator is too overpowered but disagree with the idea it needs buffs.

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17 hours ago, Tescao.3042 said:

I said back in beta that Alliance could become very OP, so cooldowns are likely to shift.

 

You were right. I play a dps iteration of Vindi because I was so wowed when dueling against one (this was after the nerf)

 Yes the stab and stun breaks were a challenge but those are the products of a skillfull "chain" the Vindi executes. Alliance is integral for this chain but not necessary if one want to play a different style. 

 

Edited by greedywholesome.9081
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48 minutes ago, greedywholesome.9081 said:

 

You were right. I play a dps iteration of Vindi because I was so wowed when dueling against one (this was after the nerf)

 Yes the stab and stun breaks were a challenge but those are the products of a skillfull "chain" the Vindi executes. Alliance is integral for this chain but not necessary if one want to play a different style. 

 

When I tested it in beta, half the Alliance legend was better in performance than the whole core legend. Nerf condi cleanse deserved, now it is equal to Ventari condi cleanse, but most likely this is just the beginning.

Edited by Tescao.3042
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2 hours ago, Tescao.3042 said:

When I tested it in beta, half the Alliance legend was better in performance than the whole core legend. Nerf condi cleanse deserved, now it is equal to Ventari condi cleanse, but most likely this is just the beginning.

 

Its saving grace is the learning curve, not as easy to pick up and figure out. Hypothetically, say WB and Harb gets a hard nerf and provided that anet doesn't create a super OP broken spec with this update, there's a good chance that Vindi will be the next target of the nerf witchhunt. 

 

Like Harbinger and WB, it also has a counter 🙂

 

 

 

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On 6/15/2022 at 1:36 AM, Buran.3796 said:

   I think that is a garbage spec and stopped playing it entirely two months ago at every game mode. But I'm not opposed to nerfing it further, specially the evade (should cost more endurance), the hammer (should have longer cast times and telegraphed animations) and Jalis (still has some uses with Renegade). In exchange Anet should also nerf again core Engie, jut for balance.

Maybe annet should nerf harbinger or willbender? I don't see any problems with any rev build. They are very weak against condi, and many classes have so good condi build vs vindi

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