PPT vs GvG

[nullcron.2587]

On any given server there are players who just want to PPT or GvG and they are in conflict with each other, and that can get toxic.

It would be a good idea to create a battlefield map for GvG that will attract the GvG players so the PPT players can play the game as designed.

The fact that this has not been done yet makes me wonder if the people in charge are paying attention.

[Dawdler.8521]

Uggggggh... 

The reason WvW have been played for 10 years is because you can play it however you want. Yes there are PPTers. Yes there are GvGers. There are zerglings, there are roamers and everything in between. Sometimes people even like escorting dolyaks. All this combine into an active battlefield that scale up from smallscale to largescale to guild warfare. 

When you start splitting up modes and put people into boxes because "they only like doing X", that's when you kill the game. All you'd end up with is diluting the gameplay.

So the only thing I will say to you is this: stop trying to violate my gamemode.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

It would be a good idea to move the PPTers over to pve so the real wvwers can play the game as designed

[subversiontwo.7501]

On 6/18/2022 at 4:36 PM, nullcron.2587 said:

The fact that this has not been done yet makes me wonder if the people in charge are paying attention.

I wonder who is not paying attention? 🙃

WvW has almost always had some sort of arena to play GvG in. In vanilla we got Obsidian Sanctum. In HoT we used the Guild Halls. In PoF we used the EotM map and arena. Leading up to EoD the EotM arena received better functionality. The problem with all of these things is that none of them have ever been fully functional and that most of them have only been half-developed (as with many things WvW).

ArenaNet have always been reluctant to give us any of these things and when they finally have been convinced after long times of pushing and push back (OS, for example, was allegedly created after some unnamed director had ventured into WvW and told two guilds they were not allowed to GvG, then poodled), they have spent a short, small effort on throwing something in that they have not really iterated upon. Again, that is not just a GvG issue, it is a broader WvW issue that just reflects how they treat- and whatever attention this mode as a whole has been given over the past 10 years.

So what's my point? My point is, as often on these forums, you are both right and wrong. There have always been places to play, but there should also be a fully-functional place built, not just some half-cooked demo or beta. However, it should exist so players can run events, not to separate players and ruin the multitude of modes in a mode that WvW actually is all about, as Dawdler well put it. There is no need for the "vs" in this topic 🙂 .

Edited June 20, 2022 by subversiontwo.7501

[Luthan.5236]

I think the game reward system should be designed in a way that motivates players to play it the way it was supposed to play: Capturing, holding ... and actually defending (so they get upgraded and give more points per tick) structures.

Meaning: score for killing ... needs eventually to be removed completely. If they really care about the WvW and want to give meaning to all the updates they are planning. Guilds doing guild fights of course still can fight - when capturing or defending an objcective. (Which they actually plan to reward better if there are more pepole involved in the fight - according to latest news/post on the website.)

For "real" GvG there shoudl be different maps. I'd prefer if there was a PvP-like system (PvP-like - with same gear options everyone, not the PvE gear you usein WvW) with mid-sized team fights. Maps with special objectives and 10-20  vs. 10-20. This isn't offered by WvW where it is big  zerging and everyone could just join and some guilds might even be annoyed if a random player finds their hidden tag/zerg and runs allong ... getting killed helping the enemies to rally. 😄

(And actually the PvP also should remove the score for kills - at least in conquest. Offering other permanent death maches maps for people that like such stuff ....)

Edited June 24, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Luthan.5236 yeah like no. completely into the other direction. defending, okay. but defending by fighting. kills need a far higher value rather. and objective ticks should be lower instead

 

or the whole ppt system is just for nothing. these worthless points from masses of people just W keying to put full bombs on the siege, to then die or running away again? that's not sense making gameplay

 

"real gvg" is done anyways on maps that dont impact your ppt roleplaying dude, apparently u just missed that the 15v15s are fought in the EotM map

 

there's openfield gvg with non-set size and overall openfield fighting guilds... it would not make sense to have them go to other instances so yeah, idk what ur on about here

[Luthan.5236]

25 minutes ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

yeah like no. completely into the other direction. defending, okay. but defending by fighting. kills need a far higher value rather. and objective ticks should be lower instead

Then why not remove all the objectives at all? Just 1 big empty map where people can zerg each other? 😄 I mean even in th EotM they made objectives. If people want to just fight and prefer the death-match style - remove all sieges and objectives and stuff ... and let them fight. 50 vs. 50 death match maps or so.

I think the original intention of WvW (and of the devs) was to get people to capture and defen stuff. (That is why they gave higher points for higher tiers of the structures.) Just people noticed they can farm kills - to get more and quicker points. You either can remove the objective completely. Or an make them more worthwile.

And it will be "defending by fighting" automatically - the more important the objectives get. If you want to help your server/alliance to win the match then you have to defend. (And attack.) It should balance itself once an obcjective is more important.

The latest news/blog post on the website actually seems to show that they (ArenaNet) want people to fight over objectives ... by adjusting the normal (personal) reward structure - when more people are tagged while fighting at an objective vs. capping empty stuff. (Since it seems people to not really care about the server points and winning/losign there. Sometimes they lose on purpose to to go lower tier.)

And wtf ... this is no "role playing" - this is playing like it is meant to play? Or is a player in PvP that captures and defends the circle roleplayign as well? If he isn't death matching off-ponit? (Which people like you probably would prefer.) 😄 The structures/objectives are the main thing - otherwise they would have made empty maps. And they need to be the main thing (again) ... reward wise. Everything should be changed so people will play like intended. We already have enough other parts in the game where indended gameplay can be bypassed ... or played in other ways.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Luthan.5236

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

@Luthan.5236 ur like so late to the party.... u never heard of EotM and OS right. what u suggest does exist. it doesn't matter, nobody just wants to fight on the exact same terrain forever. the keeps and towers etc are a good playground, and they are factually worth nothing more than that

 

ppt is simply worthless. server-tiers are worthless as well.

 

in spvp they cap the things bc u get better rewards. wvw "defenders" are often just feeding and unless a group comes to save them, they lose the objective anyways

 

because wvw isn't built to be "fair" or "on even ground". it was actually more fair back then when i was a newbie, because with the pre feb20 damage, quite few people could bomb down way bigger groups by just beeing mechanically better. supports could kill bad dps players.

 

now? random dps can chase supports for minutes, u can at best cc them.

 

now? 5 hits to down something, 5 more to cleave. per target, roughly. not fun, slow and boring.

 

now? on equal skill level numbers decide. and anet makes it repeatingly harder to beat plain random numbers.

[RisingDaewn.8703]

Actually, you can generate alot of Points per kill to win skirmishes, rather than capping stuff as long as you defend T2-T3 structures rather than cap paper keeps over and over again,  outside of night and the early mornings in the EU.

Open field WvW guilds, particularly raid for two hours an evening on the borders or EBG 2-3 times a week only and many do open tag to find content against other similar sized groups if they can.  

PPT is really only necessary when you are trying to get better potential matchups or stay out of T5, but there are rarely queues in the first place due to Guilds raiding on the borders unless you have a stacked host and link combination.

GvG guilds generally spend all their time in EoTM scrimming and they aren't even that many these days anyway.

Edited July 7, 2022 by CrimsonNeonite.1048

[Gotejjeken.1267]

On 6/18/2022 at 3:49 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

It would be a good idea to move the PPTers over to pve so the real wvwers can play the game as designed

 

What part of WvW is designed around GvG? 

Oh that's right--none.  Only now with the alliances would GvG become of importance, but for the past decade it's server vs. server.

So it's a fallacy to say 'as designed' as none of it is designed deathmatch style.  The keeps, lords, sentries, random wildlife, skritt, jumping puzzles, vets...all of this is very PvE.  Even the balance closely mirrors PvE instead of sPvP.

That's not to say that pk's shouldn't reward points--they should, and more reward should be given for that.  Just not so much reward that the capture/hold aspect of WvW is lost because that's the whole point whether people want to admit that or not.  

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

gotej u fully miss any named point yet again

 

alliance guilds have nothing to do with 15v15s = gvg, openfield gvg guilds are those who will form up under the mantle of one bigger alliance guild, idk why this has to be told literally 200 times?

 

also no clue what ur mentioning, in like 5000+ wvw ranks i have not done a single jumping puzzle in wvw, outside of accident never fought those "skritt" u mention (as the mercs are extremly underleveled, they been never adapted to anything past core game...)

 

the ppt side of the game is very pvE, obviously. then again, the lords aren't very strong, so its just on the level of openworldboss meta stuff, so stuff that ppl can do without major coordination, without builds or any knowledge or skill required.

___
 

and yeah ppk does give some few points, but it never really is even remotely enough to carry the point scale. i watched us ticking last with a k/d of 8,0-11,0 on reset for example so yeah. vabbi is a good showcase of how small the point-worth of ppk actually is

[Gotejjeken.1267]

17 hours ago, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

gotej u fully miss any named point yet again

 

alliance guilds have nothing to do with 15v15s = gvg, openfield gvg guilds are those who will form up under the mantle of one bigger alliance guild, idk why this has to be told literally 200 times?

 

also no clue what ur mentioning, in like 5000+ wvw ranks i have not done a single jumping puzzle in wvw, outside of accident never fought those "skritt" u mention (as the mercs are extremly underleveled, they been never adapted to anything past core game...)

 

the ppt side of the game is very pvE, obviously. then again, the lords aren't very strong, so its just on the level of openworldboss meta stuff, so stuff that ppl can do without major coordination, without builds or any knowledge or skill required.

___
 

and yeah ppk does give some few points, but it never really is even remotely enough to carry the point scale. i watched us ticking last with a k/d of 8,0-11,0 on reset for example so yeah. vabbi is a good showcase of how small the point-worth of ppk actually is

 

I have no clue, but you end up agreeing with me later in your rant.  Ok...

[Mabi black.1824]

On 6/25/2022 at 3:30 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

ppt is simply worthless. server-tiers are worthless as well.

actually when you are not able to manage teams with the same potential or at least with a very similar potential, anything loses its meaning, ppt - ppk - ranking.you can really enjoy this mode during all those weeks that the servers are really similar and if they play it until the last day and last hour of the week. then invariably when you see those weeks and months that the enemy exceeds you by almost twice as much throughout the whole period .....................................practically................ who cares about your ppk or your ppt.

[enkidu.5937]

On 6/18/2022 at 4:36 PM, nullcron.2587 said:

the PPT players can play the game as designed

We (the WvW players) are waiting for this for years. Ok, most already gave up, because even after 10 years strange ppl still believe that PPT = Ktrain, lol its not, its fighting for objects. Ktraining T0 keeps doesnt give high PPT.  Almost every PvP team game follows this super simple concept, defend your base, capture the flag, whatever. Unfortunatelly, there are some strange ppl that still dont understand this, and they all gather at WvW cause they pretend that its a sandbox game 🤪 Ofc its not.

 

You can give them 10 GvG arenas, they will still come to WvW and block maps and server space. Cause they are simply too dumb to understand this super simple game design (and some simply dont care). Come on, its just PvP, try to support your team by capturing stuff, it gives warscore, makes your team win. Climb a tier, fight better teams etc. Not that hard to understand. 😏

 

So, imagine Anet now wants to solve this problem of "we do PPK because its a sandbox" with alliances. The Devs still dont understand that half of the playerbase is useless, cause they do GvG, zerg fights at spawn etc. while home hills falls cause the map is blocked by those "PPK'lers". And now imagine your team has a whole alliance with 500 of those PPK'lers . . . What the 😝 ! ! !

 

I guess someone has to come up with an idea other than "give em a fight arena". And lets be honest, most PPKlers dont want a challenge, they just want to loot newbs and feel great about that. 🙂

[enkidu.5937]

On 6/25/2022 at 8:53 AM, Luthan.5236 said:

"defending by fighting"

 

On 6/25/2022 at 8:53 AM, Luthan.5236 said:

The latest news/blog post on the website actually seems to show that they (ArenaNet) want people to fight over objectives

 

too complicated for most ppl as you can see in this thread:

for example this guy, he thinks that the NPCs !!! are supposed to defend his keeps 😝

 

On 7/7/2022 at 5:17 PM, kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

the ppt side of the game is very pvE, obviously. then again, the lords aren't very strong

 

[LetoII.3782]

GvG isnt a real gamr mode

[Stand The Wall.6987]

14 hours ago, LetoII.3782 said:

GvG isnt a real gamr mode

how dare you 😥